Topic: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?

[Kaneda]

I believe that demon is a catch-all term for those who serve Dracula as well as the Count himself. You could use monster, too, and that might be more accurate. But then ghosts aren't really monsters, either. Demon works because everyone under Dracula's command is demonic in origin. He's using his powers to create his own army.

That's my take.

[Kaneda]

Japan is under 1% Christian

That hasn't stopped them from referencing Christianity. A LOT. Which is kind of ironic when you consider that the game's religious content was censored for the other half of the world that has a great percentile of Christians.

But I do agree with respect to the word akuma being of the Japanese culture's definition. The title would be lost on the gamers, were it otherwise.

[Inccubus]

It makes you anti-Christ in the physical sense, and in LOI's context - willing to embrace the one's evil/ demonic nature. i.e. Kidnapping your best friend's fiance, knowing she'll be turned into a vampire and using the Crimson Stone to become lord of the vampires. Yes ....not demonic at all.

By physical sense do you mean 'by his actions'?
And no, it makes you evil, not 'anti-Christ'.
Those actions can be labeled as evil, but being evil does not make you demonic.
You're over simplifying these concepts.

Transforming into the Lord of the Vampires and turning into a bat is not demonic..

No. It isn't. It's presented in LoI as magic/alchemy.
And again you can label these things evil, but not necessarily demonic.

Then the series should be called Vampire Castle Dracula... No but you're right, Medusa, The Forgotten One, all the enemies the castle is crawling with, I'm sure they're all good people/ animals/ hybrids.

No. The demon part of the title is referencing the castle not it's master.
But besides that, it was clarified later in the series that by the time CV1 happens Dracula already has his demonic powers.

I'm not even going to comment about buffy and the fact you watch it.

*Watched* it. I saw the movie when I was a kid, and I watched the series when I was in high school.
That was a over a decade ago. I like the movie better than the show.

You might want to define what you consider demonic then, because it doesn't seem like it's much if anything.

By definition, in the context of Judeo-christian religion, a demon is a fallen angel.
Demons are spiritual entities that were never born in the physical universe who act with malicious intent towards humanity, on the orders of Lucifer, to spite God and prove humanity unworthy of his love.
In common speech, the word demonic is defined as descriptive of a thing or action being demon-like (evil).
Originally, it literally meant being influenced by demonic forces, which is not a common use any more.

The castle is demonic. The demons, imps, devils, etc that you fight in the castle are demonic.
Agni, Beelzebub, Beur, Andras, Malphas and Legion are actual demons named in ancient texts/the bible.
The Dark Lord is demonic. It just so happens that Dracula is also a vampire.
Just being a evil dick does not make you a demon.
Death isn't a demon.

Though it's never stated in this moment. It could be that the whip itself imbued with Sara's soul is reacting with rage toward the night.

That's what I'm saying.
I'm just also making the logical connection that a whip, even a magical is not sentient and non-sentient objects do not have emotions.
So if the emotion of rage is stated as the source of the whip's power and a magic whip doesn't have emotion then that emotion has to come from the soul bound to it.

I never said she wasn't human, I said this is not how her character was portrayed, nor how the manual describes her. She is described as pure.

I didn't say she wasn't human either.
I said that by you assuming that Sara doesn't feel hatred or rage because of her character bio you are making her one-dimensional.
You really think a young woman in love won't feel anger and hatred when she is ripped from everything she knows and turned into an inhuman creature that has to feed on human blood?

Even if true, this is what Rinaldo is saying, it doesn't resonate with what Sara says about wanting to help and have others avoid her fate. It could be that it simply harnessed any hatred she had inside her. I'd be interested to see what the Japanese text says.

It's not just what Rinaldo is saying, that is the incantation that is being applied.
You can even hear the change in his voice from the previous line he speak which is just him talking to Leon.
It doesn't have to resonate with Sara's desire to help prevent others from sharing her fate.
One does not have to do with the other and peoples words don't necessarily need to match their emotions in a 1:1 ratio.

I'd like to know if there are any differences from the Japanese dialogue, too.

Again, this is highlighting one emotion against the night. The power came from Sara's soul joining with the Whip of Alchemy. granted that the whip requires a tainted soul for its completion, but it didn't necessarily require Sara's soul. It required the tainted soul of someone who trusts the wielder of the Whip of Alchemy. One then has to wonder if the tainted soul's character has anything to do with this at all. It seems more like the Whip of Alchemy harnessing the soul and emphasising the one emotion for its completion rather than saying X is filled with hate because of Y - that's one dimensional.

It's not against the night.
Why are you applying one line that Leon says at the end of the game to anything that happened before?
Literally, the night is only mentioned like once in the entire game.
However, they talk a lot about the Vampire Killer's purpose and it's source of power in specific terms.

And of course they are highlighting that emotion. It's the emotion that is relevant to the creation of the Vampire Killer.
It is the story's explanation for why the whip which was intended to destroy vampires is able to harm anything associated with them even if they are of divine origin.
Sara's character isn't what is needed to give the Vampire Killer it's power.
It's clearly stated, though, that the emotions of the soul are.
But also take into consideration that person isn't just their character. Real people are dynamic.
For example, It's not in my character to hurt people. I find it distasteful, but under the right circumstances I'll put a bullet in a person's head if I feel threatened.

Having the magic use the tainted soul's hatred is one-dimensional to the spell and the whip, but those are inanimate things.
Inanimate things don't need to be more than one-dimensional. That's what being one-dimensional means.
That's why it's bad for characters in a story to be one-dimensional; it makes people seem more like things.
Sara is not one-dimensional BECAUSE of her normally pure character in contrast to being told that she had a hatred in her due to her circumstances.

I believe that demon is a catch-all term for those who serve Dracula as well as the Count himself. You could use monster, too, and that might be more accurate. But then ghosts aren't really monsters, either. Demon works because everyone under Dracula's command is demonic in origin. He's using his powers to create his own army.

That's my take.

It's not.
Monster is a catch all term.
A ghost is defined as the disembodied spirit of something that was once alive in a physical sense and can most definitely be called a monster, but not a demon.
The origins of most of the monsters in the castle are not all demonic. The demonic power of the castle does create many monsters, but that doesn't make them all demons.
A skeleton is a magically animated construct. Even the magic is granted by a demonic force the skeleton itself is not demonic in the strictest sense.

Japan is under 1% Christian, so I doubt Akuma is referring to "Demon"/"Devil" in a Biblical sense. I always thought it meant all-purpose evil/malevolent non-human/non-living beings.

Doesn't matter. I've spoken to many translators at ROMhacking.net that are fluent in Japanese and they all told me that in normal Japanese speech "akuma" is normally used to refer to the Christian Devil specifically.
(Much to my chagrin as I prefer the "Demon Castle Dracula" translation over "Devil Castle Dracula".)

[Kaneda]

Glad you're here to clear this all up for us.

[Nagumo]

Japan is under 1% Christian, so I doubt Akuma is referring to "Demon"/"Devil" in a Biblical sense. I always thought it meant all-purpose evil/malevolent non-human/non-living beings.

That's exactly what it means. The term pretty much must have originated from before Christianity was introduced in Japan because otherwise they would have used an European loanword for "devil". I'm pretty sure it's not exclusively used to say devil nowadays either, and I can even provide a Castlevania related example. In one of the novels, the blood of a vampire is refered to as "akuma no chi", which you could translate as "devil's blood". Basically, in all the cases where akuma doesn't specifally refers to a devil, it's often still translated like that anyway because no other English equivalent exists.       

[Kaneda]

So I was right, then. That's not me gloating, I'm just saying that this interpretation has support to back it up.

[Akumajou Jason XX]

You're all wrong.  The title, when literally translated, actually means "Joe Akuma Dracula", thereby signifying the following:

- Akuma from Street Fighter is Dracula
- His first name is Joe
- Street Fighter and Castlevania take place in the same universe

Jesus Christ.  It's all laid out so plainly for everyone to see.  How can there even be a debate?

[Inccubus]

That's exactly what it means. The term pretty much must have originated from before Christianity was introduced in Japan because otherwise they would have used an European loanword for "devil". I'm pretty sure it's not exclusively used to say devil nowadays either, and I can even provide a Castlevania related example. In one of the novels, the blood of a vampire is refered to as "akuma no chi", which you could translate as "devil's blood". Basically, in all the cases where akuma doesn't specifally refers to a devil, it's often still translated like that anyway because no other English equivalent exists.       

That is the literal meaning, yes. Originally it's one of the many variations of what western society calls a demon.
However, in much the same way that the original greek word, deimon, has nothing to do with fallen angels or the modern idea of a demon it is nonetheless used for that purpose now.

akuma 悪魔 【あくま】 (n) devil; demon; fiend; Satan; evil spirit.

aku 悪 【あく】 (n) (ant: 善) evil; wickedness; bad thing; bad person.

ma 魔 【ま】 (n) (1) demon; devil; evil spirit; evil influence. (2) (See 覗き魔) someone who (habitually) performs some (negative) act.

Akuma didn't originally mean the Christian Devil, but it is used that way now in modern Japanese language more often than not.
Debiru is also used, but it is far less common.
For just any old demon or evil spirit the kanji "ma" is can be used but akuma can also.
It's the same "ma" used in majin, which is most often used to describe magical beings such as Djinni or some types of Faeries.
It also happens to be the "ma" used in madou, mahou, & majutsu which each have slightly different connotations yet all mean magic.

But all the technicality in the world doesn't change how Japanese people use their language on a day to day basis.
That's why video games are localized rather than being literal translations among other things like differences in humor.
Also, we have to remember that Japanese is a highly contextual language and a kanji can be used in three consecutive sentences but mean entirely different things.

[SiFi270]

Whoops I gave this thread a two-star rating while struggling with my phone's touchscreen sorry guys.

[X]

Whoops I gave this thread a two-star rating while struggling with my phone's touchscreen sorry guys.

Maybe it was your subconscious thinking that it was so good it forced you to give it such a good rating 

[Dracula9]

I'd make the timeline not a total mess.

[Nagumo]

I forgot why exactly we were arguing about what akuma means, but I disagree, although what has been said isn't necessarily incorrect. I'm pretty sure the term can and still is used very loosely, case in point my example.

[Inccubus]

I'm just sayin' what people fluent in the language have told me.

[zangetsu468]

@Inccubus I did reply but my long ass post never made it.

I see you've done much research into the etymology of CV terminology.

However, the creatures in the Castle are mostly creatures of darkness who in some way are under the rule of Dracula, as far as I understand.

Are you saying for eg that you don't believe that say Medusa (a gorgon) is a lower tier creature than Dracula? One would assume there is a reason the monsters are all hanging about Dracula's Castle, and as such Dracula has dominion over these creatures.
This is apparent in AOS where Soma can control the souls of the creatures which inhabit the castle, even say a Zombie soldier who was there during the battle of 1999 but wouldn't neccesarily be a demon - from your perspective.

[Inccubus]

There's the thing; you said it yourself the creatures in the castle are MOSTLY of darkness.
Being "of darkness" doesn't equate to being  demonic any more than being of light.
Take the Amalaric Snipers which is a holy creature but is consistently referred to as a fallen angel.

Code: [Select]

Let me digress a moment to check on the description of this guy in the original release.

暴君アマラリックを射殺した神の射手

Bōkun amararikku o shasatsu shi ta kami no shashu

Google Translate: Archers of God who shot and killed tyrant [Amalaric]
So they aren't even fallen angels in the original.
Dracula gained dominion of an angelic creature.
So there you go even if only one creature in the place is specifically not a demon, then the idea that all the creatures are demonic has to get thrown out.
(Though, I have to wonder if in any of the other appearances of the Amalaric Sniper the descriptions were also fudged or if it was later retconned to be a fallen angel.)

As for Dracula's tier, he is the Dark Lord which is the top of the evil food chain.
So, no, I'm not saying any of the creatures are of a higher tier.
The games say that many of the creatures are summoned to the castle, but there are many other examples of creatures being corrupted by the castle's magic and some of the monsters being straight up constructs created with alchemy/magic.

AoS kind of confuses things a little when it comes to the created monsters because, for example, a magically animated corpse shouldn't have a soul at all, nor should the golems.
However, you have to take into account that part of Japanese culture is the idea of animism.
If you know anything about the Shinto religion then you'll be aware that in Shinto everything has a "soul". Buddhism also to some degree.
Even inanimate objects have a spirit.
That's where you get the legends of very old objects coming to life; the Tsukumogami.
The most popular example of which are the paper lantern ghost (Chōchin-obake) and the umbrella ghost (Kasa-obake).
So you could think of the souls in AoS more like essences than actual souls.

So to answer your question, no, I wouldn't consider a Zombie Soldier a demon in any sense.
Oh, and Medusa was a goddess that was cursed by one of the Olympian gods and subsequently killed.
(TRIVIA - Medusa was the only one of the three gorgon sisters that wasn't immortal. Also, besides Euryale & Stheno, Echidna, the 3 Graeae and Ladon are all Medusa's siblings.)
So I have to assume that her spirit was summoned to the castle.
Who knows, since they don't really ever tell you anything about what Dracula's soul is up to when he goes (presumably) back to hell after each defeat he may just have run into Medusa and 'recruited' her.