Topic: I think I know why the powers of good weaken every 100 years

[zangetsu468]

Well for one, Dracula did not resurrect by Simon reuniting his body parts, but by an occult sixth part: His fang.

Where exactly is the source for this information? I don't recall this being in the game.

EDIT: According to the guidebook to Simon's Quest, Dracula's Fang is a relic Simon Belmont never knew about. It was kept in the room where Dracula was resurrected in and it became Dracula's Ghost's only weapon against him in that game. (Castlevania Wiki)

Is this what you're talking about? That's weak. It's stated that it's a weapon used by Dracula against Simon if it's even that, not a body part Simon uses to resurrect him.
Furthermore we see 5 body parts assemble in-game and so far as I'm aware this has never been retconned.

Now for the rest, I'm not exact sure how is this different. I mean, Simon did have a curse place upon him, but he didn't have the negative emotions Maxim had.

Maybe not, but was it not Dracula's curse in the first instance that augments the evil within the hearts of those who dwell in Wallachia to bring about his resurrection. Why else would Maxime feel drawn to the remains/ Castle etc, otherwise he could have just killed Lydie or killed himself if he wans't already strong enough to kill Juste.
This whole situation stinks of Dracula using a pawn (who is bathing in negative emotions) for his resurrection.

The fact that they reference each other doesn't mean they are the exact same situation, as I see it. Simon and Maxim gathered the body parts with different motivations (even if they both wanted to destroy them at the end).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywMjemCKip0 @ 1:24 despite the fact the remains explicitly are in possession of Juste and not Maxime.

Also, there was not a castle made out of Maxim's mind in CVII. There was no castle at all..

Untrue, the area where Simon gathers the 5 remains of Dracula are the ruins of the original Castlevania.

Another point is that Maxim is not a Belmont. And we learn in Ecclesia that Belmonts are naturally impervious to Dracula's influence, be it from himself or some manifestation of his power, such as his remains.

Despite the fact Dracula put a curse on Simon, which will kill him if he doesn't defeat Dracula.

So, even though Simon was not influenced, Maxim could very well have had his feeling amplified by the remains' power.

Influence by Dracula's remains = influence by Dracula

Also, Maxim mentions that he found the remains as if "he were being guided by a higher power." I'm almost 100% sure this was the remains' influence preying on his feelings.

Dracula's remains = Dracula

Dracula was using Maxime to resurrect himself, it's quite simple.

It is an official timeline released by IGA. This is the first timeline that removed Legends officially from the canon.

Noted but Iga made a crack once about Alucard defeating Dracula rather than Quincy Morris. I'm more inclined to believe in game canon.

They didn't leave out that it is a "fake castle." It simply is not the same castle. Even if it's claimed to be a "replica" in the game, it is not actually trying to pose as the real deal. Everyone knows full well it is nothing but the cult's base.

DOS aside, If Hod's castle is not Castlevania then why is Death there? Why does he specifically tell Juste about the Castle and how it has two layers? Death reports to Dracula since LOI.

Also the Castle has Simon Wraiths, specifically Simon from CV1. What is CV1 Simon doing in a Castle created from Maxime's mind?

Also, the translators are japanese. This site belongs to Koutei, who is fluent in japanese.

Seriously quite bad typo's in this translation.

[theplottwist]

Dude, no. You got some things I said wrong.

Where exactly is the source for this information? I don't recall this being in the game.

Simon's Quest guidebook by Takarajimasha. Plus, inside the game's graphics there is a sprite for a sixth remain that got removed from the final game, showing that it was indeed in the team's plans.

Maybe not, but was it not Dracula's curse in the first instance that augments the evil within the hearts of those who dwell in Wallachia to bring about his resurrection. Why else would Maxime feel drawn to the remains/ Castle etc, otherwise he could have just killed Lydie or killed himself if he wans't already strong enough to kill Juste. It's obvious he was drawn to 'power', but this whole situation stinks of Dracula using a pawn for his resurrection.

Again, Maxim mentions he was guided by a "higher power." Surely this stinks of Dracula's influence, but his power is great enough to do it without his own personal aid or will. It "wills" nothing, it just corrupts people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywMjemCKip0 @ 1:24 despite the fact the remains explicitly are in possession of Juste and not Maxime.

Maxim gathered the body parts BEFORE Juste, dude. This is what I meant. The evil spirit was born before Juste laid his hands on the body parts.

Untrue, the area where Simon gathers the 5 remains of Dracula are the ruins of the original Castlevania.

Also another misunterstanding of what I said, but I may have expressed myself badly here. The ruins belong to Dracula's castle, but the castle doesn't play any significant role in the game beyond "burn here the remains." It's in ruins. It doesn't even have monsters in it.

My line was meant to demonstrate that the castle(s) in HoD is a MUCH different situation to what happened in CVII.

Despite the fact Dracula put a curse on Simon, which will kill him if he doesn't defeat Dracula.

But was Simon influenced? No? Then the point stands. In fact, Simon was instructed by a ghost woman/gypsy in a graveyard to burn the remains because he had no clue about what to do.

Influence by Dracula's remains = influence by Dracula

Not necessarily. The remains may be Dracula's, but the dark power contained in them doesn't mean it contains Dracula's agency or will, as I said before. And even if it's Dracula's influence (which, btw, I agree with) the power may give rise to something completely different altogether. Which seems pretty likely to be the case of HoD.

Again: I believe that the dark power "wills" nothing. It simply corrupts. Those corrupted with Dracula in mind will seek his revival, while others will simply cause chaos and destruction through other means.
 

Dracula's remains = Dracula

Dracula was using Maxime to resurrect himself, it's quite simple.

Simon Wraith = Simon

That's how you sound.

And again: The evil power may corrupt people due to being Dracula's, but this doesn't mean it has Dracula's agency. The ones corrupted by it may seek Dracula's revival, true, but this was NOT Maxim's intention even if he was influenced.

Noted but Iga made a crack once about Alucard defeating Dracula rather than Quincy Morris. I'm more inclined to believe in game canon.

There is dialogue in-game making it clear as day that Dracula Wraith is not Dracula himself, and you're denying it, dude. And if you settle only for in-game canon and ignore other official sources, you're wrong. Simple as that. These sources are meant for this exact kind of thing: Explain stuff that was not explained in the game.

Also, I'm aware people say IGA said something like that, yet I never found the citation. If you can provide me, it can actually solve a certain knot I'm trying to untie with Umbra.

DOS aside, If Hod's castle is not Castlevania then why is Death there? Why does he specifically tell Juste about the Castle and how it has two layers? Death reports to Dracula since LOI.

He does mention that the castle is incomplete in the dialogue, and that his mission is to make it complete:

Death   At present, the castle is in a transient state, divided, incomplete.
   This won't suffice. These two castles must be fully united.

Perhaps while it's "incomplete" it's not the real Dracula's castle (maybe explaining the "(fake)" thing), thus Death plans to unite the physical one with the one created by Maxim's mind to make it full. I'm not sure of this, however.

Also the Castle has Simon Wraiths, specifically Simon from CV1. What is CV1 Simon doing in a Castle created from Maxime's mind?

What is Crocomire's skull doing there, too?

Dude, Maxim is aware of what Simon Belmont did. If (IF) the mind castle draws from Maxim's mind, it'd not be a stretch to imagine that Simon's Wraith was built from his memory of Simon's stories. But this is a big IF here.

But if this explanation doesn't suffice, well... Fanservice is the other option.

[Inccubus]

Fan service and a nod to both CV3 and ultimately Getsu Fuma Den where the "whip skeleton" originates from and where it is referred to officially as Simon Wraith.

How official is that guidebook you mention, Plot? I've heard mention of it before, but besides being ok'd by Konami corporate did the actual members of the team that made CV2 have any involvement?

[theplottwist]

How official is that guidebook you mention, Plot? I've heard mention of it before, but besides being ok'd by Konami corporate did the actual members of the team that made CV2 have any involvement?

I don't know if there was anyone from the story department involved in it, but it surely was licensed by Konami as official.

I mentioned the removed fang in the game's graphics because this lends some credence to it's existence somewhere in the development. So it does not like Takarajimasha pulled it from their asses.

And ALSO, Dracula attacks using bloody fangs. The guidebook mentions that too, saying that this is the only weapon Dracula has since he resurrected from it. Just pause the video and see for yourselves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3uN4d9klmI

So, since there is no word saying otherwise, I (personally) believe that this is the most official response we will get. Plus the fang returns in Harmony as part of the six relics. So it does exist as part of the lore, retroactively speaking.

EDIT: Speaking of that, it'd be really nice if someone could translate it. Here it is:

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/guide-fridayspecial.htm

I could try since I'm trying to learn japanese to stop nagging Nagumo and Shiroi, but holy crap I'm getting nowhere with it.

[zangetsu468]

Dude, no. You got some things I said wrong.

Simon's Quest guidebook by Takarajimasha. Plus, inside the game's graphics there is a sprite for a sixth remain that got removed from the final game, showing that it was indeed in the team's plans.

Exactly, it was removed. My point stands.
The guide states it's Dracula's weapon, it never makes mention of Simon using it and it's not the sole purpose for his resurrection. I believe you're taking poetic licence with this one artifact which was intentionally deleted from a game.

Again, Maxim mentions he was guided by a "higher power." Surely this stinks of Dracula's influence, but his power is great enough to do it without his own personal aid or will. It "wills" nothing, it just corrupts people.

So what is Maxim trying to accomplish then?

Maxim gathered the body parts BEFORE Juste, dude. This is what I meant. The evil spirit was born before Juste laid his hands on the body parts.

So why were the body parts spread all over the non-existent Castle, for what purpose if not to resurrect Dracula?

Also another misunterstanding of what I said, but I may have expressed myself badly here. The ruins belong to Dracula's castle, but the castle doesn't play any significant role in the game beyond "burn here the remains." It's in ruins. It doesn't even have monsters in it.

It does play a significant role. Chaos is the source of Dracula's power and it's impetus in the physical realm manifests from within Castlevania. That's why collecting his body parts and burning them wouldn't have worked anywhere else.

My line was meant to demonstrate that the castle(s) in HoD is a MUCH different situation to what happened in CVII.

It is different, I'm just stating it still played a role in CVII and was present.

But was Simon influenced? No? Then the point stands. In fact, Simon was instructed by a ghost woman/gypsy in a graveyard to burn the remains because he had no clue about what to do.

He was not influenced, but he was also not impervious to Dracula's power/ magic, so the point (aside from corruption/ influence) doesn't

Not necessarily. The remains may be Dracula's, but the dark power contained in them doesn't mean it contains Dracula's agency or will, as I said before. And even if it's Dracula's influence (which, btw, I agree with) the power may give rise to something completely different altogether. Which seems pretty likely to be the case of HoD.

Anything is possible, I played HOD a long time ago, to me it seemed as if Dracula's resurrection was always the focus of Maxim, albeit even indirectly.

Again: I believe that the dark power "wills" nothing. It simply corrupts. Those corrupted with Dracula in mind will seek his revival, while others will simply cause chaos and destruction through other means.

I guess it can manifest as other things, however Dracula, Dracula Wraith etc still returns. If this is as you were stating occuring via Maxim and it wan't Dracula per se, why did the Dracula wraith (Maxim) have no memory of the Belmonts? Yet as you've stated the Castle manifested from Maxim's mind still has Simon Wraiths? The two ideas conflict imo.
 

Simon Wraith = Simon

That's how you sound.

Mate, come on now, we're not 5 years old.

And again: The evil power may corrupt people due to being Dracula's, but this doesn't mean it has Dracula's agency. The ones corrupted by it may seek Dracula's revival, true, but this was NOT Maxim's intention even if he was influenced.

Then why was Maxim 'co-erced' into gathering the remains? If the remains' agency had nothing to do with Dracula's agenda to be revived why did this happen, and why did the Castle manifest? SOTN shows us that even prior to Dracula's resurrection (when Richter was technically the first Castle's Lord) that a Castle can manifest. The two castles still comprised the real Castlevania. SOTN's castle had Trevor, Grant and Sypha Wraiths, HOD's has Simon Wraiths, imo it makes sense to be the real Castle - even if in incomplete form.

There is dialogue in-game making it clear as day that Dracula Wraith is not Dracula himself, and you're denying it, dude.

I'm not denying anything rather asking (as I did above) if Dracula's Wraith is not Dracula, and it has come about via Maxim (as you state the castle has - which contains memories of Simon Belmont) why does it not remember the Belmonts?

And if you settle only for in-game canon and ignore other official sources, you're wrong. Simple as that. These sources are meant for this exact kind of thing: Explain stuff that was not explained in the game.

I'm open to other sources, I just don't believe randoms on the internet who take those sources and stretch them into fanfiction. See my first point. If you ignore that then so be it, I won't hold it against you.

Also, I'm aware people say IGA said something like that, yet I never found the citation. If you can provide me, it can actually solve a certain knot I'm trying to untie with Umbra.

I watched a translated video or interview. I'll try and find the link a bit later.

He does mention that the castle is incomplete in the dialogue, and that his mission is to make it complete:

Death   At present, the castle is in a transient state, divided, incomplete.
   This won't suffice. These two castles must be fully united.

Perhaps while it's "incomplete" it's not the real Dracula's castle (maybe explaining the "(fake)" thing), thus Death plans to unite the physical one with the one created by Maxim's mind to make it full. I'm not sure of this, however.

I think the word "fake" seems like a bad translation. If they had used the term ethereal or astral it would make more sense to me. I still believe it's the real Castlevania.

What is Crocomire's skull doing there, too?

No idea, maybe it's supposed to be Slogra's

Dude, Maxim is aware of what Simon Belmont did. If (IF) the mind castle draws from Maxim's mind, it'd not be a stretch to imagine that Simon's Wraith was built from his memory of Simon's stories. But this is a big IF here.

I won't disagree with the IF factor.

I don't know if there was anyone from the story department involved in it, but it surely was licensed by Konami as official.

I mentioned the removed fang in the game's graphics because this lends some credence to it's existence somewhere in the development. So it does not like Takarajimasha pulled it from their asses.

And ALSO, Dracula attacks using bloody fangs. The guidebook mentions that too, saying that this is the only weapon Dracula has since he resurrected from it. Just pause the video and see for yourselves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3uN4d9klmI

So, since there is no word saying otherwise, I (personally) believe that this is the most official response we will get. Plus the fang returns in Harmony as part of the six relics. So it does exist as part of the lore, retroactively speaking.

A typical example which parallels this is the official NOA guides released for the two original Zelda games; LOZ and AOL.

The swords Link uses in Hyrule were the Brown Sword, White Sword and Magical Sword.
ALTTP introduced the Master Sword and this was added to the lore.
The guidebooks which are official though released years later, then show LOZ/ AOL Link wielding the Master Sword.
No retcon of this information has ever occured despite the fact these games were released on the GBA as classic NES games.
When ALTTPFS was released for GBA, the prologue text deliberately changed some text, predominantly the term 'wise men' to 'sages'.

People can interpret this how they may, however, there is still nothing to suggest in my mind that LOZ/AOL Link uses the Master Sword. (With the release of Hyrule Historia now, we also know that this is NOT the case.)

Therefore with an artifact which was purposely removed from a game and included as the final Bosses' attack in a guide, this changes nothing and doesn't alter the plot aside from explaining how the boss is attacking the player.

[theplottwist]

Exactly, it was removed. My point stands.
The guide states it's Dracula's weapon, it never makes mention of Simon using it and it's not the sole purpose for his resurrection. I believe you're taking poetic licence with this one artifact which was intentionally deleted from a game.

Dude, it was removed as an item from the game. Doesn't mean the story could not have been worked around its removal, becoming the means through which Dracula returned to life.

Also, it does say that Dracula returned from his fang AND that it is the reason why it is his only weapon. Both informations are on the guide. None of this is my "poetic license."

Now, before you ask for page number, panel, exact text, color of the page and possible typos, I'll post here the pages from where possibly this text comes from. I summon thee, japanese speakers, to tell me if this mention of the fang really exists. Because until now I'm basing himself on what the Wiki's text done by a japanese told me:

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/packing/drac2guide16-17.jpg
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/packing/drac2guide60-61.jpg

So what is Maxim trying to accomplish then?

(click to show/hide)

Maxim   Long ago, you told me of Dracula's remains. Do you rememer that?

Juste     Yes, I remember. The story of how my grandfather, Simon, gathered
            Dracula's remains and destroyed them to undo his curse.

Maxim   I thought my wishes would be granted if I too could gather and
            destroy them.

Maxim is not even trying to revive Dracula. Like I said before, he gathered them under a "higher influence" but always had in mind their destruction.

So why were the body parts spread all over the non-existent Castle, for what purpose if not to resurrect Dracula?

(click to show/hide)

Juste         That means the remains found in this castle are genuine...
Maxim       They are identical to the ones I found. But, I have little memory of
           what happened after that. I only remember Lydie being brought here.

If you don't have any Relics:

Juste       What?! You found them?
Maxim   According to legend, it's still too early for Dracula's
            ressurection. It is not like anyone is cursed right now either. At
            first, I was doubtful that I could find the remains... but I
            uncovered six parts, as if guided by a higher being...
Juste       That's impossible...
Maxim   I have little memory of what occured after that, but the remains
            have vanished. I do remember clearly though that Lydie was
            kidnapped....

If Maxim himself has no idea why they were hidden, I can't answer. HOWEVER it seems obvious they were hidden by his evil self. Why did the evil entity not manifest right then and there is anyone's guess.

Plus, if the purpose was to revive Dracula, why would he hide the remains all over?

He was not influenced, but he was also not impervious to Dracula's power/ magic, so the point (aside from corruption/ influence) doesn't.

Of course, but I never once said they are impervious to Dracula's magic, only influence:

Another point is that Maxim is not a Belmont. And we learn in Ecclesia that Belmonts are naturally impervious to Dracula's influence, be it from himself or some manifestation of his power, such as his remains. So, even though Simon was not influenced, Maxim could very well have had his feeling amplified by the remains' power.

I never said "his power" or "his magic" specifically because Dracula's magic can OBVIOUSLY hurt the Belmonts.

I guess it can manifest as other things, however Dracula, Dracula Wraith etc still returns. If this is as you were stating occuring via Maxim and it wan't Dracula per se, why did the Dracula wraith (Maxim) have no memory of the Belmonts? Yet as you've stated the Castle manifested from Maxim's mind still has Simon Wraiths? The two ideas conflict imo.

I'm not denying anything rather asking (as I did above) if Dracula's Wraith is not Dracula, and it has come about via Maxim (as you state the castle has - which contains memories of Simon Belmont) why does it not remember the Belmonts?

Well, Maxim is not able to "remember" how Dracula felt upon being hit by a Belmont, is he? D. Wraith says "So this is the power of a Belmont?"

The point here is that he doesn't know what "the power of a Belmont" feels like. Also, Dracula Wraith is not made from Maxim's memories, but his feelings. I proposed that Simon Wraith up there is made from what Maxim remembers of Simon's telling, but this is just a wild hypothesis man. No need to take it seriously. I can't really answer "why there is a Simon Wraith" there.

We've seen the power of darkness copy Sypha, Grant and Trevor, too. This could be one such case. But this could not be, too, because we have no idea about the extension of the dark power used to achieve this.

Then why was Maxim 'co-erced' into gathering the remains? If the remains' agency had nothing to do with Dracula's agenda to be revived why did this happen, and why did the Castle manifest? SOTN shows us that even prior to Dracula's resurrection (when Richter was technically the first Castle's Lord) that a Castle can manifest. The two castles still comprised the real Castlevania. SOTN's castle had Trevor, Grant and Sypha Wraiths, HOD's has Simon Wraiths, imo it makes sense to be the real Castle - even if in incomplete form.

Too many info I don't agree with here. In parts:

1. If the remains' agency had nothing to do with Dracula's agenda to be revived why did this happen, and why did the Castle manifest?

That's the catch: The dark influence is meant to push people in doing evil, that's why I don't think it has an agency of itself. People are drawn to reviving Dracula due to having him in mind and being corrupted, since this is one of the evil thoughts that can take shape, but not the only thoughts.

I base this idea on Maxim himself: He was corrupted, but he did NOT seek Dracula's revival. Therefore he developed an evil split personality (which I defend to be an entity born out of his feelings) that probably even hid the remains. Why the heck would this identity do that if it could ensure its own revival as Dracula on his own body? The only logical answer I can see is that it is not Dracula at all, and it is not seeking his revival. It becoming Dracula Wraith was a last minute refuge to try to destroy Juste.

See, if the thing inside Maxim is Dracula, hiding the remains is EXTREMELLY counter-productive, don't you think? Plus, along the game we see that it bears a distinct hatred towards Juste, specifically. Looks a hell of a lot like Maxim's envy taking place.

2.  SOTN shows us that even prior to Dracula's resurrection (when Richter was technically the first Castle's Lord) that a Castle can manifest. The two castles still comprised the real Castlevania

I don't agree with this either, even if it does sound logical. As Inccubus put it "the castle is not bound to a single form." Makes sense, but I do not agree specifically because of HoD. Both castles in SotN seem to be too disconnected from each other to actually be the same (for me of course).

If HoD can have a -fake- castle arise that needs to be "complete", as Death says, then it looks like the same thing is happening in SotN, in my opinion of course. So I cannot debate this honestly.

There is also the possibility that the things happening in each story are totally separate situations: Both castles in SotN are real, but in Harmony they're not.

Plus, in the dialogue, Maxim confirms that the spirit inside him is who summoned the castle, using Dracula's power it gained from the remains.

3. SOTN's castle had Trevor, Grant and Sypha Wraiths, HOD's has Simon Wraiths, imo it makes sense to be the real Castle - even if in incomplete form.

I don't agree with this because we don't know the full extension of the dark power used to accomplish these things - the creation of evil clones. I don't really pay a SERIOUS mind to Simon Wraith's presence on HoD because I don't know how could it exist. The series has established that supernatural phenomena of many sorts exist outside the castle, without its input in anything.

Therefore with an artifact which was purposely removed from a game and included as the final Bosses' attack in a guide, this changes nothing and doesn't alter the plot aside from explaining how the boss is attacking the player.

Refer to my first response. I very much want a direct translation of that (if you japanese masters are reading this), but I'm confident that the mention of Dracula reviving from the fang is there indeed.

EDIT: Here's yet another piece of dialogue confirming that it's not Dracula:

E.Maxim: I am... myself. Though, I'm not the same Maxim you know.  I am the
              desires that were once sealed away in this man. Since he obtained
              the relics of Dracula, another spirit took form within him. I am
              that other. I don't think he's even aware of me!

[zangetsu468]

I'll reply to other points later as I'm not at a PC.

Fair points from Maxim's dialogue. For now I'll agree to disagree on the castle/ Belmont wraith related info.

Just one thing though, are you saying CVII's Dracula was resurrected 'by the Fang' purely? Or are you saying the collective body parts 'plus' the fang?
See to me if the translators are right and the latter stands I wouldn't have so much of an issue, but if it was the former it would basically negate the entirety of collecting body parts in CVII.

On that note it is counterproductive for Alterego-Maxim to hide/ scatter the remains within the Castle. However I do believe hod was more of a SOTN clone which is why they included the remains (relics in SOTN) and the 2 castles which following Simon's quest was why they included Juste doing what Simon had done. But that's imo.

[theplottwist]

Just one thing though, are you saying CVII's Dracula was resurrected 'by the Fang' purely? Or are you saying the collective body parts 'plus' the fang?
See to me if the translators are right and the latter stands I wouldn't have so much of an issue, but if it was the former it would basically negate the entirety of collecting body parts in CVII.

I'm saying that returned only by the fang. Simon managed to destroy the rest, but the fang was intact.

I don't really think it would negate CVII because, by reviving through only one remain, Dracula returned stupidly weak. The guidebook mentioning specifically that this is the reason for him to only have one attack seems to me as a way to justify why he is so puny.

Also, I found out a translation directly from the japanese script that might be interesting:

(click to show/hide)

M=    Do you recall the story you once told me about the relics, the pieces of Dracula?

J=    Yeah, I remember.  My grandfather, Simon, gathered and destroyed the relics in order to end Dracula's curse.

M=    I thought if I could gather and destroy those pieces of Dracula myself, my hopes would be fulfilled.

J=    You're not saying the relics of Dracula still exist?

M=    According to the legend, it's still too early for Dracula's revival.  And, it's not like anyone is under Dracula's curse right now.  At first, I also doubted the relics still existed...  but following the legend, I somehow found the 6 pieces.

J=    Ridiculous!

This dialogue implies that not only Simon told them that the remains were successfully destroyed, but neither of them (and probably not even Simon) believed they were still intact.

This fits with the CVII manual, that states that destroying the remains is the way to lift the curse, and not defeating Dracula again.

Lastly, Maxim also says that he "followed the legend" instead of being "guided by a higher power" like the english translation does. If this translation correct, then Dracula's influence is not even a thing here.

Here is the full translation:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/554981-castlevania-harmony-of-dissonance/faqs/17572

[zangetsu468]

I'm saying that returned only by the fang. Simon managed to destroy the rest, but the fang was intact.

I don't really think it would negate CVII because, by reviving through only one remain, Dracula returned stupidly weak. The guidebook mentioning specifically that this is the reason for him to only have one attack seems to me as a way to justify why he is so puny.

Also, I found out a translation directly from the japanese script that might be interesting:

(click to show/hide)

M=    Do you recall the story you once told me about the relics, the pieces of Dracula?

J=    Yeah, I remember.  My grandfather, Simon, gathered and destroyed the relics in order to end Dracula's curse.

M=    I thought if I could gather and destroy those pieces of Dracula myself, my hopes would be fulfilled.

J=    You're not saying the relics of Dracula still exist?

M=    According to the legend, it's still too early for Dracula's revival.  And, it's not like anyone is under Dracula's curse right now.  At first, I also doubted the relics still existed...  but following the legend, I somehow found the 6 pieces.

J=    Ridiculous!

This dialogue implies that not only Simon told them that the remains were successfully destroyed, but neither of them (and probably not even Simon) believed they were still intact.

This fits with the CVII manual, that states that destroying the remains is the way to lift the curse, and not defeating Dracula again.

Lastly, Maxim also says that he "followed the legend" instead of being "guided by a higher power" like the english translation does. If this translation correct, then Dracula's influence is not even a thing here.

Here is the full translation:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/554981-castlevania-harmony-of-dissonance/faqs/17572

I'm going to look at this in detail later to try and grasp at why.

The 'fang alone' stance doesn't make sense to me. Say for example Simon destroys all the remains he finds (which he does) then why does Dracula only manifest directly after the remains are destroyed?

If the Fang acts independently of the other remains in CV II, why was Dracula not already there when Simon gathered(burned?) his remains?

Why if he had to gather Dracula's remains did this not include the fang, which you're stating now acts independently of the other remains? I'm trying to understand if you're stating he destroyed all the parts besides the fang and it was indeed because of this that Dracula had manifested? If this is so, one would assume destroying all of the parts in order to lift the curse would include the fang - hence destroying Dracula would be destroying the fang.
If this is true, finally why was it removed from the final game?

Why is it that gathering the remains in one place effectively manifests a 'Dracula Wraith' in both CVII and HOD?

I'm not trying to refute all of your claims Plot, I would just like to understand the reasoning behind them.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I just did a rapid search for the word fang and here it is.
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/packing/drac2guide16-17.jpg
Under Dracula's character description:
(1st paragraph) Dracula was supposed to be defeated based on the previous game.　However he was resurrected through great magic. Aside from the 5 remains that Simon collected, there is the fang. But Simon did not know this.

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/packing/drac2guide60-61.jpg
Number 3 (at the lower right page) says: Dracula's ghost strikes with fang!
Somehow there's another remain. The last remaining fang will be used by Dracula's ghost in order to attack Simon. However, the fang lacks strength. Simon has forever contained/sealed Dracula!

I suppose this would be enough right?

[theplottwist]

I just did a rapid search for the word fang and here it is.
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/packing/drac2guide16-17.jpg
Under Dracula's character description:
(1st paragraph) Dracula was supposed to be defeated based on the previous game.　However he was resurrected through great magic. Aside from the 5 remains that Simon collected, there is the fang. But Simon did not know this.

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/packing/drac2guide60-61.jpg
Number 3 (at the lower right page) says: Dracula's ghost strikes with fang!
Somehow there's another remain. The last remaining fang will be used by Dracula's ghost in order to attack Simon. However, the fang lacks strength. Simon has forever contained/sealed Dracula!

I suppose this would be enough right?

This more than does it, Shiroi-chan my hero!

I'm not trying to refute all of your claims Plot, I would just like to understand the reasoning behind them.

No no, man, it's fine. I love debating this shit! Specially because these debates do open my eyes for the story much better than me speaking to myself in an echo chamber.

The 'fang alone' stance doesn't make sense to me. Say for example Simon destroys all the remains he finds (which he does) then why does Dracula only manifest directly after the remains are destroyed?

If the Fang acts independently of the other remains in CV II, why was Dracula not already there when Simon gathered(burned?) his remains?

Now you'll have to deal with a lot of my own assumptions, but here it goes:

I think that Dracula's spirit was "dormant" in a way, trying to recover, and when Simon burned the remains, Dracula "woke up" in desperation, and returned to destroy Simon. I can only think of this because, as you put, it'd make zero sense for Dracula to simply not return before Simon made it to the castle. It'd simply be much easier for him.

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, Dracula is feeding off of Simon's life through the curse to return. This could explain why he doesn't simply return before Simon gets to the castle. He is waiting until the very last moment to drain the most he can from Simon. BUT I can't remember where did it say that, so take this with a mountain or two of salt.

Why if he had to gather Dracula's remains did this not include the fang, which you're stating now acts independently of the other remains? I'm trying to understand if you're stating he destroyed all the parts besides the fang and it was indeed because of this that Dracula had manifested? If this is so, one would assume destroying all of the parts in order to lift the curse would include the fang - hence destroying Dracula would be destroying the fang.
If this is true, finally why was it removed from the final game?

I think Simon did destroy the five remains first and then Dracula resurrected. Simon was still cursed through the battle, and it was lifted the moment he defeated Dracula again.

About it being removed from the game, I simply can't answer for that, as the developers never said anything. I can guarantee that the fang is an icon, like the other remains, which implies that it was supposed to be carried by Simon as an equipment. I have looked into this myself, and the icon is there in the memory, in the same place that the other equip icons are.

I don't know why it was removed, but it reappearing in the guidebook, and later as Dracula's attack and in the games by IGA suggest that it was removed in development, but they still wanted as a plot point. IGA had full access to the whole thing, so he could have learned about the reasoning behind it, but we don't. So the only thing I can do is assume and infer things.

EDIT: Decided to post here the remains, too. This might come in handy for someone:



Also, notice how there are two fangs, instead of one.

[zangetsu468]

Shiroi thanks for taking the time to explain this as well as yourself Plottwist.
I guess the part that translates to 'ghost' makes sense when compared to Hod's Dracula as the definition of the term wraith is pretty much this.
I'm really surprised if anything because it was never included or even explained in the game.

Then again nothing was well explained in CVII. As a kid I simply assumed all of the parts assembled into the Castle would resurrect the Count. It still makes more logistical sense to me, but I guess it's not to be. 

I wonder if they thought it would be too complicated keeping that in, or if the development  was running late/ running over budget and therefore they decided to omit this...

[Nagumo]

About the legitimacy of the Dracula fang thing, IGA incorporated this into the PoR pre-order bonus timeline:

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-por/packaging/timeline-side2.jpg

Here is the full translation:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/554981-castlevania-harmony-of-dissonance/faqs/17572

Somehow, I totally missed this. I read through it and it's interesting how in the dialogue it's made clear Death eventually allies himself with Maxim/Dracula Wraith, calling him "Lord Maxim" and so on, which is not apperent in the translation at all. I always assumed Death was operating as an indepent agent throughout the entire game, somehow trying to turn Maxim/Dracula Wraith into the real Dracula. However, it seems he simply accepts Maxim/Dracula Wraith as his new master. So I assume that if the Dracula Wraith had managed to supress Maxim's soul, we would have ended up with "Maxula". I'm suddenly having all kinds mind blowing revelations about these game's stories.

[zangetsu468]

Speaking of Revelations, while playing through CV Chronicles it's likeness to the original CV1 is obvious, but I just had a thought looking at that timeline .. Technically that's the Chronicles (Arrange) artwork version of Simon, so obviously Chronicles supersedes CV1, which was already superseded by SuperCVIV, or was it? Super CVIV is vastly different including Dracula's final form and I thought it had never officially been states in the Japanese version that it's a re telling of CV1. In the Chronicles interview on the game IGA confirms Chronicles itself is CV1 remade. So is there official Japanese placement for SuperCVIV, is it another story, unrelated or does it happen in the alternate timeline with Cotm, OOS, legends and LOD? 

[Aceearly1993]

Some castlevania wikia stuff

IGA: FC版とX６８０００版ですが、X６８０００版はFC版をベースにアレンジを加えたものになっています。ゲームのアレンジは、その時に応じて、色々と施されるものですので、正直どちらも正統であると思ってよいのではないかと思っています。結論として、ドラキュラと戦い勝つというシナリオで、中間部分の切り抜きが違うと考えてもよいのではないかと考えています。スーパーファミコン版も違いますし…。どうしてもと考えるのであれば、FC版を尊重すべきかと考えます。
Translation: Regarding the Famicom version and the X68000 version, the X68000 version is an arrangement based on the Famicom version. The arrangement of a game is the kind of thing where you add a lot of different things as needed, so honestly speaking, it think they both should be considered legitimate. In conclusion, I think they should be considered as the same scenario of fighting to defeat Dracula, just with a different middle part. The Super Famicom version is different as well... If you simply must have a clear answer, the Famicom version must be given deference.

IGA considered the original FC/NES CV1 as "canon", and he considered CV4 and Akumajo Dracula X68000/CV Chronicles are the same story retold with arranged/brandnew elements. (For me, personally, I enjoyed almost everything in CV Chronicles though)