Topic: Which 3D game would've been better in 2D?

[Crying Freeman]

My biggest gripe with 3Dvania is aside from the 64 titles in some segments of the game, the other 2 titles did not have the balls to implement a necessity for air attacks. Since COD is a hack and slash with barely any platforming we can disregard it, but LOI's Belmont had a whip, and having no succinct jump+whip mechanic which was such an important part of 2dvania, just sucks anus.
White Skeleton, Green Skeleton, Blood Skeleton, Gold Skeleton, all with the same unblockable attacks.. Seriously it's boring as bat shit. Even the bats' shit is less boring. At least COD was the first 3D game to implement Rippers/ Fleamen as well as Cockatrice and a few more random off-the-cuff enemies (like gaibon). At least in the Wyvern battle you could jump onto its back and it became a different mechanic altogether. At least in the N64 titles when you fight that Giant Bull after setting the TNT/breaking the magic seal if you're playing as Reinhardt it makes it easier to jump+whip. Same goes for the Vampires you fight along the way.

Sorry, rant over. LOI is just lacking some critical mechanics imo, even though the gameplay works. The atmosphere music etc is great also. LOI did have The Forgotten One, now that was a memorable battle imo.

I guess their reasoning for that was because it follows the Rygar/GOW style of hucknslash, which doesn't work as well in platforming segments generally. The 64 games treated attacks like the old school games, so jumping and attacking was easier to implement.

I must say, though, while I enjoy tons of aspects of LOI, I'm getting tired of it REALLY quick. I beat House of sacred remains, Ghostly theater, and I got lost and gave up for now in the Acqueduct stage so I left and tried to Garden stage, and I'm list again!! Idk if I'm stupid, but I'm getting SO tired of going everywhere I can go and not being able to progress.

I wanna play COD again afterwards, I remember having more fun with it, and I wanna try Trevor mode sooooo badly. Only problem in COD for me was that the repetitive environments stood out more for being repetitive and got pretty stale quickly.

[zangetsu468]

@Freeman: True, but they should've taken those playstyles and adopted air mechanics. Castlevania 2d as opposed to 3d (aside from 64/LOD) actually has a lot to do with jumping. It's boring as bat shit if you can't jump. Though in 3D CV it's not essential in combat. The few exceptions to the rule are LOI for dodging beam attacks and COD either jumping or more appropriately doing the dodge/flip moves which enables a few frames of invincibility even for beam attacks.

[Crying Freeman]

@Freeman: True, but they should've taken those playstyles and adopted air mechanics. Castlevania 2d as opposed to 3d (aside from 64/LOD) actually has a lot to do with jumping. It's boring as bat shit if you can't jump. Though in 3D CV it's not essential in combat. The few exceptions to the rule are LOI for dodging beam attacks and COD either jumping or more appropriately doing the dodge/flip moves which enables a few frames of invincibility even for beam attacks.

I agree, implementing better junp-attack mechanics would've helped out a lot. Fights feel really repetitive and if it weren't for the enemy variety it would be too boring to bear.

Classic CV was a master at timing your attacks and junps through knowing the controls. It's like driving a new car; you know how to basically operate a vehicle, but it feels different and you have to take that into account while driving.

LOI and COD feel like driving golf carts; pedal to the medal, nothing exhilarating, just a slow and varebones vehicle that doesn't really require any skill to master or keep in mind.

[zangetsu468]

LOI and COD feel like driving golf carts; pedal to the medal, nothing exhilarating, just a slow and varebones vehicle that doesn't really require any skill to master or keep in mind.

Someone on a way older thread had made a really good point about LOI once, the combo system being well designed but the AI not being up to par in such a game where said combo system was used. The problem is with Leon's extended combo system by the time you've hit an enemy x amount of times they're already destroyed. Therefore you wouldn't really use extended combo's on lesser enemies unless it was a group attack. With bosses it's possible though there's a chance you will have to be moving a lot, but you get the risk/ reward factor.

What I'm saying is Castlevania generally lends itself to being like boxing; stick and move. Generally you're not whipping more than a few times before moving or you're going to lose health from enemies. (Even in LOS fighting Cornell for example for the most part you can't really combo, you have to whip and move or you get hammered - literally) So they have this great combo system but nobody to use it on. Don't get it twisted, I think a combo system is good to have, but it's not as necessary for CV as the platforming.

The problem with this gripe being that it's very difficult to implement jump+whip mechanics in 3D, because you could have aerial enemies flying in any direction which may be unfair to the player. So in the end there needs to be another less punishing way of implementing aerial attacks. One way could be a targeting system, having a specific function for aerial-whipping in one direction, or having sections of the game which basically are more 2D.

This is where CV64/ LOD did some things right, particularly with Reinhardt's game:
- Have to jump+whip to hit certain bosses
- Have to jump+whip to hit Dracula
- Jump+whipping with targetting has pin point precision

No other 3D CV has attempted this and suceeded. With COD/ LOI if they had sped up the gameplay slightly, sped up the character's movement in general and had more direct strikes rather than "area-attacks" as well as the requirement to platform vertically with the inclusion of pitfalls (LOI had 1 or 2, COD didn't) and have actual seamless stages or areas rather than 'rooms' they could have worked.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

[Wall of very good text]

Pretty much on the nose.

In terms of gameplay, the N64 Castlevanias just understood what Castlevania was about (excepting of course, the damn Nitro puzzle) far better than the PS2/PS360 games did.

Ironically, Curse of Darkness ALMOST nailed that by severely whittling down the combo system to bare bones, but it made it seem more boring on top of an already very potentially boring game, so it didn't have the same impact.

of course, the N64vania's combat system now seems incredibly stiff and immobile by comparison to more modern games, so that also happened.

in Lords, you can beat the whole game with just a few favorite simple moves that you've committed to memory and then run a very good dodge and parry game, with well over 2/3 of the combos in the game going unused except for the goody of getting a skill mastery (at which point most never touch them again) to power up your attacks.

The combo system is more or less entirely wasted, unlike in the big competitors of God of War and Devil May Cry.

[zangetsu468]

Pretty much on the nose.

Thank you my friend

In terms of gameplay, the N64 Castlevanias just understood what Castlevania was about (excepting of course, the damn Nitro puzzle) far better than the PS2/PS360 games did.

The Nitro puzzle did have me stumped on my first playthrough, but removing the magical seal was rewarding in finally blowing up that wall!

Ironically, Curse of Darkness ALMOST nailed that by severely whittling down the combo system to bare bones, but it made it seem more boring on top of an already very potentially boring game, so it didn't have the same impact.

The best thing about COD was gathering materials to create weapons (that and the familiar system, similar in philosophy).
What let this down wasn't lack of combos imo, it's that main attacks and abilities, combos etc were all ground based.
There were certain weapons where if you hit [square]+[circle] Hector performed an airlaunch attack (which you needed to 'steal' items from certain enemies like ghosts in The Forest of Jigramunt) But here was the issue, Air attacks and such in COD were barely required or used, as jumping was more of a dodge/ evade mechanic if anything.

of course, the N64vania's combat system now seems incredibly stiff and immobile by comparison to more modern games, so that also happened.

Agreed, but this was an N64 game, and it was an early one at that. LOD fixed certain things -mainly to do with camera - but not perfectly. A remake would do it wonders and it could be made much smoother.

in Lords, you can beat the whole game with just a few favorite simple moves that you've committed to memory and then run a very good dodge and parry game, with well over 2/3 of the combos in the game going unused except for the goody of getting a skill mastery (at which point most never touch them again) to power up your attacks.

I played LOS once through on the hardest available difficulty (Knight?) upon starting the game. I bought minimal combos from memory. I also did not buy the most expensive light and dark moves, because I didn't see the point. I wanted the game to be more difficult and more like a traditional CV.

Longer combos do come in handy for harder hordes of enemies, particularly like the necromancers. However, if you combo for too long and cop a random hit then it's instant death anyway. I found shorter combos were more effective. I'd say the fight against pan was the one that springs to mind where you could parry and get a decent 6-8 consecutive hits on him.; or two short combos.

The combo system is more or less entirely wasted, unlike in the big competitors of God of War and Devil May Cry.

True, however, LOS is more risk/reward as Gabriel builds meter for hitting enemies multiple times. In LOI, there's absolutely no reward for your risk. Even building MP/ hearts would have been a better reward, but if you run out of MP you either have to use a potion or parry with the gauntlet... A tad archaic.

[Crying Freeman]

Someone on a way older thread had made a really good point about LOI once, the combo system being well designed but the AI not being up to par in such a game where said combo system was used. The problem is with Leon's extended combo system by the time you've hit an enemy x amount of times they're already destroyed. Therefore you wouldn't really use extended combo's on lesser enemies unless it was a group attack. With bosses it's possible though there's a chance you will have to be moving a lot, but you get the risk/ reward factor.

What I'm saying is Castlevania generally lends itself to being like boxing; stick and move. Generally you're not whipping more than a few times before moving or you're going to lose health from enemies. (Even in LOS fighting Cornell for example for the most part you can't really combo, you have to whip and move or you get hammered - literally) So they have this great combo system but nobody to use it on. Don't get it twisted, I think a combo system is good to have, but it's not as necessary for CV as the platforming.

The problem with this gripe being that it's very difficult to implement jump+whip mechanics in 3D, because you could have aerial enemies flying in any direction which may be unfair to the player. So in the end there needs to be another less punishing way of implementing aerial attacks. One way could be a targeting system, having a specific function for aerial-whipping in one direction, or having sections of the game which basically are more 2D.

This is where CV64/ LOD did some things right, particularly with Reinhardt's game:
- Have to jump+whip to hit certain bosses
- Have to jump+whip to hit Dracula
- Jump+whipping with targetting has pin point precision

No other 3D CV has attempted this and suceeded. With COD/ LOI if they had sped up the gameplay slightly, sped up the character's movement in general and had more direct strikes rather than "area-attacks" as well as the requirement to platform vertically with the inclusion of pitfalls (LOI had 1 or 2, COD didn't) and have actual seamless stages or areas rather than 'rooms' they could have worked.

I also thought a lock on for enemies would help for Peeping eyes and gargoyles(which appear to be 3D updates of the Saturn Sotn's gargoyles). I've always felt it was stupid how they used the right analogue. I mean, I can pause, go to my items list, but can't use them in the menu?? What's the point of letting me look at them??

I understand they probably wanted to keep the action going and keep players on their toes, but why not give the option? Especially when we can access the items list while paused anyway?

Maybe switching targets by flicking the right analogue left or right, similar to 007 Everything or Nothing. I can see that being problematic with all the enemies that might be one screen, but maybe click the analogue to activate it when you want, flick the stick to switch. I can see a system like that working for the player when they have 2 or 3 big enemies on screen or a boss to fight.

[EstebanT]

(Even in LOS fighting Cornell for example for the most part you can't really combo, you have to whip and move or you get hammered - literally) So they have this great combo system but nobody to use it on.

I remember people giving the LoS games so much shit for damage sponge enemies.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I remember people giving the LoS games so much shit for damage sponge enemies.

Rightly so, because damage sponge enemies are just plain lazy.

[zangetsu468]

Rightly so, because damage sponge enemies are just plain lazy.

I would honestly say in that entire playthrough of LOS Cornell was the hardest boss imo. I didn't have any trouble with the rest of the game, but I found him difficult, maybe because this was the start of the game (It was very strange as I nearly beat him on my first try). Probably second to TF1 if you count DLC.

I'm not complaining in context though, LOS was a very good game at least imo. But when you look at the signature elements that make Castlevania it just didn't have it.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I would honestly say in that entire playthrough of LOS Cornell was the hardest boss imo. I didn't have any trouble with the rest of the game, but I found him difficult, maybe because this was the start of the game (It was very strange as I nearly beat him on my first try). Probably second to TF1 if you count DLC.

I'm not complaining in context though, LOS was a very good game at least imo. But when you look at the signature elements that make Castlevania it just didn't have it.

Cornell's human form is notably more difficult than his wolf form, largely because he barely telegraphs his attacks in a manner that gives you time to figure it out and counter-- his pace is frantic.

Most other enemies and bosses telegraph WAY more than Cornell's human form, and as such leave you ill-prepared to face him even on repeat playthroughs because he fights more outside the system and rhythm the game trains you to fight in.

Like every enemy obeys strict rules EXCEPT THIS ONE, which just makes him annoying in that regard.

But he's manageable, even then.

[KaZudra]

Damage Sponge bosses are painful, hate them in every game (especially OoE)
Cornell isn't too bad, then again I learned Perfect Guard is godlike my second playthrough

[zangetsu468]

Damage Sponge bosses are painful, hate them in every game (especially OoE)
Cornell isn't too bad, then again I learned Perfect Guard is godlike my second playthrough

PG is a DMC term isn't it? Even with this you can only hit him a few times. I agree his form 1 is more spontaneous, less tells than form 2.

I don't recall OOE's bosses taking that long to kill aside from Death and Dracula even on L1 cap. This was also without using Glyph union attacks.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

PG is a DMC term isn't it? Even with this you can only hit him a few times. I agree his form 1 is more spontaneous, less tells than form 2.

I don't recall OOE's bosses taking that long to kill aside from Death and Dracula even on L1 cap. This was also without using Glyph union attacks.

One time, I used an Action Replay to unlock all the glyphs+unions from the start of the game and gave myself infinite MP to enable the spamming of everything.

Shanoa became Shiva, lording over all destruction and creation.

I also enabled the use of the Dominus Glyphs but disabled character death (which is what happens ordinarily if you try to use it). The end result is essentially Hiroshima on August 6, 1945.

Shanoa is potentially the most powerful Castlevania character in canon short of God Himself.

[zangetsu468]

I also enabled the use of the Dominus Glyphs but disabled character death (which is what happens ordinarily if you try to use it). The end result is essentially Hiroshima on August 6, 1945.

I can imagine..
Does it simply deduct 9999HP from all enemies on screen?

I've played through Hard mode capped on L01 with both Shanoa and Albus(up to Dracula, haven't beaten him), I can say that although the playthrough of stages is more painful with Shanoa, bosses are more painful with Albus. By the time you reach that Giant fish boss with Shanoa and you obtain Grando, her attacks are extremely powerful considering the cap.