Topic: You know what would have saved everyone a lot of trouble...

[Nagumo]

If they had just cast the Sanctuary spell on Sara, and Leon just took her home afterwards.

You know, instead of that what actually happend. Like, what the hell, Rinaldo?
 

[VladCT]

Maybe the Sanctuary spell hadn't been invented yet by that time? :V

[zangetsu468]

It hadn't been invented until hundreds of years later. Certainly if Rinaldo could have he would have also at least tried using it to save his daughter.

It would've been easier, if he'd made a spell but instead he made the whip and beat the fucking living shit out of her with it. #parenting101

Curing Sara wouldn't have worked anyway in a plot-sense as Mathias plan would have never panned out i.e. No Dracula.

[Nagumo]

Did they ever establish the Sanctuary spell was created recently then? I don't think they did so I'm suprised they didn't even bother to handwave it a little bit by saying Charlotte created the spell or something. You could explain this away easily enough of course, but it seems a bit like sloppy writing.   

[zangetsu468]

Did they ever establish the Sanctuary spell was created recently then? I don't think they did so I'm suprised they didn't even bother to handwave it a little bit by saying Charlotte created the spell or something. You could explain this away easily enough of course, but it seems a bit like sloppy writing.   

I've just played through POR skimming over the text, but there's one part where Wind is in dismay ad accepted the Sister's vampirism would be permanent. He's then shocked to learn from Jonathan and Charlotte that they were able to save them.
Charlotte mentions it was her skill which is used in combination with the purifying spell Sanctuary. Perhaps it wasn't actually intended to cure Vampirism but due to Charlotte's capabilitie she is able to augment the purification factor.
Also I get the writing quibble you have, but 900 years had almost gone by and there's still previously no record of a Vampire being purified/ turned back to their former self.

[theplottwist]

The funny part is that the spell is found inside of a painting made from a vampire's will.

Think about it for a second - how the hell something that cures vampirism was found inside a illusion world created by a vampire who basically decided what would exist inside that painting and what would not?

I mean, the worlds inside the paintings are not real worlds in the sense that they exist as material places, but they are "real" while the paintings are. Even though they are real, they basically had to be created out of imagination, ink and magic by Brauner. Yet such a powerful spell is real enough to be brought outside of the painting and to be used in real life effectively (such as all the equipment found inside them, but I handwave those as "videogame logic" since they have no story weight and are needed only for their gameplay purpose).

Charlotte did not create it, as she quite clearly states she "learned" it from something. But in this case, who did? Brauner? Why would he create something that could so obviously be used against him or against his "daughters" like this?

I have my own hypothesis concerning this, but it's irrelevant unless someone is interested.

Sanctuary comes off as a Deus Ex Machina plot device. But in a franchise that thrives in Deus Ex Machinas I think it's excusable.

EDIT: Important to note - The characters in the game say that a purification spell is useful in the early stages of an affliction, Vincent Dorin being the most straightfoward about this, slowly turning into a vampire until you use the spell on him. However the sisters have been vampirized for over TWO YEARS at the time Jonathan and Charlotte comes to the castle. No way they are in the "early stages".

So, while their speech about a purification spell's efficacy might be true, I believe that Sanctuary is in a completelly different league altogether.

[theANdROId]

Color me interested!

[zangetsu468]

@plottwist
It's funny that you mention that point about the painting worlds being made by Brauner's will. Doesn't Wind mention that Brauner became a vampire of his own accord after losing his daughters? He doesn't seem to have been bitten and turned like the sisters. I can't find a text dump right now and I'm on my phone.

When does it state 2 years had passed?

In any case Sanctuary doesn't work on Brauner or Dracula, my hypothesis being it would only work on somebody who was turned against their will where part of this person deep down would still be willing to revert back. (Sisters, Vincent) If it was too far find the spell wouldn't work. 

Perhaps regular humans with no enchanted bloodline are just affected, turn and lose their humanity much quicker. Vincent being desperate to be saved stating "I'll lower the price". This would explain why Sara turned so fast.

[theplottwist]

@plottwist
It's funny that you mention that point about the painting worlds being made by Brauner's will. Doesn't Wind mention that Brauner became a vampire of his own accord after losing his daughters? He doesn't seem to have been bitten and turned like the sisters. I can't find a text dump right now and I'm on my phone.

Wind doesn't mention it, but Brauner's bio does. It says that his grief over the loss of his daughters awakened his magical powers - which he used to become a vampire. Note that "awakening these powers and using them directly to become a vampire" may not be what happened, even though this is what is implied. He might have used these powers to actually look for a way to become a vampire through another method.

But yeah, the bio pretty much implies he turned into a vampire by grief alone.

When does it state 2 years had passed?

This is present on Eric Lecarde's bio as "Wind" on the instruction manual. There it says that he died at age 50. However, if you measure it from his birthday date (1892), it doesn't add up to 1944, but to 1942.

In the Sisters Mode we get to Eric just moments before his death, where the sisters are imediatelly vampirized, thus placing these events in 1942 while the main game happens two years later.

In any case Sanctuary doesn't work on Brauner or Dracula, my hypothesis being it would only work on somebody who was turned against their will where part of this person deep down would still be willing to revert back. (Sisters, Vincent) If it was too far find the spell wouldn't work. 

I dunno if we think alike, but I believe that Sanctuary wouldn't work on Brauner or Dracula because they weren't turned. They became vampires through other methods, while Vincent and the Sisters were turned unwillingly.

[theplottwist]

Color me interested!

My hypothesis is basically this:

Brauner, as a painter, even if he's very creative (just look at the circus themed paintings), he would have to have seen something to inspire him before actually painting something.

For instance: Even though the circus paintings are very surreal, one still needs a basis on a real circus to be able to paint that. Even though the pyramid paintings have impossible concepts, he'd need to know what the pyramids are and the egyptian themes surrounding them to actually be able to bend the concept with his creativity.

And then, here comes Sanctuary. Brauner didn't invent Sanctuary. He has already seen it before, and the concept bled into his painting.

Now, this dialogue is on the game's script:

(click to show/hide)

Wind: It is indeed Dracula's Castle. However, the castle's
      lord is a vampire by the name of Brauner.

Charlotte: I've heard nothing about that!

Wind: As one would expect. His identity has been kept secret
      for years, after all. He infuses magic into paintings to
      increase his power. You will undoubtedly come across
      these paintings in this castle. Search for these paintings.

Well, so someone in power - which may or not be the Church - knew about Brauner, and he was dangerous enough to have his identity hidden. So I think it's very possible that these people in power have confronted Brauner before, with Eric Lecarde being the last to do it.

Now, with this in mind, I think it's ALSO possible they tried to revert Brauner's vampirism with a spell that failed - either by sheer incompetence or he simply escaped before the spell could take effect. The fact that no one knows a purification spell could imply that, in fact, the spell didn't work as intended, so they scrapped it.

Thus, Brauner has seen it before. It could've been used against him, and the concept engraved itself on his mind. So, when Brauner painted, the concept materialized inside the painting, hidden away to be found later. Thing is - with Brauner's power and creativity, the spell could've been actually improved and NOW it works as intended, therefore allowing one to use it properly.

OR the spell was so advanced that only a genius like Charlotte could pull it off, thus justifying the "incompetence" scenario I mentioned above.

[zangetsu468]

Re: Brauner, his grief awakening magical powers may have just turned him into a Vampire over time whilst dabbling in those powers rather than it being instantaneous. Though we know he is a vampire in the traditional sense as he can turn others.

I also wonder whether Brauner's transformation parallels Dracula's, they both lost a person(s) they loved and despise humanity because of this. This make me wonder if others can draw upon Chaos as a power source the way Dracula does.

I dunno if we think alike, but I believe that Sanctuary wouldn't work on Brauner or Dracula because they weren't turned. They became vampires through other methods, while Vincent and the Sisters were turned unwillingly.

Yeah basically anyone bitten by a vampire which is kind of like secondhand vamp smoke.

My hypothesis is basically this:

Brauner, as a painter, even if he's very creative (just look at the circus themed paintings), he would have to have seen something to inspire him before actually painting something.

I agree with your theory in part, the "power"of the art  comes from the inspiration itself coming from within the artist, not necessarily in the surface subject matter, I'll explain this below.

For instance: Even though the circus paintings are very surreal, one still needs a basis on a real circus to be able to paint that.

I think this is slightly out of context.
One only needs a grounding of how/what something is platonically to envision something which can be both real and conceptual like a 'circus'. It's a general thing, it's kind of like describing 'an aeroplane' or 'a house'. One may know common associations or elements which can stitch their own conceptualisation(s) together, but this doesn't mean they necessarily require extensive knowledge of that thing. (Brauner doesn't strike me as the sort of guy who spent his life going to the circus every week )

The first circus painting is called "Nation of Fools", this is perhaps the best application of Brauner's inspiration into his art with the corresponding in game level. Let's take this as an example and I'll explain why.

List 1
There are Typical Circus-associated elements you'd find such as:
-Rings of Fire
-Clowns
-Acrobats (being fired out of canons) onto tightropes
-The "circus tent" (background)

List 2
There are also non-circus elements which are prevalent:
-Soldiers that stab you (violence)
-Clowns that attack you with playing cards (violence)
-Acrobats that throw knives at you (violence)
-The Legion (boss) consisting of numerous naked bodies of people revealing a central nucleus
-The environment (architecure/ landscape) which is twisted, contorted towards a central nucleus - as is the Legion

List 1 are the typical, generic and platonic elements associated with a circus
List 2 are the non typical associations which seem to liken the masses "fools", "clowns" and all things associated with Brauner's idea of the nation. Additional elements in List 2 which usually wouldn't be associated with a circus are, predominantly to do with violence or the attempt to kill the one experiencing this environment/ world/ reality as one does with art.
(In this case the player Jonathan/ Charlotte is experiencing the art.)

List 1 merely serves as a context and/or facade ('canvas' - albeit interactive - if I may) for which Brauner's thoughts and inspiration take physical form.
List 2 are the undertones, beliefs and underlying thoughts/ ideas/ inspiration of the artist which manifest taking physical form.

List 2 supersedes list 1, Brauner is bereft of compassion or empathy towards humans. He despises them and sees them as a 'nation of fools' where seemingly otherwise normal people have turned violent and started to slaughter one another as casualties of war. This is evident in the environment; its twisted state/ contortion mainly in physiognomy but also in enemy placement, the nucleus which reflects the consciousness of the masses (which the player has to slaughter to get to the core of) etc.

Even though List 2> List 1, context is still important. It would not make sense to have the Egypt stage as "Nation of Fools" because it wouldn't fit. Therefore List 1's theme/ motif still does complement List 2 and that is how both are configured.

Brauner's inspiration of how he views this nation in this example is what is taking precedent in these paintings.
It is too 1-dimensional to state that it's a painting about pyramids, or circuses or a forest so that's what he necessarily has to have seen.
I'm not taking aim at your ideas and rationalisation, I'm just stating there are deeper undertones to what is going in the context of these artworks, specifically relating to the artist's inspiration.

Even though the pyramid paintings have impossible concepts, he'd need to know what the pyramids are and the Egyptian themes surrounding them to actually be able to bend the concept with his creativity.

He was probably a very intelligent man, however I stand by the fact that the environments themselves at a surface level need not reflect how something platonic like a "pyramid" actually is inside.

Given these stages in the game it's likely Brauner did however have extensive knowledge of certain periods of history and civilisations.

And then, here comes Sanctuary. Brauner didn't invent Sanctuary. He has already seen it before, and the concept bled into his painting.

I do agree something relating to 'purification' in general seeped into his subconscious mind, whether this was to do specifically with curing Vampirism I'm not certain if he'd physically seen it or experienced THAT before. At this we can only hazard a guess.

What I will say is that context is very important as I stated with List 1 & 2 above. Ancient Egypt had several 'rituals' and practices that involve "purification". Hence it makes perfect sense for this spell to be in the Egypt/ Pyramid stage.

[theplottwist]

Re: Brauner, his grief awakening magical powers may have just turned him into a Vampire over time whilst dabbling in those powers rather than it being instantaneous. Though we know he is a vampire in the traditional sense as he can turn others.

I also wonder whether Brauner's transformation parallels Dracula's, they both lost a person(s) they loved and despise humanity because of this. This make me wonder if others can draw upon Chaos as a power source the way Dracula does.

Another reason why Sanctuary may not work on Dracula and Brauner: Their loss of humanity.

As long as one clings to their humanity, Sanctuary may work. But as soon as they let go, then Sanctuary is useless as there is nothing to turn this new creature back to - no "human" is present anymore. So that may explain the "early stages" thing - the "early stage" being the time one is able to cling to their own humanity.

Sorry if I'm simply saying the same thing you are only rewording it slightly.

[coinilius]

Wind doesn't mention it, but Brauner's bio does. It says that his grief over the loss of his daughters awakened his magical powers - which he used to become a vampire. Note that "awakening these powers and using them directly to become a vampire" may not be what happened, even though this is what is implied. He might have used these powers to actually look for a way to become a vampire through another method.

But yeah, the bio pretty much implies he turned into a vampire by grief alone.

I find it interesting that, in a series where Dracula is the main antagonist, there is very little actual engagement with Vampires and Vampire mythology in the Castlevania games.  And when there is, they more often than not seem to shy away from the idea of Vampire's biting someone when they turn them.  Most of the Vampires you do encounter seem to have their origins in different ways, like Mathias using the Crimson Stone or what is implied with Brauner. 

Of course, folk traditions on how Vampires were created were many and varied, but given that Castlevania has strong roots in the Universal and Hammer horror traditions it seems a bit strange.  I haven't played Portrait of Ruin yet but am well aware of the plot and the Sisters Mode, although I don't know how exactly Brauner actually turns Eric's daughters.

   

[theplottwist]

I haven't played Portrait of Ruin yet but am well aware of the plot and the Sisters Mode, although I don't know how exactly Brauner actually turns Eric's daughters.   

Brauner indeed bites them (he is shown to bite Stella and the game fades to black just as he's about to bite Loretta).

[coinilius]

Brauner indeed bites them (he is shown to bite Stella and the game fades to black just as he's about to bite Loretta).

Oh cool - I was wondering how they would handle that.