Topic: Does HoD suck?

[Crying Freeman]

Seems like CotM used to be the overlooked GBA CV, but now seems like people talk about it and Aria. HoD is shoved aside, or ive heard some people hate it. Most complaints are about its music quality, but I think people might find it boring too. I hate to say I think it is as well.

I'm not sure where everyone here generally stands on HoD, but I had to force myself to beat it. It has a lot of good, the graphics, controls(though not as tight as CotM, besides the default speed), and while the quality sucks the music compositions are good. But whats keeping me? I've started playing it like twice years after beating it and I can't get past 50% without losing interest and stopping.

I'd like to say it might be the weapons, as you only have the vmapire killer that you can fit with different tips, but CotM didn't even have that; just the DSS system, which kept things interesting. Here, it takes soooo long to get the different tips and you're sick of using the same short whip. In CotM, besides the DSS, the whip was way longer, more powerful, the control made combat way more fun, and I think it's old school difficulty helped keep things interesting. Those all combined just make the game addictive. Then we have the generally faster paced progression of SotN and Aria, not to mention how they fedd you weapons and items all day. Many complain SotN has too many useless weapons and item, citing it as a flaw, but it gives you a feeling of always doing something, getting something, and progression, so you don't get bored and feel like you aren't doing anything. It hightens your senses of doing.

CotM had a feeling of danger around every corner, no friends, while HoD feels more like Super lonely, and I actually really like the quiet moments of HoD, gives the game a really cool "exploring this abandonned place" feel. Also feel like the game was too long. I've said I don't like the inverted castle, but not to the point I'd rate SotN any lower, because it's more of the game we love, and you can't argue against that. HoD is more of the slow paced novel that we have to read for class. Igas first GBA outing was a bore, but hey, all is redeemed in Aria B)

[Ratty]

I used to dislike it, and still think it's deeply flawed, but I've come to the conclusion it's not that bad. Still my least favorite of the Metroidvanias in the series though. As like you I don't care for the music, probably mostly because of the scratchy quality, and I think the game is a bit too easy while being a little confusing at times.

[shelverton.]

HoD is kinda whimsical and psychedelic in a way and the two castles are somewhat confusing to navigate. But I love it nonethless. It's the strangest metroidvania IMO but it's also the most unique and has the most "personality" (debatable, I know). Good or bad; It's a matter of taste. Just don't go in expecting the same level of polish and user friendly mainstreamness of Aria or the DS games.

But yeah, I do love it.

[Crying Freeman]

I used to dislike it, and still think it's deeply flawed, but I've come to the conclusion it's not that bad. Still my least favorite of the Metroidvanias in the series though. As like you I don't care for the music, probably mostly because of the scratchy quality, and I think the game is a bit too easy while being a little confusing at times.

Extremely confusing. I felt stupid going around the same areas in that game lol. Just gets so boring. I do like the boss rush and Maxim mode, not to mention playing as Simon in boss rush. Plus the dashing is really fun in it.

Btw, has anyone played the hacks for the Japanese version? They let you play as Simon, Mario, Megaman, and an evil sword weilding Juste in single player and it looks WICKED awesome!

[Crying Freeman]

HoD is kinda whimsical and psychedelic in a way and the two castles are somewhat confusing to navigate. But I love it nonethless. It's the strangest metroidvania IMO but it's also the most unique and has the most "personality" (debatable, I know). Good or bad; It's a matter of taste. Just don't go in expecting the same level of polish and user friendly mainstreamness of Aria or the DS games.

But yeah, I do love it.

Nobody can be wrong on an opinion, man, and I get what you mean by that "psychadelic" feel, especially in the underground areas. Hell, I really like Legends and admit it's flaws piss me off to no end lol.

[PFG9000]

I like Harmony quite a bit.  I did get a little bored with it the last time I played, but that's because I've played it soooo many times.  The same thing happens with SotN and Super Metroid, not that I would put Harmony in the same tier as those two.  It's too bad the music brings Harmony down so much though.  That seems to be the chief complaint, and it should never be a complaint in a Castlevania (that goes for you too, Lords of Shadow series).

[zangetsu468]

I feel like HoD is the CV game people complain a lot about for being a SOTN clone, unclear in its direction (where they player is supposed to go), bad graphics, bad music, low difficulty etc.
This doesn't so much annoy me, but I personally can say very similar things about much more beloved CV titles for which I feel people would automatically react in a negative manner.

The Good:
I place HoD up there for immersion. The first area of the Castle has a really catchy and memorable track that makes me feel immersed into that context of vampire folklore. I find this nostalgic and immersive. Not all the tracks are memorable but some are atmospheric, as is the Castle and the way it's progressed through. I actually also found the more goth/electric sounding-semi-bad quality tracks to be akin to something like Wu-Tang's beats that were purposely made with 'scratchy quality' like they were in some kind of old neglected basement buried like ancient artefacts.

The gameplay is good, fun to play and it learned from Cotm's mistake of not having a faster run/forward dash / backdash.

I never had issues on where I was supposed to go (though this seems to be a common issue)

Sprites are very colourful and characters stand out against the background.

Maxim is an interesting character.

The art is beautiful, one of my favourite.

The only game to do boss rush with 8 bit Simon, a nice touch imo.

The Bad
It's too easy, the game is broken with the use of sub weapons and spells. Maxim is OP also.
Gameplay is simple but also a bit simplistic. Strictly VK in a SOTN style game is a bit ott imo.   
The main thing the story has going for it is its reach back to CVII, which is an eerie game. It made the game feel creepy as it does when dealing with Dracula's body parts, good as this is it's latching onto previous success with CVII (story)/SOTN (Castle)

The Uncertain
I will say this as well as being open and vast, there's not a whole heap to do beside the main story.
You could really call it the Twilight Princess of Castlevania, a game which also has a 'dual world' aspect.

[coinilius]

It wasn't that long ago that I played HoD for the first time - and when I was playing it, I enjoyed it but I wasn't overly 'wowed' by it.  Their didn't seem to be enough variety between the two different castles and it felt a bit like it was 'going through the motions'  more than the other games I had played... which is particularly bad when it was the first of the Metroidvania's that I had actually played.  I did like it though - the story was good, the graphics were nice, it played perfectly fine.

But then, just a few games later I hit SotM and realized just how much HoD wants to be like it's older sibling.  And then I hit CotM and it has a similar story with whole jealous love... er, I mean friend being manipulated by Dracula/Dracula's evil, and it was also a Metroidvania where you just have a whip as your main weapon... even the idea of collecting Dracula's relics leans heavily on SotN and Simon's Quest (although I liked that call back).

All that said, I did like it and I think my first opinion of it still stands - a solid game but one that mostly feels like it's 'going through the motions.'

[zangetsu468]

I just want to add something.
Playing all of these games in context is more important to give a critical review. By this I also mean on the consoles they were intended to be played on.

In the context of GBA, Cotm is praised by all CV fans alike. Quite honestly it was revolutionary at the time of release, being a Metroidvania for GBA of all consoles. Being able to roam a castle and superjump/ slide your way around with a game that still embodied "classicvania" with its level of challenge was a step in the right direction.

One thing I'd like to touch upon - and maybe people have differing opinions - is the DSS card system.
I've played Cotm through twice, and on the first playthrough I collected a grand total of about 5-7 DSS cards, most of which did nothing when combined. No matter  how much I played, how many enemies I killed, DSS drops were never evident and I sometimes wonder if my game cartridge wasn't faulty or something. Any items to increase luck were equipped but to no avail.
I didn't mind this as I beat the game mostly using subweapons, and the only DSS abilities I had were:
Healing (albeit slowly)
Thorn Whip
Flame Whip/ Sword
Poison Cloud/ Whip
That was about it. On my play(s)through I didn't even really know what the cards were or whether they were of importance (prior to all things being on "the internet"). Still i finished the game and found it a good challenge. The characters and artwork were decent, the final boss was tough (particularly with the lack of DSS abilities) and the Coliseum was a fantastic challenge. the dual dragon boss was one of the more creative boss fights I've experienced.

Things that irked me were the visuals, not graphics but the dimness of the screen the gba suffered from, not cool when fighting bosses or platforming.

I know this is a 2dvania on gba but the sprites were fairly poor even for back then. Some of the enemies looked quite "flat" drawn completely side-on rather than with any depth (like "were-bear" or "arachne") and re-coloured from previous sprites, which although happens in CV the level of blatancy is more typical of the 3d Cv titles, namely LOI/ COD. Boss sprites were far superior imo.

Some of the music felt okay, but some was bad, some recycled from other CV's. I think the clocktower was my favourite.

I also felt like I had to griiiiiind to level up prior to the fight with Hugh, which I still maintain as one of the harder boss fights. Devils seemed to have a high amount of hp compared to previous enemies.

Lastly, the castle didn't feel overly immersive to me, it felt a little bit dark and somewhat dead. Maybe this was constriction of graphics, music or the plain fact that it was Carmilla's castle and not Dracula's. I don't know but it just didn't reach out and grab me the way SOTN's previously had.

I think in context as having Cotm as a predecessor, was HoD a better game as a successor?
It's subjective to how one defines Castlevania.

All these points I've mentioned above - some of which are issues - are they improved on in HoD?
Immersion (in general) - Yes
Character sprites (quality, graphics etc) - Yes
Graphics in general (brightness of sprites, screen etc) - Yes
Items drops or the like - Yes (not that it mattered as much in HoD)
Fairer in terms of challenge, grinding etc - No (too much so imo)
Music - Yes
Story - Much the same with throwbacks to previous entries
Artwork (not mentioned above) - Yes

Just my 2 cents, AoS>HoD>Cotm

[coinilius]

It really is a personal preference thing - but I do agree that context of the original consoles is important, as is context of when the games came out in relation to each other.  My play through order throws the second point out the window, but I have been playing on original hardware whenever i can... except, I played CotM and HoD on the DS, not on the original GBA.  But I felt like the Castle in CotM was much more immersive than the one in HoD, which was probably also because it was a lot easier and more enjoyable to just run around the CotM castle (well, easier in a navigational sense - CotM had more of a difficulty level than HoD, IMO).  And even if you played them in release order... HoD still feels more like a grab bag of elements from other games, put together expertly, but still with a 'be there, done that' feeling for me.

[zangetsu468]

I think for critical reviews, original consoles are important, however, whether you like the game better or not then I don't think it really matters what it's played on. I'd tried Cotm and HoD on roms prior to buying the physical copies, and I didn't even mind playing Cv on a keyboard (HoD being easier due to dashing) but I decided to buy the hard copies and I'm glad I did.
I think on today's standards playing them on a DS even for a critical review is fine, why reinvent the wheel and pedal backwards afterall.

And even if you played them in release order... HoD still feels more like a grab bag of elements from other games, put together expertly, but still with a 'be there, done that' feeling for me.

Well quite honestly every CV has reached back to another game and I do not say this lightly.

SOTN> CVII: An explorable world, collecting Dracula's remains (relics in SOTN)
COTM>SOTN: An explorable Castle
HOD>CVII/ COTM: Gathering Dracula's remains/ Similar story but with a potential 'love interest' driving the plot,
LOI>HOD: Character art designs/ story similar to HOD; Leon = Juste, Mathias = Maxim, a third interest Lydie/ Sara is involved and in danger.
AOS>SOTN: Less obvious but still an explorable castle, which some areas felt similar to SOTN. More original of the GBA titles.
COD>SOTN/CVII: Explorable world, connecting areas, leveling up, familiars and so forth.
LOS> OOE: The notion of "The order" trying to resurrect Dracula, Separate stages with a few alternate places to explore, as well as 1 Castle.

[coinilius]

Oh yes indeed, it's very hard to have such a long running series without having call backs to previous titles.  I mean, you can't even really have a series at all without call backs and reusing themes and elements.  HoD, to me, just didn't feel like it brought anything else that was truly new to the table though - even the whole Light Castle/Dark Castle angle is an incredibly over-used cliche in video games... but then, maybe that is just Legend of Zelda fatigue speaking, where the concept has been especially over-played!  Does it suck?  No, I don't think it sucks... it just feels a bit bland compared to other games in the series.

On a slightly different note - the inclusion of Maxim Mode was good, but I really wish they had taken it to the next level and added in some new dialogue and a new ending and made it a prequel to the main story of HoD.  That would have rocked!

[zangetsu468]

Oh yes indeed, it's very hard to have such a long running series without having call backs to previous titles.  I mean, you can't even really have a series at all without call backs and reusing themes and elements.  HoD, to me, just didn't feel like it brought anything else that was truly new to the table though - even the whole Light Castle/Dark Castle angle is an incredibly over-used cliche in video games... but then, maybe that is just Legend of Zelda fatigue speaking, where the concept has been especially over-played!  Does it suck?  No, I don't think it sucks... it just feels a bit bland compared to other games in the series.

The problem with Juste is that to the unattentive gamer he's basically Alucard with a whip and less memorable.

On a slightly different note - the inclusion of Maxim Mode was good, but I really wish they had taken it to the next level and added in some new dialogue and a new ending and made it a prequel to the main story of HoD.  That would have rocked!

Maxim is so OP and broken, but he's an awesome character.
It would've been cool, RE4 with Ada's game ("Separate Ways") did something really cool in explaining how she was in all the areas prior to Leon (not the Belmont!)

[coinilius]

It would've been cool, RE4 with Ada's game ("Separate Ways") did something really cool in explaining how she was in all the areas prior to Leon (not the Belmont!)

Yeah I like it when the extra modes go that extra mile and include actual stories or alternate stories/prequels.  I think the only two that actually do that, though, are in games I haven't gotten up to yet (Sisters Mode in PoR and Julius Mode in DoS).  Well, I guess there was Joachim Mode in LoI, but apart from it's alternate ending it is more just like Maxim Mode.

[zangetsu468]

Joachim mode is just really an alternate outcome which canonically would have to happen prior to any of the Leon/ Mathias hoohah. But it would never happen realistically as Walter was too powerful.

DoS' alternate mode makes the most sense canonically if an alternate outcome was to occur.