Topic: A plausible explanation for the Belmont family's disappearance

[Intersection]

What you're about read is actually what inspired the 1999 scenario I've been developing for a while now, which already has its own thread in the forums. So technically, this belongs in fan stuff, but I feel like it's actually a plausible enough explanation to deserve a spot in general discussion. It's a somewhat... poetic version of events, to say the least, but otherwise, it should be self-explanatory.

The part explaining the Grimoire's existence isn't particularly important, but otherwise I find this to be a pretty elegant solution that's whip-centric instead of Belmont-centric. Enjoy the read, and let me know what you think.

"
So [...] I wanted to present my take on the whole Belmont-whip device IGA left unexplained. I decided to look at it differently: instead of asking: "why couldn't the Belmonts touch the whip?", I asked: "why didn't the Belmonts touch the whip?". Admittedly, it was a more interesting option; it could be by choice and not by constraint that the whip stayed out of Belmont hands.

It's worth noting that the whip isn't just any ordinary whip; there's a woman's soul 'imbued' in it - a woman who sacrificed herself out of love and a yearning for justice. It wouldn't, then, be inappropriate to wonder what kind, devoted Sara would have felt when the whip she incarnated was used, century after century, to destroy anything and everything that stood in its way. What would she feel when the whip left the hands of the one man she trusted and loved and passed down through generations of sons who would grow less and less aware of her sacrifice and what it entailed? Sons who would eventually see in the whip nothing more than a source of power and, perhaps, become oblivious as to her very existence? Perhaps, then, would her soul within the whip slowly sink into darkness, into corruption, as her righteous fury and love were simply used for mindless destruction, and no longer understood, cherished, or cared for.

By giving up all that she was out of faith and devotion, then, Sara would have damned herself to an eternity of hatred and carnage in the hands of her own blood. Her growing corruption would eventually take hold of those who wielded the whip itself [...]. And so Richter, driven by a lust for power and glory, would lose his purpose under Shaft's dark influence. Upon awakening, he would finally look into the whip and discover an abomination that would fill him with dread. Hoping that what twisted filial love Dracula still held for Alucard would indefinitely delay his return, Richter resolved to end a legacy of sorrow that he knew had gone too far. Determined to set Sara's soul free, he shattered the whip and scattered its fragments across the continent. Finally, wanting no part of what he feared might eventually come, he sealed into an enchanted tome - the Grimoire - the memories of his family's past... as well as what he knew of its future.

But Sara's soul was not freed. It remained tethered to the whip, imprisoned within it, in utter confusion. After decades of agony, the two fragments of the whip were discovered by two separate families - the Morris family, and the Lecarde family. Not wanting to concede their share of a power they coveted, but wary, as time passed, of Dracula's eventual return, the two families devised an arcanic pact to reforge the whip and coerce its soul into accepting an unknown wielder. "Richter's memory" was thus a remnant of the last wielder a tormented Sara had trusted, and this vague memory was time and again crushed by the clans' attempts to subdue it. Yet as weak and confused it was, the whip would fight back. And so John Morris would succumb to the whip's corruption [...]
"

[Super Waffle]

Maybe they all became bakers like that guy from OOE.

[zangetsu468]

Maybe they all became bakers like that guy from OOE.

Aeon the chef.. Or Deity of Time?

SW,I'm assuming the Grimoire idea is part of your headcanon? I just don't see it myself.

A couple of issues I see with this theory:

1) The radio talk-e as far as I'm aware states that Richter stopped using the whip because he was ashamed.
2) At the end of AoS Julius says - in the English version - that he feels the "Whip's power fading" which is a close translation to Japanese according to Shiroi (this was translated in an earlier thread). If this is the case the power is in reference to Sara's soul's rage within the Vampire Killer. The Whip of Alchemy always had mystical powers prior to Sara's sacrifice in LOI. Therefore for the "Whip's power to fade" after Soma defeats Chaos and the return of the Dark Lord is subdued, there's no reason for Sara's rage to be at full force within the VK anymore. Therefore I believe the notion of the power fading is Sara's soul's rage being dormant after AoS (Also remember that in the alternate ending of AoS, Julius fights Soma. Julius had hidden the VK within Castlevania - sealed within the eclipse - to weaken it. This was due to the "whip's power" fueled by Sara's rage, which fades after AoS.)
3) By the time of OOE the Belmonts or at least their true lineage disappeared. This was because they didn't want to be found, them not touching the whip is secondary  or occurs secondarily to this imo.

I see the most likely order of events as follows:
- Richter is influenced by Shaft, ashamed that he is the first VK wielding of his clan to be influenced by dark powers and was temporarily the Lord of Castlevania.
- Richter and his direct lineage flee into hiding fearing Dracula's return or the influence of dark powers.

(click to show/hide)

- Ecclesia rises, but Barlowe is a nut who wants to resurrect Dracula, Shanoa destroys him with Dominus

- Richter directly/ indirectly passes the Vampire Killer onto Quincy Morris.
- The Belmonts continue training with whips but without the VK
- Dracula (novel)> Bloodlines/ The New Generation> POR occur
- The VK is passed from the Morris clan to someone close to the Belmonts; either a Belnades (Yoko's predecessor) or one of the Hakuba family (Mina's father, who had to do with the ritual of sealing Castlevania into the eclipse). Alucard is doubtful imo.
- At the battle of 1999 (Wind in POR states the Belmonts must not touch the VK until 1999) Julius has become so strong due to being the progeny of true Belmont lineage who trained incessantly without the use of the VK (remember in DoS Soma had to use magical seals to technically destroy some of the enemies [bosses] yet Julius couldn't but he was powerful enough, even with the VK's power having faded previously in AoS, to destroy the monsters' remains so that they could not regenerate.) Julius is passed the Vampire Killer prior to entering Castlevania and becomes an unstoppable force, tearing his way through Dracula's Castle and thereby permanently destroying the Dracula for good so that his centennial resurrection or other resurrections can not occur.**

**Side note: Many believe in SOTN The last of Dracula's humanity ascends to the afterlife/ realm beyond and doesn't return with his subsequent incarnations i.e. only the "evil" part of Dracula returns, which was something stated by Iga in an interview.

[theplottwist]

I think it'd be useful for some dudes here for you to mention that you're disregarding some information from the canon to build your story. This will help them read your plot with a more open-minded perspective. Otherwise you'll run on the same canon issues you faced with me xD

(click to show/hide)

**Side note: Many believe in SOTN The last of Dracula's humanity ascends to the afterlife/ realm beyond and doesn't return with his subsequent incarnations i.e. only the "evil" part of Dracula returns, which was something stated by Iga in an interview.

Just want to add something: IGA said that the "evil is amplified". This would imply, I think, that Dracula's good side is actually dragged into resurrecting against its will, and ultimatelly has no say on Dracula's actions due to being "shrunken". e.g: Both parts are there, but the evil part is the one with the final word in every decision due to having been "amplified".

But this is how I, personally, understood what IGA said. This is because I imagine you can't "split" both sides of soul like that and have each acting like a soul on its own (enough for one to actually ascend, and the other to descent, esssentially creating two Draculas). Only one part - the evil one - doesn't constitute a whole "soul", but only a fraction of one;

But indeed it's also possible the good side is gone. This is only what I imagined IGA meant.

Using spoiler tags here because this has nothing to do with Intersection's thread, and I don't want to waste enormous spaces with it.

[KaZudra]

I really like this.

Only problem with LoI is that everything conceived with it's story, it's plot never saw fruition of being relavent to the entire "plot" to castlevania, especially in the IGA era when the 1999 war practically becomes shoehorned in after the Ps2/GBA era.

LoI was a fantastic game and unfortunately aged much better than most 3dvanias out there (Sorry CoD), but to tie in the actual origins of the whip into a major point in the plot is actually brilliant. I myself wanted to bring reincarnation into a couple of fangame/fanfics involving Simon's or Leon's reincarnation being favored by the whip instead of an actual Belmont. At this point the future of Castlevania is in our hands, the fans. the people. If Konami want's to drive all of it's wonderful IP's into the ground, so be it, but we can make a difference.

Enough of the rambling, There has to be a Buu/Uub element in all this, the destruction of Dracula and reincarnated into Soma wasn't an accident. In order for Dracula to be truly destroyed he must be both saparted from his castle, and what remains of the good which only Leon, Elizabetha, Lisa, and Alucard has seen. It actually must be emotional for Alucard to do this because not only is he ending the Prince of Darkness, he's also ending the life of his Father, the father he himself has looked up to to honor, and not the monster the rest of the world as known to hate.

[zangetsu468]

(click to show/hide)

Just want to add something: IGA said that the "evil is amplified". This would imply, I think, that Dracula's good side is actually dragged into resurrecting against its will, and ultimatelly has no say on Dracula's actions due to being "shrunken". e.g: Both parts are there, but the evil part is the one with the final word in every decision due to having been "amplified".

But this is how I, personally, understood what IGA said. This is because I imagine you can't "split" both sides of soul like that and have each acting like a soul on its own (enough for one to actually ascend, and the other to descent, esssentially creating two Draculas). Only one part - the evil one - doesn't constitute a whole "soul", but only a fraction of one;

But indeed it's also possible the good side is gone. This is only what I imagined IGA meant.

This is not me debating your point, though I'd like to point out for interest's sake that there are certain themes in Japanese mythology which use the 'soul split', I actually ran into a theorist using this about 15 years ago when Zelda theorising became a thing. The theory had to do with the fact that LOZ characters were reincarnated in every game yet the Sleeping Zelda (then considered the first) could not have been the same soul as subsequent Zeldas, hence there was a split or think of it as two bodies "sharing" one spirit. I can not for the life of me remember the term, but maybe someone who is more farmiliar with Japanese history/ mythology can recall this.

I believe something of an actual 'split' I have seen several times in Japanese popular culture/ media. Examples are Legend of Zelda characters (one being) using the "soul split" or dual incarnation to escape a realm which is sealed:
-Ganondorf/ Agahnim
-Oceaus/ Ocean King

Another example would be Kami/ Piccolo in DB literally splitting into 2 beings "good" and "evil", but I know DB has some Chinese mythology, nonetheless it is Eastern in origin. I'm unsure how much of this is taken directly from Japanese Mythology. (Oolong the pig shapeshifting was taken from Chinese Mythology I believe)

In terms of Dracula and Iga's comments it seems that either way the good or "human side" post SOTN has been dwarfed by the evil side. The biggest thing that makes me believe Dracula's soul didn't 'split' in essence is Soma.

[X]

From what I've gathered the human soul can bi-locate ie. be in two different places at once. But the soul itself cannot be split in half. That would indefinitely end the existence of the soul. The Japanese texts could have been referring to bi-location instead, and not actual segregation. It all depends on the writer's point of view of personal spiritual interpretation. And we also have to remember that the soul is not where evil is housed, it's the human ego. I could see the ego of Dracula being raised with the body for every post SotN resurrection. That would be easier to believe as the ego itself is part of the human physical makeup and not that of the soul. So while the soul resides in heaven, the ego is rampaging on earth doing whatever it desires.

[zangetsu468]

From what I've gathered the human soul can bi-locate ie. be in two different places at once. But the soul itself cannot be split in half. That would indefinitely end the existence of the soul. The Japanese texts could have been referring to bi-location instead, and not actual segregation.

Yes, "bi-location" is a better term than sharing, this is what I was referring to. Thanks for clarifying this.

It all depends on the writer's point of view of personal spiritual interpretation. And we also have to remember that the soul is not where evil is housed, it's the human ego. I could see the ego of Dracula being raised with the body for every post SotN resurrection.

That makes sense, but the ego must have its own sentience and/or intelligence with intent. Otherwise it can't be doing things such as procuring real estate as per the Dracula novel. There is still required a level of both of these attributes to manifest a sentient being who is smart enough to "Soul Steal" Death during the final battle of POR.

That would be easier to believe as the ego itself is part of the human physical makeup and not that of the soul.

Slightly off topic but how exactly is the ego a physical manifestation? It can manifest into physical actions, but the ego is thought to exist outside of the physical body and the conscious mind.
Your ego can manifest into actions if you say for example hit someone or  pull them out of the way from a moving vehicle, but it's not a physical object.

Do you mean Dracula's ego becomes part of his resurrected body, and if so where does his sentience/ intelligence come from?

[X]

Slightly off topic but how exactly is the ego a physical manifestation? It can manifest into physical actions, but the ego is thought to exist outside of the physical body and the conscious mind.
Your ego can manifest into actions if you say for example hit someone or  pull them out of the way from a moving vehicle, but it's not a physical object.

Do you mean Dracula's ego becomes part of his resurrected body, and if so where does his sentience/ intelligence come from?

I'll try to clarify this as best I can as I am no expert. I know only what I know.

The human ego is a product of the mind--the physical mind--the current identity of said individual. It does not and cannot exist otherwise. It is extremely limited, flawed, and primitive in behavior. It is also very manipulative. Now it's true that a human body cannot live without a soul inhibiting/governing it. But the ego is part of the body and helps make up our current life identity. Without our ego, our true soul identity would be all there is. If not properly governed the ego can become the worst of all enemies we, as individuals, would ever have to face. I'm sure you've heard of the age-old saying "We are our own worst enemy". The ego only serves the purpose for the current life it was designed for. And when said individual dies, the ego dies with it.

However since we're talking about Castlevania here, and with all it's magical possibilities, I'd say it could be very possible for only Dracula's ego (with the help of dark magic involved) to become more then it is, and govern Dracula's  body. HoD is a good example since the power of Dracula's remains brought fourth sentience in Maxim's ego (coupled with the dark energies) thus giving rise to a separate being entirely. And this entity was strong enough to take over Maxim for brief periods of time until it used the remains to create a body for itself at the end. The Dracula Wraith.

[zangetsu468]

I'll try to clarify this as best I can as I am no expert. I know only what I know.

The human ego is a product of the mind--the physical mind--the current identity of said individual. It does not and cannot exist otherwise. It is extremely limited, flawed, and primitive in behavior. It is also very manipulative. Now it's true that a human body cannot live without a soul inhibiting/governing it. But the ego is part of the body and helps make up our current life identity. Without our ego, our true soul identity would be all there is. If not properly governed the ego can become the worst of all enemies we, as individuals, would ever have to face. I'm sure you've heard of the age-old saying "We are our own worst enemy". The ego only serves the purpose for the current life it was designed for. And when said individual dies, the ego dies with it.

I don't agree with this. If Dracula's ego comes from his physical mind, and he is resurrected again and again, his ego would be different each time he's resurrected. Aside from the example of HoD (which is another being spawned from the chaos within Maxim aka his suppressed desires + Dracula's remains), there's probably few instances where Dracula doesn't know who the Belmont clan are. ROB and BR are prime examples of this, he burns Richter's village, kidnaps his betrothed and her sister and 2 other women, and brainwashes Soleiyu. His thoughts and memories have to have their impetus grounded in something, which has to be his consciousness. Whether one believes this is part of his spirit/ soul or not is a separate debate, however the thoughts and survival mechanisms of ego, however primal, need to have precedence and logic for something. Otherwise he would be a creature roaming the earth trying to survive, not the Dark Lord who curses and awakens chaos in the hearts of the people of Wallachia and knows thy enemy. Again the ego's manipulation depends on the mind and characteristics of the person, not all ego is manipulative and so forth - it is a survival/ defense mechanism to allow survival of the fittest. Dracula does not need to cover the world in chaos to survive, he needs this to exact his revenge on humanity for killing Lisa, just as he previously needed to exact his revenge against God for killing Elisabetha.

http://nichegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/timeline-side2.jpg The other issue I take is that Iga's timeline also states that the Solar eclipse ritual performed by the Hakuba clan, trapping Dracula and Castlevania in there is stated to be "this which ultimately seals Dracula's fate by destroying him and ending his regeneration cycle". Therefore I interpret that as long as Dracula's soul is within this realm, it can be resurrected be it by centennial or preliminary resurrection. However, without this he can not be brought back to life. His 'soul' as the Dark Lord could not resurrect by means of ritual, centenary or otherwise, which is why his soul could only be born again as Soma Cruz and his powers as Dark Lord could only be reawakened in 2035 when he was reunited with Castlevania.

However since we're talking about Castlevania here, and with all it's magical possibilities, I'd say it could be very possible for only Dracula's ego (with the help of dark magic involved) to become more then it is, and govern Dracula's  body. HoD is a good example since the power of Dracula's remains brought fourth sentience in Maxim's ego (coupled with the dark energies) thus giving rise to a separate being entirely. And this entity was strong enough to take over Maxim for brief periods of time until it used the remains to create a body for itself at the end. The Dracula Wraith.

Then who is the being who is sealed in 1999 if not the actual Dark Lord, Dracula?

[X]

I don't agree with this. If Dracula's ego comes from his physical mind, and he is resurrected again and again, his ego would be different each time he's resurrected.

Not really since its a 'resurrection of the same' and not being 'reborn as a different person'. Dracula never changes until his actual rebirth as Soma Cruz. A different life in a different time and place.

Aside from the example of HoD (which is another being spawned from the chaos within Maxim aka his suppressed desires + Dracula's remains), there's probably few instances where Dracula doesn't know who the Belmont clan are.

It's not chaos that was spawned from Maxim. It was his dark desires (the ego) coupled with the remains that gave rise the the separate spirit. Chaos is of itself not evil. It is simply chaos--the opposite of order. One of the two governing entities of our universe. And so far as I can tell, the only time where Dracula did not know who the Belmonts were was in HoD. But that was because Dracula wasn't in the game. It was Dracula's body being inhibited by Maxim's evil twin spirit.

His thoughts and memories have to have their impetus grounded in something, which has to be his consciousness.

Yes and I agree. However do not forget about the sub-conscious or the super-conscious. The super-conscious is of the soul and not the body. While I don't know what the sub-conscious really is or what it represents, it could be considered the bridge between the two.

Whether one believes this is part of his spirit/ soul or not is a separate debate, however the thoughts and survival mechanisms of ego, however primal, need to have precedence and logic for something.

Logic is not part of the ego. It is something unto itself--a governing force. The ego is simply the raw emotion and is quick to get out of hand unless strictly disciplined.  And yes logic is required of the mind.

Again the ego's manipulation depends on the mind and characteristics of the person, not all ego is manipulative and so forth - it is a survival/ defense mechanism to allow survival of the fittest.

There is only one ego within the mind. Other then that there is the individual's true self: The soul. The ego must be governed or else the individual get's out of hand. And yes the ego is required in order to survived, but again, it must be governed. If there is only ego what do you think the end result would be? Raw emotion--uncontrolled and undisciplined. This is where logic comes in to play. It allows the individual to control and govern their ego. Logic has no emotion as you know. It is simply a guiding force of calculations.

Then who is the being who is sealed in 1999 if not the actual Dark Lord, Dracula?

You've already answered the question:

The other issue I take is that Iga's timeline also states that the Solar eclipse ritual performed by the Hakuba clan, trapping Dracula and Castlevania in there is stated to be "this which ultimately seals Dracula's fate by destroying him and ending his regeneration cycle". Therefore I interpret that as long as Dracula's soul is within this realm, it can be resurrected be it by centennial or preliminary resurrection. However, without this he can not be brought back to life. His 'soul' as the Dark Lord could not resurrect by means of ritual, centenary or otherwise, which is why his soul could only be born again as Soma Cruz and his powers as Dark Lord could only be reawakened in 2035 when he was reunited with Castlevania.

And I agree with it.

[theplottwist]

I'm under the impression that I caused this thread to derail horrendously with my first response xD But I also want to offer my perspective on the subject of this conversation.

Do you guys mind if I start another thread to discuss this? Mostly so we can properly focus on Intersection's proposed subject?

[zangetsu468]

One important thing that has come to mind (regardless of a slightly askew discussion) is that Julius in AOS mentions the VK's power (Sara's rage) fading but he also states he purposely left it in the castle in 1999 in order to weaken it. Of course he'd used it to defeat Dracula beforehand, he therefore left it in the Castle after this, left the Castle and the Hakuba clan performed their Solar eclipse sealing ritual. Therefore to defeat Dracula and continue to weaken Castlevania, Sara's soul and her rage were within the VK.

[X]

I'm under the impression that I caused this thread to derail horrendously with my first response xD But I also want to offer my perspective on the subject of this conversation.

Do you guys mind if I start another thread to discuss this? Mostly so we can properly focus on Intersection's proposed subject?

Sure, why not. I think we've pretty much finished talking about it here which will hopefully save the thread train, lol.

One important thing that has come to mind (regardless of a slightly askew discussion) is that Julius in AOS mentions the VK's power (Sara's rage) fading but he also states he purposely left it in the castle in 1999 in order to weaken it. Of course he'd used it to defeat Dracula beforehand, he therefore left it in the Castle after this, left the Castle and the Hakuba clan performed their Solar eclipse sealing ritual. Therefore to defeat Dracula and continue to weaken Castlevania, Sara's soul and her rage were within the VK.

Maybe it was important to leave the whip inside of the castle in order to help end Dracula's regeneration cycle permanently. Unfortunately IGA never gave any real explanation for this plot element in the game's history texts. I also feel that the reason why the rage in the Vampirekiller was subsiding was due to the chaotic influence having been severed, and Castlevania itself being swallowed up into the eclipse once more. If there is a threat in the world the VK will let the user (Belmont) know about it, and probably where to locate it. I'm sure this is how all members of the family were alerted to Dracula's rise every time.

[zangetsu468]

Maybe it was important to leave the whip inside of the castle in order to help end Dracula's regeneration cycle permanently. Unfortunately IGA never gave any real explanation for this plot element in the game's history texts. I also feel that the reason why the rage in the Vampirekiller was subsiding was due to the chaotic influence having been severed, and Castlevania itself being swallowed up into the eclipse once more. If there is a threat in the world the VK will let the user (Belmont) know about it, and probably where to locate it. I'm sure this is how all members of the family were alerted to Dracula's rise every time.

Exactly. Without Sara's soul, the VK = Whip of Alchemy. There are plenty of magical weapons in the Castlevaniaverse, but the VK is the only one which contains the tainted soul of one which trusts its wielder. That's why I'm saying if he left it in there, my money is that Sara's soul is also in the VK.

Iga didn't fully explain things but he left some clues, which is why I also believe the sealing ritual and possibly being separated from the VK had to do with Julius losing his memory. As well as it being in his in game character bio in AoS that his memory loss has to do with the battle of 1999, he made a conscious decision after defeating Dracula to leave the VK in Castlevania. During his amnesia Julius was struck with fear upon hearing the name of Dracula without knowing why. Then all of a sudden he started retrieving his memories while inside Castlevania, specifically he mentions to Soma that his memories have come flooding back. Perhaps it was separation from the VK that he temporarily lost his memories, maybe he nearly didn't make it out of the Castle during the sealing ritual and his memories were sealed in the eclipse with the Castle, or maybe he learned of his ancestor Richter who in his moment of vulnerability after his fight with Dracula was swayed by darkness (Shaft) and asked the Hakuba clan to perform a ritual in order to suppress his memories.