Topic: The Hunter Whip

[coinilius]

In the event that this game is part of your head canon then why would you not just assume the "hunter whip" is the unawakened VK?

If the Baldwin> Graves were around during the time the Belmonts weren't this makes sense without a convoluted explanation. POR is grounds enough to support this theory.

Why would I assume that it is?  The Vampire Killer is off with the disappeared Belmont's or in the possession of the Morris clan and because in my head canon there is an awesome game that takes place before CotM set in 1820 which tells the story of Nathan's parents and Morris Baldwin's battle with an early resurrected Dracula where they create the Hunter Whip as a replacement weapon for the VK, an alternative method of fighting Dracula (like how they were looking for alternative methods of fighting Dracula in OoE).

[zangetsu468]

I've read through plottwist's reply and I also agree with his stance.
The most similar examples in other games are in LOI Leon can pair subweapons with orbs to create powerful (magical) attacks which have nothing to do with the VK. The orbs aren't useable because Leon has the VK, they're a separate thing altogether. Same goes for the spell books in HoD which are paired with subweapons. The only things Juste can do is alter the tip of the VK.

The DSS cards are dropped by Dracula's minions, maybe perhaps they harbour their own powers which manifest in the form of cards.

If these cards were specific to the whip then there'd be a slot system like materia in FFVII or something of the like which resembles this in the menu.

DSS cards also seem to resemble tarot cards which reference Astrology, notice the DSS Action cards range from planets Mercury>Pluto inclusive which is indeed reflective of the solar system. I'm not inclined to believe these are attached to the whip, because nothing in the game or the manual suggests this.

Why would I assume that it is?  The Vampire Killer is off with the disappeared Belmont's or in the possession of the Morris clan and because in my head canon there is an awesome game that takes place before CotM set in 1820 which tells the story of Nathan's parents and Morris Baldwin's battle with an early resurrected Dracula where they create the Hunter Whip as a replacement weapon for the VK, an alternative method of fighting Dracula (like how they were looking for alternative methods of fighting Dracula in OoE).

Why would you assume it isn't when every previous game has featured the same whip pertaining to a Vampire hunter actually killing Dracula? There are only a few constants in the Castlevania games (not LOS) some of the main ones which are Dracula, Belmonts and the VK itself.

Eric Lecarde states in POR that Dracula is thought to resurrect in the year 1999, the Belmonts are not supposed to touch the VK until that time.

Someone's headcanon can be whatever it is, but Ecclesia is weak reasoning. Barlowe has the vessel to Dracula's soul and admits to Shanoa that his true purpose was to resurrect Dracula using Shanoa as a sacrifice(via Dominus) to destroy the vessel i.e. the order was a front for his resurrection, not his destruction. This was clearly explained in the game. Granted the prologue mentions organisations rising to stave off the resurrection of Dracula, but it doesn't go into detail and the prologue is later debunked by the ingame story in the context of Ecclesia.

If it is included in someone's canon that there just so happens there was another whip that could be used to defeat Dracula, I find this to be a stretch. Leon couldn't even defeat Walter with the Whip of Alchemy as powered up as it was until

(click to show/hide)

Sara donated her tainted soul to create the VK

. Assuming we say COTM is a canon entry (which I personally don't believe) nobody is going to convince anyone that a simple "Whip of Alchemy" can defeat Dracula when it couldn't scratch Walter, because Walter's soul/ power is only 1 known portion of Dracula's power.
If Walter's power was enough to best Leon (with the VK) then Leon would have died fighting Walter. If Mathias' power with Walter's soul absorbed was enough to kill Leon (with the VK), he would have killed him there and then. Walter could have destroyed WOA Leon but not VK Leon.

In addition, no "Belmont" or descendant in the canon timeline has defeated Dracula without using the VK aside from Quincy Morris who "kept him at bay" as per Iga's timeline, meaning

(click to show/hide)

killed him before he could resurrect in the Dracula novel

and hence wouldn't have required it. And if you observe the story in COTM, Morris is passing down the whip to the next heir is operating the exact way that the Belmont clan operate, and the Morris clan (who are descendants of the Belmonts)

That's my issue with what is being proposed, there are contradictions and much simpler explanations like the VK/ HW going from:
Richter> Morris > Nathan> Reinhardt> Quincy> John> Jonathan> Julius
Rather than saying a brand new clan/ order of hunters was created etc based off information which is not well substantiated.
Occam's razor is getting thrown out the window along with the kitchen sink.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

That's my issue with what is being proposed, there are contradictions and much simpler explanations like the VK/ HW going from:
Richter> Morris > Nathan> Reinhardt> Quincy> John> Jonathan> Julius

What I'm arguing is a Gaidenverse timeline closer to

[Vampire Killer is somehow created]
   |
   |
   V
Sonia
   |
   |
   V
Sonia's son
   |
   |
   V
[Unknown]
   |
   |
   V
Simon
   |
   |
   V
[Dracula's curse kills Simon]  --------------------------> [Hunter Whip is created]
   |                                                                                            |
   |                                                                                            |
   V                                                                                           V
Schneider family                                                                     Morris
   |                                                                                            |
   |                                                                                            |
   V                                                                                           V
Reinhardt                                                                              Nathan
   |                                                                                           
   |                                                                                           
   V                                                                                           
[unknown successor]                                                             

I simply assume that the COTM Timeline has certain similarities to, but is not a 1:1 copy of, the existing Castlevania canon. Sonia's presence alone would guarantee it.

If the Hunter Whip was really meant to be the Vampire Killer, I'm fairly certain it would be called that, but the Belmonts and the Vampire Killer don't get so much as a mention in the game. That was my first clue that they are not the same thing. Even if it were in its sealed state, the Vampire Killer's identity is a not-insignificant detail that I find it impossible to think Morris, Hugh, or Nathan could conceivably be blind to, especially all three of them at once. You'd also think Dracula or Carmilla would have noticed and made some sort of reference to Nathan being a "pretender to a greater legacy" or somesuch.

There's NOTHING in game other than the style of weapon to suggest it's the Vampire Killer and, as I have pointed out, plenty of evidence (even if much of it is circumstantial) that it is something separate, but similar.

[coinilius]

There is a case that can be made for Dracula not being at full strength in Circle of the Moon (and yes I am aware that it can be picked apart) - he was sealed at the start of the game by the previous events of 1820, he says that he isn't at full power and needs the rite which was initiated by Camilla using the combination of the full moon and Morris Baldwin, he says at the end 'I need my full power' before teleporting away into wherever the final battle takes place (after you have disrupted the ritual)... so for purposes of my head canon there is enough wiggle room for me for the whip defeating a not-at-full-power Dracula.

Head canon is head canon, not real canon, after all.

This is just how I like to view the game in relation to the series in the comfort of my own play through, not trying to convince anyone else to change their minds.  The reason I suggest that for myself is because it has interesting story potential, and to me feels like something that ties kind of nicely into the prologue of Order of Ecclesia, and it doesn't get in the way of any details of the order of secession of the Vampire Killer whip if they are ever released, by side-stepping the issue.  It's a different whip, it got lost to history afterwards.  But hey, if it was revealed that CotM was part of the timeline and the Hunter Whip was the Vampire Killer, that would be cool, I wouldn't have a problem with that direction if Konami wanted to go there (I doubt they will be doing any revisiting of CotM anytime soon, however, as much as I would enjoy it).  This is just my fun head canon, which I have been open about the whole time.

It's only by thinking about Circle of the Moon in relation to the canon games that any of this is an issue anyway - taken strictly as a side story and not part of the main timeline, there is nothing to suggest in game that any of the regular Belmont or Vampire Killer mythology exists in the universe of CotM.  Officially, I would say that CotM and the Hunter Whip are just like your original comment on the matter, Zangetsu.  As a side story it is just it's own entry into the series, and a very enjoyable one at that, IMO.

About Ecclesia though:

(click to show/hide)

Also yes Ecclesia is about resurrecting Dracula... but it was set up 'publicly' to try and defeat Dracula, and the prologue mentions many organisations made with the same goal, but were dissolved when they couldn't deliver the goods.  That part of the prologue isn't debunked, nothing about Ecclesia being a front for resurrecting Dracula means that other organisations and other counter measures weren't tried out as well.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I would like to point out that debates like this were probably had by Iga's staff prior to his axing of Legends, the 2 CV64 games, and COTM from canon when Iga realized that placing these games made no logical sense in relation to the others.

If you try to argue Circle in the context of the main canon, you're going to come up short every time because it just doesn't fit right.

Hence my arguing for the Gaidenverse timeline involving the axed games with only the original Castlevania being shared between the two for certain. In that context, Circle makes perfect sense, especially if we run with the idea that Simon didn't manage to cure the Curse in time as the reason the Belmonts aren't running around in COTM, CV64 and Legacy, and how the whip came to be in the possession of the Schneiders to begin with; there simply were no direct heirs to the Belmont lineage to take up the job anymore.

[zangetsu468]

@Coinilius I understand your reasoning. The only thing I will say - and this is a bit of a side note to OOE - is that we the gamer know very little regarding Ecclesia. So far as we know the only members are Barlowe, Albus and Shanoa. Presumably there were other members before, maybe some who assisted Barlowe and seaking Occult knowledge about Dracula, or obtaining and transporting/ creating such a vessel into their headquarters. However, one can only assume because little information is given, so we don't have much to go off. (The vessel seems to be something pre-existing imo which I personally believe is the Crimson Stone.)

I do agree that in context of COTM there is no suggestion to the main timeline being referenced. All I'm saying is that trying to fit it in without the whips being the same imho would create issues.

@SterlingArcher I'm not in total disagreement, although I consider HC and COTM the most loosely placed of CV titles, COTM could still theoretically fit into my Sonia Belmont timeline (the alternate timeline to Iga's) where The Whip is passed from:
Sonia>Simon>Desmond>Reinhardt>Richter (from XX/ Vampire's Kiss)

[coinilius]

Hey Zangetsu, just some quick thoughts - Desmond pretty much has to be before Simon, as Order of Shadows is said to be set in the late 1600's  - Castlevania is set in 1691 and Simon's Quest in 1698.  For Desmond to be active in the late 1600's and after Simon then Order of Shadows would have to take place in 1699.  Unless you're assuming it doesn't take place in the late 1600's?  The date was only given in a creator interview I believe, never actually in game.

About Ecclesia - i still don't see how Ecclesia being

(click to show/hide)

created to bring back Drac

means that there wasn't other organisations (separate to Ecclesia and what they were doing) as well that tried and failed to find counter measures against Dracula?  That part of the intro seems to me like it is unaffected by any revelations in the game.  Totally agree that not much information is given on the background, organisation structure etc on Ecclesia.

[zangetsu468]

Hey Zangetsu, just some quick thoughts - Desmond pretty much has to be before Simon, as Order of Shadows is said to be set in the late 1600's  - Castlevania is set in 1691 and Simon's Quest in 1698.  For Desmond to be active in the late 1600's and after Simon then Order of Shadows would have to take place in 1699.  Unless you're assuming it doesn't take place in the late 1600's?  The date was only given in a creator interview I believe, never actually in game.

About Ecclesia - i still don't see how Ecclesia being

(click to show/hide)

created to bring back Drac

means that there wasn't other organisations (separate to Ecclesia and what they were doing) as well that tried and failed to find counter measures against Dracula?  That part of the intro seems to me like it is unaffected by any revelations in the game.  Totally agree that not much information is given on the background, organisation structure etc on Ecclesia.

Just a note that my post came up chopped up for some reason, I had to re-edit in case it didn't make sense. This is really weird as I always skim over to make certain it's at least legible. Anyway back to the topic..

While Castlevania does take place in 1691 (the canon version of events being Castlevania Chronicles) I'm placing OOS in a separate timeline as per Iga's intention for a few reasons:
1) It's Iga's intention that it was a side story
2) I consider SCIV another instance of Simon facing Dracula in the alternate timeline as it's not included on the Iga timeline.
    There is no specific year given for when SCIV takes place, therefore I place it sometime after Legends, and this would be well before the year
    of 1691, probably the next resurrection after Sonia defeats him. The prologue to SCIV sounds as if Dracula has been defeated before.)
3) In OOS only form 1 Dracula is fought and the Castle doesn't crumble. The alternate timeline with 64/LOD have a theme where Old man Dracula is the the Guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit. In the non canon endings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b89hgAM7zAc for example) where Dracula's soul Guardian/ Old man Drac is defeated, the castle does not crumble which correlates with OOS' ending of why the Castle doesn't crumble and why Desmond only faces form 1 Drac / Old Man Drac, who is in fact the Guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit.
4) Desmond looks like Reinhardt so 3 makes sense to me.

About Eccelsia, no it doesn't mention there aren't other organisations, it just gives the player very little to note about other organisations. It does say other clans existed, granted but it focuses on Ecclesia whose actual focus is Dracula's revival. Therefore, trying to guess what the other clans were actually up to when the Belmonts were missing is too wishy washy imo. We can assume there were other clans at some point, but whether they were motivated by good or evil intentions is 50/50.  I'm not saying it lessens your premise for a headcanon, it's just very much vague to me so I wouldn't be basing mine off of it.

[coinilius]

Ah now I can see the reasoning with Order of Shadows - interestingly enough, there is a

(click to show/hide)

'statue' of Haunted Castle Simon in Medusa's lair in OoS, if that gives you any more fodder for your theories.

On OoE - I think it's safe to assume that the other organisations are exactly how they were presented in the opening - other organisations that tried and failed to create countermeasures against Dracula.  Otherwise it is just over thinking things, IMO.  Sure, if they ever explore that plot point they could expand them out to be doing whatever they wanted, but as it stands, I see no reason not to take that at face value.  Organisations tried, they failed.  IMO, it isn't 'wishy washy' as to what they were up to - they were trying to find ways to stop Dracula, they just couldn't.

Head canons have been based on far flimsier pretenses so I am not very worried 

Speaking of head canons, your reference to the vessel Dracula's remains being sealed in during OoE as being the Crimson Stone is a theory which we discussed once before, in another CotM (and OoE) based thread (where I was discussing how I thought that, after starting OoE, it actually helped make CotM feel MORE like it could be part of the main timeline, to me).

[zangetsu468]

Ah now I can see the reasoning with Order of Shadows - interestingly enough, there is a

(click to show/hide)

'statue' of Haunted Castle Simon in Medusa's lair in OoS, if that gives you any more fodder for your theories.

Interesting, will have to look into that. Perhaps I can merge two Simons (HC and SCIV into 1 timeline)

Speaking of head canons, your reference to the vessel Dracula's remains being sealed in during OoE as being the Crimson Stone is a theory which we discussed once before, in another CotM (and OoE) based thread (where I was discussing how I thought that, after starting OoE, it actually helped make CotM feel MORE like it could be part of the main timeline, to me).

I'm not sure if I was involved or ever read it, any chance you'd have a link?

[coinilius]

Yep, you were definitely involved zangetsu!  Here is a link to the thread:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8270.0.html

Hopefully it refreshes your memory 

[zangetsu468]

Yep, you were definitely involved zangetsu!  Here is a link to the thread:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8270.0.html

Hopefully it refreshes your memory 

I do recall, cheers for that

[zangetsu468]

Ah now I can see the reasoning with Order of Shadows - interestingly enough, there is a

(click to show/hide)

'statue' of Haunted Castle Simon in Medusa's lair in OoS, if that gives you any more fodder for your theories.

Potentially it does and the reasons are below, depending on what the statue means, and why it's there in the first place.

I heard Iga didn't want OOS inserted into the timeline, where as the the other creator did because he thought Iga was too strict with his "timeline guidelines".

For the following scenarios I am still assuming OOS takes place outside of the main timeline as per the established canon.

Scenario (A)
- The Statue is there to remove OOS from the main timeline (referencing HC Simon)
- HC's Simon was the son of Sonia, the Legends ending states that her child will rise to face Dracula.
- He defeated Dracula once prior to Desmond, and for some reason a statue of him was erected/ manifested in Medusa's lair when Castlevania appeared.
- This placement allows VK/ XX to fit at the end of the timeline as its prologue states "Hundreds of years after Simon Belmont defeated Dracula." (basically switching HC with SCIV)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                   
                               Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 
                                           \
                                            \
                                             SCIV>>>>>/>>>>COTM


Scenario (Bi) - The Mindf*** Loop
- The Statue places OOS in the existing HC timeline
- Simon from HC went to face Dracula but lost when he was turned to stone by Medusa's gaze, along with the VK.
- If HC Simon wins instead of losing to Medusa, SCIV happens after HC and the same Simon defeats Dracula again i.e.   
  HC>SCIV>LOD>64>VK
- The "Hunter Whip" was then born as with a new clan descended from the Belmonts (partly by blood, but not by name)
- Desmond faces and defeats Dracula with the "Hunter Whip", not the VK.
- Dracula perishes but Castlevania does not fall.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                                   
                              Legends>SCIV>LOD>64>VK
                                           /  l
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 
                                           \  l
                                            \ l                                                                                 
                                             HC>OOS>COTM 
                                             
                                                                   
Scenario (Bii)
- The Statue places OOS in the existing HC timeline
- Simon from HC went to face Dracula and won. 
- COTM is not necessarily connected to HC>OOS
- Dracula perishes but Castlevania does not fall (because there was supposed to be a sequel.)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                   
                              Legends>SCIV>LOD>64>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 
                                           \
                                            \
                                             HC>OOS>/>COTM

Scenario (Bii) - version 2
- Same as Bii except HC>OOS>LOD>64 is its own timeline
- Legends>SCIV>VK is its own timeline
- COTM is its own timeline

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                   
                                              COTM
                                              /
                              Legends>SCIV>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 
                                           \
                                            \
                                             HC>OOS>LOD>64

Scenario (C)
- Merging of elements from A and B
- HC Simon is Sonia's son, defeats Dracula, a statue commemorating this manifests in Medusa's lair because: irony.
- Desmond only defeats The Guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit c.1666, who remains dead until either c.1691 or 1752 (100 years prior to CV 64 when

(click to show/hide)

Malus becomes Dracula

- In 1691/ 1752, Dracula's spirit actually awakens from it's slumber (with no Guardian protecting it)
- SCIV Simon (another Simon or Simon II) faces the real Dracula and defeats him.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                                               
                                                                               COTM
                                                                                /
                              Legends>HC>OOS>>>SCIV>LOD>64>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 

Scenario D
- Merge elements of A-C and assume Desmond Richter from VK/ XX is using the "Hunter Whip"

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                                                                                           
                              Legends>HC>OOS>>>SCIV>COTM>LOD>64>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 


Scenario E
Nothing happens because the statue doesn't mean anything (except OOS not being canon) and my timeline remains because I'm a boss:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                   
                                Legends>SCIV>OOS>LOD>64>VK
                                            /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS     
                                            \
                                             \
                                              HC>>>>>/>>>>COTM