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Offline Dracula9

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2017, 07:32:33 AM »
0
It's why Soma goes to sever the flow of Chaos, and why he's not literally fighting an entity in the form of Dracula.

I mean Graham's fight is pretty much a Dracula form only with a brighter outfit and an intestine half-boob angel gemini instead of rawrgh bat-dragon.

Lovely, didn't know we had the "phone a friend" option.

Hey, it's fair. When in doubt, get the canon literalist.

@Plottwist It's unfortunate you believe it's too literal, I know Soma =/= The Dracula that lived from prior to 1094 - 1999, nor the "entity" Dracula in the way you have explained and that's not what I was saying. I'm well aware the title of being "Dracula" is a matter of semantics, just as Graham believed he was Dracula.

I think he was more drawing reference to you quoting all the dialogue mentioning the name. From an in-universe perspective, nobody in Aria (possibly not even Alucard) knows about Mathias or the events that made him evil. The entity/person/demigod/whatever to them is simply "Dracula." Soma could be Mathias' soul reincarnated all day long, but as far as everyone else knows/cares, he's Dracula.

I was making a point that by the same token that Bloody Aperture is saying "He's not Dracula(definition not withstanding)"
he's also saying that Soma is "Mathias returned" etc, which is also not relevant to anything being discussed. Is he? YES/ NO - It doesn't matter, it's not relevant to the discussion. The discussion was about Soma had become "Dracula" i.e. The Dark Lord, etc.

Soma already had this battle with "Chaos", which prevented him from becoming "Dracula". it's exactly why he had to stop the flow of Chaos. A "Dracula" entity is not going to take physical manifestation in this context and/ or set of events, because the entire point is to pass the torch to the next Dark Lord.

Actually, I would argue that it is relevant to the discussion. Sure, the canon endings for both Aria and Dawn are the good ones in which Somacula doesn't happen, but consider the bad ones.

Look at the bad ending in Aria--Soma, the established reincarnation of Dracula/Mathias' soul, "dies" after the Chaos power within Graham goes apeshit and enters his being. He then becomes Somacula. In a very blase sense, we can look at the in-game "death" as the death of Soma as a consciousness, and the Chaos takes over and we get Somacula. Pretty strong parallel to Mathias losing the internal battle against darkness, I think.

Can also spin it as Soma absorbing Graham's soul when the latter dies (nothing really stating for sure one way or the other that this happens, though we see in Dawn that Soma can indeed take in a human soul), and with Graham being a DLC who most definitely has the darker qualities and mindsets of DL Dracula it could be interpreted that the reincarnated Mathias/Dracula soul (sans evil parts) blends with the DLC soul (with evil parts) and boom, the two are one again and it's Dark Lord round 2.

Now if we look at Dawn's bad ending (which I think is definitely the stronger parallel), what happens? Soma's love interest is, as far as he knows, tragically killed before he can do anything to save her. This pushes him over the edge and the darkness takes over. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Whether or not we consider Soma's reincarnated soul (heh, pun) to be Mathias does indeed have some degree of relevance, as considering that possibility adds a whole new depth of weight to the Somacula endings and Soma becoming the Dark Lord. As Aria stresses considerably, Soma seeks to turn the Chaos faucet off at its source so that Dracula (the dark lord/entity) cannot be reborn, suggesting that the well-established cycle of rebirth and bloodshed could return with him. Since that's suggested, it does well to consider the Mathias possibility, as the conditions for Soma's two turnings to darkness have some pretty heavy parallels to the situations which made Dracula what he became all those centuries prior.

This is one of the reasons I prefer AoS over DoS. As much as I like DoS, AoS was the first Castlevania to do a lot of things exceptionally with both the narrative and character development. 

Damn skippy. Though I do give Dawn a few more points in the "why Soma goes Turbo" department. I like the twist of tragedy in grief sending one over the edge, rather than simply "welp, you "died" and the Dark Side took over."


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Offline theplottwist

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2017, 01:38:04 PM »
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Lovely, didn't know we had the "phone a friend" option.

To be fair, I was already typing my response when he called. You guys are way too fast for me.

I think he was more drawing reference to you quoting all the dialogue mentioning the name. From an in-universe perspective, nobody in Aria (possibly not even Alucard) knows about Mathias or the events that made him evil. The entity/person/demigod/whatever to them is simply "Dracula." Soma could be Mathias' soul reincarnated all day long, but as far as everyone else knows/cares, he's Dracula.

Exactly this.
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Offline theplottwist

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2017, 01:57:07 PM »
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'spirit' and 'Soul' are the same thing. Just different names to describe the same non-corporal entity (Though 'spirit' can be used to describe other things like energy).

OK this actually isn't generally right. Using "soul" and "spirit" interchangeably is a relatively new thing, starting mainly with Augustine's line of thought.

For a great long time of human philosophy/theology, spirit, soul and body were understood as three separate pieces of a being: Psyche, Pneuma and Soma. This was called Tripartide Anthropology, and comes since ancient Greek times. Forward time a little, and you see early Christianity adopting it to explain what is God breathing into the clay model to create man. Soul is literally treated as the "power source" of a human, while spirit is one's mind, consciousness, will, personality, basically what makes a person unique, intellect-wise. It's the self. The meanings of "Pneuma" and "Psyche" were exchanged in many interpretations (Psyche meaning "Mind" or "Soul" depending on what author/philosopher you're reading). But the concept is generally similar across time, and hasn't been abandoned. Today you have both suporters for the tripartide and bipartide views.

I'm fairly certain Castlevania is drawing from this concept because, if it weren't obvious already, we have a literal Soma, with an entity dubbed "evil spirit" fighting Soma's own spirit to take over.

Later today I'll create another thread talking of Soma and the evil spirit (with evidence), because the thing is huge.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 03:09:19 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2017, 01:57:55 PM »
0
While this has been a fascinating discussion that I'm more than happy to see continue, I do want to return to my original comment (which Zangetsu-san seems to have taken in a completely different direction).
I reasoned that Menace, being a form take by all the merged evil souls that Dmitri had absorbed with his duplicated Power of Dominance, would have made more storytelling sense assuming the shape of a ghost of Dracula.

Not actual Dracula.

Just a ghostly image of him. Who also hits pretty hard.

Like this guy.



My logic is that, as Menace is made by essentially locking the souls of evil monsters which would be serving the Dark Lord (if one currently existed) in a box until they merge and explode back out, from a pure relevancy-to-Soma's-character-arc viewpoint, it would have made symbolic sense for Menace to be in the shape of the previous Dark Lord. It could have been justified in all sorts of ways by the development team.
No matter how one slices it, a giant corpse monster doesn't really represent anything. It just sort of is.
I would have preferred that Soma faced something more symbolic of what he's fighting every day to not be.

You may now resume your discussion about who is a reincarnation of whom and Dark Lords and stuff.


[Entirely Parodical EDIT]
[because I got a good chuckle at the thought]

How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

How not to be a giant corpse monster: Um... don't become a giant corpse monster. Seriously, don't even vaguely hang around smaller corpse monsters. You just can't afford that risk broski.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 02:43:36 PM by The Bloody Aperture »
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2017, 06:43:47 PM »
0
Those are sound points D9, thank you for expanding on the Mathiesque idea.
The parallel of DoS Soma seeing Mina killed and being pushed into Dark Lordism also reiterates something of interest, that the unfavourable/ less complete multiple endings are actually 'canon' but only in the sense that they never get to happen. (Well at least not all of them, depending on one's own headcanon and so forth)

The discussion has taken an interesting turn. I still stand by AoS>DoS, though given the choice and time I will try DoS as I've not played it as much. (Death was much more badass in DoS)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64        ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE     RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS
                                                                          v
                                                                          BE>*
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline Shiroi Koumori

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2017, 11:09:16 PM »
0
[Entirely Parodical EDIT]
[because I got a good chuckle at the thought]

How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

This is gold! Thanks for making me LOL.

Offline X

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2017, 11:33:05 PM »
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Quote
OK this actually isn't generally right. Using "soul" and "spirit" interchangeably is a relatively new thing, starting mainly with Augustine's line of thought.

For a great long time of human philosophy/theology, spirit, soul and body were understood as three separate pieces of a being: Psyche, Pneuma and Soma. This was called Tripartide Anthropology, and comes since ancient Greek times. Forward time a little, and you see early Christianity adopting it to explain what is God breathing into the clay model to create man. Soul is literally treated as the "power source" of a human, while spirit is one's mind, consciousness, will, personality, basically what makes a person unique, intellect-wise. It's the self. The meanings of "Pneuma" and "Psyche" were exchanged in many interpretations (Psyche meaning "Mind" or "Soul" depending on what author/philosopher you're reading). But the concept is generally similar across time, and hasn't been abandoned. Today you have both suporters for the tripartide and bipartide views.

That is interesting to read about. But for me as I grew up with the bipartide meanings (without even knowing it) soul and spirit are pretty much the same thing. At least for me.

Quote
Later today I'll create another thread talking of Soma and the evil spirit (with evidence), because the thing is huge.

This I have no doubt.
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Religion is Man's flawed interpretation of Spirituality given back to humanity..."

Offline superc4

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2017, 01:22:56 AM »
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Those are sound points D9, thank you for expanding on the Mathiesque idea.
The parallel of DoS Soma seeing Mina killed and being pushed into Dark Lordism also reiterates something of interest, that the unfavourable/ less complete multiple endings are actually 'canon' but only in the sense that they never get to happen. (Well at least not all of them, depending on one's own headcanon and so forth)

The discussion has taken an interesting turn. I still stand by AoS>DoS, though given the choice and time I will try DoS as I've not played it as much. (Death was much more badass in DoS)

I think DoS is more open ended then other games because we don't have a sequel. Unless Igarashi stated that True ending is the canon, I think both ending will work, especially with Julius mode.

Which comes in my mind, this could been an alternate dialogue... if they had rights which they never could.

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Offline theplottwist

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2017, 02:31:43 AM »
0
I think DoS is more open ended then other games because we don't have a sequel. Unless Igarashi stated that True ending is the canon, I think both ending will work, especially with Julius mode.

The game does have a sequel, actually: The novel.

So you could say Igarashi did state what is the canon ending of DoS. And it's the one where Soma defeats the cult.

(Death was much more badass in DoS)

Fam, one doesn't simply ignore that huge-ass double-bladed scythe from AoS.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 02:34:29 AM by theplottwist »
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Offline superc4

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2017, 02:58:44 AM »
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The game does have a sequel, actually: The novel.

So you could say Igarashi did state what is the canon ending of DoS. And it's the one where Soma defeats the cult.

Fam, one doesn't simply ignore that huge-ass double-bladed scythe from AoS.

Oh. I thought that DoS was the latest CV game as for timeline. Thanks. Also, Death comes way too early and smashes anyone ill-equipped in AoS.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: AOS or DOS?
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2017, 06:24:25 AM »
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Fam, one doesn't simply ignore that huge-ass double-bladed scythe from AoS.

Haha I am in no way disrespecting the mega-scythe, and I can't speak for others, but for myself even in hard mode of AoS Death is swiss cheese.  8)
AoS' Death is one of my top 3 preferred designs and attack patterns though.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64        ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE     RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS
                                                                          v
                                                                          BE>*
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

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