Topic: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?

[zangetsu468]

There was no satan's ring in the original Castlevania. There was Dracula's ring in CV II but it wasn't satan's ring.

I thought in one of the English versions of Igavanias (DoS maybe) that there was an item called "Satan's ring" which was incorrectly translated, and the figure the Japanese decription referred to was Dracula.

And that is exactly what Chaos is; The opposite to Order. Both exists simultaneously in our universe. Chaos is not evil nor is Order good. Both are merely opposites to one-another, yet both are absolutely necessary for the existence and continuation of our universe. Sadly many CV fans don't understand this as due to translation errors in the IGA games. It wasn't made clear and so they think that the final boss in AoS is Chaos itself. In truth it's not. It is a Chaotic creature, but not Chaos itself as it is absolutely impossible to see pure Chaos let alone destroy pure Chaos. If it was Chaos that was destroyed in AoS then the universe in which the series takes place in would no longer exist. It would literally collapse into nothing due to imbalance.

I always assumed it was Chaos, as in "Chaos manifested". I see Chaos as energy, it can't be destroyed in the traditional sense, but it can assume different forms and manifest accordingly (whether it's within the heart of men, Dracula, or what Soma fights in AoS, etc)

Cv3, when the manual says that Dracula made a pact with an ancient evil deity.  Now Lucifer himself?  Never really referenced

Imo the ancient evil deity is Death. This also works if you subscribe to the LOI Manga.
I personally believe Mathias made a pact with him in exchange for the Crimson Stone.

[theplottwist]

I thought in one of the English versions of Igavanias (DoS maybe) that there was an item called "Satan's ring" which was incorrectly translated, and the figure the Japanese decription referred to was Dracula.

That is indeed the case, yes. The ring called "Satan's Ring" is in fact referring to Dracula, and not to "Satan". The translators didn't quite catch on what was happening and invented a Satan for the ring to belong to.

Hell, on the ring's first appearance on AoS, it's even modelled after a bat motif. Who would the owner of this ring be??

[zangetsu468]

Hell

I see what you did there 

on the ring's first appearance on AoS, it's even modelled after a bat motif. Who would the owner of this ring be??

Meryl Streep in The Devil wears Prada???

[Shiroi Koumori]

Hell, on the ring's first appearance on AoS, it's even modelled after a bat motif. Who would the owner of this ring be??

IGA hyuk hyuk hyuk

(click to show/hide)

[chainsawmidget]

Considering the series has demons, and angels, and that holy water and crosses actually do something, i see no reason why there shouldn't be a devil. 

That doesn't mean he's a major player or even involved though.  Maybe he just saw Drac trying to make a bad world filled with evil and thought, "hey, this guy's doing alright.  I'll just sit back and work on my fiddle playing skills."  Of course he could be working behind the scenes, pulling strings here and there, making sure the right evil beings show up and giving Dracula the occasional spooky whisper of advise. 

Also just because Dracula is referred to as the Master of All Evil Chaos boss not Nice guy doesn't mean he actually IS the real top dog.  Just that he's the most powerful that people have seen. 

[X]

Or Dracula could have completely circumvented the devil's power long ago and simply took over as the supreme embodiment of all that is evil. Like what happened with Satan's former pet-turned traitor, malebolgia, in the Spawn series. Hence the reason why there's no Satan in the original CV and why God has chosen the Belmonts to fight for him.

[Dracula9]

IGA hyuk hyuk hyuk

(click to show/hide)

I never knew IGA was a practicioner of metallurgy! That's fuckin' rad!

[Kaneda]

Considering the series has demons, and angels, and that holy water and crosses actually do something, i see no reason why there shouldn't be a devil. 

That doesn't mean he's a major player or even involved though.  Maybe he just saw Drac trying to make a bad world filled with evil and thought, "hey, this guy's doing alright.  I'll just sit back and work on my fiddle playing skills." 

^This.

I always worked under the assumption that Satan existed within the CV lore, even though he has no explicit role within the plots. I saw Satan as the evil coach, with Dracula as the team captain. He's not on the field, but he still plays a part in the game. Same dynamic with God and the Belmonts.

[theplottwist]

OK people look...

I know some of you don't take the "Dracula is the incarnation of evil" talk seriously (as seriously as a work of fiction can go, at least), and I don't want to come off as incredibly arrogant or pompous/smug, but:



This is not an NPC telling us what he thinks. This is not Alucard surmising what Dracula might or not be. This is a manual telling the player what Dracula is and how evil he can be.

I'm not even saying there isn't a Satan or a Lucifer. I'm just saying that if there is one (or both), they certainly are not pulling any strings on Dracula.

(I'm even gonna check the japanese one too, JUST to be sure)

EDIT: Checked. It says basically the same thing. Here is the text in copiable format for your fact-checking shenanigans:
悪魔城の城主であり、すべての邪悪の根源。
冷酷無比だが王族ならではの気品と優雅さを兼ね備えている。

Or Dracula could have completely circumvented the devil's power long ago and simply took over as the supreme embodiment of all that is evil. Like what happened with Satan's former pet-turned traitor, malebolgia, in the Spawn series. Hence the reason why there's no Satan in the original CV and why God has chosen the Belmonts to fight for him.

Which I find to be a much more agreeable assumption. If a Demon King is needed, then there should have been one previous to Dracula. Dawn of Sorrow shows that 36 years of time is enough for the Demon Realm to weaken and need a new master (if Celia is to be believed). Then, either Dracula usurped/destroyed the previous Demon King, or he was destroyed just before Dracula took over.

[zangetsu468]

I actually have to reconsider my previous post saying that Mathias made a pact with Death. First of all, Death isn't inherently evil, he is actually a divine being, which I believe Leon mentions in LoI. Secondly, the bestiary describes him as:

"A being that hunts souls. Loyal to the master of the Crimson Stone."

Therefore although the manga states that Walter made a pact with Death (somewhat backed up by Walter exclaiming Death's betrayal after his own defeat) Death actually serves Mathias due to the CS. It's already known that Dracula has had dominion over angelic and holy beings, but Death willingly serves him.

I've thought about this carefully, and it's obvious Mathias in LOI wants to defy God by being granted eternal life via the CS. However, I used to think (in my own head canon) Mathias could have made a pact with Satan for the CS (later completed with the absorbing of Walter's soul), however, there's nothing to indicate that Mathias/ Dracula made any such pact until Lisa was executed, which then coincides with CVIII's description of said pact.

[Dracula9]

Disclaimer: Note that I will put "good" and "evil" in quotes almost exclusively, due to the dichotomous nature of the terms as I'm discussing and referring to them. Bear that in mind.

General personal thoughts:

-Demon King is a title and rank, not a singular one-time being.

-Christian God plays a decently-sized role in CV lore, but is clearly not defined as the sole deity in existence in the universe. Therefore, it's not particularly prudent to take many major Biblical stories and assume they're true in the world of CV. Hell, I could even make a case that, since a lot of Christianity descends from Jewish roots, that as per the Jewish faith under Jehova's rule there IS no Hell as Christianity defines it. No Hell, no single angel-that-fell Satan.

-Pretty much all references to Satan as the singular being we all know him as are the fault of mistranslations.

Personal headcanon:

-The title of Demon King is a divine role, much like Death's. By this, I draw upon the dichotomy that good cannot exist without evil as a reference of the inverse, much how light cannot exist with darkness. To this end, I consider the Demon Realm/Chaos/whatever one wishes to call it to be a very tangible location much like the Heavens of the many deities we see in the lore. Such a realm would need a ruler, and that ruler holds the title of Demon King. Perhaps there was a Satan or Lucifer or Samael holding power there are one point, prior to Dracula's claiming of the rank. As we see in Dawn, it is a role that must be fulfilled for the realm to exist properly, which I feel lends credence to the notion that it is a divine realm and role that exists as a counterbalance to the realms and roles of what is considered "good." Should such a Satan or Devil have existed within the lore and universe, I doubt very highly that he was in any way commanding or otherwise influencing Dracula.

-Death's relationship to Dracula, or more specifically the Crimson Stone, comes from a very simple concept--the Crimson Stone grants fabulous dark powers, with its owners pretty much guaranteed to perform "evil" acts with it. Such acts would naturally result in people dying in large numbers, something I'm sure Death has a very high investment in. Therefore, I consider his attachment to Dracula to be predominantly one of "okay, whoever holds the Stone is gonna probably kill a shitload of people, and this Dracula dude's been doing a damn fine job of that for centuries, so if I hang with him I'll have lots of work!" Their implied friendship/acquaintance I'm sure simply developed as a natural byproduct of the time they've spent in collusion. Pacts can be made with Death without the Stone, but in those cases it simply becomes a matter of Death siding with the highest bidder--canonically, Walter seems to have some kind of deal with him, but Death abandons it the instant a more promising partner/master shows up, Mathias.

-The Crimson Stone is essentially a form of the Philosopher's Stone that grants the legendary powers of it in a way humans wouldn't even consider as valid due to its "evil" connotations (I am paraphrasing the ever-loving SHIT out of this headcanon, as I can very literally explain on it in borderline-disgusting detail for HOURS on end--Plot can confirm this). Consider that the historical Stone is always described as granting amazing powers and immortality. Well, what does vampirism do if not exactly those things? But since vampires are considered evil, then human alchemists such as Rinaldo would look at the effects of the Crimson Stone and go "no, that's just a bastardized failure, there's no WAY that thing can be a true Stone," despite it granting a form of the exact abilities humans claim it to possess. Since I assume this to be the case, then that makes the Crimson Stone something that requires ingredients and a recipe, therefore it is something that must be WANTED to be made. Ergo, someone WANTS to make such a stone, therefore WANTING what it gives, therefore see above about Death and why I feel his attachment to the Stone's owner to be as it is.

As for how all these tie together to relate to the OP topic:

-The Devil as we know him may or may not have ever truly existed in Castlevania. There doesn't seem to be much concrete canon evidence declaring as such, with "Devils" being relegated to simple powerful demons bearing the name, rather than there being a single "true" Devil. If he had existed, it doesn't seem to be the case anymore, or at the very least he does not exist in his seat of usual power.

-The title of Demon King appears very strongly to be one of rank and power, rather than a singular being like Satan. Since it's such a title and rank, it can change hands and be usurped by stronger entities. It also appears that such a leader is required for the corresponding Realm to be whole and functional, thus further signifying that there doesn't seem to be a universal all-powerful evil entity like Satan in control of it at all times.

-Since the title of Demon King seems to be a temporary title that can be usurped by a more powerful willing being, I think it's fair to assume that Dracula has all but filled and maintained that role for a millennium with no candidates stronger than him showing up to take it from him. Since that's true, I would imagine that, if a Satan still existed, he would've been trying to reclaim that power in Dracula's many naptimes. Since this doesn't appear to be the case, I believe it can be reasonably inferred that regardless of whether or not Satan as we know him in Christianity ever even existed and held power in CV lore, that mantle is now held by Dracula alone. Nothing else "evil" has ever successfully usurped him or his seat as Demon King, the Belmonts seem to have been selected as God's Chosen warriors to combat this force of unrivaled evil and darkness, Dracula bears explicit weaknesses to Church and other holy symbols and effigies (arguably beyond even the traditional threshold of vampire weaknesses, as Dracula has transcended far beyond an ordinary vampire at this point, and is more a dark force of nature due to his heavy involvement with Chaos to such a point that calling him just a vampire would almost be an insult) that aren't necessarily even Christian in nature. If he displays vulnerabilities to holy elements from faiths other than Christianity, it would suggest that his alignment exceeds simply that of the Christian Devil and puts him more on par with that of a universally wicked force that opposes ALL that is divine and "good."

-In sum, if there were a role which we could consider that of Satan, then Dracula's taken it over and had it for a very long time. As far as the CV universe and lore goes, Dracula more or less IS the Devil of the world. He obtains the necessary title of Demon King, holds it unchallenged for a thousand years, and when he's destroyed for good nothing seems to jump in and take his place for almost four decades--suggesting that he either did a damn fine job of clearing the playing field, enslaved any competitors to his will and slew those who would not comply (or in the case of the only KNOWN would-be usurper of the mantle of Demon King/Dark Lord, Galamoth, confined them within the Castle and the heroes killed them), or simply left such a mark on the other denizens of the Demon Realm that even after his "true" death in 1999, his residual power in the DLCs and Soma was enough to strike fear into the Realm's hearts as to just another delayed resurrection, and stay them from trying to take over.

So the TL;DR of all this is that, as far as the lore and canon seem to suggest, Dracula is basically the Devil in the CV universe now, regardless of whether or not the Christian one existed prior to him.

[zangetsu468]

As for how all these tie together to relate to the OP topic:

-The Devil as we know him may or may not have ever truly existed in Castlevania. There doesn't seem to be much concrete canon evidence declaring as such, with "Devils" being relegated to simple powerful demons bearing the name, rather than there being a single "true" Devil. If he had existed, it doesn't seem to be the case anymore, or at the very least he does not exist in his seat of usual power.

Maybe not, but there is still some strong and suggestive occult symbology as chronologically early as LOI
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/castlevania/images/5/54/Lament_of_Innocence_-_Castle_Entrance_-_02.png/revision/latest?cb=20150927221843

However, even so I have to admit the way I view God and any sort of devil in the CV universe is in a more idealistic sense, the way this thread has been discussing Chaos. i.e. God is the righteousness within men which is everywhere, Chaos is also everywhere but can have the opposite influence on mankind. I don't see the two ideals as beings sitting on thrones in heaven/ hell. If anything that being is Dracula.

-The title of Demon King appears very strongly to be one of rank and power, rather than a singular being like Satan. Since it's such a title and rank, it can change hands and be usurped by stronger entities.

Much like Galamoth tries to do. (It's interesting that he comes from so far in the future to try his hand, thinking he will succeed.)

Another fascinating tidbit I wanted to mention is regarding Death, I just had an idea, it relates back to an older thread or possibly more than one where the "Master" of Walter's Castle was brought up. http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,7631.15.html
What I never pieced together was that on every boss door, there's this symbolhttps://i.ytimg.com/vi/gTqFa6z7vUQ/hqdefault.jpg and when Leon defeats Death, then and only then, the castle crumbles.. I'm starting to think that the LOI Manga actually is canon, which if so means that Walter made a pact with Death. But why do I think so? There is logic and reason to this, Dracula9 has touched on part of it. The way I rationalise it is this, Death's existence is to hunt souls, he/ it is a Shinigami, who only has the interest to hunt souls. Walter does just this, hunting humans for sport, he assists Death with his ultimate cause, hunting more souls. However, upon serving Mathias, Walter simply became one of THOSE souls, Death didn't hesitate due to serving the Master of the CS. Of course it makes sense for Death to do this, as previously mentioned by D9 that by nature there's a higher likelihood or correlation that the CS leads to people dying, or being absorbed etc. Either way their souls are being hunted (or harvested, collected, what-have-you).

The way this feeds back to the original subject matter is that there was no Satan - at least, not at the time of LOI - who was involved with Mathias' fall from grace. I doubt Mathias made a pact with Death for reasons previously listed. CVIII's bs states that Dracula made a pact with an "ancient evil deity", but then maybe we should look at this from a different perspective. Perhaps the ancient deity isn't Satan, or Baphomet, maybe the Ancient Deity is the CS itself. Maybe since it absorbs/ has absorbed souls and changes its Master forever, creating/ completing the CS as Mathias did IS the blood pact with the deity being the essence of the CS itself. Just a theory.... A gaaaAAAAAAAAmmmmme the... (stopping now)

[X]

The way I rationalise it is this, Death's existence is to hunt souls, he/ it is a Shinigami, who only has the interest to hunt souls.

This is also another reason why I'm not fond of IGA's CV ideology. The true Grim Reaper was not a shinigami at all, but the actual European (Greek) god of Death; Thanatos, who would be later included in Christian mythology as one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypses. And there was only one of him making him unique in the world of monsters. Shinigami don't use the Syth because that is strictly Thanatos' implement. Outside of popular manga illustrations I've yet to see a shinigami use a Syth as a weapon outside of their traditional Japanese lore implements. And then there is also Death's look; a hooded cloaked skeleton. Shinigami don't dress like that let alone look like that (again outside of popular manga illustrations). It's just one more thing IGA changed around that should not have been touched, just like Dracula.

[theplottwist]

This is also another reason why I'm not fond of IGA's CV ideology. The true Grim Reaper was not a shinigami at all, but the actual European (Greek) god of Death; Thanatos, who would be later included in Christian mythology as one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypses. And there was only one of him making him unique in the world of monsters. Shinigami don't use the Syth because that is strictly Thanatos' implement. Outside of popular manga illustrations I've yet to see a shinigami use a Syth as a weapon outside of their traditional Japanese lore implements. And then there is also Death's look; a hooded cloaked skeleton. Shinigami don't dress like that let alone look like that (again outside of popular manga illustrations). It's just one more thing IGA changed around that should not have been touched, just like Dracula.

This is Death being called "Shinigami" on the very first Castlevania. This repeats on the sequels.

There is another japanese word to mean Death in the more European "Grim Reaper" sense. When IGA got hold of Castlevania back on SotN, Death was renamed "デス (Desu)", the aforementioned word for "Death" in kana. Katakana is used when a foreign word (and quite possibly its intent) is transcripted into Japanese.

If anything, IGA initially made Death into the more european counterpart, not the contrary. It is clear, however, that "Shinigami" was the original intent -- which is most likely the reason why IGA returned "Death" to "Shinigami".

We need to stop putting everything we dislike on IGA's account.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

We need to stop putting everything we dislike on IGA's account.

Thank GOD someone else said it.