Topic: General Mega Man Discussion Thread

[Inccubus]

X and Zero can and are considered Reploids. Reploids are made from the same technology and have the same mental capabilities. the term itself is used to refer to robots made with humanlike mental capabilities. (view the intro narration to Zero 4) X and Zero CAN be excluded as Reploids, thus making Sigma the first Reploid, but otherwise they are usually counted as Reploids.

US or Japanese? I tend to ignore things written by localizers as they have a tendancy to make shit up that was not intended by the original designers.

Also, the term itself excludes X from being a reploid. Reploid is derived from the Japanese repliroid which is a contraction of "replicated android". Which begs the question, "replicated from what?" Of course, we know that the design they're based on is X. It is also clearly stated throughout the X series that X has a strong sense of compassion that is absent from his copies, the reploids. Dr. Cains biggest regret being that he could not replicate that in Sigma & the other reploids. This one thing that makes X superior to his copies is why he is not a reploid.

Zero also is not a reploid because of his completely alien design compared to X and the reploids. On top of that Zero does not have the same sense of compassion that X does, but rather has a very strong sense of justice that far out weighs his compassion. In the games story, characters refer to X and Zero as reploids out of either ignorance or convention. Outside of that, in reality, people also adopted the habit of referring to X and Zero as reploids for the same reasons.

As further evidence, Dr. Cain never refers to X in his limited dialogue as a reploid either. The thing that makes X and Zero special is the fact that in reality they are not reploids at all.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Indeed.  Reploids are based on the mechanical parts of X (and possibly Zero in the later games) but not their minds, as the mind's compassion, something Thomas Light (and Justice from Wily) worked on extensively (though with Wily it may have been accidental).

[Flame]

Rokkuman X Saibaa Misshon Kanzen Kouryaku Gaido
If you exclude X and Zero as Repliroids, Sigma, whom Dr. Cain created was the first Repliroid.

Reploid/Repliroid NEVER meant "Replicate Android" that has always been nothing more than a fan assumption. It has NEVER been stated to have such a meaning in game or in any of it's sources. It's sole meaning is to define a robot with advanced humanlike mental capabilities.

further on reploids-

from the Rockman Zero 4 intro

Repliroids...
Those are the robots
created long ago
to be as much like humans as possible...

Those Repliroids
given personalities
with their advanced technology
worked on humans' behalf
and walked together with humans.
They should have become
the best partners...

Reploids are not replicates of X. they are derrivatives. They are based on his design concept, as stated in Day of Sigma. that being, a robot with human like mental faculties.

take this for all it's worth:

Zero: [[to Roll]] What are you doing here? You're just a housekeeping Reploid... You should get home immediately before you malfunction. -- Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars

Roll, a robot of the past generation is considered to be a reploid by Zero. all humanlike Robots have fallen under the term. Including the likes of Roll and her kind. they certainly arent mechaniloids, right?

Even panthoens, "mentally degraded Reploid copuies of X" are considered, again- reploids.

This one thing that makes X superior to his copies is why he is not a reploid.

his "worrying" is his greatest feature. Not compassion. He has the ability to worry on a level far deeper than ordinary reploids. This is due to the suffering circuit installed within him, which constantly makes him worry about matters both Reploid and Human. It makes him unbiased as to those matters. therefore he must constantly balance the worth of both, an impossible situation.

either ignorance or convention. Outside of that, in reality, people also adopted the habit of referring to X and Zero as reploids for the same reasons.

they are referred to as Reploids because they are no different than the definition of the term. a Robot with humanlike mental ability, made to be as human as possible.

As further evidence, Dr. Cain never refers to X in his limited dialogue as a reploid either. The thing that makes X and Zero special is the fact that in reality they are not reploids at all.

What makes them special, is their origins and specialties.

X. Magnum Opus of Dr. Light. Has perfect Virus countermeasures, very powerful Weapon and Variable weapons system, and limitless potential; Abilities that grow as he fights, the ability to worry on a level far greater than any robot or reploid. the base the reploid race was based on.

Zero. Magnum opus of Dr. Wily, in his last ditch effort to prove his superiority. has imperfect virus countermeasures, but is unnafected by viruses. is a carrier and source of the Sigma Virus. has incredible combat skill and determination, the perfect soldier, does his mission because it is his job, despite personal feelings. has the Saber tactics system. Also grows as he fights. The catalyst for the creation of Cyber elves.

Axl is special as well. because he is special. Copy ability, immune to all viruses through his copy chip, unknown origins and mysterious scar. has intense hatred for mavericks that he cannot explain. prototype of the new generation.

(and Justice from Wily) worked on extensively (though with Wily it may have been accidental).

Zero's change from berserk maverick to hunter was a matter of circumstance.

When Wily created Zero, he contained a flaw in his cognitive program that made him overly violent and unwilling to obey orders, so Wily sealed him away.

During his battle with Sigma, they were both infected by the virus emanating from Zero's capsule. Zero's armor was breached somewhere along the line, allowing the virus easy access to him. it is what caused his malfunction right as he was about to kill Sigma. Sigma punched his head, knocking him out. something there happened, and his personality was changed. he became calm and level headed.

It is theorized that the virus was created to pacify Zero. dampening his emotions in addition to boosting his power. this can be observed with the original Sigma/Zero fight, where Zero after being infected became normal. and upon being infected again with the Zero virus in X5's alternate scenario, became a cold hearted killing machine, no longer caring about the hunters or the maverick, devoted only to his mission of killing X.

[X]

Thanks! Good read though I had to work on it little by little.

[Flame]

Once I get home I can post more stuff.

[Inccubus]

Reploid/Repliroid NEVER meant "Replicate Android" that has always been nothing more than a fan assumption. It has NEVER been stated to have such a meaning in game or in any of it's sources. It's sole meaning is to define a robot with advanced humanlike mental capabilities.

That's a ridiculous argument, I'm sorry. You're saying that a plainly obvious Japanese contraction can't possibly have a connection to it's constituent parts because it wasn't implicitly stated as such?

And then there's this:http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Reploid

It all depends on how you perceive the term though. Strictly speaking X and Zero are not reploids unless you're using a different meaning. However, just as you can point out that the constituent parts of the contraction "reploid/repliroid" is never implicitly defined in the canon, neither are X and Zero ever stated implicitly to be considered reploids because they have similar traits. At best you could say that they are called/call themselves that out of simple convention. Dr. Light, X's own creator, never refered to him or Zero as reploids.

Repliroids...
Those are the robots
created long ago
to be as much like humans as possible...

Those Repliroids
given personalities
with their advanced technology
worked on humans' behalf
and walked together with humans.
They should have become
the best partners...

Not considering X and Zero reploids doesn't contradict that statement. And this says nothing about X or Zero specifically either.

Reploids are not replicates of X. they are derrivatives. They are based on his design concept, as stated in Day of Sigma. that being, a robot with human like mental faculties.

That's semantics.
replica: any close or exact copy or reproduction.
derivative: not original; secondary.

Reploids are based on Dr. Cain's best effort to reproduce X's design as stated throughout the series, and, as a matter of fact, Dr. Cain specifically refers to X as "that robot" in the third scene of Day of Sigma.

Zero: [[to Roll]] What are you doing here? You're just a housekeeping Reploid... You should get home immediately before you malfunction. -- Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars

Roll, a robot of the past generation is considered to be a reploid by Zero. all humanlike Robots have fallen under the term. Including the likes of Roll and her kind. they certainly arent mechaniloids, right?

And how exactly is Zero supposed to know that Roll ISN'T a reploid? Is there some external marking or text that would alert him to that fact? And more importantly, Zero has no memory from before he was repaired and modified by Dr. Cain. All he knows is that the current form of androids are called reploids and likely also that they are based on X's design. And besides that, it never occurred to you that an android with free will and the ability to learn couldn't be mistaken about something?

Even panthoens, "mentally degraded Reploid copuies of X" are considered, again- reploids.

Exactly, "reploid COPIES of X" and apparently they DON'T have to have human level intelligence and learning capability to be considered reploids either, so thanks for proving my point. That throws out the notion that a reploid is any android with human like mental characteristics being as Pantheons are barely more than mindless robots. And besides that, after a hundred years, the convention of calling all androids reploids regardless of the original definition of the work has most assuredly set in.

his "worrying" is his greatest feature. Not compassion. He has the ability to worry on a level far deeper than ordinary reploids. This is due to the suffering circuit installed within him, which constantly makes him worry about matters both Reploid and Human. It makes him unbiased as to those matters. therefore he must constantly balance the worth of both, an impossible situation.

The last time I check you couldn't worry about other peoples problems without feeling compassion for their plight. That is unless you had an invested interest in the individuals in question, and for X that would mean a personal invested interest in every intelligent being on Earth.

they are referred to as Reploids because they are no different than the definition of the term. a Robot with humanlike mental ability, made to be as human as possible.

That has never been explicitly defined out of context. The fact of the matter is that they've never explaind the reasons why any particular character has refered to X or Zero as reploids. That leave the most likely reason to be that  it's just the naming convention at the time.

What makes them special, is their origins and specialties.

X. Magnum Opus of Dr. Light. Has perfect Virus countermeasures, very powerful Weapon and Variable weapons system, and limitless potential; Abilities that grow as he fights, the ability to worry on a level far greater than any robot or reploid. the base the reploid race was based on.

Zero. Magnum opus of Dr. Wily, in his last ditch effort to prove his superiority. has imperfect virus countermeasures, but is unnafected by viruses. is a carrier and source of the Sigma Virus. has incredible combat skill and determination, the perfect soldier, does his mission because it is his job, despite personal feelings. has the Saber tactics system. Also grows as he fights. The catalyst for the creation of Cyber elves.

Axl is special as well. because he is special. Copy ability, immune to all viruses through his copy chip, unknown origins and mysterious scar. has intense hatred for mavericks that he cannot explain. prototype of the new generation.

And X and Zero's origins are that they were humaniod robots design to be the first of their kind to have free will and the ability to learn and feel. Thus, not being reploids by extension is what makes them special.

Axl is special because he is the prototype for the new type of REPLOID and is still based and X's design at the core. Thus, by extension, being not being a standard reploid is what makes him special.

Zero's change from berserk maverick to hunter was a matter of circumstance.

When Wily created Zero, he contained a flaw in his cognitive program that made him overly violent and unwilling to obey orders, so Wily sealed him away.

During his battle with Sigma, they were both infected by the virus emanating from Zero's capsule. Zero's armor was breached somewhere along the line, allowing the virus easy access to him. it is what caused his malfunction right as he was about to kill Sigma. Sigma punched his head, knocking him out. something there happened, and his personality was changed. he became calm and level headed.

It is theorized that the virus was created to pacify Zero. dampening his emotions in addition to boosting his power. this can be observed with the original Sigma/Zero fight, where Zero after being infected became normal. and upon being infected again with the Zero virus in X5's alternate scenario, became a cold hearted killing machine, no longer caring about the hunters or the maverick, devoted only to his mission of killing X.

I don't know what video you were watching but the one I saw didn't show any change in Sigma's attitude until right after the moment when he breaks the crystal on Zero's forehead. That is where the original virus was concentrated. Zero was the carrier of the original virus and actually became UN-infected during that fight. And later on in X5 when Zero is infected again, it isn't by the same virus. In fact, IIRC Sigma manipulates Zero into getting infected with the Sigma virus in an attempt to recreate the original virus.

[Flame]

That's a ridiculous argument, I'm sorry. You're saying that a plainly obvious Japanese contraction can't possibly have a connection to it's constituent parts because it wasn't implicitly stated as such?

Alright. give me any source that states factually that that is the definition of the word.

And then there's this:http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Reploid

Dont use the MMKB. its horribly inacurate and prone to fanon.
If anything, use the Megaman network Wiki.
Much more factual
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

It all depends on how you perceive the term though. Strictly speaking X and Zero are not reploids unless you're using a different meaning. However, just as you can point out that the constituent parts of the contraction "reploid/repliroid" is never implicitly defined in the canon, neither are X and Zero ever stated implicitly to be considered reploids because they have similar traits. At best you could say that they are called/call themselves that out of simple convention. Dr. Light, X's own creator, never refered to him or Zero as reploids.

Well thats what ive been saying all along. Im not arguing wether or not they ARE reploids. Only that they fall under the term's use. in the X series, Reploid is used to describe all humanlike robots with humanlike mental ability. Its up to the player to decide wether they think X and Zero should be counted as Reploids or not, and only for the sake of Sigma's status as First Reploid.

otherwise it REALLY does not matter.

That's semantics.
replica: any close or exact copy or reproduction.
derivative: not original; secondary.

By that logic, I can say that Spaghetti is a replica of chinese Noodles because they are based on the same concept.

or that lords of Shadow is a replica of God of war because they feature similar combat. ( OH NO I DI'NT!!)

Reploids are based on Dr. Cain's best effort to reproduce X's design as stated throughout the series, and, as a matter of fact, Dr. Cain specifically refers to X as "that robot" in the third scene of Day of Sigma.

are reploids not robots? I understand your point though.

And how exactly is Zero supposed to know that Roll ISN'T a reploid? Is there some external marking or text that would alert him to that fact? And more importantly, Zero has no memory from before he was repaired and modified by Dr. Cain. All he knows is that the current form of androids are called reploids and likely also that they are based on X's design. And besides that, it never occurred to you that an android with free will and the ability to learn couldn't be mistaken about something?

My point is that she is humanlike enough to fall under the usage of the word. Even if she is a robot of the past generation. It is the same way that the umbrella also can cover X and Zero.

Exactly, "reploid COPIES of X" and apparently they DON'T have to have human level intelligence and learning capability to be considered reploids either, so thanks for proving my point. That throws out the notion that a reploid is any android with human like mental characteristics being as Pantheons are barely more than mindless robots. And besides that, after a hundred years, the convention of calling all androids reploids regardless of the original definition of the work has most assuredly set in.

mentally degraded doesnt mean stupid. They are not mechaniloids, they are considered reploids. Which measn they have average reploid intelligence. Keep in mind they were originally just guards, peacekeepers and police. jobs like that. Do note that they were originally planned to have the ability to speak, as per an unused pantheon mugshot. Guess they figured that would be hard to do when they have no mouths. or something.

The last time I check you couldn't worry about other peoples problems without feeling compassion for their plight. That is unless you had an invested interest in the individuals in question, and for X that would mean a personal invested interest in every intelligent being on Earth.

Im just calling it as it is. the key word here is not compassion, but "worrying". Cain makes certain of that fact in Day of Sigma.

That has never been explicitly defined out of context. The fact of the matter is that they've never explaind the reasons why any particular character has refered to X or Zero as reploids. That leave the most likely reason to be that  it's just the naming convention at the time.

exactly. by the general nusage of the word, any humanlike robot or robot with advanced humanlike thought, falls under the umbrella of the term. This includes X, Zero, and robots of the past generation. And even robots like the Pantheons.

I don't know what video you were watching but the one I saw didn't show any change in Sigma's attitude until right after the moment when he breaks the crystal on Zero's forehead. That is where the original virus was concentrated. Zero was the carrier of the original virus and actually became UN-infected during that fight. And later on in X5 when Zero is infected again, it isn't by the same virus. In fact, IIRC Sigma manipulates Zero into getting infected with the Sigma virus in an attempt to recreate the original virus.

heres where my promise to posy more comes in.

From the Rockman Zero Collection timeline

At least 200 years ago
    The birth of X

    When an incident occurred where an unknown computer virus came from space and causes robots to become violent and riotous, Dr. Light completed the battle robot “X” worrying about the future of Earth. Hypothesizing X could battle robots infected by viruses, he gave X the perfect virus counter-measure. Meanwhile Dr. Light developed a great number of armors, but this presented the possibility of X becoming a threat to mankind. To confirm the safety of X’s cognition program, Dr. Light sealed away X in an analysis capsule.

    1XX years ago
    The birth of Zero

    Zero was produced by Dr. Wily, who schemed at taking over the world. But he contained a flaw in his cognitive program that made him violent and unwilling to obey instructions, so Dr. Wily himself sealed Zero in a capsule.

    1XX years ago
    X is discovered

    X is discovered by Dr. Cain, having been buried underground for 100 years.

    1XX years ago
    The birth of Reploids

    Dr. Cain carried out his research of X, and using this created highly advanced robots called “Reploids.”

    1XX years ago
    The Sigma Virus outbreak

    A subspecies of the terrible computer virus from long ago is generated, and begins driving robots mad locally. The human leadership acknowledges these infected robots as Mavericks, and orders them to be disposed of. The source was found to be an unknown computer virus that had prevailed over 100 years ago emerging from the capsule Zero slumbered in. Later, this virus was named the Sigma Virus, after the Reploid “Sigma” who led a revolt against the human leadership.

    1XX years ago, Formation of the Maverick Hunters

    Following through with the disposal of Mavericks, the human leadership decides to have Mavericks exterminated by Reploids, and forms the Maverick Hunters. Ironically, the leader of the first generation of Maverick Hunters is Sigma.

    1XX years ago
    Zero awakens

    Receiving information of Zero awakening from his capsule and causing violence, the Maverick Hunter Sigma finds and intercepts him. during this incident, Sigma is infected by the unknown computer virus leaking out from Zero’s capsule, but at the same time Zero, having his armor damaged in the battle with Sigma, also becomes infected with the virus. Due to this, Zero’s personality completely changed, and he would turn to working as a Maverick Hunter.

    1XX years ago
    The Maverick Wars begin

    Infected by the unknown computer virus, Sigma defects to the side of the Mavericks and leads a revolt against human leadership. The wars between the Mavericks and the Maverick Hunters for the future of humanity begins.

    1XX years ago
    Fall of the colony “Eurasia”

    Under Sigma’s orders, the Reploid mercenary Dynamo causes an obsolete space colony “Eurasia” to crash into Earth. Along with recognizing the threat of the Mavericks anew, the human leadership professes its aim of eradicating all Mavericks. The site that became a contamination zone is dubbed Area Zero, and for the next 100 years would be barred from entry.

    1XX years ago
    The Nightmare Incident

    “The Nightmare Incident” occurs, an event where a subspecies of the Sigma Virus that attracts attention as the Nightmare Virus spreads throughout the world. The fact was proven that Zero was its source, as he was a carrier of the Sigma Virus, and was contagious to his surroundings as he worked across the world as a Hunter. In finding this, the human leadership decides for Zero to be sealed away, but due to the influence of scientists studying the Sigma Virus, his cognitive program was removed from his body so the two could be researched separately.

    1XX years ago
    The birth of the Mother Elf

    A Reploid researcher of this time (Dr. Ciel’s great-grandmother) studies Zero’s cognitive program and discovers an antibody to the Sigma Virus. She completes the Mother Elf, a program lifeform that can rewrite and erase the Sigma Virus. Afterwards, the scientists in the field of researching the Sigma Virus make researching Cyber Elves their focus.

    1XX years ago
    The Elf Wars rise from the Maverick Wars

    There are many historians who define the end of the Maverick Wars as the period when the number of Mavericks dropped significantly due to X’s using the Mother Elf. In actuality there is no enduring the conflict, and afterwards the latter period of the Maverick Wars came to be known as the Elf Wars.

    1XX years ago
    The proposal of Project Elpizo

    A member of the humans researching Cyber Elves proposes “Project Elpizo,” an operation to create a Reploid that’s a perfect ruler using the Mother Elf’s program rewriting ability. X opposed this operation, but out of fear of a long-lasting war support begins for complete control of Reploids. The confrontation of X’s “philosophy of coexistence” and the human leadership’s “philosophy of rule” begins.

[KaZudra]

ummm, Why are people arguing over Reploids.

Do a little research and you'll find that all reploids are Replica Androids (as stated in one of the Manuals in the PSX games)
and, yes, they have derived from X
Zero was the source of the Maverick virus, possibly from replicated technology of Evil cores in MM8 (Since the Evil Robot was purple, and the virus is usually purple)
Axl, however, Doesn't exist to me. along with X7 (X8 and Cm were pretty fun, but I went Zero route)

Fact: X isn't originally X at all, the original X was Zero, which kinda explains his role in the first game and his "logo" to have ZX mark

Factoid: I was a Heavy Rockman Fan before reprising my fandom of castlevania

[crisis]

Factoid: I was a Heavy Rockman Fan before reprising my fandom of castlevania

Likewise... been an addict since mm2... but...

[KaZudra]

Likewise... been an addict since mm2... but...

castlevania came along? yeah, we can all relate lol

[Flame]

Do a little research and you'll find that all reploids are Replica Androids (as stated in one of the Manuals in the PSX games)

None of the Playstation Manuals from X4-X6 say any such thing. And all manuals from the localized versions should be taken with a grain of salt. Manuls from the SNES games, X1-3, should not be believed at all. Consider manuals inaccurate. The first 3 games had terribly localized manuals. especially X2.

Zero was the source of the Maverick virus,

His capsule was, not himself. he was infected and became a carrier. read the timeline.

possibly from replicated technology of Evil cores in MM8 (Since the Evil Robot was purple, and the virus is usually purple)

The Evil Energy has nothing to do with the virus besides inspiration. The Evil Energy does not cause robots to grow violent and riotous. Robotenza does. Wily got the IDEA for a virus with a body of energy from the Evil Energy, but nothing more. The Sigma Virus is a sub-species of Robotenza. Color should not be taken at face value. iof we go by color then, the Sigma virus is more of a purple-pink than pure purple.

Axl, however, Doesn't exist to me. along with X7 (X8 and Cm were pretty fun, but I went Zero route)

Except despite your personal tastes, they do exist as far as the actual line of events goes.

[KaZudra]

His capsule was, not himself. he was infected and became a carrier. read the timeline.

Explain how he was infected if he was a carrier. Can't have both.

Except despite your personal tastes, they do exist as far as the actual line of events goes.

acutally no, Zero1-2 picks up from Zero's ending in X6 when he rests in a capsule, X7, X8, and CM belong to an alternate timeline based on X's ending in X6.

besides, If Cain Discovered X and Soon later the Birth of Replicate androids, and Speaking that very few docters could make robots in the original series, it would be safe to say that (at that time) Light was the only mind capable of making an Android with Free will, Soon after X was discovered, Reploids are made.

The Evil Energy has nothing to do with the virus besides inspiration. The Evil Energy does not cause robots to grow violent and riotous. Robotenza does. Wily got the IDEA for a virus with a body of energy from the Evil Energy, but nothing more. The Sigma Virus is a sub-species of Robotenza. Color should not be taken at face value. iof we go by color then, the Sigma virus is more of a purple-pink than pure purple.[/qutoe]
Its a theory since Zero originally had the Virus as a carrier, Zero was still more advanced than X in X1, and other factors in such. Granted of Wily's Robot making skills, it would be inpossible fo him to make Zero with his own resources, He Didn't with Bass.

[crisis]

Actually that ending in X6 that shows Zero being sealed is supposed to take place at a later date, presumably at the end of 21XX. And that was only the first time, he gets sealed twice. But the developers had to do "damage control" due to the X series continuing when it was supposed to end at X5 & the Zero series being active, and thenkdjrifiie&4!he



i am not getting baited into this shenanigans of the MM series again ive had these discussions 7 years ago

[Inccubus]

By that logic, I can say that Spaghetti is a replica of chinese Noodles because they are based on the same concept.

or that lords of Shadow is a replica of God of war because they feature similar combat.

I LOL'd at this because Spaghetti IS basically a replica of Chinese noodles since they were the earliest known makers of string flour dough. The legend of Marco Polo aside it seems likely that the idea for pasta probably did make it's way to Italy from China over the centuries.

[Flame]

Explain how he was infected if he was a carrier. Can't have both.

how so?
let me reiterate. He became a carrier when he was infected. He did not succumb to it and go insane due to his unique connection with the Virus- it affects him differently than others.

acutally no, Zero1-2 picks up from Zero's ending in X6 when he rests in a capsule, X7, X8, and CM belong to an alternate timeline based on X's ending in X6.

Actually, no. There is nothing to say that is true. X6's Zero ending takes place at a further date in the X series.

besides, If Cain Discovered X and Soon later the Birth of Replicate androids,

Reploids. not replicates. The word has never been explained to mean such.

unless you can consider a robot whale a replica of X.

and Speaking that very few docters could make robots in the original series, it would be safe to say that (at that time) Light was the only mind capable of making an Android with Free will, Soon after X was discovered, Reploids are made.

not sure what your point is.

Its a theory since Zero originally had the Virus as a carrier, Zero was still more advanced than X in X1,

not more advanced. more powerful maybe, but only because X was not utilizing his full potential and abilities

 

Granted of Wily's Robot making skills, it would be inpossible fo him to make Zero with his own resources, He Didn't with Bass.

do not underestimate wily. he IS a genius. he is second only to light.