Topic: The Map on Yoko's Room

[zangetsu468]

Nice find man, definitely great job on your part.  I never gave it much of a second look.

Thanks Dude. I'm still literally looking for the location, although I've taken a break. I think it's between Sweden and Copenhagen. 

[zangetsu468]

Again, apologies for the double post, I found another location which I believe fits the LOI map more suitably.

Re: theories of Mathias moving to "faraway/ foreign lands" by 1094's standards, it's anywhere between 900-1100 km from Romania.

In terms of DoS, the climate could be similar to that of the Lost Village (Snowing etc) and not removed from civilisation so vehicles couldn't reach it.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

The first image is LOI's map, the middle image is a location in Sweden, but it's been mirrored.

Matthias Cronqvist's surname is, ironically enough, Swedish in origin and means "Crown Twig" -- probably a reference to noble nonroyal lineage which would make sense as the narrator calls him a knight and knights by period tradition could only come from the noble classes of Europe in most countries. Quite literally, Lord Dracula was an actual Lord in-universe before he was Dracula. He might have actually come from Sweden at this rate, but this might also be coincidence. I've long thought Celia's cult repurposed Walter's castle, but my current line of thinking is "what if that's a castle that belonged to Mathias' family before he became Dracula?" Add in some admittedly vaguely Scandinavian design touches in the Lost Village and... it might actually be in Sweden guys.

Probably all coincidence though. My mind does so love to race.

[EDIT]

As I thought, any references to Dracula as a "Count" are A) post-Dark Lordification as Sweden has no records of any sort of [formally recognized] peerage earlier than 1280 AD or (more likely) B) a reference to the books and films that inspired the series -- he almost assuredly wouldn't have actually been a Count in-universe as the Church doesn't exactly hand out a Countship/Grafdom to the walking embodiment of Chaos that is their sworn enemy. Any noble heritage Mathias might have had in 1094 probably went WAAAAY back; possibly without any sort of formal title.

Now I seriously want to know more about this dude's family. Seriously.

[EDIT EDIT]

The rabbit hole goes deeper. At the risk of going off-topic almost completely, Knights in their present understanding only appear in the historic record at about 1200, though the concept of horse-mounted warriors in Europe goes back several centuries before that. Which would imply that first, there's a critical research failure on the part of Iga's guys here, and also that Leon and Mathias were probably among the very first modern knights in the Castlevania universe.

SHIT.

You deduce new stuff every day, it seems.

[EDIT EDIT EDIT]

DAMMIT.

If the castle Celia used was indeed Swedish and was indeed connected to Mathias pre-vampireization, it most likely belonged to him directly as given to him by (presumably) Inge the Elder or his brother, Blot-Sweyn, depending on when it would have been granted. Under some very old laws, Castles in Sweden prior to 1300 couldn't be considered hereditary and would have been returned to the King when the current grantor died.

Long story short, it's either Walter's damn Castle, or Mathias' own pre-Drac digs.

Depending on whether or not this place is actually in Sweden. But I think either one would be MASSIVELY attractive to Celia Fortner and her Dark Lord obsessed loonies.

[theplottwist]

[EDIT]

As I thought, any references to Dracula as a "Count" are A) post-Dark Lordification as Sweden has no records of any sort of [formally recognized] peerage earlier than 1280 AD or (more likely) B) a reference to the books and films that inspired the series -- he almost assuredly wouldn't have actually been a Count in-universe as the Church doesn't exactly hand out a Countship/Grafdom to the walking embodiment of Chaos that is their sworn enemy. Any noble heritage Mathias might have had in 1094 probably went WAAAAY back; possibly without any sort of formal title.

Mathias was already a Count by LoI's time. May be inconsistent with reality (as many things on CV's universe are), but it's true.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Mathias was already a Count by LoI's time. May be inconsistent with reality (as many things on CV's universe are), but it's true.

Well, there was no title ANYWHERE called a Count in 1094 (it doesn't emerge until much later), but I have no trouble reading that as he was some equivalent rank and just updated the wording when the term eventually came about, which is something actual historians do in real life as well. So, at least to me, that seems to make the most sense.

Therefore, strictly speaking, he's always been essentially a Count even if that wasn't always the term used to describe his rank.

Certainly by the time Trevor Belmont came to whip him at the head off, the term "count" had come into adoption, so in terms of game canon, he goes from "essentially a Count but semantically not" to "actual Count for all intents and purposes plus he's the Dark Lord who's gonna argue with him" literally on the next notch in the timeline down from LoI.

As for who's gonna argue with him, clearly Trevor did. With a whip. His argument seems to have had mixed results.

[theplottwist]

Well, there was no title ANYWHERE called a Count in 1094 (it doesn't emerge until much later), but I have no trouble reading that as he was some equivalent rank and just updated the wording when the term eventually came about, which is something actual historians do in real life as well. So, at least to me, that seems to make the most sense.

Therefore, strictly speaking, he's always been essentially a Count even if that wasn't always the term used to describe his rank.

Certainly by the time Trevor Belmont came to whip him at the head off, the term "count" had come into adoption, so in terms of game canon, he goes from "essentially a Count but semantically not" to "actual Count for all intents and purposes plus he's the Dark Lord who's gonna argue with him" literally on the next notch in the timeline down from LoI.

As for who's gonna argue with him, clearly Trevor did. With a whip. His argument seems to have had mixed results.

Also, I just want to add I didn't take it from some speculation or something. It was on Mathias' bio itself:



It says: "A prodigious genius tactician in a knighthood society where education is neglected. He has a close relationship with Leon, and has the title of Count/Earl. He fell ill after losing his wife Elisabetha. The person who told Leon his fiance had been kidnapped."

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Also, I just want to add I didn't take it from some speculation or something. It was on Mathias' bio itself:



It says: "A prodigious genius tactician in a knighthood society where education is neglected. He has a close relationship with Leon, and has the title of Count/Earl. He fell ill after losing his wife Elisabetha. The person who told Leon his fiance had been kidnapped."

I will point out that, at least in-game, he's never been referred to as a count prior to the term coming into use -- every time he's been called Count Dracula has been in a calendar year that takes place after the term began to come into wide adoption, which I think bolsters this theory.

But given the evidence you provided, I would definitely go with Earl -- at least for his original title. Not only is it an older title that goes back further than Count, but it's also almost exactly equivalent in rank and social standing in the British Isles and Scandinavia, making it a more accurate translation in terms of communicating meaning. As mentioned before, Mathias' surname definitely pegs him as a Swede and this is actually a real world detail that Castlevania has historically gotten mostly right, so Earl is very likely the one.

So... they did do their homework when writing Lament after all. It's actually hitting the target pretty dead-center in that regard. So it would seem that when he made his war upon mankind later on, he simply presented himself using a contemporary but equivalent title that the rest of Europe would have easily recognized by that time -- which is actually pretty smart. But Dracula is also a pretty modern man who is routinely slightly ahead of whichever time he tends to appear in, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by that.

I wonder what he did to merit the promotion; Earls in his day couldn't usually inherit the title (though the King automatically appointing the eldest son of a previous Earl out of a sense of gratitude wasn't unheard of). So now I'm wondering how he came by that title, but that's another question for another thread.

[Dracula9]

I wonder what he did to merit the promotion; Earls in his day couldn't usually inherit the title (though the King automatically appointing the eldest son of a previous Earl out of a sense of gratitude wasn't unheard of). So now I'm wondering how he came by that title, but that's another question for another thread.

by being really fucking pretty

[Lumi Kløvstad]

by being really fucking pretty

Historian that I am, I can honestly say without a hint of joking or irony that this probably no-kidding helped -- Scandinavians had a reputation for being much cleaner and practicing better hygiene than other Europeans in the Early Modern and Middle Ages; even commoners bathed once a week as opposed to once every 2-3 months (if one was royalty elsewhere) or even worse, once annually (if you were a lucky peasant). They also brushed their teeth and even washed their hair with shampoo, all of which is well documented by historians of the period. Mathias honestly would have simply appeared to be ungodly beautiful for his age just because he came from a society that prized personal hygiene more than their contemporaries.

Leon probably wondered how Mathias kept his hair so silky and awesome and when Mathias told him about shampoo, Leon wouldn't have believed him.
It only would have made sense later after learning about Mathias' work with alchemy that Leon would have realized that Mathias wasn't just blowing smoke about it, but Leon would have just assumed it was some sort of witchcraft or alchemic process. No Leon, literally everyone in Sweden was doing it. You just came from a backwards Barony in 11th century France.

Also: the Church seriously DID consider Scandinavian bathing habits to be the Devil's Work as Viking invaders were accused of "making themselves beautiful to seduce honest Christian women and take them back to their Devil Gods" as the Catholic Church held bathing regularly to be a symptom of the sin of Vanity up until the Late Renaissance period.

So yeah. Mathias really might have been that goddamn pretty for his time.

You meant it as a joke, but then HISTORY! happened. 

[Dracula9]

I'm a descendant of legendary Nordic royalty--who said it was entirely a joke? 

[theplottwist]

I will point out that, at least in-game, he's never been referred to as a count prior to the term coming into use -- every time he's been called Count Dracula has been in a calendar year that takes place after the term began to come into wide adoption, which I think bolsters this theory.

But given the evidence you provided, I would definitely go with Earl -- at least for his original title. Not only is it an older title that goes back further than Count, but it's also almost exactly equivalent in rank and social standing in the British Isles and Scandinavia, making it a more accurate translation in terms of communicating meaning. As mentioned before, Mathias' surname definitely pegs him as a Swede and this is actually a real world detail that Castlevania has historically gotten mostly right, so Earl is very likely the one.

So... they did do their homework when writing Lament after all. It's actually hitting the target pretty dead-center in that regard. So it would seem that when he made his war upon mankind later on, he simply presented himself using a contemporary but equivalent title that the rest of Europe would have easily recognized by that time -- which is actually pretty smart. But Dracula is also a pretty modern man who is routinely slightly ahead of whichever time he tends to appear in, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by that.

I wonder what he did to merit the promotion; Earls in his day couldn't usually inherit the title (though the King automatically appointing the eldest son of a previous Earl out of a sense of gratitude wasn't unheard of). So now I'm wondering how he came by that title, but that's another question for another thread.

Ah so that makes sense. I omitted the term "Earl" because "Hakushaku" also means Count. When I first found out about this bio, I did a bit of research and the results I got told me "Earl" and "Count" were "the same thing". But as you say now, they apparently are not. Sorry for omitting it.

Also, I should mention Leon does refer to Mathias as "Lord", indicating there a nobility position.

[Shiroi Koumori]

Wow! I never knew that the Scandinavians practiced better hygiene than the rest of Europe during that era.

[Nagumo]

I don't have a anything to add to this discussion, but I just want to say that I'm surprised I overlooked that bit of Mathias already being count during LoI's time. I remember complaining that Dracula having the title of count during the later games was never properly explained. Of course, I considered I might have to do with Mathias' background as a knight but I dismissed it because I assumed he was never refered to by that title in any of the materials. So in short, interesting!

[zangetsu468]

Regarding geographical origins of people's names:

Cronqvist (Kronqvist) seems to originate from Sweden
Bernhard seems to be German in origin, while
Gandolfi seems to be Italian in origin

Not that it matters, but I initially thought that perhaps there was a link to the location, particularly with either Walter or Mathias.

The location I've picked lies between Finland and Russia, approximately 1100 km North of Romania. Not that it's 100% conclusive, but it's not in an impractical location, and as I've said Europe is littered with Castles.

Logically, the odds are that it could either belong to Mathias or Walter. In LOI, I never got the impression the Castle belonged to Mathias, if anything it seemed to be more Walter's Castle if anything. However I have also mentioned this in an old old thread that I do believe ownership of the castle was transferred to Mathias (and subsequently to Death, after Mathias fled the castle) after he had Death use the Crimson Stone to absorb Walter's soul. Perhaps this castle only required or desired a strong dark/ vampiric energy to rule it (as evidenced by Joachim's ending). This could explain how Walter inherited the Castle, but why it crumbled after Leon beat Death.

The importance of the Castle location isn't where, but that if this hypothesis is correct, that it's not THE Castlevania.

It's possible that there's a link to the underworld in this forest which was the original castle's source of "chaos". It's also possible Celia's cult rebuilt this to mimic Dracula's (previous) Castle, as it's clear the DOS Castle is no replica of LOI's. 

[Dracula9]

Wow! I never knew that the Scandinavians practiced better hygiene than the rest of Europe during that era.

There's a reason we were conquerors and explorers and feared across Europe--we were cleaner (so less likely to drop dead from a minor-ass disease) and better-looking (causing the enemy to be so infatuated with our braided beards and flowing locks that they became easy sport) and nobody stood a chance.

We never wore horned helmets though.