Topic: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches

[Neobelmont]

Well this is a very sensitive topic, even asking how to correctly differentiate between equal-rights activists and outright "urban amazons" could very well end up offending the one you don't mean to. I suppose it really is a matter of eloquence.

I may not know about awhole lot about this topic, but damn tred softly and carry a big stick, because things can get out of hand real quickly. I remember in my english class the one before 101. We were talking about race and the boarder in california and man things got hella heated. Edit:
  some sounded racist when they did not mean to some people felt like they were attacked and attacked others man it's coming back to me. Again got to be careful about how one enters a situation.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I think the issue here is generalizing and painting people with a really wide brush.
Such acts are met with some pushback, especially when you're the one being hit with said brush.

I'm not offended.  I certainly haven't been an activist about it.  But by the very definition of the word, I am a feminist.  I'm not a 'straw feminist' (which is what seems to be the feminist 'caricature' that's being talked about here, also called 'feminazi' or 'straw feminist', like in the 2nd video the woman in the thread talks about).  However, I am somewhat concerned about the lack of knowledge about this from some of the people here.

I'm certainly not the type that refuses to call the manhole cover and wants to rename it 'person-hole cover'.  That's just stupid.

[Gunlord]

The problem is, Jorgey-sama, that every group (be it racial, religious, or whatever) has extremists the rest of them would like to keep away from. My parents are a good example of this. They're Muslim, and if you were to tell them, "you're not like *those* crazy Muslims," they'd probably agree. This is because they're lax Sunni Muslims who have little in common with...shall we say, harsher Wahabis or even the Shias (Sunnis represent the majority of Muslims, but Shias are the second largest denomination IIRC, and big in Iran). You could tell a black fella he's not like that other black dude...and if the other black dude is the "Rent is Too Damn High" guy, he might agree (XD XD).

That said, it's nice to believe that feminism is "just" about gender equality. However, at the risk of being an impertinent prunyuu, I would question whether or not *you* understand the term if you believe that. Now, I understand that this thread is just about Anita's videos rather than feminism in general, so if you think I'm going too far off-topic I'll drop the subject. I also consider you a friend, and I quite genuinely respect you. Despite all this, many of us here--not just me, but other posters as well, and I hope you have some degree of respect for all of us, or at least our intellects--seem to be fairly leery of a large subset of feminism, and perhaps feminism in general. I think at least a few of us have legitimate reasons for disliking feminism as a whole, to the extent that we'd be surprised at seeing a cool guy like you adhere to the ideology. Before feeling like we're attacking you, we might have some legitimate reasons for feeling as we do, if you'd care to hear them.

Again, though, only if you want to. I think I shall watch Anita's video right now, so we can talk about that if you want.

<_<

>_>

*mews*

[Neobelmont]

I think the issue here is generalizing and painting people with a really wide brush.
Such acts are met with some pushback, especially when you're the one being hit with said brush.

I'm not offended.  I certainly haven't been an activist about it.  But by the very definition of the word, I am a feminist.  I'm not a 'straw feminist' (which is what seems to be the feminist 'caricature' that's being talked about here, also called 'feminazi' or 'straw feminist', like in the 2nd video the woman in the thread talks about).  However, I am somewhat concerned about the lack of knowledge about this from some of the people here.

I'm certainly not the type that refuses to call the manhole cover and wants to rename it 'person-hole cover'.  That's just stupid.

Well you do not have to worry about me because I am lacking in this area and am trying to learn somewhat. Something like internation affairs and government(my information is locked but once I reread it comes back) like political science 2 and us government(poli 1) I would fare somewhat better. There is so much that it takes years to try and understand "everything".

The problem is, Jorgey-sama, that every group (be it racial, religious, or whatever) has extremists the rest of them would like to keep away from. My parents are a good example of this. They're Muslim, and if you were to tell them, "you're not like *those* crazy Muslims," they'd probably agree. This is because they're lax Sunni Muslims who have little in common with...shall we say, harsher Wahabis or even the Shias (Sunnis represent the majority of Muslims, but Shias are the second largest denomination IIRC, and big in Iran). You could tell a black fella he's not like that other black dude...and if the other black dude is the "Rent is Too Damn High" guy, he might agree (XD XD).

That said, it's nice to believe that feminism is "just" about gender equality. However, at the risk of being an impertinent prunyuu, I would question whether or not *you* understand the term if you believe that. Now, I understand that this thread is just about Anita's videos rather than feminism in general, so if you think I'm going too far off-topic I'll drop the subject. I also consider you a friend, and I quite genuinely respect you. Despite all this, many of us here--not just me, but other posters as well, and I hope you have some degree of respect for all of us, or at least our intellects--seem to be fairly leery of a large subset of feminism, and perhaps feminism in general. I think at least a few of us have legitimate reasons for disliking feminism as a whole, to the extent that we'd be surprised at seeing a cool guy like you adhere to the ideology. Before feeling like we're attacking you, we might have some legitimate reasons for feeling as we do, if you'd care to hear them.

Again, though, only if you want to. I think I shall watch Anita's video right now, so we can talk about that if you want.

<_<

>_>

*mews*

Can...can I pet you and rub your head?

[Lelygax]

*pats Gunlord* Nipaah~

Yeah, maybe its better to return to the main topic of this... topic.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

"That said, it's nice to believe that feminism is "just" about gender equality...."  Let me stop you right there.

Feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes "  Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Feminism: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."  Dictionary.com
Feminism: the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." oxforddictionaries.com
Feminism: Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." thefreedictionary.com
Feminism: The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."  The Google definition of the term.

^I support these definitions.  I don't think it gets any easier to understand than that.
I believe that the sexes should have equal rights.

Perhaps there are other people who tack on other definitions or define the term with some other connotations and caveats.  That's them.
By the very definition of the term as described above, since I support this, I am a feminist.

And if there are other people who support the theories on those definitions above, then they too, are feminists.  They may not be activist feminists holding up signs outside places of government, etc. but that doesn't stop it from being any more true.

[Neobelmont]

"That said, it's nice to believe that feminism is "just" about gender equality...."  Let me stop you right there.

Feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes "  Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Feminism: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."  Dictionary.com
Feminism: the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." oxforddictionaries.com
Feminism: Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." thefreedictionary.com
Feminism: The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."  The Google definition of the term.

^I support these definitions.  I don't think it gets any easier to understand than that.
I believe that the sexes should have equal rights.

Perhaps there are other people who tack on other definitions or define the term with some other connotations and caveats.  That's them.
By the very definition of the term as described above, since I support this, I am a feminist.

And if there are other people who support the theories on those definitions above, then they too, are feminists.  They may not be activist feminists holding up signs outside places of government, etc. but that doesn't stop it from being any more true.

yep it does not get any more easy than that. That part I knew, but yeah as far as communicating and having my hands a bit dirty I got absolute zero exp. But it's really no different than equal right's in the end in my opinion. Just pure equality. But I will say I'll still act old fashioned like open a door, but were paying 50/50 for dinner if it comes down to it. 

[Gunlord]

*rolls over for a belly-rub*

That said, I watched the video. It wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be. I actually learned a couple of things, like how Miyamoto worked on a game called Sheriff. The presentation was also competent and professional, though given the money Ms. Sarkeesian made I expected better. It's also nice she demonstrates familiarity with many classic games; not just Muriu and Zaldu but our own beloved Castlevania, Ghosts and Goblins, etc.

I can concede this, but still find her video uninteresting--not even bad, but just uninteresting, which is an even harsher criticism coming from me--by noting that she fails to do one very important thing:

Tell the viewer what he or she is supposed to do about all this.

Yes, Ms. Sarkeesian, we can admit the stereotypes buttressed by the "damsel in distress" trope are pernicious, at least if we assume the differences between men and women are "socially constructed" (which is a very generous assumption, but let's not get into that now). We can even agree that it's "lazy storytelling." However, the inevitable question arises: What, Ms. Sarkeesian, would you consider to be a better story, particularly for children's games (as Mario is)? You have no suggestions? Not even any examples of games "doing it right?" Considering we've had Metroid since the 80s--and more recent entries such as Mirror's Edge, too--I find this hard to believe. Would it really have been so hard to cite a few of these examples as proof games *can* do better? Why did you simply dedicate the better part of twenty-three minutes and thirty-five seconds to essentially nothing but negativity? Yes, you have the nice little anecdote about Dinosaur Planet, but even that is used as a negative example (Krystal's show was stolen by Fox). Why not look at games with strong female protagonists that actually were released? It may be true, as you said, to look at even things we love with a critical eye and examine their "problematic" aspects. But a skilled critic observes the good as well as the bad, and finding a problem should involve finding a solution too. I waited for over twenty minutes and saw none of that, so I came away bored.

Perhaps it may be that there are no positive examples Ms. Sarkeesian could find. That beggars belief, but once again, I will accept that assumption for the purposes of argument. Yet I still come away from her video unsatisfied and uninterested. If the trope she described truly is so terrible and socially regressive, what does she want us to do about it? She does nothing in the entire video besides tell us the trope's history and why it's bad; this is fairly banal if you already accept her premises and certainly not worth all the money she was given. I would have been much more intrigued had she addressed the viewer--indirectly, preferably, but even directly would have been nice, though graceless. Tell us what we can do to fight the trope. Buy videogames involving Strong Heroines who are Subjects, not Objects? Develop our own videogames where Strong Heroines are Subjects, not Objects? Complain to Big Devs until they start making videogames where Strong Heroines are Subjects, not Objects? All three are plausible, though I much prefer the first two methods. Yet she doesn't name a single one--or any other, for that matter.

And thus, after watching the whole thing, Gunlord-kun will regard her video disinterestedly, likely regard her future videos with equal disinterest, and find something much more engaging to do--namely, wandering off to his fellow Dungeonites for more headpats and scritchies.

Mew.

[Shiroi Koumori]

@Neobelmont: A speech/debate class is great for your degree.

@Gunlord: コチョコチョ *koochie-koochie koo* Here have some canned tuna.

Feminism such a big overlapping theory with loads of subclasses...
So choose your pick.

Types of Feminism (really long pile of data)

(click to show/hide)

Amazon feminism: Focuses on the image of the female hero, both fictional and real, in literature and art, and is particularly concerned with physical equality. Opposes gender role stereotypes and discrimination against women, particularly images of women as passive, weak, and physically helpless.

Anarcho-feminism: Anarchist branch of radical feminism based on the work of Emma Goldman. Focuses on critiquing society based on race, gender, and social class.

Cultural feminism: Focuses on women’s inherent differences from men, including their “natural” kindness, tendencies to nurture, pacifism, relationship focus, and concern for others. Opposes an emphasis on equality and instead argues for increased value placed on culturally designated “women’s work.”

Difference feminism:See cultural feminism. Emphasizes women’s difference/uniqueness and traditionally “feminine” characteristics; argues that more value should be placed on these qualities.

Erotic feminism: German-based feminism emphasizing the philosophical, metaphysical, and life-creating value of erotic life. Argues that sexuality opposes war and is thus distinctly feminine.

Ecofeminism: Argues against patriarchal tendencies to destroy the environment, animals, and natural resources. Focuses on efforts to stop plundering of Earth’s resources, often drawing parallels between exploitation of women and exploitation of the Earth. Frequently connected with spirituality and vegetarianism.

Equality feminism: Focuses on gaining equality between men and women in all domains (work, home, sexuality, law). Argues that women should receive all privileges given to men and that biological differences between men and women do not justify inequality. Most common form of feminism represented in the media.

Essentialist feminism: Focuses on “true” “biological” differences between men and women, arguing that women are essentially different from men but equal in value (i.e.,“separate but equal”).

Feminazism: Militant form of radical feminism that embraces the hostile term “feminazi” (taken from the “Nazi” reference to fascism), originally and most often used as a hateful label for feminists. These feminists are often highly disliked by popular culture and ghettoized as “crazy,” “outrageous,” and “bitchy.”

Feminism and women of color: Focuses on multiple forms of oppression (race and gender in particular, but also sexuality and social class). First feminism to draw attention to the whiteness of mainstream feminism and the need to look at race and gender.
Fourth-world feminism: Focuses on the power relationships between colonizers and (native) colonized people. Argues against the process of colonization, whereby native cultures are stripped of their customs, values, land, and traditions and forced to adopt the colonizers’ ways of life.

French feminism: Movement by a set of French feminist thinkers (Julia Kristeva, Luce Irigaray, Simone de Beauvoir, Monique Wittig, Hélène Cixous, and others), mainly in the 1970s, who reshaped feminist thought by adding a philosophical focus to feminist theory. These feminists were associated with several male intellectuals of the time, including Derrida, Bataille, and Barthes.

Individual/libertarian feminism: Argues for minimal government intervention, anarchy, and an end to capitalism. Focuses on individual autonomy, rights, liberty, independence, and diversity.

Lesbian feminism: Diverse feminism based on the rejection of institutionalized heterosexism, particularly the primacy of the nuclear family, and the lack of legal recognition afforded to lesbians. Argues that lesbian identity is both personal and political, and actively works against homophobia.

Liberal feminism:See equality feminism. Focuses on working within institutions to gain equality for women (e.g., the vote, equal protection under the law) but does not focus on changing the entire institution (e.g., doing away with government). Often at odds with radical feminism.

Marxist/socialist feminism: Attributes women’s oppression to a capitalist economy and the private property system. Argues that capitalism must be overthrown if the oppression of women is to end. Draws parallels between women and “workers” and emphasizes collective change rather than individual change.

Material feminism: Late-19th-century movement to liberate women by improving their material conditions, removing domestic responsibilities such as cooking and housework, and allowing women to earn their own wages.

Moderate feminism: Similar to liberal feminism; sees the importance of change within institutions. Argues for small steps toward gender equality. Often comprised of younger women who espouse feminist ideas without calling themselves “feminists.”

Pop feminism: Focuses on caricatures of “girl power” idols and “Wonder Woman” images. Sometimes derided by feminists, but often attracts young women interested in empowerment but uninterested in social change and activism. Examples include Powerpuff Girls, She-Ra, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Charlie’s Angels.

Postcolonial feminism: Emphasizes a rejection of colonial power relationships (in which the colonizer strips the colonized subject of her customs, traditions, and values). Argues for the deconstruction of power relationships and the inclusion of race within feminist analyses. Usually includes all feminist writings not from Britain or the United States.

Postfeminism: Feminism informed by psychoanalysis, postmodernism, and postcolonialism. Emphasizes multiple forms of oppression, multiple definitions of feminism, and a shift beyond equality as the major goal of the feminist movement.

Postmodern feminism: Critiques the male/female binary and argues against this binary as the organizing force of society.
Advocates deconstructionist techniques of blurring boundaries, eliminating dichotomies, and accepting multiple realities rather than searching for a singular “truth.”

Psychoanalytic feminism: Uses psychoanalysis as a tool of female liberation by revising certain patriarchal tenants, such as Freud’s view on mothering, Oedipal/Electra complex, penis envy, and female sexuality.

Radical feminism: Cutting-edge branch of feminism focused on sweeping social reforms, social change, and revolution. Argues against institutions like patriarchy, heterosexism, and racism and instead emphasizes gender as a social construction, denouncing biological roots of gender difference. Often paves the way for other branches of feminism.

Separatist feminism: Advocates separation from men, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. Argues for women-only spaces, large and small, including lesbian separatist living communities, women-only music festivals, and consciousness-raising groups. Often emphasizes healing and connection between women that male-patriarchal spaces prohibit. Sometimes promotes spelling “women” as “womyn” in order to remove “men” from the word “women.”

Socialist feminism: Blend of Marxist feminism and radical feminism. Argues against capitalism and for socialism, saying that collective efforts to overthrow existing economic systems ultimately will benefit women.

Third-world feminism:See postcolonial feminism. Emphasizes feminist scholarship outside Britain and the United States and the ways in which capitalism shapes all relationships of dominance. Shows how oppression of women by men is similar to oppression of third-world countries by first-world countries.

[X]

Separatist feminism: Advocates separation from men, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. Argues for women-only spaces, large and small, including lesbian separatist living communities, women-only music festivals, and consciousness-raising groups. Often emphasizes healing and connection between women that male-patriarchal spaces prohibit. Sometimes promotes spelling “women” as “womyn” in order to remove “men” from the word “women.”

I find this one to be most concerning. Both Women and men were created equally by a Mother and Father God. The blueprint for women came from mother God (Azna) while the blueprint for men came from Father God (Om). And just like them, we were meant to be together. I don't like the idea of an all-women's club and I already hate the idea of the all-boys club. Deliberate segregation of the two sexes is crap. We were all meant to be together. It is the universal truth about humanity that unfortunately many have tried to either deny or destroy. In the end, we all drift towards one another. There's just no avoiding it in any way, shape or form. It's inherent in all of us, even the loners (like me). There's no deprogramming the divine truth out of us, it's impossible.

[Lelygax]

Gunlord, we need to wait for part 2, she is holding all the positive things on purpose, you can see that when she cites Super Princess Peach. But yeah, its kinda boring, you deserve milk and a nap for enduring this until the end.

*puts milk to Gun-kun drink*

Shiroi Koumori, bravo! That is a great help to clear the things here.