Topic: General Mega Man Discussion Thread

[X]

Geez guys! I could just sit here and read all this juicy stuff for hours on end and still be fascinated! But personally I've always thought that the word 'Reploid' meant 'Replicated Humanoid'. I never considered them to be a form of androids cause X and Zero always came off to me as something much, much more then a simple Replicated Android.

[Maedhros]

Megaman?

Omae wa mou shindeiru!

[Flame]

Geez guys! I could just sit here and read all this juicy stuff for hours on end and still be fascinated! But personally I've always thought that the word 'Reploid' meant 'Replicated Humanoid'. I never considered them to be a form of androids cause X and Zero always came off to me as something much, much more then a simple Replicated Android.

if it were just "reploid" maybe. part of the reason people come up with that sometimes is because the japanese term is "repliroid"

[Inccubus]

If I ever get a chance to ask Keiji Inafune about Repliroid standing for "Replicate Android" or whatever I will do so and report back. It still seems highly unlikely that they randomly came up with the term repliroid without having the meanings of the two words in mind especially considering that the Japanese language itself often considers the meanings of both kanji when forming the a compound word. This is especially true of foreign words that are used as a contracted term. It is a very common practice in Japan. Plus add to that the term for mindless robots that are also based on X's technology, the mechaniloids (which was likely mistranslated and intended to be mechaniroids). It's obviously a contraction mechanical + android, although admittedly mechaniroids are often not of a humanoid form. Mechanical doesn't quite fit either until you consider that it is the derivative word for the term mecha which is a common term in Japanese culture for a machine.

And, yes, if the reploid whale is made using X's technology he does count as a replica. Why? DNA. All living things are in body is the end product of a very long line of replicated organic technology. The ancestors of whales were wolf-like terrestrial mammals, the technology that went into their descendants (DNA) is imperfectly copied (as Dr. Cain did with X's DNA) and results in something slightly different every time.

[Flame]

X's DNA is not something so trivially copied.
His DNA along with Zero's, is unanalyzable. both X and Zero are unanalyzable. They are beyod the reach of 21XX science. Only Gate has ever come close to cracking Zero's DNA any time before the 50 year period of Zero's initial seal that yeilded Cyber Elves.

X is the prototype for all Reploids, much like Protoman is the prototype for robots of the last generation. Reploids do NOT have his DNA, otherwise Sigma wouldn't be so hellbent on getting it.

Reploids are based on his design concept, his overall type. They are not copies of X. they each have unique minds and bodies, and personalities, as well as individual DNA. The only "replicas" of X, are Copy X and Pantheons, they are the only ones ever directly referred to as replicas-


Mega Man is not a replica of Protoman. Splash Woman is not a replica of Protoman. Hard Man is not a replica of Protoman.

Reploids are to X what past generation robots are to Protoman and Rock.

also- consider this. The Big 4, are themselves made directly from X's DNA. They were made from the 4 fragments of X's soul when it was forced out and split into 5 upon sealing Dark Elf with his body. They are known as "X-Bioroids".
Even then they are still not replicas. Because they are not copies.

Copy X himself, was created with the same technology that created the big 4. only the remaining fragment of X's soul, (X himself) refused to return.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

LOL @ DNA being used for Robots (I'd use what the game says "RNA" but there's a thing called "RNA" in real life- ribonucleic acid, though they meant "Robot Nucleic Acid"? xD)

And yes, Rock is a derivative of ProtoMan.
Rock's design perfected the supposed flaws of ProtoMan though.
The first six (Fire, Bomb, Guts, Cut, Elec, and Ice Man) are derivatives of Rock's design.

Wily's robots are using Wily's own technology, but that technology and knowhow comes from when he tinkered with the Original Six.  Wily essentially saw what Light was doing with his robots (he was Light's assistant at one point, wasn't he?  Regardless of whether he was or wasn't, he has seen the capabilities of the original six when he tinkered with their logic circuits) and once he failed at his plan on MegaMan1, got ideas of his own for creating his own robots.

While Wily may not be using the same exact code, one can argue that the Second Eight (Flash, Quick, Metal, Wood, Air, Crash, Heat, and Bubble Man) 'could' be derivatives of the Original Six (if they use the same software code), but could be their own robots with their own code.

So any Wily robot 'could' be a derivative of the Second Eight, all the way to the latest Wily Robot (presumably that would be Zero?), if they are all based on the same original codeset, much in the same way that you have videogames that run on the engines of other games, but have improvements and optimizations.

The same goes true for Light's robots, though I believe he stopped at Roll and then just optimized Rock constantly until when he started getting old, and realized he would need a new type of android (I've been using the term "Robot" up until now because the robots in the original series do not all have human designs and seem to be task-oriented; that is to say, they are meant to do certain tasks as opposed to having 'lives' as well as jobs... though Light's robots all seem humanoid enough...).

I'm with Inccubus on this one.  Flame, you're waaaaay too caught up in semantics.

[Flame]

I live on about 3 megaman forums, and 1 wiki. Semantics is part of the member description.

EDIT: this is nothing. you should SEE some of the discussions we get into on megaman boards. lol.

besides, i made the topic for this reason. to argue about megaman like we argue about Castlevania.

ah, but you say "derrivative". im arguing against usage of the term "replica".

Wily wasnt Light's assistant though. that was localization. he was light's colleague and classmate at the institute, but beyond that they never worked together professionally aside from MM3.

Wily got access to light technology far before the original 6- he repaired Protoman when he ran away.

protoman, then just a robot similar to Rock pre- MM1, ran away when light planned to fix a defect in his energy system, feeling he would lose his originality and free will. (didnt trust Light much). he ran away and eventually collapsed from his defect. Wily found him, and repaired him, replacing his solar reactor for a Nuclear one, thinking the problem was the reactor itself. he also armed him with combat capabilities and a helmet with shades so Light wouldnt recognize him. Unfortunately, replacing the reactor did not solve the problem, and he retained the defect. So he was given a shield, and fights with a gun-and-run fight style. (reason he jumps around and moves alot when fighting)

From that encounter, he learned how to work Light's technology, eventually leading to his reprogramming of the 6 industrial Lightbots. Protoman stuck with him out of gratitude for saving his life, but he did occasionally drop by to challenge Rock, testing his strength, and helping him out and opening paths. by the end, he also saved Rock from the self destruction of Wily's base.

By 4, he realized Wily's ambitions, (or had enough of them after putting up with them for a while) and deserted Wily, saving Kalinka, thus ending his brother's fight with Cossack.

also- funfact. in the localizations from 3-7, Rock knows protoman is his brother. in the original scripts, Rock does not know this, and still doesnt. (its the racer X thing)

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

LOL RacerX.
Man I remember that nomenclature.

But yeah, the usage of "derivation" to "Replica" (and also terms like "Mutation" and "Corruption")is ambiguous when it comes to robots.  After all, you can put a part of a robot (a replica) into another if you have enough skill.  It's not like animals where you (generally) cannot put an animal part into a human (though some advances in today's world have made some transplants possible).

A hardware part can be mass-produced or replicated if you know the source code for its architecture (which would be the engineering equivalent to DNA), and if you have the manufacturing schematics (which would be the physical parts).  Since you always start with a prototype (hardware) and an Alpha Source Code (software), one could conceptualize that any source code based upon the Alpha is, indeed, a derivative code, and modules from that code could remain intact from the original, thus serving as 'replicated' code, but one can MOST DEFINITELY have replicas of hardware.  Hell, it's the reason we have thousands of cars that are exactly alike.

So for cars, robots, androids, etc. you can most definitely have "derivatives" that use exactly the same parts as originals in terms of software modules in the code, as well as physical replica parts.  The best real-world example I could think of is today's cars and the computers that drive them.  Sure, you may have a 2011 Lexus but it's likely that a lot of its computerized code contains code from the original Lexus programming, and most definitely you may have similar or identical (replica) parts of past Lexus models within.  It's just better business sense... though I'm not sure business sense is something Light and Wily were thinking of, haha.

[Flame]

Lol.

let me post some arguments discussions we have had on other boards. DEEEEEEEP ones.

http://megamanx9.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3881-reasons-why-neither-serges-nor-isoc-might-not-have-been-wily

http://megamanx9.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3031-x-declares-war-against-the-government

http://megamanx9.com/forum/index.php?/topic/236-lights-capsules/

http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=4021.0

http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=2276.0

http://www.themmnetwork.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1111-why-did-zero-get-shoulder-pads-in-x2/

http://www.themmnetwork.com/forums/index.php?/topic/863-concerning-serges-and-wily/

id say this is nothing in comparison

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

SPAMMER!!!!!
LOL just kiddin'.

[Flame]

I would say "shameless plug" myself, but, spam works too.

[Inccubus]

X's DNA is not something so trivially copied.
His DNA along with Zero's, is unanalyzable. both X and Zero are unanalyzable. They are beyod the reach of 21XX science. Only Gate has ever come close to cracking Zero's DNA any time before the 50 year period of Zero's initial seal that yeilded Cyber Elves.

X is the prototype for all Reploids, much like Protoman is the prototype for robots of the last generation. Reploids do NOT have his DNA, otherwise Sigma wouldn't be so hellbent on getting it.

Reploids are based on his design concept, his overall type. They are not copies of X. they each have unique minds and bodies, and personalities, as well as individual DNA. The only "replicas" of X, are Copy X and Pantheons, they are the only ones ever directly referred to as replicas-


Mega Man is not a replica of Protoman. Splash Woman is not a replica of Protoman. Hard Man is not a replica of Protoman.

Reploids are to X what past generation robots are to Protoman and Rock.

also- consider this. The Big 4, are themselves made directly from X's DNA. They were made from the 4 fragments of X's soul when it was forced out and split into 5 upon sealing Dark Elf with his body. They are known as "X-Bioroids".
Even then they are still not replicas. Because they are not copies.

Copy X himself, was created with the same technology that created the big 4. only the remaining fragment of X's soul, (X himself) refused to return.

I didn't mean DNA literally. I meant only that when you attempt to copy a technology without having the original documentation it has a similar effect to how DNA is imperfectly copied through generations. I wasn't referring to X & Zero "DNA" as used in-game. Additionally, when Light and Wily made their robots they were not trying to replicate Rock or Blues. They didn't need to since they came up with the technology themselves. Dr. Cain was trying to replicate X's technology because he didn't understand it, but failed. Hence the term he originally coined, regardless of it's later use. Copy X and the pantheons are no different than any other reploids save that they were an attempt by a different scientist to do the same thing that Dr. Cain attempted with somewhat more success because of a greater understanding of robotic "DNA" I would presume. Besides, "DNA", souls, and the events of MMZX are irrelevant to the argument I'm making that in the strictest non colloquial sense, X and Zero are not reploids. And I have seen no evidence that directly contradicts the obvious meaning for the word "repliroid" given the culture it comes from to begin with.

[KaZudra]

I didn't mean DNA literally. I meant only that when you attempt to copy a technology without having the original documentation it has a similar effect to how DNA is imperfectly copied through generations. I wasn't referring to X & Zero "DNA" as used in-game. Additionally, when Light and Wily made their robots they were not trying to replicate Rock or Blues. They didn't need to since they came up with the technology themselves. Dr. Cain was trying to replicate X's technology because he didn't understand it, but failed. Hence the term he originally coined, regardless of it's later use. Copy X and the pantheons are no different than any other reploids save that they were an attempt by a different scientist to do the same thing that Dr. Cain attempted with somewhat more success because of a greater understanding of robotic "DNA" I would presume. Besides, "DNA", souls, and the events of MMZX are irrelevant to the argument I'm making that in the strictest non colloquial sense, X and Zero are not reploids. And I have seen no evidence that directly contradicts the obvious meaning for the word "repliroid" given the culture it comes from to begin with.

I agree, Reploids did Derive from X, but using a literal Replicate as in Copy X is nonsensical, its used as Replicate in Technology. The Reploids may not Replicate X's Design, but X's Trechnology.

plus I love how X has all this potential (greatly emphasized in MMX and the Remake) how he can just do amazing things (like break out of a Hold and Recharge energy) and in later games never advance X to use this potential, instead we get armors, which are good, but by X5 X is Overly dependent on them rather than becoming this ultimate machine he is capable of being (although in the Zero series He has used his potential, Kinda dissapointing for the players).

[Flame]

Im not arguing X and Zero being reploids or not. technically they are not, but they are considered as such because of they type of robots reploids are, and the usage of the word fits.

Im arguing what you call the "obvious" meaning of the word. I throw right back at you, you have shown no evidence that the term means repilca/ated android. Inafune and Inticreates, Inticreates ESPECIALLY, with their hard on for story and background, have never described the term as meaning anything other than humanoid robot, robot with humanlike mental ability. Only 2 tyoes of robots have been stated to be replicas. a replica is a copy of the original, a reproduction. Reploids are none of that. they are derivatives based on X's technology.

Additionally, when Light and Wily made their robots they were not trying to replicate Rock or Blues. They didn't need to since they came up with the technology themselves.

Except they are all still following in the same mold as Blues. Cossack and Wily did not come up with the technology, Light did. Light is the father of robotics who made Robots with the ability to think and feel. All others are following his designs, only they had access to them where as Cain had to obtain the technology from studying X.
he had to do it the hard way since there were no available plans or notes. And yet Light specifically created X to usher in a new era of robotics, one where Robots could think on the same level as humans and grow mentally just like humans. X was not just a defender of the peace left for the future, but a breakthrough in robotics, meant to advance Robots and their relationship with Humans. He explicitly denotes X as "The first of a new generation of robots". He fully intended someone to continue where he left off some day in the future once X had been unearthed. So Cain is really doing no different than what Cossack or Wily did. Only he obtained the technology differently.

....

What were we arguing about again? I lost track... XD

I think we will have to agree to disagree here, because neither of us is going to budge, and Im not the walking Megaman encyclopedia that Zan is- So I would just go around in circles with this shit.

plus Id like to discuss other things BESIDES mere nomenclature...

On what I mentioned before about the big 4 and copy X- ill just put this here.

The Legendary Blue Messiah" X
The legendary blue repliroid and ruler of Neo Arcadia who symbolizes "infinite potential" and a "purveyor of justice" for all.
Though he had done so for the sake of peace, he often worried over having to destroy his fellow repliroids during the long confrontations of the "Irregular Wars", a condition which went mostly unchanged even after Zero went to sleep following the Nightmare Incident.
In the closing period of the Irregular Wars (later referred to as the Elf Wars), X cooperated with Zero who had acquired a copy body, to capture the Dark Elf, and arranged to use his anti-virus countermeasure to seal her within his own body.
When he sealed the Dark Elf, the shock forced X's soul from his body and split it into 5 cyber elves.
Eventually, 4 of these souls were incorporated into the Shitennou of Neo Arcadia, while one continued to wander the earth.

on DNA...

DNA Program
Program that makes up the characteristics of a repliroid. Zero's Learning ability utilizes this, but Axl's ability to completely copy a repliroid is rare.

DNA Soul
A repliroid's operational [mobilization/movement] DNA program that has been pulled out. It appears that Berkana took the souls from the erased repliroids and inserted them for use in the bodies of Iregulars.

Erasure
The phenomenon where a repliroid's operation program disappears all the sudden. An erased repliroid loses all consciousness, reduced to being like so much scrap iron. During the Nightmare Incident, a phenomenon similar erasure happened to Isoc.

[Inccubus]

I agree, this is all really about semantics and colloquialisms.

I once had an idea for a semi-reboot of MMX where instead of simply absorbing a basic version of a Maverick's weapons, like Rock used to do with robot masters, you'd have X get an entire armor based on the Maverick's DNA that would also give additional support and mobility upgrades while using it. I think it would jive better with Axl being able to completely copy a reploid's form.

One of the ones I first envisioned was the armor you'd get from Chill Penguin. I thought it would be cool to get a version of the shotgun ice that more closely resembled his for the main weapon, and the ice breath as the charge ability. The armor itself would give you the ability to grip ice to prevent slipping, get a boost to jump height, and maybe a small defense increase. Of course the game would have to have more places with ice to make the armor more useful.

Thoughts?