Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Vampire Killer on June 23, 2010, 05:13:21 PM
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Hello all, been lurking here for quite some time and have finally decided to join in on the fun.
Anyhoo, I've been noting lately, especially on sites like gametrailers and whatnot, that for every group of pics posted or new gameplay/theatrical trailer shown for Lords of Shadow, there is a slew of idiots saying that it looks "just like" God of War.
There are many problems with this line of thinking, but I'll focus on just a few.
1). CV, the series, has been around a long damn time. Long before GoW was ever a twinkle in David Jaffe's eye, CV was there. The whip has been a staple of combat in CV in almost every game in the series. Granted, some of the best games in the series have had multiple weapon wielding protagonist, but overall the whip has reigned. This means that LoS is NOT cloning GoW, but the opposite. Once again, CV came first.
2). Seeing a the whip is the staple CV weapon, how the hell else do these morons expect a 3D CV to look and play like? Now matter what you do, any attempts to make a CV in 3D (unless you make the main character use something other than a whip as a primary weapon, in which case the haters would then complain all the more that the game doesn't look like CV) will result in whip like actions somewhat similar to GoW in appearance, due to the fact that by their very nature whips work in a swinging fashion. How else were you expecting the new whip like weapon in LoS (called the Combat Cross I think) to work? Can you even think of a way to not have this be the case? You might as well say that any game that has a gun as the characters main weapon in a clone of Doom, or some older game, since Doom had guns, and it came first.
3). The gameplay, at least from what I've seen, is not anymore a clone of GoW, than every other action game out there are clones of each other. The fact is that videogames evolve in their design over the years by copying from each other, building on the great design ideas of other titles and improving upon them. Every so often, someone will develop a gameplay design that is innovative enough to become an industry standard. Before GoW there was Devil May Cry. Before that there were 3D fighting games, and before that 2D fighting games, and so on and so forth. Yes, LoS probably has some similarities to GoW in it's gameplay, but it also has similarities to other games as well. Same goes for GoW. Whoop-de-shite! Get over it.
Lastly, some of you really need to stop complaining about the game not being a carbon copy of old school CV. Personally, I think the idea of the Combat Cross is really cool. It's like they took several of the staple CV weapons, and made them into one. And if your entire possible enjoyment of LoS weighs on whether or not something like medusa heads are included, that says much more about you, than it does about the quantifiable quality of the game itself. Learn to embrace something new, you just might be surprised. I really didn't like the idea behind Metroid Prime at first, didn't seem 'Metroid-like' enough for my tastes. After playing through it though, it ended up being one of my favorite games of that generation. When you move from 2D to 3D, certain gameplay changes and omissions are an absolute necessity. Learn to cope.
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Too fucking long and shitty; didn't read.
Also, you could have, you know, posted this in any one of the other threads discussing the game.
But thanks for your input anyway!
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Thank you internet, you never let me down. :(
If a mod wants to graft this into another thread, feel free.
I figured that some people might want to discuss a particular aspect of the game itself, namely the GoW clone complaints, in it's own thread by itself, w/out have to sift through 200+ pages.
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They wouldn't, it would be at the end, where anyone looking will see for a good while.
I agree somewhat, except the "it's the opposite" since GoW gameplay did come first. But I'mhoping its not close to being a clone cuz I would not like what I'm playing.
What I hate are teh QTE grabs I'm seeing and Dave Cox lying about it... but whatever, better to continue this in the other thread.
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Sorry for being a jackass, but hey, I guess I just don't take kindly to being called an idiot, even if indirectly, ha.
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I'll let the thread stand... but unfortunately all you've done is 'split' the argument, as just because now there's a thread about it doesn't mean that argument will not continue in the other thread.
Now it's just gonna be a double helping of it!
As for the topic, I will reserve judgment until I play the thing. I will buy the game, then I will state my thoughts on it. For the record, although I don't like God of War, I like Dante's Inferno... and I hope this is similar to that one in that there's platforming in Dante's Inferno (wallclimbing/grabbing, hook swinging, and platform jumping).
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Sorry for being a jackass, but hey, I guess I just don't take kindly to being called an idiot, even if indirectly, ha.
Hmmm, I guess I did do that didn't I? Sorry about that. The 'internet' is strong with me. Need to work on that.
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Yeah that probably wasn't the best of starts. Still, Welcome to the forums!
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They wouldn't, it would be at the end, where anyone looking will see for a good while.
I agree somewhat, except the "it's the opposite" since GoW gameplay did come first. But I'mhoping its not close to being a clone cuz I would not like what I'm playing.
What I hate are teh QTE grabs I'm seeing and Dave Cox lying about it... but whatever, better to continue this in the other thread.
Yeah, I'll admit some of the QTE looked slightly disconcerting, but it's all in how they're handled. I don't mind them at long as they're done right.
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Yeah that probably wasn't the best of starts. Still, Welcome to the forums!
Doh!!
Once again, sorry.
In other news, I love some of the mixes you've made Jorge. Cool stuff.
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If we see Gabriel ripping enemies' heads/body limbs off, spilling their guts all over him & taking giant tree trumps and hurling them, then I'll be pissed.
The scene where Gabriel is clinging onto that tree titan immediately reminded me of Kratos clinging onto Cronos in GoW3. Only difference is Kratos seems way more agile. Nonetheless is still looks fun/challenging.
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@Vampire Killer:
Thanks! When I get a better machine I'll put videos of said songs on Youtube with snazzy visuals to go along with 'em.
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2). Seeing that the whip is the staple CV weapon, how the hell else do these morons expect a 3D CV to look and play like? Now matter what you do, any attempts to make a CV in 3D (unless you make the main character use something other than a whip as a primary weapon, in which case the haters would then complain all the more that the game doesn't look like CV) will result in whip like actions somewhat similar to GoW in appearance, due to the fact that by their very nature whips work in a swinging fashion. How else were you expecting the new whip like weapon in LoS (called the Combat Cross I think) to work? Can you even think of a way to not have this be the case? You might as well say that any game that has a gun as the characters main weapon in a clone of Doom, or some older game, since Doom had guns, and it came first.
For the sake of devil's advocate, I'll just repost/remix what I said in another thread:
Theoretically, you could have more of a realistic, physics-based whip with recoil, more along the lines of LoI and CV64. Gabe's is more like a flying razor-blade/streamer, or the weapon from the 2009 movie, Ninja Assassin. However, Dave Cox said they want the action to be snappy and Street Fighter-esque, so basically this was the right choice to get that goal done.
The reason there is this cadre of fan resistance, I think, is because traditionally speaking, Castlevania's combat has been more about placement and limited power versus speed and super-power combos. (It's about feeling the hits, too). Gabe is essentially whirling that thing around like a runaway yo-yo. It's definitely kind of cool, but kind of out of control (you see villagers getting hit by his wide, lightning-fast swings and nothing happening to them). In a perfect world, the Castlevania franchise doesn't need the over-the-top combat of GoW/Ninja Gaiden/etc. Who decided that was a must-have action standard? The reason that combat came about was because designers placed people in a room with a gazillion enemies like the old Smash TV game. 3D Combat can be unique without a growing list of pre-set combos where enemies get smacked twenty-plus times. The combat's depth, if true to Castlevania's spirit, should come primarily from level design. (But then that would go against the popular, mainstream grain).
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For the sake of devil's advocate, I'll just repost/remix what I said in another thread:
Theoretically, you could have more of a realistic, physics-based whip with recoil, more along the lines of LoI and CV64. Gabe's is more like a flying razor-blade/streamer, or the weapon from the 2009 movie, Ninja Assassin. However, Dave Cox said they want the action to be snappy and Street Fighter-esque, so basically this was the right choice to get that goal done.
The reason there is this cadre of fan resistance, I think, is because traditionally speaking, Castlevania's combat has been more about placement and limited power versus speed and super-power combos. (It's about feeling the hits, too). Gabe is essentially whirling that thing around like a runaway yo-yo. It's definitely kind of cool, but kind of out of control (you see villagers getting hit by his wide, lightning-fast swings and nothing happening to them). In a perfect world, the Castlevania franchise doesn't need the over-the-top combat of GoW/Ninja Gaiden/etc. Who decided that was a must-have action standard? The reason that combat came about was because designers placed people in a room with a gazillion enemies like the old Smash TV game. 3D Combat can be unique without a growing list of pre-set combos where enemies get smacked twenty-plus times. The combat's depth, if true to Castlevania's spirit, should come primarily from level design. (But then that would go against the popular, mainstream grain).
Hmmm, I don't know. DMC and Ninja Gaiden are both games that I love, and each requires situational understanding of the combat at hand for the player to be able to play well (especially Ninja Gaiden, as even the lesser enemies can whoop your ass if you're just button mashing). The same could be said of GoW. Just because there are 20+ enemies on screen, doesn't mean the action doesn't require precision timing. Sans proper timing of your moves, you most certainly will "feel the hits".
Honestly, a CV in 3D, that had the exact same enemy layout as some of the old school CV's, would probably feel barren.
And personally, I think the modern idea of combat in action games came about because it's awesome. I like awesome.
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Best to wait for the game to come out then judge. All this talk about it not looking Castlevania enough or plays like GoW is just talk until we all get a chance at the game. I think it will be great. I loved the classics and the IGA games plus I am a huge fan the DS trilogy that people like to dump on, but it's time for something new for the series. Us fans should support this game since this could be Castlevania's last big shot for a while since IGS seems burned out. Let's all hope.
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Anyhoo, I've been noting lately, especially on sites like gametrailers and whatnot, that for every group of pics posted or new gameplay/theatrical trailer shown for Lords of Shadow, there is a slew of idiots saying that it looks "just like" God of War.
The God of War comparisons are unfortunate but not entirely unfair based on what we've seen thus far. As 'Ham says though, we haven't seen or played the full game yet though and can't really judge it based on one, two gameplay sections.
Lords' looks like it'll be changing up the gameplay quite often and that may placate fans. I've got my fingers crossed for the best, but it's hard to envisage sections where you'll be jumping over terrain and pits while whipping enemies (a series hallmark, essentially). The gameplay looks heavily compartmentalised, a sentiment backed by Dave Cox with his "I want the gamer to have five minutes of combat, followed by five minutes of puzzle-solving, followed by five minutes of platforming" comment.
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Accoring to Dave Cox, this game will compete more with games like Prince of Persia than God of War... I can't believe how people are judging this game by those tutorial gameplay videos. There will be puzzles and exploring and platforming in addition to the GoW style combat (and GoW was inspired by Castlevania all along, so without CV there wouldn't even be "GoW style combat".) :D
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LOS can easily be called God of War: Lords of shadow and the main character is Gabriel Kratos. He fights huge giants. Fail. I did play GOW and this game looks very similar. Anyway, I am not fan of 3D so I am not interested in this game. Castlevania I love is 2D. Castlevania IS 2D. Ahh..
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LOS can easily be called God of War: Lords of shadow and the main character is Gabriel Kratos. He fights huge giants. Fail. I did play GOW and this game looks very similar. Anyway, I am not fan of 3D so I am not interested in this game. Castlevania I love is 2D. Castlevania IS 2D. Ahh..
wow........ i don't even know what to say.
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I am excited for LoS, I think it looks interesting and fun, and if it does in fact play much like God of War, that's fine, I won't mind as long as there is the puzzles and exploration that Cox keeps promising. My only problem so far, is that it hasn't shown anything from previous games (and don't say Cornell or Carmilla and Laura, cause they just have the same names. they aren't the same characters.) and I know some people say thats good or that it doesn't matter, but it does, because it wouldn't be Castlevania without the enemies, and locations, and various other things that make it Castlevania. You can't take Goombas and pipes and all the other things that make up a Mario title out of the game and expect it to be as great as the others. I'm sure most of the Castlevania elements will be in the game, I'm sure they will be, but after that last trailer not showing any of them I was very disappointed. If they didn't say the name "Belmont" in the trailers it would be hard to tell its a Castlevania game if you aren't a huge fan like we all are here.
So, while I am looking forward to it, I still have my doubts until we either see some more trailers or until the game comes out.
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Castlevania I love is 2D. Castlevania IS 2D. Ahh..
In that case you should probaly go back to 1992 where you belong. Lords of Shadow IS what Castlevania looks like in the year 2010, whether you like or not. Also, totally ignoring 3D gaming doesn't make you much of a gamer anyway. It's like people who claim they have good taste in music, yet they ignore everything that has happened since Elvis 'effin Prestley.
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If they didn't say the name "Belmont" in the trailers it would be hard to tell its a Castlevania game if you aren't a huge fan like we all are here.
I don't really agree with that. It has castles, vampires, werewolves, armored guys with holy whips, some old grumpy vampire sitting alone on a throne.....Sounds like Castlevania to me. Plus these are trailers, you know the game will much more than the trailers are showing us. Only way you going to make it look exactly like Castlevania in 3D if you make a 3D Dot Game Hero version.
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LOS can easily be called God of War: Lords of shadow and the main character is Gabriel Kratos. He fights huge giants. Fail. I did play GOW and this game looks very similar. Anyway, I am not fan of 3D so I am not interested in this game. Castlevania I love is 2D. Castlevania IS 2D. Ahh..
(http://www.vandal.net/media/3700/200548114948_4.jpg)
A collegre jap prettyboy fighting huge giants.Fail? no, very Castlevania cuz 2d, right? my god...
There are already 4 castlevanias 3d and one 2,5d by the way, lords of shdows is not the fist attemp...
In that case you should probaly go back to 1992 where you belong. Lords of Shadow IS what Castlevania looks like in the year 2010, whether you like or not. Also, totally ignoring 3D gaming doesn't make you much of a gamer anyway. It's like people who claim they have good taste in music, yet they ignore everything that has happened since Elvis 'effin Prestley.
Most of people that claims god of war god of war, and dont see any character as "castlevania characters" if theyre not anime or androgins i think they even wasnt a feto in 1992, they didnt played as original barbarian simon and they know nothing about era before iga, and defends what they know and what they like, but is like ps3 xbox360 fanboys war, what is the problem if you can have both systems and play both...
By the way i liked and played all 2d titles even with anime guys and i like anime and love kojima art designs, so i dont hate iga or metroidvanias ecc... i just dont know why people is so "closed" to innovation or other styles like 3d, if LOS works, we will probably have more 3d titles and 2d titles coming for 3ds or Arcade that means more castlevania...
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The more time I've given myself to turn over all of this, the better I feel about it.
Yes, the combat in Lords of Shadow, from what little we've seen, is very similar to God of War. We'll have to see once it comes out if it 'feels' like God of War, but it definitely looks just like it. It has quick time events (QTEs), 'box' room configurations, and the weapon mechanics are button-mashing hack n' slash. There, that's said.
Moving on, what's so bad about that? God of War is insanely popular because it has honed the 3D action scheme to relative perfection. If it isn't broke, as the axiom goes, don't bother attempting to fix it. I find it likely the developers tested and tried--as is the process, I gather, with the development of any given game--differing styles, controls, and aesthetics, and came to the conclusion the God of War style is the most preferable configuration. True originality in game design, just like true originality in movies, books or any other form of creative entertainment, is extremely rare. I can't help but think half of the stink over all of this is ironically due to a certain number of fanatical cheerleaders on these boards and elsewhere prematurely proclaiming the game a revolution in not just the franchise but in gaming on the whole. The inevitable drawback to hyping something up so damn much is that, if it doesn't meet expectations, people will be twice as critical as they would have been if it hadn't been hyped so excessively in the first place if it doesn't live up.
I'll be buying the game when it comes out. So, quite likely will nearly everyone on this board. That doesn't make criticism of the game moot, nor does it justify the gushing praise some are willing to devote no matter the worth of it.
Final note, the meme that God of War actually ripped off Lords of Shadow is sophistry at its worst. God of War, which came after years of Castlevania games in the video game canon, utilizes similar aesthetic and thematic elements as the Castlevania franchise. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, which comes out nearly five years after God of War was released for the Playstation 2, utilizes similar gameplay mechanics as God of War. This in no way equates to God of War ripping off Lords of Shadow. We're discussing two different things, God of War utilizing similar imagery, themes, and weapons, and Lords of Shadow utilizing similar control mechanics and layouts.
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Technically, it's not a whip now. It's a chain attached to a cross. I wish using it would make a cracking or snapping sound and it would feel more like using a CV whip.The soundless chains makes hitting stuff feel less ballsy.
Those slow motions that happen when you hit something are pretty GoWish.
But yeah, good points. There have been huge enemies in CV before. Pazuzu, Galamoth etc.
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Final note, the meme that God of War actually ripped off Lords of Shadow is sophistry at its worst. God of War, which came after years of Castlevania games in the video game canon, utilizes similar aesthetic and thematic elements as the Castlevania franchise. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, which comes out nearly five years after God of War was released for the Playstation 2, utilizes similar gameplay mechanics as God of War. This in no way equates to God of War ripping off Lords of Shadow. We're discussing two different things, God of War utilizing similar imagery, themes, and weapons, and Lords of Shadow utilizing similar control mechanics and layouts.
I don't think anyone is saying that GoW ripped off LoS (which is a temporal impossibility).
My main point was simply that CV has had the whip as its staple weapon for a LONG damn time, and thus LoS whip movements are not technically copying or cloning from GoW (inspired perhaps). It's a whip, there are only so many ways it can be portrayed in a 3D environment.
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can we just buy and play the game already!!!!!!!!
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I wish ppl would stop saying LoS has QTEs.
Where the hell was there a real QTE in the game play videos?
All I saw was QTE-like moments that were obviously for tutorial purposes.
A QTE as defined in GoW game play is when you have a second or less to input a specific button that has no direct relation to what that button normally does in standard combat. Not to mention that they are required to advance NOT OPTIONAL.
In LoS I say very clearly that the supposed QTEs can then be performed at will or are optional in boss fights.
The only thing that really resembled a real QTE was the finishing move that can be done to the wargs in the chase scene, and I'm willing to bet that after the wargs flash they can still be killed with normal attacks.
LOS DOESN'T HAVE QTE ANYTHING!!!
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A QTE does not have to be a requirement, to be a QTE. Where in hell's name did you get that idea from?
A quick time event is just an event that at one point requires you to press a button at the game selected time to do such event. Do you remember... I think Minotaurs? from GoW? When you go into a sequence of QTEs where you have to hit a button to hit them, then jump on them and then mash the hell out of your controller to kill them? You don't have to activate that QTE if you didn't want to... it is however, still a QTE.
What I don't think is a QTE is Ninja Gaiden 2's Obliteration technique. It is just a single button pressed when an enemy has a lost limb. It has no timely requirement, and is completed without such.
Though I don't really call it a QTE myself, Darksider's finishers are a QTE because you knock them down, and then they have a time limit until they get back up and you can no longer do a finisher.
So yea, LoS does have qtes.
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A QTE does not have to be a requirement, to be a QTE. Where in hell's name did you get that idea from?
A quick time event is just an event that at one point requires you to press a button at the game selected time to do such event. Do you remember... I think Minotaurs? from GoW? When you go into a sequence of QTEs where you have to hit a button to hit them, then jump on them and then mash the hell out of your controller to kill them? You don't have to activate that QTE if you didn't want to... it is however, still a QTE.
What I don't think is a QTE is Ninja Gaiden 2's Obliteration technique. It is just a single button pressed when an enemy has a lost limb. It has no timely requirement, and is completed without such.
Though I don't really call it a QTE myself, Darksider's finishers are a QTE because you knock them down, and then they have a time limit until they get back up and you can no longer do a finisher.
So yea, LoS does have qtes.
Meh, as long as they're handled well, I don't really care.
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From what I've seen, it doesn't look that well. It really disrupts the combat... you're kicking ass, and then you grab....... but you don't act on it. You just grab and wait for the circle to be at the right spot to move. I don't think it's handled well. just my opinion....
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Holy shit guys! Did you play the new Transformers game that just came out?! It has Killstreaks! What a blatant Modern Warfare 2 clone lol!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D
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Holy shit guys! Did you play the new Transformers game that just came out?! It has Killstreaks! What a blatant Modern Warfare 2 clone lol!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D
No...... it's an unreal tournament ripoff. Don't you people remember... M M M MONSTER KILL!
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It's like I once said, has a Gow-fanboys who are extremely annoying. They think everything is a copy of GoW. If you play Gears of War, War is because it has been copied in Gow. Darksiders If you play, the character War, was inspired by GoW. If you play The Legend of Beowulf, the bravery and the fury of Beowulf, was "inspired" in Kratos. Fuck you fanboys!
As some here have said, if someone copied something, it was first GoW. The gameplay of Castlevania is now only updated, and why not? Genre games today are similar with gameplay that started with Devil May Cry (U__U before GoW), and then had GoW, Onimusha, Shadow of Colossus, Heavenly Sword, Darksiders, Bayonetta and others ... And out on the PS1 that had so few games, like Ninja Shadow of Darkness and so on. Then his Gow-fanboy shit, stop talking nonsense! LOS is not a copy, but your beloved Gow.
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It's not a God of War clone unless your character is banging a chick offscreen.
If anything this game will be better than God of War 3.
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But God of War III had Kevin Sorbo.
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Sir Patrick Stewart>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kevin Sorbo, and this coming from someone who loved the Hercules tv series.
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Didn't Hercules bang Xena?
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As far as I know.. no...
Wait Kevin Sorbo was in GoW3?
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Yep
*SPOILER!*
As the voice of Hercules
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LMAO, That's EFFIN AWESOME!
Wow, I might actually take a look at GoW3 with that news.
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No...... it's an unreal tournament ripoff. Don't you people remember... M M M MONSTER KILL!
got the game and enjoy it. it might just be the first 3D game I've ever played to completion that wasn't a Castlevania game. guess i have to "really care" about the characters and universe in a game to actually see it through to the end. all hail Megatron!
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Just played the game too and is all good. Unfortunatly Megatron's voice isn't the original and they didn't bother to digitize Starscream's either. Soundwave's voice on the other hand is just downright awesome! They kept it!!
"AS YOU COMMAND MEGATRON"
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yeah its a good game. I havent played the multiplayer but Im bout halfway thru the Decepticon side of single player. I wish someone would make a G1 game tho... man thatd kick so much ass
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Technicly this game does take place in the G1 timeline right before they leave cybertron in the two-part pilot episode. You'll find out more as you progress through to the autobots gameplay
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yeah I know but I mean in the G1 TIME like set in the 80s after theyre on earth with all the old style vehicles and everythin. 80s soundtrack 80s style npcs the whole lot but do it up right and big budget as a whole new game
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Meh, as long as they're handled well, I don't really care.
There's no such thing >.>
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Shenmue!
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Sadly I have no played much shenmue... I am ashamed...
But from the games I have had played with QTEs... I was wondering if Shenmue is better in retrospect rather than just being better.