Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: e105beta on November 19, 2010, 12:46:11 PM
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But not that much. It is perfect after all.
Alright, so I just beat Symphony of the Night AGAIN. To nobody's surprise it was fun to play once again, and obviously I enjoyed it, but there were a few key things that REALLY bugged me about the game as I was playing it. Maybe I'm just picky, I don't know, but I'm hoping I can actually get some discussion on this in a thread where it's not being compared to another game and doesn't need to be defended to the death. To that end, I'm going to ram this one down.
YES, I AM JOURNEYING TO THE DEPTHS OF HELL TO ACKNOWLEDGE FLAWS IN CASTLEVANIA SYMPHONY OF THE NIGHT!
And yes, it's going to be a rant.
First Off, the Voices.
Maybe I don't appreciate the camp, or maybe I'm just not traditional enough, but my goodness, the voices. Richter's voice was so cheesy and corny I wanted to eat it, Maria sounds 13 years too old and doesn't hold a shred of emotion, Death sounds way too "conniving henchmen" and not enough "Death", Succubus was just bad, and beyond the funny appeal of "What is a man?!" Dracula voice was disappointing. It sounded like he was a nasty old man with a cold. Not the voice of a command lord of darkness. Shaft's voice was actually decent, and I think they probably should have switched Death's voice with Shaft's.
Alucard's voice was alright. Not the best voice acting by any means, but I enjoyed the "I am super old, but young, yet powerful, so I have a deep commanding voice". I personally prefer the direction they went with his voice in the PSP version, though I can see why someone would like the original better. Can't beat his "DARK METAMORPHOSIS!".
It's not like they were game breakingly bad, but they made me cringe. I liked the PSP voices/lines much better (not that either are the pinnacle of amazing voice acting) and I know people disagree with me on this, so beyond nostalgia factor or camp value, what makes the original voices so much better? I don't see much.
Second, the Difficulty.
This one almost killed the game for me at times. After running through a bunch of the older Castlevania's, no amount of excellent music and art direction, both of which Symphony of the night has in spades, could disguise the fact that this game is just WAY too easy. Almost to the point where it starts becoming boring.
"But beta, Crissaegrim is a really rare drop, and most people wouldn't get it on their first run-through. Try using a weapon most people would be using."
Woah, woah, woah, slow down there partner. Who said anything about Crissaegrim? No, Crissaegrim comes in near the very end of the game, and besides, this game is easy without even touching Crissaegrim. I broke this game with a Flamberge. Yup, just like any random slob who would be playing this game, I broke through a wall in the Clocktower, ran into a room with a cool looking armor enemy and thought "Dude, he must drop a cool sword!" Thus, I killed him until he dropped the Flamberge. From there, it was just a series of obnoxiously powerful weapons powering through a bunch of cool but ultimately super easy bosses, culminating in a seven hit Shaft kill and a mildly amusing Dracula fight.
In a series full of spectacular and sometimes hair-pulling hard boss fights, Symphony of the Night falls completely flat. When I run into a room with a half-octopus, half-cerberus, half-snake, half-woman Greek abomination spewing evil blue skulls at me, I get slightly amped up for a fast and furious boss fight. Well I was a bit low on health, so I tried to pull off a soul steal, but after trying and failing multiple times, I simply killed Scylla in a couple of sword swipes. Wow, who even needed the soul steal? I mean, by the time I reached Death, I was so powerful God should have just declared me the Grim Reaper. Talk about a terrible battle. I think the only thing that ever bothered me where the crows, and that was only until everything started to deal 1 damage to me.
Am I the only one who has encountered this? Am I too good for Symphony of the Night? I hardly believe that's the case. It seems like the only way to get any challenge out of this game is to not play it the way it was meant to be played.
Finally, the Inverted Castle.
Wow, what a great idea! The real Castle was only the first half of the game! Dracula really lies in another copy of the Castle vertically reflected to the one you're currently in!
Well, it's a great idea in theory.
For me, this was my least favorite part of the game. It took me five run-throughs, but I finally realized why the Inverted Castle always irked me. It's IGA, a man with the ability to do things right when he actually tries, at his worst. It's recycling. In fact, it's even worse than recycling.
They took the entire Castle from before, sucked all the life out of it, then said "Hey, if we flip it over, it's like new levels, right?"
Wrong.
One, most of the castle is completely irrelevant. Being the completionist that I am, I made sure to explore everywhere and get all the relics and what not, but unless one feels like doing that, it's definitely possible to run to the center of the castle and take out Dracula with minimal effort. Most of the weapons you'll find lying around are completely useless after all. Well, save for the Alucard Sword that is.
Two, the beautiful room to room atmospheres of the first Castle are gone. The Inverted Castle is just one big slightly dark red and dark blue tinged mess of a few replayed songs. Books no longer come out of the shelves in the library, merman no longer jump out of the water, and all the little switches and what not are already done for you. The rooms are simply filled with slight variations of enemies you fought in the in first Castle, including a few minor bosses, and flipped upside down. To be honest, I don't even really like running through upside down rooms. It looks tacky.
Nothing feels new, and it's a pale shadow of the first Castle. Intentional? Maybe. It might be an example of how Shaft isn't as creative as Dracula, but considering how the Reverse Catacombs were actually redone for the Inverted Castle, I'm going to guess lazy.
Three, well, going along with the difficulty, you're so brokenly powerful by the time you get here, it's a breeze, the only challenge being Galamoth, who only gives out a life drop on defeat.
IN CONCLUSION
It may sound like I hate this game, but that's not true at all. I love this game. Castlevania could use a Symphony of the Night 2, albeit with a couple fixes here and there.
It seems, though, that the more I play it, the worse it gets, and yet everyone else seems oblivious to it. It's an excellent game, yes, but it needs improvements. It's not perfect. There are plenty of things Castlevanias with far less legacy hype did better. Dawn of Sorrow, a game that I've noticed gets fairly reamed by fans, had a much better weapon and ability system. Portrait of Ruin, a game that gets reamed even more, had a much more balanced end game. Despite the obvious copy paste with the end paintings, the bosses were far more entertaining and I was still earning equipment that hadn't been outdated 3 areas ago. The partner system was also a nice addition.
I've never been good with ending rants, so yeah, I think Symphony of the Night needs to be acknowledge for what it is: An excellent game, and a great title that added a bit of freshness to a long string of Classicvanias, but not this heavenly being that puts all other Castlevania games to shame.
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I think for the voices, I prefer the old ones because it had the camp factor. The PSP one had little redeeming value, they were just bad with nothing to back it up. The dialogue was just rephrased. The voice acting itself didn't improve at all and was still awkward, and yeah. The only thing the PSP version would have over it is production value so there wasn't that terrible echo. It was just soulless with nothing of interest. I'd prefer bad quirkiness over just bad banality.
As for the difficulty, I didn't really find it to be that much of an issue because of how well-designed the levels were. It wasn't hard, but it didn't need to. It was an exploration title first and foremost and difficulty acts against the will of exploration. I appreciate how much it awarded exploration, albeit already being easy that kinda made it overkill. It's perhaps too rewarding.
Also, yeah, the Inverted Castle was pretty bloated. It did some neat twists in the level design. I liked the Clock Tower. Everywhere else fell pretty flat which is a shame because there were some interesting enemies, they just needed tweaks to the level design they inhabited to be fully fleshed out. Besides that, it DID give a still unprecedented shift in the way Alucard traveled. Alucard was pretty much forced to use all his abilities at all times to traverse the castle. Could've used more interactivity nevertheless. If anything, the should have ramped up the exploration aspect there and build on the potential of this oddly constructed beast.
I didn't really think Portrait of Ruin had a better balanced ending because the new portraits were really just slightly altered designs. With the Inverted Castle, things were really shifted even if it was just flipped. The Portrait paintings were inferior rehashes of their originals most of the times. Plus, I felt the abilities bloated. You got Charlotte's owl and then a half of a hour later you got Jonathan's super jump that made the owl transformation useless.
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This is like complaining that Super Mario Bros 1 didn't have the advancements and changes that 3 had. It was the first of it's kind. Of course there are going to be lesser refined systems and the like.
The inverted castle was pretty cool, new, and innovative at it's time as well. No game ever flipped the whole damn map upside-down before.
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This is like complaining that Super Mario Bros 1 didn't have the advancements and changes that 3 had. It was the first of it's kind. Of course there are going to be lesser refined systems and the like.
The inverted castle was pretty cool, new, and innovative at it's time as well. No game ever flipped the whole damn map upside-down before.
this is so true ^^^
in my opinion e105beta you where just LOOKING for all the flaws in the game instead of just outright enjoying the game itself.
whether you enjoyed the game or not its obvious that you have some sort of resentment towards the attention and fanbase CVSOTN has accumlated over its time and felt the need to post the topic in spite of that. "judgeing by the "Perfect" game statement"
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Whoever said Symphony of the Night was the "Perfect" game? I thought everyone already knew it had flaws...
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IGA:
"I don't play SOTN, it has too many bugs"
IGA:
"SOTN was perfect"
'nuff said.
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SOTN it is not the kind of game I want to play over and over again, like Super Mario Bros 3. The game is great but not perfect, that's for sure.
I think the only problem of this title is the lack of difficulty... yes, the voices and all the other stuff don't bother me. The only "real" problem is the difficulty: but it is a BIG one. When I first played it I don't have any intention to "look for all the flaws". But I don't find it enough challenging. Actually, the last stages were a little boring for me.
I never liked much the Metroid style. But, in fact, when an idea is well done it really don't matter if you don't liked at first. In this case, the idea is well done but it lacks of a better level design and more tough enemies. I think everyone will agree that Alucard's great adventure was the first game using the "RPG MAZE" formula... and THE BEST of them all. It was downhill since Symphony of the night.
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I thought the inverted castle was due to time constraints, but I may be wrong. Play SotN for what it is (pretty) and if you want a challenge go play Super Metroid (also pretty) lol
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SOTN is one of the best games of that decade. No wonder is still lingers in people's, media's and even non-gamers mind after 13 years. Sure it's major problem is the unbalanced difficulty/challenge, as things are very easy to deal with. With so many resources and the broken level up system Alucard was just way overpowered. Other than that it's a game that's just a blast to play, I can beat 100.3% each castle in 90mins, it's just so fun to play and breeze trough. Whenever I replay it I always do different things and I ALWAYS find a new weapon/item I haven't seen before or that I don't remember, and I'm pretty sure I've played that game more than 10 times by now.
I'm ever so curious about Esco's project, Crazy Mode SOTN? =)
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The game is great, but I always thought that the inverted castle was lack luster. Besides, it's as Alucard says in the game: "this castle is a creature of chaos...". Then again, considering that there were likely time constraints, it's not surprising. I mean consider the one panel in the entrance that leads to the underground gardens in NitM. I heard that was not finished because of time constraints. Then again, from what I've seen in youtube videos, that area was lack luster as well.
What I would like to see is a true remake. Not a remastering like they did for psp. I mean a true remake with a new map, and a second castle that isn't a inverted version of the first. No more walking on the ceiling. The outside could look up side down, but the inside should be right side up and the bosses should be challenging. Also, there shouldn't be weapons like the crissargrim that turn the second castle into a cake walk. And, Death should be the hardest boss next to Dracula. This is just my opinion though.
Any short comings can be attributed to budget constraints, time constraints, and the fact that it's the first cv of its kind.
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I didn't like the inverted Castle part I'd rather them have done something new. An entire new area. I also didn't like the fact that you couldn't use items from the menu. You had to equip them in your off hand and then use them as far as I know. Also some parts of the game were just hard to figure out. Where to go next what to do. Nothing like Simons Quest though. It was still amazing for its time and still my absolute favorite of all the Castlevania games but of course like all other games it had its flaws.
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e105beta...
That is an absolutely fantastic, honest, and truthful review of SotN. One of the best I've ever read. While I do love SotN, and have since the day it was released, I cannot disagree with ANYTHING you wrote. Very well stated.
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But not that much. It is perfect after all.
Alright, so I just beat Symphony of the Night AGAIN.
Stopped reading here, was expecting Super Castlevania IV. :(
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Stopped reading here, was expecting Super Castlevania IV. :(
Bro highfive *clap*.
No but seriously, I agree with most of what the OP stated.
The biggest flaw to me is the difficulty (I didn't mind the voices at all since the story was terrible anyways). The game started incredibly good and then in a matter of 45 minutes you're taking 1 damage from 75% of the mobs of the castle. And you got like 300 hp before entering the inverted castle. You can fundamentally explore ignoring mobs.
In fact, I think SotN is, in terms of design, one of the worst CV games. What really makes it a stellar experience is how well it controls. It's one of those near-perfect 2D experiences. Alucard's stroll, the responsiveness of the controls, the jumping mechanics... it's a game that feels a bit "meh" when I think about it, but once you take the controller in hand, it's just so smooth.
That's why we need more console CV games. A pad >>>>>>>>>> handheld controls. Big screen >>>>>>>>> small screen, in terms of control precision design, etc.
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I don't think anybody was saying SotN is perfect. The voices have always been criticized (though I feel the writing is the real problem), and it's always been known as a ridiculously easy game. The inverted castle doesn't get as much flak as the other two points, but beta is right; it's lousy compared to the first castle. I wish the inverted castle had more of the Metroidvania formula, where you have to explore to find an item that lets you access a new area that holds an item that lets you access a new area, etc. I wish each area had its own music, because hearing the same one throughout 70% of the inverted castle gets really old, especially on replays.
So yeah, beta's post is totally correct except in the assumption that people think SotN doesn't have those flaws.
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Well I'm actually glad I made this post, because I had gotten the impression people DIDN'T see these things in the game. Most every time the game gets brought up in comparison to any other Castlevania game, Symphony of the Night is held up as the high standard in every aspect. I just wanted to get a REAL bearing on where the Castlevania fanbase stands.
this is so true ^^^
in my opinion e105beta you where just LOOKING for all the flaws in the game instead of just outright enjoying the game itself.
whether you enjoyed the game or not its obvious that you have some sort of resentment towards the attention and fanbase CVSOTN has accumlated over its time and felt the need to post the topic in spite of that. "judgeing by the "Perfect" game statement"
Perhaps I did make this post out of resentment, but what's wrong with that? It's simply a post. I resent the fact that this game is heralded as the pinnacle of Castlevania while I'm enjoying the game less and less than everybody else is as I continue to play more Castlevanias. I mean, when a game gets so much hype, you always get those urges to go back and play it again, and when the game falls a bit flat, you want to inform people, "HEY, THERE'S BETTER CASTLEVANIAS"
Also, I wasn't looking for flaws. I got up from the Dracula fight feeling all three of the points I brought up in my first post. I don't have the drive to play through a game LOOKING for the bad. They just accumulate as you play. The abrasive nature of my first post was to get reactions. If I was soft on the game, I highly doubt I'd be getting the discussion I was looking for.
What I would like to see is a true remake. Not a remastering like they did for psp. I mean a true remake with a new map, and a second castle that isn't a inverted version of the first. No more walking on the ceiling. The outside could look up side down, but the inside should be right side up and the bosses should be challenging. Also, there shouldn't be weapons like the crissargrim that turn the second castle into a cake walk. And, Death should be the hardest boss next to Dracula. This is just my opinion though.
Agreed completely. Symphony of the Night could definitely use a "kiss of life".
Something like a SotN Redux
I didn't really think Portrait of Ruin had a better balanced ending because the new portraits were really just slightly altered designs. With the Inverted Castle, things were really shifted even if it was just flipped. The Portrait paintings were inferior rehashes of their originals most of the times. Plus, I felt the abilities bloated. You got Charlotte's owl and then a half of a hour later you got Jonathan's super jump that made the owl transformation useless.
In terms of copy pasting, PoR was as bad as SotN endgame. What I meant was that, in SotN, I'm exploring places I've already explored with enemies and bosses I can kill in a few fell swoops. In PoR, while, yes, everything is copy pasted, the enemies and bosses are still a bit difficult. While the abilities may be coming in a bit fast, it's better than SotN where you're picking up weapons that would have been considered weak areas ago.
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Whoops, quote instead of modify >.>
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IDK, I've always had the dream of a 3D SOTN... call me a crazy, but I bet we'll see it, somehow, someday...
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IDK, I've always had the dream of a 3D SOTN... call me a crazy, but I bet we'll see it, somehow, someday...
me aswell lol
if IGA can fix some of the "flaws" in the original Symphony and somehow remake it into a 3D game while retaining what made Symphony of the Night relevent in the first place then i would be really thrilled by the idea ;D
however
i have my doubts that IGA can pull it off. :(
i think a 2.5D Castlevania Symphony of the Night sequel would be a much better idea in my opinion
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i have my doubts that IGA can pull it off
Of course no! He didn't make the original symphony, I wouldn't let him touch a remake/reimagining, less even judging by his lastest works.
Give it to an external dedicated developer and we have a winner (Think a colaboration between Ubisoft/Konami, it's happening in the Metal Gear field, why not give japo-CV to an external EXPERIENCED team, Ubisft Montreal = Priceless Team for action/adventures)
SOTN wasn't perfect but it's a hell of a game, I played it last year after some 5-6 years and it blowed my mind again, however 85% of that love is pure nostalgia and that nostalgia has harmed the series for about 13 years. It's nice, but it's time to let it go and don't call it "The measure of every Castlevania to be released", it's not, and how many people have said it through the years, the game is little less than a (masterfully done) Super Metroid rip-off, it didn't let Castlevania to follow it's own course, to create it's formula through polishing it new tech gen by gen.. this game didn't redeem the saga in a gameplay perspective, in my opinion, it doomed it.
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Ugh, no thanks.
While the idea may seem good on paper, there's a 98% probability that Konami or whoever they choose to outsource it to would make it inferior to the original. It's basically lightning in a bottle, so to speak.
The 3D SotN pseudo-sequel woulda turned out even worse. why do you think Konami didn't greenlight it?
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While the idea may seem good on paper, there's a 98% probability that Konami or whoever they choose to outsource it to would make it inferior to the original. It's basically lightning in a bottle, so to speak.
It depends of the team, think a THEORETHICAL colaboration between Konamy/Naughty Dog .... think they will make a bad Castlevania? Not in a million years, they could make it better even; however we know it's not going to happen until Castlevania gets out from Konami... that sounds harsh but it's true, Konami is fairly incompetent, think about it, it's well rumored that KojiPro is wanting to get independent, and KojiPro recently worked with CV, if KojiPro somehow acquired the CV brand and they get independent then bought by Take two or Sony or Microsoft or whoever, CV would be in far better hands.
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Ugh, no thanks.
While the idea may seem good on paper, there's a 98% probability that Konami or whoever they choose to outsource it to would make it inferior to the original. It's basically lightning in a bottle, so to speak.
The 3D SotN pseudo-sequel woulda turned out even worse. why do you think Konami didn't greenlight it?
i was under the impression that they chose the European game "LOS" over the Japan title "the "posible" symphony sequel".
it doesn't necessarily mean that the game would have been a complete flop like your trying to indicate it just means they were more interested in LOS.
what would lead you to believe or indicate that Konami can't outright make a 3d Symphony of the night?
Ahasverus has the right idea about choosing someone else to develop it so i don't see how you can just write it off as a automatic failure.
and as a said a 2.5d CVSOTN could be just what they need since as shown by DXC they really can pull off the CV feel even in 2.5d
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what would lead you to believe or indicate that Konami can't outright make a 3d Symphony of the night?
Oh they could make it, it just wouldn't have turned out as good as LoS;
My thoughts? A high-res Curse of Darkness with an added gimmick, while Alucard's 3D model being lifted from Judgment only with his sotn costume. I know that's how they would've done it. But when did I ever say it would be an automatic failure? It just wouldn't have been as incredible as you may see it in your mind.
And I don't want a 2.5D SotN. They would be better off making a new game instead of re-releasing Symphony again just because. As I said, despite it's flaws, the original is lightning in a bottle. They tried "updating" it already with DXC. I don't want another one.
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Oh they could make it, it just wouldn't have turned out as good as LoS;
ok
how can you be so sure that it will not turn out as good as LOS?
you guys seem to love to bring of CVCOD and CVJ despite the fact that i'm sure Konami aren't stupid and have learned from those games.
don't you think that saying it will not be as good as LOS because of those 2 games is jumping the gun just a bit?
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Seems they have little faith in development teams.
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I remember that TGS 2008 trailer that they showed. That is what I was expecting was going to be the next Castlevania game. I was so excited for it. I think it would have turned out great. Koji has had plenty of time to learn from his mistakes in past games. Maybe someday the game will come out. Would be great if it did.
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I remember that TGS 2008 trailer that they showed. That is what I was expecting was going to be the next Castlevania game. I was so excited for it. I think it would have turned out great.
Are you talking about that uninspired trailer with the 1999 CGI graphics (Really vomitive) cliched story, our favourite pussy after a hangover (Alucard, seriously, he looked uuugly) and the worst modeled hair I've seen in a respectable game? No thanks.
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That last post was seething with anti-fanboy bile. It's not becoming of you, man.
It wasn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Having said that, the fact remains that the trailer was too short to base anything out of. There was no gameplay shown, from what I recall. It was just a short little blurb.... can anyone link to it or something?
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ok
how can you be so sure that it will not turn out as good as LOS?
you guys seem to love to bring of CVCOD and CVJ despite the fact that i'm sure Konami aren't stupid and have learned from those games.
don't you think that saying it will not be as good as LOS because of those 2 games is jumping the gun just a bit?
It's just how I feel, dude.
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That last post was seething with anti-fanboy bile. It's not becoming of you, man.
It wasn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Having said that, the fact remains that the trailer was too short to base anything out of. There was no gameplay shown, from what I recall. It was just a short little blurb.... can anyone link to it or something?
i completely agree dude ^^^
seems alot of guys around here like to type those kind of hate posts towards IGA's Alucard character so i tend to avoid replying and voiceing my opinion inorder to avoid a flame war since i AM a proud Alucard fan ;D
and here is a link to the trailer
Castlevania PS3/360 '08 prototype (English Subtitles) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODb3IWXVh7o#)
@Crisis
we'll ok its cool dude everyone has their own opinion so i understand
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I don't think the exploration mold would really work in harmony with current 3D action level design. The ease of pace and movement is pretty much flipped when you're adding a dimension. How does Metroid Prime handle the level design? I never played it. But I guess that would have the right things to change.
You'd have to make the combat engaging but a quick affair to ensure a quick pace when traveling so that they remain interested by not frustrated by having to run through the same enemies. There's also the issue of also making the environments more interesting to navigate with fast and smooth momentum. The game itself would have to be less difficult (well not that much) than your standard action titles to build on the desire to explore rather than make players wary.
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Thanks for that, DarkPrinceAlucard.
Yeah there's nothing really showing any gameplay. The hair makes some sense as the artwork shows lots of locks, but it does look like a PS2-quality FMV more than anything.
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I don't think the exploration mold would really work in harmony with current 3D action level design. The ease of pace and movement is pretty much flipped when you're adding a dimension. How does Metroid Prime handle the level design? I never played it. But I guess that would have the right things to change.
Prime does it well because it has platforming and a reason to explore
and because the levels are varied and well designed not copied and pasted
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Metroid Prime is awesome. You're really missing out if you've not played it. It's come out years back but it's still very fun.
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i completely agree dude ^^^
seems alot of guys around here like to type those kind of hate posts towards IGA's Alucard character so i tend to avoid replying and voiceing my opinion inorder to avoid a flame war since i AM a proud Alucard fan ;D
and here is a link to the trailer
Castlevania PS3/360 '08 prototype (English Subtitles) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODb3IWXVh7o#)
@Crisis
we'll ok its cool dude everyone has their own opinion so i understand
Yeah I'm a proud Alucard fan too. I had no idea people had such harsh feelings towards him. I figured he'd be popular around here since it's a Castlevania forum. I understand though in a long running video game series like Castlevania everyone has the characters they like and don't like.
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let's get back on topic. Yes, SotN has its flaws. But, remember it is the first of its kind. The only shame is that its successors were just clones in a way. They were great games but they too had their flaws. There really isn't a truly perfect game. Every game has its flaws. For example, the controls in LoS don't always work. Sometimes when you try to dodge, the controls don't respond and you end up getting hit. Still, for being the first of its kind, SotN was very well done. We just need Konami to look at the past games and examine the flaws so they know what to avoid in future games. It wouldn't hurt to have some people check out some fan made forums to see what fans like us are saying.
Regarding whether Konami should have other game developers make a CV like with LoS, I say find the country where a large portion of the fan base is like in the US, and let a subsidiary (Konami America) make it. Another way to make a game would be to have someone take a survey in a country like the US and build a game based on the results of that survey. For example, Konami America could have videogame retailers such as GameStop offer surveys online or in store for a specified period of time and then send the results back to Konami America.
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let's get back on topic. Yes, SotN has its flaws. But, remember it is the first of its kind. The only shame is that its successors were just clones in a way. They were great games but they too had their flaws. There really isn't a truly perfect game. Every game has its flaws. For example, the controls in LoS don't always work. Sometimes when you try to dodge, the controls don't respond and you end up getting hit. Still, for being the first of its kind, SotN was very well done. We just need Konami to look at the past games and examine the flaws so they know what to avoid in future games. It wouldn't hurt to have some people check out some fan made forums to see what fans like us are saying.
Regarding whether Konami should have other game developers make a CV like with LoS, I say find the country where a large portion of the fan base is like in the US, and let a subsidiary (Konami America) make it. Another way to make a game would be to have someone take a survey in a country like the US and build a game based on the results of that survey. For example, Konami America could have videogame retailers such as GameStop offer surveys online or in store for a specified period of time and then send the results back to Konami America.
The problem with surveys is that, if you're looking to expand the fanbase, the people replying to the surveys tend not to be the people you're going to market to.
I don't think the Metroidvania formula is entirely dead, and I think SotN could be revived in a way, but what needs to happen is that producers and fans need to get this notion of "Us vs them" or "Metroidvania vs Classicvania" out of their heads. The only thing that does is stagnate an otherwise excellent series because nobody is willing to make any risks out of fear of fan rage. I think that's why Konami tried getting new fans with LoS; the current fanbase is simply to volatile and blows up at anything that doesn't go their way.
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I don't think the exploration mold would really work in harmony with current 3D action level design. The ease of pace and movement is pretty much flipped when you're adding a dimension. How does Metroid Prime handle the level design? I never played it. But I guess that would have the right things to change.
You'd have to make the combat engaging but a quick affair to ensure a quick pace when traveling so that they remain interested by not frustrated by having to run through the same enemies. There's also the issue of also making the environments more interesting to navigate with fast and smooth momentum. The game itself would have to be less difficult (well not that much) than your standard action titles to build on the desire to explore rather than make players wary.
The core point is that there's so much untapped potential in 2D, they really don't NEED to go the 3D way.
Just make a 2D CV with:
- HD graphics
- a streamlined sub-system entirely based on subweapons (something like the CotM DSS but affecting subs instead of the main weapon, taking a cue from LoS)
- revamped combat - insert unlockable combos and moves, a block system, a dodge system that is better than SotN; make combat fast paced but more strategic and "beat'em up" like compared to the past
- throw in the most gorgeous 2D art your money can buy
- make one seamless map, bring back teleportation pods
- completely and absolutely exploit the potential of 40 inch monitors and platforming
God I could go on all day. There's so MUCH you can do with a console based, 2D CV game. It's basically almost impossible to fail, and the userbase IS there as long as they don't expect to sell millions (which LoS didn't).
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The core point is that there's so much untapped potential in 2D, they really don't NEED to go the 3D way.
Just make a 2D CV with:
- HD graphics
- a streamlined sub-system entirely based on subweapons (something like the CotM DSS but affecting subs instead of the main weapon, taking a cue from LoS)
- revamped combat - insert unlockable combos and moves, a block system, a dodge system that is better than SotN; make combat fast paced but more strategic and "beat'em up" like compared to the past
- throw in the most gorgeous 2D art your money can buy
- make one seamless map, bring back teleportation pods
- completely and absolutely exploit the potential of 40 inch monitors and platforming
God I could go on all day. There's so MUCH you can do with a console based, 2D CV game. It's basically almost impossible to fail, and the userbase IS there as long as they don't expect to sell millions (which LoS didn't).
I agree that a game like that would sell well, there are still a ton of fans of 2D who want Castlevania to go back to 2D. For some reason though Konami is really dead set on making a 3D game, and a game like you just described could also work well in 3D if done properly. Like 105Beta said the fanbase is really getting into this whole us vs them thing. Whether its classicvania vs metroidvania or cox vs iga or 3d vs 2d. I know there is a way to appeal to new fans (a graphically impressive games with modern day controls). While at the same time keeping the old school fans as well. Lords of Shadow was a good game the metascore is proof of that. Apparently though it "wasn't Castlevania enough" for enough of the fanbase and I agree with that as well.
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I don't think the problem is the depth of the combat system. The classicvanias had incredibly simple combat systems but the combat is rarely if ever criticized; the issue is a matter of level and enemy design. I'm not concerned with how deep the combat system is, so long as they can make it work in conjunction with the level and enemy design; unfortunately, that's not really as easily definable a matter.
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The core point is that there's so much untapped potential in 2D, they really don't NEED to go the 3D way.
Just make a 2D CV with:
- HD graphics
- a streamlined sub-system entirely based on subweapons (something like the CotM DSS but affecting subs instead of the main weapon, taking a cue from LoS)
- revamped combat - insert unlockable combos and moves, a block system, a dodge system that is better than SotN; make combat fast paced but more strategic and "beat'em up" like compared to the past
- throw in the most gorgeous 2D art your money can buy
- make one seamless map, bring back teleportation pods
- completely and absolutely exploit the potential of 40 inch monitors and platforming
God I could go on all day. There's so MUCH you can do with a console based, 2D CV game. It's basically almost impossible to fail, and the userbase IS there as long as they don't expect to sell millions (which LoS didn't).
This I agree with.
I agree that a game like that would sell well, there are still a ton of fans of 2D who want Castlevania to go back to 2D. For some reason though Konami is really dead set on making a 3D game, and a game like you just described could also work well in 3D if done properly. Like 105Beta said the fanbase is really getting into this whole us vs them thing. Whether its classicvania vs metroidvania or cox vs iga or 3d vs 2d. I know there is a way to appeal to new fans (a graphically impressive games with modern day controls). While at the same time keeping the old school fans as well. Lords of Shadow was a good game the metascore is proof of that. Apparently though it "wasn't Castlevania enough" for enough of the fanbase and I agree with that as well.
This is also a good point. We need to stop just looking for what we hate and begin looking for what we like and improving on it.
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This thread is false advertising! The perfect game is obviously Final Fight.
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The core point is that there's so much untapped potential in 2D, they really don't NEED to go the 3D way.
Just make a 2D CV with:
- HD graphics
- a streamlined sub-system entirely based on subweapons (something like the CotM DSS but affecting subs instead of the main weapon, taking a cue from LoS)
- revamped combat - insert unlockable combos and moves, a block system, a dodge system that is better than SotN; make combat fast paced but more strategic and "beat'em up" like compared to the past
- throw in the most gorgeous 2D art your money can buy
- make one seamless map, bring back teleportation pods
- completely and absolutely exploit the potential of 40 inch monitors and platforming
God I could go on all day. There's so MUCH you can do with a console based, 2D CV game. It's basically almost impossible to fail, and the userbase IS there as long as they don't expect to sell millions (which LoS didn't).
I don't see how a console game could do better than a portable one. Sales wise. HD graphics is not a necessity, they just need to remake the sprites and all the assets for this to work (or use a different art style/direction), and release it multi-plataform. The next portables will have better graphics than this generation and greater fanbase than the actual one, I can't see the next CV 2D being released for the consoles as a full-disc game.
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I don't get why if Sonic Colors can pull it off, Donkey Kong Country Returns can pull it off, Bionic Commando ReArmed can pull it off, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii can pull it off, Castlevania in 3D sidescrolling action with good graphics hasn't even been conceived. DXC was the closest we got, but it was not on a TV (not really).
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I don't see how a console game could do better than a portable one. Sales wise. HD graphics is not a necessity, they just need to remake the sprites and all the assets for this to work (or use a different art style/direction), and release it multi-plataform. The next portables will have better graphics than this generation and greater fanbase than the actual one, I can't see the next CV 2D being released for the consoles as a full-disc game.
Portable vs home isn't a mere matter of graphics; screen size radically affects game design. Details are much harder to spot on a small screen, you can't achieve the same level of precision in controls or have the same range of level, platforming and combat design.
To explain it in a handful of words, on a 32" screen you can take your handheld game and make the main sprite 4 times as big and the onscreen area 7 times as large. The proportions chance the way you can design the game.
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Bionic Commando Rearmed did it and it's a PS3/360 title.
I'm aware of how 'it works'.
I'm not talking sprites. I'm talking 3D sidescroller with high quality graphics.
All the games I mentioned are home console games, not handhelds.
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Bionic Commando Rearmed did it and it's a PS3/360 title.
I'm aware of how 'it works'.
I'm not talking sprites. I'm talking 3D sidescroller with high quality graphics.
All the games I mentioned are home console games, not handhelds.
Oh I wasn't commenting on what you said.
I agree with you on that - while I would prefer a full 2D game with good art, a 2.5D CV game a la Bionic Command could work and work really well.
Bionic Commando Rearmed was also a commercial hit, so everything points in that direction.
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Sorry, I made an error in my response (I thought you had commented on something I said). Whoops!
But yeah, it seems that Harmony of Despair went with the 2D stock tiles/sprites in HD. I'm not sure how it's selling, so I cannot comment on nit, but I know that ReArmed was damn awesome, and (so far) DKCR has the same awesomeness that the original SNES titles had, only now it's in glorious 3D instead of rotoscopic rendered sprites.
It's a very beautiful game, so I think the same can be applied to Castlevania. DXC had some issues (low quality polygon models, very generic textures in some of the backgrounds, the fact that it was on PSP...) but was definitely heading in the right direction. Ultimate Ghosts 'n Goblins, on the other hand, goes all out.
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+1 in agreement with you Beta. I'm glad that time is finally sorting out the SoTN issue of folks thinking it's the second coming of FF7 or whatever. It's a great game (definitely my favorite exploration based CV with a bullet) but in terms of over CV games, I feel like it's high-mid tier.
I preferred the voice acting (for Alucard anyway) in the PSP version, and if you play Luck Mode and let Dracula kill Richter (or at least deplete his energy completely) in the beginning battle, you'll get less status points which helps make the game a little more challenging, at least in the beginning. I agree with the Inverted Castle too. It might have been cooler if they'd just taken the regular castle and jumbled the areas around in one of 4 or 5 random configurations, which would play into Alucard's comment about it being a creature of chaos. Maybe some of the areas would be upside down but others would lead into completely different areas than they did in the regular castle. I don't think any game did the alternate castle thing as well as Harmony of DIssonance did though. THey made it kind of a Silent Hill-type thing, which was pretty cool.
Great game, but not better than Rondo, CV4, CV3...
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The inverted castle should've been a completely new and different castle. The replay value from this would've been phenominal. And they should've had a wider selection of music for it too.
-X
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I don't get why if Sonic Colors can pull it off, Donkey Kong Country Returns can pull it off, Bionic Commando ReArmed can pull it off, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii can pull it off, Castlevania in 3D sidescrolling action with good graphics hasn't even been conceived. DXC was the closest we got, but it was not on a TV (not really).
Seriously! Konami is dumb.
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To explain it in a handful of words, on a 32" screen you can take your handheld game and make the main sprite 4 times as big and the onscreen area 7 times as large. The proportions chance the way you can design the game.
relatively. symphony's resolution is actually not much bigger than portrait's, ecclesia's or dawn's; the graphics are simply scaled to fit the size of the screen. it appears larger. yes, this gives a little bit more leeway with pixel-hunting, and possibly darker colors, but it does not at all require the limitations that you're imposing upon it. essentially, you're describing contemporary trends in game design rather than an actual limitations.
if symphony of the night worked on the PSP then any comparable game would as well.
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relatively. symphony's resolution is actually not much bigger than portrait's, ecclesia's or dawn's; the graphics are simply scaled to fit the size of the screen. it appears larger. yes, this gives a little bit more leeway with pixel-hunting, and possibly darker colors, but it does not at all require the limitations that you're imposing upon it. essentially, you're describing contemporary trends in game design rather than an actual limitations.
if symphony of the night worked on the PSP then any comparable game would as well.
True. The pixel ratio is not much different, but the DS screen is (though just as wide) isn't as tall as the TV ratio.
-X
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| SotN PS1 | 256 x 240 |
| SNES | 256 x 224 |
| DS | 256 x 192 |
Note: the PS1 has variable resolutions. SotN's menu screen is 368x240 while in game is 256x240. Megaman X4's in game resolution is 320x224 I believe. SotN's title screen is super wide, clocking in at 512x240. Megaman X6 also uses this resolution for the cutscenes with art and it's title screen. I believe Capcom fighters also use that, or a very similar resolution. When stretched to the TV's ratio it gives a higher detail. Capcom VS SNK Pro uses the highest available PS1 resolution, which is 640x480. They use it for their art gallery.
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Also, although the in-game resolution for SotN is as UZO mentions it, there's a black bar at the top and the bottom of the screen, similar to the older CV titles. If you cropped these pixels out, you can fit SotN on a DS's screen, methinks.
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Oddly enough the visible area of the game, excluding the black bars is 256 x 207. Odd height... Either way, it's still too big.
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By a matter of 15 pixels, and you could just detract 7 from the top or bottom and 8 from the other. The difference is pretty much negligible.
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Honestly, in some rooms it would cut the floor off. They cut things REALLY close in some rooms with those black borders, leaving only half floor tiles (8 pixels) visible. That'd be cut off by reducing the screen another 8 on top and bottom.
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I meant in the design process of the game itself (hypothetically speaking, of course), not in editing the game now that it has already been made.
there would be some differences, but most would be pretty damn minor, i think. the difference of 15 pixels isn't really the kind of difference that would cause the game to be dealt with in a completely different fashion; it wouldn't really necessitate a different approach or different graphics or anything like that (whereas if the game were designed in 320x240 or something else, maybe something weird like 512x240, it would necessitate some actual differences).
side note: i like the fact that sotn cut it pretty close with its floor tiles sometimes. the game was always good about not being formulaic with its layout and presentation. a stark contrast from the rectangles and boxes approach of the latter entries.
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I meant in the design process of the game itself (hypothetically speaking, of course), not in editing the game now that it has already been made.
Ah, yes, that would be very possible. No issue there at all.
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but not this heavenly being that puts all other Castlevania games to shame.
Joining in on the discussion here a bit late and abruptly but
Your argument is INVALID!
SOTN has and will more than likely continue to put all other 2d Castlevania games to shame. It had the most detailed sprite graphics of 'em all, a brilliantly memorable soundtrack, and some of the most new and unique ideas brought to Castlevania during its time. I will accept no rebuttal. Sir, you HAVE ventured into the depths of hell by creating this topic, I hope you can stand the flames.
On a personal sidenote: This topic is an incredible oxymoron. You want to critique it when your saying it's already perfect?
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and some of the most new and unique ideas brought to Castlevania during its time
^:rollseyes: Can we play Super Metroid? Please?
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I tried to play SOTN yesterday in my 360... it's horrible, plain horrible, its graphics... I can't stand them anymore... we need a remake, NOW
Seriously, the game is fugly, unplayable in an HD set, Cv1 looks better IMO, SOTN doesn't because, you know, we all remember it as a good loking game, and see it's pixelated glory is.. a brain smasher.
The game is not perfect, but it's good enough to be worth a nostalgia trip via remake, Konami, make it happen (When the LoS sequel gets made of course, it will be the last big vania this gen so you could release the remake for not making us chill 5 years without some vampire killing).
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You sound like a spiteful whiny child. SotN is still an incredibly beautiful game filled with some of the best pixel art to grace the series, let alone all of gaming in general.
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I challenge you to download the XBLA version and come here saying the same >:(
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I will take that challenge.
I've played the XBLA version.
It's the same as the PSX original (I've done some original PSX tricks in it, too).
You are right that in an HDTV, it looks horizontally stretched, but I believe you can fix that with a tweak in the display options (how the classic games display on the screen, whether in 4:3 or stretched or zoomed). I don't have an x360 though.
Even now, though, those are very beautiful detailed graphics... I cannot in good conscience, agree with you on this one, Ahasverus.
Find a 2D game, even now, with graphics that are sufficiently superior, while still being as fresh and varied, as SotN (in any console, and even handhelds). I believe you will find that task difficult. I can only name a few off the top of my head and while they may be prettier, they're not in full 2D. And if they are, they're not as varied. Those are Muramasa, A Boy and His Blob, and Odin Sphere (and all suffer from not being as varied). Mayyyyybe World of Goo (and that's a big maybe).
The graphics in the DS games do give it a good shot, but do not come close, especially with regards to the tilesets for the stages.
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Oops, sorry. SoTN has the strongest composition in its graphics and level design not only out of the series, but in gaming in general (yes, better than Muramasa). It has the best animation filled with subtleties and techniques that are missing in any of the other vanias. For example: the sub-pixeling in Alucard's animations. It holds a very strong and smart way of using color and tile usage in its backgrounds. The underground caverns only use two layers of parallax yet there is an astounding depth to them because of the way its designed. How you mentioned Castlevania I is just bizarre. Its color usage is pretty awkward and its tile usage is pretty misshapen and wonky at times. I mean even if it's part of the charm of it, the animations are pretty misshapen and plain odd in their poses. Because of it, we got hunchbacks for Belmonts. Richter from RoB is a clearer more detailed version of Simon's stance. Imagine it in high resolution. The pose is just extremely awkward. Alucard's walk animation itself has pretty odd arm movement but it's really recalling the old games anyway.
ask any professional artist and they'd agree lol
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No no no.. you are not getting my point... SOTN's graphics are gorgeous, one of the best (if not THE) in the traditional pixel-by-pixel school, they look great in the PSX, great in the PSP, I played it in my xbox (1) via emulator, and only with some anisontrophic filter, it looks truly truly beautiful... but then comes the XBLA version... in HD, even without stretching, it's ugly, because of the lack of "scanlines", the pixels are now visible one-by-one, and the whole geometric aspect is now gone, background colors suffer from bad compresion (greys and blacks tuning into grays and purples etc) and it just lacks, ermm, rounded edges... it's too squarey (?) but as I said, it happens because it's now being played in a HDTV set that is x7 or so superior in native resolution and those screens display the pixels one over the other and they are no interlined by natural scanlines of SDTV screens so-- believe me, it doesn't look good... and the problem is, it doesn't make justice to the ORIGINAl magnificence those 2D graphics had, that's my concern, newcomers who liked LoS or HoD even could be interested in playing the so lauded SOTN, then they will download it and say "What is this? is this the pretty game I was told? It's crap I won't play it" and then they will miss the great gameplay is there.
It truly, truly, deserves an HD remake, and this generation is the ideal one, I bet next gen development costs will be astronomical, and we know how good Konami is for lending money.. I'm just asking for the preservation of the "classic" rate of the game, an inmortal classic as it deserves to be.
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i can see square pixels on my psx and it doesn't bother me. i dont think it detriments the game's graphics at all. the compositions aren't harmed by that. the individual elements that make up the pictures just look different, but it does nothing to harm the way they're organized. though, i could see how changed colors might muck things up though. the game was always blocky. if anything, it's the tv because it's more HIGH TECH and doesn't blur things as much as old tvs.
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can you show some pictures or something to justify that? I haven't heard that complaint from anyone else.
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I challenge you to download the XBLA version and come here saying the same >:(
It was the first thing I downloaded and played. Pixelated or not, it looks great.
I was playing it through ePSXe output to my TV recently too. Looked amazing, even at that size, with no filters.
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Maybe he doesn't like big squared pixels?
I will admit that sometimes, I put on the 'scanlines' filter on my Zsnes for nostalgia-factor.
Zsnes's new versions even have a 'fake TV NTSC' filter for HDTV output... JUST IN CASE YOU WANT YOUR NEW TV TO LOOK OOOOOOOOOLD AND DECREPIT!
(I love that filter sometimes! xD)
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Haha, yes, the NTSC filter is so funny. It's a great addition for an old console emulator. They should all have it.
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I know where Ahasverus is coming from. Scanlines make a lot of difference. It’s the first thing I turn on when playing via emulation.
I downloaded the Xbox360 version of Symphony and played through it a couple of years back, and it really struck me then how vacant the castle felt. In latter years IGA has over-populated the castle. He’s put all manner of systems over the top. Symphony feels unadorned by comparison. And it doesn’t suffer for it. Sure, in retrospect there are some poor platforming sections, and long, semi-empty corridors, but there’s atmosphere for it. Arriving at the Outer Wall with that music playing and the rain coming down. Magical. Olrox’s Quarters still has a special place in my videogame heart with Dance of Pales playing. I may have thought it nostalgia, but having gone back and played it, it’s still special.
I also agree with Valtiel: its controls do so much to make it a fun and engaging experience. Alucard moves with sophistication and fluidity and has such poise that his character and personality takes on superior definition as a dark and elegant anti-hero. I don’t like many of the characters in the series latterly, but Alucard is thoroughly deserving of his high station in fans’ eyes, even if I still prefer an old rugged Belmont.
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It's a great review, because except for the dialogue complaint (I actually loved it all the way through) it's all too true! I've had those complaints sinde Day ONE, ok maybe Day TWO, when I actually got farther in the game.
SotN is a game that had tons of potential, but ultimately fell flat. Like a woman that looks stunningly hot when dressed, you anticipate awesome things coming for you, but then you get her naked and... it just isn't the same at all, but you have to get through the motions because you're already there anyway.
Sure the game is outstanding and it may have staying power as already mentioned, but that's because you keep remembering the awesome intro and what could've been. It might not seem like it at first, but a game like Metroid (the original) actually shows to be much better in the long run.
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Like a woman that looks stunningly hot when dressed, you anticipate awesome things coming for you, but then you get her naked and... it just isn't the same at all, but you have to get through the motions because you're already there anyway.
Someone print that quote in the box of its next re-release ;D :lol:
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You sound like a spiteful whiny child. SotN is still an incredibly beautiful game filled with some of the best pixel art to grace the series, let alone all of gaming in general.
This.
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Sure the game is outstanding and it may have staying power as already mentioned, but that's because you keep remembering the awesome intro and what could've been. It might not seem like it at first, but a game like Metroid (the original) actually shows to be much better in the long run.
thats such a terribly written sentence. "the game is outstanding" - implying a sense of objectivity outside of human interpretation - and then you assert "thats because you remember "the awesome intro"".
which is kind of a dumb claim anyway, regardless of the wonky phrasing. i didn't really start to appreciate Symphony until at least 1/3rd of the way through the game, once the stucture of the castle started to make more sense and its depths started to be revealed.
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Yeah the intro has little to do with why I'm into that game. I really don't start to pick up into it until I reach the Royal Chapel, Olrox's Quarters, or the Coliseum.
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thats such a terribly written sentence. "the game is outstanding" - implying a sense of objectivity outside of human interpretation - and then you assert "thats because you remember "the awesome intro"".
which is kind of a dumb claim anyway, regardless of the wonky phrasing. i didn't really start to appreciate Symphony until at least 1/3rd of the way through the game, once the stucture of the castle started to make more sense and its depths started to be revealed.
What then? Should I insert "in my opinion" all the time? Yeah the intro and the early game is the best part of the game (in my opinion), for me anyway. Sure getting to know the castle is FUN, the music is very good, the art is top notch, and for many people, this was enough to give the game a 10/10. Not for me, as the OP says, bosses go down too fast and you have to just stand there to even see all of their moves, also the lack of a challenge chases you all the time, it's practically impossible to ignore. It's as if you have to forcibly slow down to fully enjoy the game.
Yes, the game, is good, but lacked some important tweaks. To the people who love this game unconditionally, more power to you, but I just don't share the same feeling, that's all.
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no, i'm saying that you're switching "tense"; you're jumping from an objective statement and then explaining/relating it subjectively. in this particular case, its done so poorly and the result is technically nonsensical; you're essentially saying that "no, wait, its not actually objective but subjective". its kind of like if i were to say "i am going to the store later and it was great"; it switches tense and doesn't work all that well.
something like "The game only appears to be good because of the awesome intro" is more internally consistent and better represents what you were trying to say. although i still disagree strongly with the sentiment, as it doesn't even remotely apply in my case.
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I don't feel that the difficulty is that much of a flaw considering the point of the game was to explore, and so, it was in the best interest of its design to have a lesser difficulty so that players weren't afraid to venture out and get punished or to inhibit pace and flow of the player's navigation. The action itself was really just a branch of the exploration aspect, with its level of ease correlating with the rewards for exploration. Most of the level design wasn't so much to provide challenge as it was to give identity to the areas by way of the player moving through them. The enemies most of the time were not so much obstacles as they were parts that built up the environment, establishing more rhythm and dynamics. The game wasn't so much about the action as it was about navigating and discovering the depths of the castle. Of course, having a preference for action and being dissatisfied with this game is okay. Because it never strove for that and it clashed with that preference.
It's like having a blind date with someone you think said he was a strongman, but on that date appears some cave-exploring artist-type raving about all the little cranks and cracks in a cave rather than how he bashed CAVE-GOBLINS in it.
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no, i'm saying that you're switching "tense"; you're jumping from an objective statement and then explaining/relating it subjectively. in this particular case, its done so poorly and the result is technically nonsensical; you're essentially saying that "no, wait, its not actually objective but subjective". its kind of like if i were to say "i am going to the store later and it was great"; it switches tense and doesn't work all that well.
something like "The game only appears to be good because of the awesome intro" is more internally consistent and better represents what you were trying to say. although i still disagree strongly with the sentiment, as it doesn't even remotely apply in my case.
I may have done that unintentionally, but that just might be cause I actually think you can't be completely objective or on the other hand, subjective, when judging a game. On the first game you're a robot, on the second, you're a blind, unreasonable lover/hater.
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Fair enough Thernz. It's a good point of view and surely one can appreciate the game more that way. When I first began playing SotN seriously, I had already played most if not all earlier Castlevanias. Surely SotN was a whole different animal that didn't have that aspect of challenge I loved on the series. You know, exploring the castle was mostly a relaxing experience, but when bosses fell so easily and almost as fast as a group of normal enemies, well... I at least expected a remnant of that challenge previously in the series been poured on the bosses, or at least on Death... or at least on Dracula.
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Yeah, the game's difficulty is just a walk in the par-, err, stroll through the castle.
(The hardest time I had was figuring out how to get up the broken staircase at Castle Keep, I had no idea a bat form existed)
But it was a creepy, mysterious, adventurous, and entertaining stroll.
It felt like the castle had an actual presence to it. A presence I haven't felt in Castlevania games for a long time.
(Now we have whip-action in deserts, pirate ships, jungles, and what-have-you, yay.)
In my opinion, its because of that "presence" that this game holds a special place in the expanding library of Castlevania games.
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(Now we have whip-action in deserts, pirate ships, jungles, and what-have-you, yay.)
Now and back to 1986 too ;)
I think what makes SOTN especial is, nothing less, that the soundtrack. Yep, there I said it, what makes SOTN especial is that the soundtrack is the one and only Cv soundtrack that actually fits perfectly with the stage is representing, it's classy just like the Castle imagery and Alucard himself so it attaches into the whole atmsphere and intensifies it.
PLay SOTN without music and you'll see little more than a Super metroid rip off with cartoony sound effects :P
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Offopic: Goddamnit, what happened to the reply button? I want it back :(
Anyways. I agree with almost everything you said, person who started this topic. A few points though.
I think Death is supposed to sound like a minion. He is Dracula's servant, after all. But yeah, he should've sounded more sinister (I consider his LoI voice the best so far). Shaft sounded like someone's voice was just made lower. Alucard's voice may have been a bit too deep. For DXC, they went to the other end and made him sound like a teenager.
After leveling up sufficiently and with all the abilities at his disposal, Al is damn near invincible. The cool things you could do as a dhampire were great, but the enemies should have been able to counter that. But this is only after leveling up. Inverted Castle is a nice, quirky thing and I'm glad they put it in. Sadly, they kind of replicated it in HoD.
All in all, I still consider it the best CV to date, though sharing the place with Dracula's Curse. Deciding definitely between those two is a real pain.
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Now and back to 1986 too ;)
I think what makes SOTN especial is, nothing less, that the soundtrack. Yep, there I said it, what makes SOTN especial is that the soundtrack is the one and only Cv soundtrack that actually fits perfectly with the stage is representing, it's classy just like the Castle imagery and Alucard himself so it attaches into the whole atmsphere and intensifies it.
PLay SOTN without music and you'll see little more than a Super metroid rip off with cartoony sound effects :P
How did Ahasverus ever like Castlevania before Lords of Shadow?
I've never seen a bigger load of bull.
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How did Ahasverus ever like Castlevania before Lords of Shadow?
I've never seen a bigger load of bull.
And I don't care :)
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How did Ahasverus ever like Castlevania before Lords of Shadow?
i sometimes wonder the same thing.
all i've seen him do is praise LOS and constantly bash IGA and his games.
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Actually, I'm going to start something new. Whenever I see a load of bull, I'm going to give it the bull stamp. Like this;
Now and back to 1986 too ;)
I think what makes SOTN especial is, nothing less, that the soundtrack. Yep, there I said it, what makes SOTN especial is that the soundtrack is the one and only Cv soundtrack that actually fits perfectly with the stage is representing, it's classy just like the Castle imagery and Alucard himself so it attaches into the whole atmsphere and intensifies it.
PLay SOTN without music and you'll see little more than a Super metroid rip off with cartoony sound effects :P
(http://www.dimondsoft.com/hotlink/BullStamp.gif)
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PLay SOTN without music and you'll see little more than a Super metroid rip off with cartoony sound effects :P
really, Ahasverus?? Come on dude..
I could counter that statement with "Play LOS without the CV name drops and you'll see little more than a God of War rip off with a boring soundtrack"
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well he liked iga in 2008. but then cox showed him the light~
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I could counter that statement with "Play LOS without the CV name drops and you'll see little more than a God of War rip off with a boring soundtrack"
And it is!! I mean, I NEVER said that made it a BAD game, it clicks perfectly! Everything, I've always considered castlevania as MORE than the sum of its parts (it has very quesitonable parts) and SOTN is not an exception, SOTN music makes it better, makes it different, it just mixes the atmosphere and stuff, everything is in the right place at the right time and the game is amazing no matter how you might hate it, you can NEVER objectively say that it'0s a bad game, it's a masterpiece of its time and I've always lauded that, some criticism of statements like "It's little more than a Super Metroid clone" are just (bad spelled) appreciations and they can't NEVER ever take a merit out of the game.
Perhaps there's a problem with me sometimes, IDK, perhaps I don't write my full ideas so it gets convulted and I sound like bullling :P would you forgive me guys? :)
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would you forgive me guys? :)
NO THE DAMAGE IS DONE >:(
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Learn to 'forgive and forget' unless you want Jorge to chew you out again.
-X
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lol what? I thought it was obvious that I was kidding. And mini-modding is usually frowned upon, X.
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Damn, and I was about to post the same thing as OP.
There goes my 10 paragraphs worth of wall of texts. ;_;
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Damn, and I was about to post the same thing as OP.
There goes my 10 paragraphs worth of wall of texts. ;_;
post it anyway.
I'll read it. :)
You know what would have been neat with the inverted castle? If they had done something like what Aria did with the Chaos realm. flip it over... but scramble it. That would have made it a bit more interesting.
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Damn, and I was about to post the same thing as OP.
There goes my 10 paragraphs worth of wall of texts. ;_;
I would read it too. I'm never sick of reading reviews of SotN.
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You really should use the bull stamp more Uzo, it's been awhile.
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SotN is very good, it's a mythic game, but it is not perfect.
Why is it so good and famous? Because it was the first Metroidvania. All other Metroidvanias were great, but people didn't consider them as mythic as SotN and said they were just SotN rip-offs.
SotN's music is cool, but other games have music as good as SotN.
And I wanted to say other things but I forgot. :D
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I agree with your review in all aspects but even so I still consider it as being the absolutely best game ever(along with super CV IV).
The game was easy, yes it really was..guess Alucard is too powerful by nature=p
what I don't understand is why they didn't do these reforms when releasing it to the sega saturn version.. all the ideas and potentials just sat there waiting to be taken...no changes except from the two extra areas...
Why the hell didn't they make it twise as large? with much more enemies, areas, bosses... how hard could it be!? such a waste of opportunity! it was a safe card, a masterpiece that could have become even better with some slight changes.
Sure it can be done today, but it wouldn't be the same anymore..
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SotN is very good, it's a mythic game, but it is not perfect.
Why is it so good and famous? Because it was the first Metroidvania. All other Metroidvanias were great, but people didn't consider them as mythic as SotN and said they were just SotN rip-offs.
SotN's music is cool, but other games have music as good as SotN.
And I wanted to say other things but I forgot. :D
Also, other Metroidvanias arent as HUGE as Symphony. this was a PS1 game. with a huge castle, and then a huge inverted castle. NO other metroidvania is that huge. not even Dawn or portrait.
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I think the reason why SotN's castle was hugh-looking was because it was so spread out. And looking at the other castles on a slightly smaller screen, they are more compacted. But if you were to take some screen caps of each castle and place them on top of one-another, then we could get a better overall sense of the scale of each map.
-X
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I actually thought Dawn's castle was bigger than SoTN, to its detriment. PoR probably has more space with all of its areas combined, OoE too.
I mean, SoTN is big if you take in account the Inverted Castle, but on its own, it's at an optimal size I think. The Marble Gallery and Outer Walls aren't that big and yet act as sort of main hubs for the rest of the castle's connections and flows greatly because of how it's not extremely huge. Any of the excess isn't required to run through most of the time. For example, you don't even have to explore beyond the second floor of the coliseum to get the needed relic.
SoTN also had the least copying and pasting so that helps too.
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The one major issue with the game was that the distribution of teleports and save points weren't uniform.
And there were way too few teleports and too many long corridors.
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All other Metroidvanias were great, but people didn't consider them as mythic as SotN and said they were just SotN rip-offs.
I don't think many people would agree with you on this. A lot of people (myself included) hate PoR, and I personally think OoE is pretty mediocre. The only ones that were "great" in my opinion were SotN and AoS. The others were generally good, but there was a lot to love about SotN.
I actually thought Dawn's castle was bigger than SoTN, to its detriment. PoR probably has more space with all of its areas combined, OoE too.
I agree with this. It doesn't matter how big the castle is if you can't fill it with enough interesting stuff. The attention to detail in SotN was what made it great.
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I personally liked Aria's castle a lot more than Dawn's and Portrait's too, and it's the smallest out of the bunch.
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One thing that disappointed me in SotN was the battle with Dracula. It was so impersonal. It should have been an epic battle between father and son. Instead we get a battle where Dracula sits on his throne the whole time, summoning up his minions. He even calls it "his true form." Wtf?
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One thing that disappointed me in SotN was the battle with Dracula. It was so impersonal. It should have been an epic battle between father and son. Instead we get a battle where Dracula sits on his throne the whole time, summoning up his minions. He even calls it "his true form." Wtf?
I agree. SCV4's Dracula battle was way more epic then SotN's.
-X