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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: pimp dracula on June 24, 2012, 05:41:48 AM

Title: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on June 24, 2012, 05:41:48 AM
This topic may be old but here is my take.

Many people were saying that LoS should not be a CV title since it doesn't resemble any CV element except for the fact that the MC is a Belmont. That's not true. Yes, many elements are new on the series, but it still feels like a CV game to me. Here's why:

The Stage System
Older Castlevania (Classicvanias) are played with simplicity. Just whoop some baddies, reach the finish line and beat the boss. This game have the same formula. Beat the stage to proceed to the next one.

Stage checkpoint
Another element from Classicvanias. You restart from the last checkpoint if you ever fail the level by either getting fall from a pit (in this case you only take damage) or simply get beat up by baddies.

Subweapons
This element never left any CV title and LoS is not an exception. You get to use things like dagger and holy water. Maybe some hack n slash games have this feature but I think it's still different. Look at DMC. He use guns as subweapons and we never see this thing on a CV game as a subweapon.

Platforming
Who said LoS was just a pure hack n slash game without any substance? You need to jump to some platforms to reach certain areas. This were not much on a factor on the previous CV games but you will see Gabriel swinging with his chain just like Simon on CV4.
 
Backtracking
A feature started in Simon's Quest. Unlike CV2 or any Metroidvanias, you don't  return in some level because you can't reach some areas of it but rather you have to master it to obtain some power-ups. Like Rondo, you will find some areas for an alternate route. In LoS case, this means new moves for Gabe.

The Gothic Horror theme
You will see enemies like werewolf, vampires, demons and stuff. That's what Castlevania is about. Unless you prefer the anime themed one (Legends, RoB, DoS and PoR). This is a standard element for a CV game.

And the least important but still a factor somehow..

Characters
There are some returning characters from previous games like Conell and Camilla. Being able to play a Belmont with a whip is CV-isque enough for me. Fan favorites like Simon and Alucard are returning in the sequel. Where is Dracula? Well, unless you finished the game or just want to be spoiled here it is
(click to show/hide)

That's all I have to say (for now at least) but hey! Everyone have different opinion.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: beingthehero on June 24, 2012, 08:54:05 AM
We have a topic dedicated to finding CV elements in Lords. Perhaps one of the biggest is the fact that the combat system is exactly the same as the one in Lament. It's often forgotten that Lament set the trend that God of War followed, so many modern 3D action games followed Castlevania.

However, you're using some of the most vague qualifiers ever. Jumping, linearity, and continues makes Lords a Castlevania game? You've just described basic video game staples unique to about 3/4 of all video games released since 1986. You can see most of your attributes here:

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 Genesis in 19:55 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtDl-0B5U-g#)

Damn dude, you've done the impossible. You've made Sonic the Hedgehog a Castlevania title.

Also werewolves and demons were in DoS and PoR.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: beingthehero on June 24, 2012, 08:57:12 AM
I guess it's also worth mentioning that linear stages/areas were in PoR, OoE, and CoD, especially the latter. You can return to them if you want, but once you kill the boss then you've done all that you've needed to do.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: knightmere on June 24, 2012, 08:57:45 AM
Why does TC feel the need to convince people here that LoS is a CV title?
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: X on June 24, 2012, 09:21:26 AM
Nothing will convince me. I gave the game a shot but by the time I got to the Dracolich I was done with it. It just isn't CV-ish by any stretch to me. Name drops and the title is as far as it goes but otherwise a complete stranger of a game. Others here will feel differently about it though and that's all anyone should expect.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Rugal on June 24, 2012, 10:42:36 AM
LoS = Lord of the Rings spinoff with Castlevania title thrown on during the finishing touches of the game. Also random character names from the old game and fairy subweapon. lolololololol
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on June 24, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
Yeah I dont get it either. I saw plenty of CV elements in LoS. perhaps certain PARTS of the first area are somewhat alien, but classic CV's had forests and ancient ruins too, so...

BTW, link to said thread

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,3625 (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,3625)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Johnny Alucard on June 24, 2012, 12:36:01 PM
Castlevania purists, simple as that. I personally thought it was a fine game, but to bear the Castlevania name, a few name drops here and there isn't going to cut it exactly.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: darkwzrd4 on June 24, 2012, 04:05:09 PM
Quote from: Johnny Alucard on June 24, 2012, 12:36:01 PM
Castlevania purists, simple as that. I personally thought it was a fine game, but to bear the Castlevania name, a few name drops here and there isn't going to cut it exactly.
Exactly.  The purists don't like LoS because they believe that a CV has that specific style of music,
(click to show/hide)
, and requires you to be stuck in Dracula's castle for most of (if not all of) the game.  They seem to see the game as blasphemy.
The game itself was great.  They are a few things that I have issue with, but that has to do with the gameplay and not if it is a "true CV" or not.  If it wasn't for the name drops and the CV name in the title, there likely wouldn't be hated by the purists.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Ahasverus on June 24, 2012, 04:10:35 PM
LoS has "Castlevania" in the title. So that's it.
Now, if we're talking about its relation with the series, it's a Castevania begins game; we saw the Dracula less world, in its natural state, it's a first chapter (We did't know that, really) so it has the right to be somewhat different, but also has enough series staples to not be a completely outsider game.

And seriously, if you didn't feel the "Castlevania" in the castle part, you seriously couldn't with anything else.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on June 24, 2012, 06:38:12 PM
It's more than just name drops though. Areas and environments, the main character, enemies, whip combat, (which is VERY similar to LoI) subweapons, stuff like that. certain areas had a definite Castlevania atmosphere too. Specifically the castle, but some of the other parts hard their grounds in the classic CV's. ancient ruins, dark forests...
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Maedhros on June 24, 2012, 06:40:13 PM
I don't get why the OP talks like the forum have only one opinion. The number of people here who thinks LoS is a CV game can be on the minority size, but they have oppinions just as valid as the ones who don't see CV in LoS are.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on June 24, 2012, 07:07:08 PM
I respect everyone's opinion here and I'm not trying to knock some people who thinks the opposite. I just stated some facts. Like I said before, everyone has different opinion. I did not post this thread to "convince people" that LoS is played just like other CV games. I only post on what I saw in the game and that's how I see it.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Thunderbrand on June 24, 2012, 07:10:03 PM
LoS didn't feel entirely CV-ish to me until Chapter 5. From that point on, it really did. In fact, it felt like a 3D CVII at times. It took some build up but by the time you got close to the castle, things started making sense to me on a bigger scale.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Maedhros on June 24, 2012, 07:24:11 PM
Quote from: pimp dracula on June 24, 2012, 07:07:08 PM
I respect everyone's opinion here and I'm not trying to knock some people who thinks the opposite. I just stated some facts. Like I said before, everyone has different opinion. I did not post this thread to "convince people" that LoS is played just like other CV games. I only post on what I saw in the game and that's how I see it.
And people already stated their oppinions on why they don't think LoS is CV enough for them. So, what's the point of this topic?
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on June 24, 2012, 08:00:14 PM
Quote from: Maedhros on June 24, 2012, 07:24:11 PM
And people already stated their oppinions on why they don't think LoS is CV enough for them. So, what's the point of this topic?
Like I said, I was just trying to post what I saw in the game. That's the point.

Perhaps you saw it differently since we have different opinion.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Kingshango on June 24, 2012, 08:19:52 PM
 Now without going into a giant wall O text I'll just say it was the overall tone of the game that made people feel like it's not a Castlevania game, especially if they were brought up on the Metroidvania's in the IGA era, then BOOM reboot out of nowhere with a God of War looking game with hollywood movie music. I agree that the namedrops felt forced with Olrox and Brauner being the prime offenders, however I thought Carmilla and Laura were ok. Like everyone else, it felt like Castlevania when I got to chapter 4 but then it goes off on it's again during chapter 9/12 (if you wanna count the DLC then it comes back, somewhat).

With all that said, I think the sequel's look more like Castlevania compaired to Lords of Shadow 1, music and gameplay aside though. However I do need to see gameplay of Lords of Shadow 2.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on June 24, 2012, 10:13:45 PM
Well at least we know that MS did that on purpose. They wanted the pre dracula world to feel different.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Leirbag on June 24, 2012, 11:35:09 PM
Quote from: Rugal on June 24, 2012, 10:42:36 AM
LoS = Lord of the Rings spinoff with Castlevania title thrown on during the finishing touches of the game. Also random character names from the old game and fairy subweapon. lolololololol
The first castlevania hero was a rip-off of conan the barbarian who was named Belmondo in japan (like the french actor)
The 80's: He-man , conan the barbarian , simon belmont...
Don't jump to conclusions, i love those games.

Plus, metroidvanias are the spin-off here , Iga has to put a "X" in every japanese title if he wants to do whatever comes thu his mind. Switch to 5 minutes:
Game Center CX - Koji Igarashi Interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSZ8OhfDyDg#)


Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on June 25, 2012, 04:37:42 AM
Quote from: pimp dracula on June 24, 2012, 05:41:48 AM
This topic may be old but here is my take.

Many people were saying that LoS should not be a CV title since it doesn't resemble any CV element except for the fact that the MC is a Belmont. That's not true. Yes, many elements are new on the series, but it still feels like a CV game to me. Here's why:

The Stage System
Older Castlevania (Classicvanias) are played with simplicity. Just whoop some baddies, reach the finish line and beat the boss. This game have the same formula. Beat the stage to proceed to the next one.

Stage checkpoint
Another element from Classicvanias. You restart from the last checkpoint if you ever fail the level by either getting fall from a pit (in this case you only take damage) or simply get beat up by baddies.

Subweapons
This element never left any CV title and LoS is not an exception. You get to use things like dagger and holy water. Maybe some hack n slash games have this feature but I think it's still different. Look at DMC. He use guns as subweapons and we never see this thing on a CV game as a subweapon.

Platforming
Who said LoS was just a pure hack n slash game without any substance? You need to jump to some platforms to reach certain areas. This were not much on a factor on the previous CV games but you will see Gabriel swinging with his chain just like Simon on CV4.
 
Backtracking
A feature started in Simon's Quest. Unlike CV2 or any Metroidvanias, you don't  return in some level because you can't reach some areas of it but rather you have to master it to obtain some power-ups. Like Rondo, you will find some areas for an alternate route. In LoS case, this means new moves for Gabe.

The Gothic Horror theme
You will see enemies like werewolf, vampires, demons and stuff. That's what Castlevania is about. Unless you prefer the anime themed one (Legends, RoB, DoS and PoR). This is a standard element for a CV game.

Generally I doubt you'd get much disagreement on the idea that some CV games in the past have had some of the individual bullet points, but where you'd get disagreement is on whether some of them are necessary or relevant to something feeling like CV. People's complaints are generally outside those items, with the exception of the gothic horror issue, where some dispute whether the designs are close enough to past CVs.

The fact that some of the earliest classicvanias had no backtracking points it out as unnecessary.

The fact that Metroidvanias can feel like CV games without really possessing a stage system, a checkpoint system, or subweapons (some didn't have subweapons, some did) is sort of a testament to the fact that those aren't really necessary either.

That leaves platforming and gothic horror. This means four of those things LoS borrowed that you listed are not really necessary for something to feel like CV.

It also isn't that the stuff you listed doesn't exist, but the reasons why it doesn't "feel right" to people tend to be in the details and the execution, like divorcing a lot of the platforming segments from the combat (a smart move for not making them frustrating in 3D, but a bad move for trying to mimic the feel of a 2D platformer), making a lot of the platforming wall-scaling (which adds believability but takes away from it feeling like the type of platforming of 2D games which doesn't usually mesh with realistic environment design), using a combat system that doesn't even try be like 2D combat, and introducing new elements that some feel are "foreign" to past CV canon--like Pan, "the old gods," etc.

It's not disputed that LoS has stages or platforming or that it borrows elements from past CVs, but rather people's grievances are rather different. Some don't like that the gameplay doesn't feel like the older 2D games (and how can it? It's 3D combat and 3D platforming, which are going to be different from 2D combat and 2D platforming, almost no matter how you do it, and sometimes radically different depending on how you do it.) Some don't like that the world and monster design feels more traditional fantasy-esque than typically was the case. Some don't like that the music was changed to a more "movie-like" orchestral tone. Some don't like the fact that Dracula is in his nascent form rather than his complete form (which couldn't really be helped given the overall storyline placement of the game). Some don't like a combination of all of those or other things yet unmentioned.

Quote from: pimp dracula on June 24, 2012, 05:41:48 AM
Characters
There are some returning characters from previous games like Conell and Camilla.

Those aren't really returning characters (in an alternate timeline, no characters can really be returning ones), just reused names for totally different characters. Brauner (which you didn't mention) and Cornell especially. They almost couldn't be more dissimilar from the characters they're referencing--they probably would've been better off with different names. Camilla, however, might be close enough that it isn't a problem with her having that name--at least I haven't seen any complaints about it like I have with Cornell and Brauner. This seems to be a barrier to you understanding the perspective of the "doesn't feel like CV" camp--noting the surface layer but not noting the differences in the details.

Quote from: pimp dracula on June 24, 2012, 05:41:48 AM
Being able to play a Belmont with a whip is CV-isque enough for me.

I assume you mean as far as characters rather than overall, to which I'd say not even that is required--there are plenty of CVs now where you don't play as a Belmont. Giving a character the name Belmont and making a whip his main weapon is an easy and concrete measure. In contrast, making one game feel like another with required dimensional (3D vs 2D) and representational differences (high-poly models vs sprites), that enters the realm of the intangible. That's hard.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: A-Yty on June 25, 2012, 04:54:09 AM
I don't get you not getting it.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Nagumo on June 25, 2012, 05:42:33 AM
The first two major areas of LoS remind me (positively) of Harry Potter for some reason.   :)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sumac on June 25, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
Quote
People's complaints are generally outside those items, with the exception of the gothic horror issue, where some dispute whether the designs are close enough to past CVs.
There is a little problem though: CV didn't had consistent theme in the past. Even recent games like DOS and POR very different in atmosphere from OOE and HOD. CV64 is very different from SOTN e.t.c.

Quote
This seems to be a barrier to you understanding the perspective of the "doesn't feel like CV" camp--noting the surface layer but not noting the differences in the details.
I personally couldn't understand how people could seriously consider something like DOS as a Castlevania game, but...well, to each its own.
Also, I hope your passage doesn't imply that people who don't consider LOS are somehow better than people who have no major problems with the game?  ;D
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on June 25, 2012, 10:46:58 AM
Quote from: Sumac on June 25, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
There is a little problem though: CV didn't had consistent theme in the past. Even recent games like DOS and POR very different in atmosphere from OOE and HOD. CV64 is very different from SOTN e.t.c.

That's atmosphere though, not necessarily whether the game feels like part of a series. Atmosphere is one item in a list of things that could influence someone towards feeling a game is CV or not, but even within the same series, each game will have a different atmosphere. That's the case even for games which still bear a lot of graphical or gameplay similarities. For example, Zelda: OoT has a very different atmosphere than Zelda: MM despite the fact that they both use the same base engine and there's a large amount of graphical model reuse. Yet both still feel like Zelda games, just with differing atmospheres.

Quote from: Sumac on June 25, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
I personally couldn't understand how people could seriously consider something like DOS as a Castlevania game, but...well, to each its own.

I don't think I've ever seen someone say DoS didn't feel like a CV game before this though. Lots of people take issue with the character design being anime-esque but I haven't really seen anyone else going to the point of saying it shouldn't be considered a CV.

Quote from: Sumac on June 25, 2012, 09:09:56 AM
Also, I hope your passage doesn't imply that people who don't consider LOS are somehow better than people who have no major problems with the game?  ;D

That's not really the case. I just noticed that in this particular instance, pimp dracula is noting a lot of surface similarities that might identify things such as genre or level structure, but just those aren't necessarily in depth enough to get to what's causing people to dispute whether LoS feels like a CV or not. I've seen people dispute it over the details and that seems to be where the real argument goes on. As I mentioned in the previous post, no one disputes rather obvious facts like LoS having a stage system, checkpoints and subweapons.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: GummiCandyful on June 25, 2012, 11:21:42 AM
Starting at chapter 4 was when the game truly felt Castlevania to me. Then around chapter 9 or so, the level designs from that point on were so meh at best, especially the Necromancer's Abyss. But I suppose since LoS is a pre-Dracula game/origin story, I am willing to bet that is why Cox and his team had some leeway with the levels and enemies.

And like everyone else, I was disappointed at the lack of classic tunes, though some of the original tracks were great. Either way, LoS was a solid and playable game despite my gripes with it. At least MoF seems like it is going to fix some of the issues LoS had, and hopefully LoS2 is doing the same.

To the OP, it's all a matter of perspective, and it really grinds my gears when people from either side of the camp make inflammatory comments, just because they don't agree with the other.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: CrashDiary27 on June 25, 2012, 02:00:06 PM
Quote from: GummiCandyful on June 25, 2012, 11:21:42 AM
Starting at chapter 4 was when the game truly felt Castlevania to me. Then around chapter 9 or so, the level designs from that point on were so meh at best, especially the Necromancer's Abyss. But I suppose since LoS is a pre-Dracula game/origin story, I am willing to bet that is why Cox and his team had some leeway with the levels and enemies.

And like everyone else, I was disappointed at the lack of classic tunes, though some of the original tracks were great. Either way, LoS was a solid and playable game despite my gripes with it. At least MoF seems like it is going to fix some of the issues LoS had, and hopefully LoS2 is doing the same.

To the OP, it's all a matter of perspective, and it really grinds my gears when people from either side of the camp make inflammatory comments, just because they don't agree with the other.

totally agree. It seems like nobody can play nice on forums these days. I think the game feels castlevania enough. Not so much at the start of the game. Either way you I look at it...CV or not...I thinks its a great game.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: flyingchai on June 25, 2012, 03:02:21 PM
Quote
totally agree. It seems like nobody can play nice on forums these days. I think the game feels castlevania enough.

Another thing that a lot just don't take into consideration is the idea that MS wanted to provide contrast between how things were pre-Dracula (LOS) and how much darker things got when Dracula came to be (MOF, LOS2).

Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: darkwzrd4 on June 25, 2012, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: flyingchai on June 25, 2012, 03:02:21 PM
Another thing that a lot just don't take into consideration is the idea that MS wanted to provide contrast between how things were pre-Dracula (LOS) and how much darker things got when Dracula came to be (MOF, LOS2).


Exactly.  They seem to want to believe that Dracula always existed.  The whole reason you aren't stuck in a castle the whole game is because the castle doesn't fit those other enemies.  The fact is that before Dracula came to power in that storyline, the big bad consisted of three powerful beings.  Each of which hated each other.  You can't really expect them to stay in the same region.  Plus, you can't expect a nation of werewolves to inhabit a castle like area.  No, a network of forests, ruins, and caves are more fitting. 

Now that Dracula has emerged in the timeline, it's more likely that the environments will be more like the old timeline when you are essentially stuck inside of Dracula's castle.  In other words, MoF and LoS2 will be more CV like for the haters of LoS1.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sumac on June 26, 2012, 09:11:16 AM
Quote
That's atmosphere though, not necessarily whether the game feels like part of a series.
I think I understand what do you mean. I have quite similar problem with DOS and partially with POR and AOS. However, LOS felt to me quite "Castlevaniash".

Quote
I don't think I've ever seen someone say DoS didn't feel like a CV game before this though.
Well, consider me being first. Though I've seen people that think the same thing. And they hate AOS too, something that I am partial about.
I, myself, doesn't consider DOS as offending as some people do with LOS. Series lasting for 20+ years simply and logically couldn't consist from games that could always satisfy me. It have something for everyone, I guess. It's a good thing and a bad thing, since some people take such thing very personal, and that lead to escalating arguments and hatred among fandom.

Quote
That's not really the case.
I know, I was joking. Though its quite hard to figure out, when some people being ironic in the internet.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on June 26, 2012, 09:16:58 AM
Well IMO AoS feels far more Castlevania-ish than DoS.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: beingthehero on June 26, 2012, 07:56:50 PM
AoS felt like normal Castlevania to me.

PoR often reminded me of Almana No Kiseki, for whatever reason:

Arumana no Kiseki - 01 - Intro & Stage 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPKf4-k-TDo#noexternalembed)

(everyone should play this game)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: e105beta on June 26, 2012, 10:22:34 PM
Quote from: Nagumo on June 25, 2012, 05:42:33 AM
The first two major areas of LoS remind me (positively) of Harry Potter for some reason.   :)

There was something kind of Harry Potter-y about the first two areas wasn't there? Hmm...

Quote from: Flame on June 26, 2012, 09:16:58 AM
Well IMO AoS feels far more Castlevania-ish than DoS.

Agreed. It's got darker feel to it. DoS seemed more like a hardcore Metroidvania ripoff than an actual Metroidvania.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Neobelmont on June 26, 2012, 10:41:28 PM
Quote from: Leirbag on June 24, 2012, 11:35:09 PM
The first castlevania hero was a rip-off of conan the barbarian who was named Belmondo in japan (like the french actor)
The 80's: He-man , conan the barbarian , simon belmont...
Don't jump to conclusions, i love those games.

Plus, metroidvanias are the spin-off here , Iga has to put a "X" in every japanese title if he wants to do whatever comes thu his mind. Switch to 5 minutes:
Game Center CX - Koji Igarashi Interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSZ8OhfDyDg#)


Ahh gamecenter cx love that show Arino-san played CvIII and kid dracula on that show  :)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Nagumo on June 27, 2012, 01:17:37 AM
"UFO's??? In Dracula??"

Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on June 27, 2012, 02:42:54 AM
Quote from: Charlotte-nyo:3 on June 25, 2012, 10:46:58 AM

I don't think I've ever seen someone say DoS didn't feel like a CV game before this though. Lots of people take issue with the character design being anime-esque but I haven't really seen anyone else going to the point of saying it shouldn't be considered a CV.

This is another issue that make me scratch my head. I don't hear people or atleast few people who are complaining about RoB being anime-esque. Worst, there are some people who praised RoB and ironically bashed both DoS and PoR. Double standards?
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on June 27, 2012, 03:27:41 AM
Quote from: Sumac on June 26, 2012, 09:11:16 AM
Well, consider me being first. Though I've seen people that think the same thing. And they hate AOS too, something that I am partial about.

Is it because of the plot, the characters, Soma not feeling right as a lead, the art style, the soul system, some combination of those or some other things that I'm missing?
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sumac on June 27, 2012, 06:53:53 AM
Quote
This is another issue that make me scratch my head. I don't hear people or atleast few people who are complaining about RoB being anime-esque. Worst, there are some people who praised RoB and ironically bashed both DoS and PoR. Double standards?
You talking about in-game graphics or the characters art?
Because on both accounts ROB was darker and its character art, while maybe not very unique, still had a bit more quality to it.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: uzo on June 27, 2012, 08:11:30 AM
Quote from: pimp dracula on June 27, 2012, 02:42:54 AM
This is another issue that make me scratch my head. I don't hear people or atleast few people who are complaining about RoB being anime-esque. Worst, there are some people who praised RoB and ironically bashed both DoS and PoR. Double standards?

No. Rondo didn't have this; (http://www.dimondsoft.com/hotlink/CharlotteAnimuAngry.gif)

Also Rondo had the benefit of being a great game.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Dominus on June 27, 2012, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: pimp dracula on June 27, 2012, 02:42:54 AM
This is another issue that make me scratch my head. I don't hear people or atleast few people who are complaining about RoB being anime-esque. Worst, there are some people who praised RoB and ironically bashed both DoS and PoR. Double standards?

I have, in fact I have said that I prefer PoR designs to RoB's, but yeah...

Quote from: uzo on June 27, 2012, 08:11:30 AM
No. Rondo didn't have this; (http://www.dimondsoft.com/hotlink/CharlotteAnimuAngry.gif)

Also Rondo had the benefit of being a great game.

This
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Super Waffle on June 27, 2012, 08:54:37 AM
But Rondo was the first animu game in the series.

What do you mean it didn't have animu?
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: uzo on June 27, 2012, 10:36:16 AM
I didn't say Rondo didnt have anime style. I said it didnt have that type of anime style that PoR had. (Which was very silly and unfitting.)

I could describe it in a long drawn out explanation but I'll let images speak for themselves.

(http://www.dimondsoft.com/hotlink/TrueCastlevaniaBadassInAnimeStyle.gif) VS (http://www.dimondsoft.com/hotlink/JonafagDerp.gif)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on June 27, 2012, 02:15:50 PM
It had a more serious anime style. And didnt let it affect the mood and tone of the game. It felt very cheap 90's anime- but GOOD cheap 90's anime. It was still dark in tone, and used the style to explain it's few animated cutscenes.

PoR is just cartoony. Saturday morning kids Anime cartoony. That CG/anime opening was just odd too. And it doesnt help that it's yet ANOTHER metroidvania, with all the old Rondo sprites, and a failed attempt at a Bloodlines sequel with an even worse plot and the loosest of connections to it's source. DoS is where things started to go a little south, but DoS still had good gameplay at least, since it was really just Aria 2.0. PoR is where the formula just got stale, and IGA's obsession with gimmick driven gameplay and "gameplay first story second" really shone through the worst.

Rondo was just your classic point A to B Belmont vs Dracula plot, with the added twists of animated cutscenes adding a bigger sense of narrative to the game, and alternate pathways and shortcuts, making the overall map feel much bigger and secret laden than previous games. It also was the first "new" game to have a redbook audio soundtrack, after Chronicles, which was just a CV1 remake.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: crisis on June 27, 2012, 02:17:35 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/c0mbat/lol-1.png)



>_<
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: VampirehunterB on June 27, 2012, 02:49:15 PM
just bring Ayami Kojima back on track and we won't be seeing these cheap, childish anime illustrations no more..
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on June 28, 2012, 07:20:00 AM
Quote from: uzo on June 27, 2012, 08:11:30 AM
No. Rondo didn't have this; (http://www.dimondsoft.com/hotlink/CharlotteAnimuAngry.gif)

Also Rondo had the benefit of being a great game.
That could be the case in PoR. But what about DoS? It have more serious look just like RoB.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on June 28, 2012, 07:21:30 AM
Quote from: Crisis on June 27, 2012, 02:17:35 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/c0mbat/lol-1.png)


 
>_<
Lmao. Imagine Dracula with that kind of expression. It will turn out to be a comedyvania.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on June 28, 2012, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: pimp dracula on June 28, 2012, 07:20:00 AM
That could be the case in PoR. But what about DoS? It have more serious look just like RoB.
DoS does have a more serious tone than PoR. DoS is just an issue of the Anime style they chose being of bad quality.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: A-Yty on June 28, 2012, 09:08:29 AM
Quote from: vampiroldurusucu on June 27, 2012, 02:49:15 PM
just bring Ayami Kojima back on track and we won't be seeing these cheap, childish anime illustrations no more..

Instead we  will see pretty faces that you can hardly tell apart. Also, awkward body proportions, as Pinhead Hector (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hd-Ptya0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) and Swan Neck Annette (http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/IsaCrisSparda/Castlevania/2007-11-08-78702.jpg) can surely testify.

That might sound harsh, but I don't see the point of sugarcoating it when obviously no one in Konami had the heart to tell her before publishing. However, I can assure you I'm a fan of her earlier work and new stuff (http://i.imgur.com/HUd8F.jpg) like this (http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Scans/DoS/dos-kojima2.jpg). But enough is enough. With other talents like Masaki Hirooka available, I don't see a reason to settle for what she mainly has to offer. CV doesn't have to stick to a single illustration style. She did good for games like SotN, but I can most certainly deal with not having her work on CV in the future.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on June 28, 2012, 11:29:33 AM
There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with Jose Luis Vaello's art. In fact, it's one of the LoS series' best points. He has a very stylized art that i wish we could see more of in the actual game aside fom character galleries and bestiaries and such.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Neobelmont on June 28, 2012, 12:01:00 PM
Quote from: Flame on June 28, 2012, 11:29:33 AM
There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with Jose Luis Vaello's art. In fact, it's one of the LoS series' best points. He has a very stylized art that i wish we could see more of in the actual game aside fom character galleries and bestiaries and such.

Like a cross over between the old and the new but why is it Gabriels hair is so long in the art work but short ingame  :P
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Dengo vlad tepes on June 28, 2012, 12:06:53 PM
we're still missing one thing , the tunes
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: crisis on June 28, 2012, 12:22:49 PM
Quote
Like a cross over between the old and the new but why is it Gabriels hair is so long in the art work but short ingame  :P

apparently no one in the industry likes to animate long hair
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: uzo on June 28, 2012, 12:35:09 PM
Quote from: pimp dracula on June 28, 2012, 07:20:00 AM
That could be the case in PoR. But what about DoS? It have more serious look just like RoB.

(http://www.dimondsoft.com/hotlink/DoSWasntCoolEither.gif)

NOPE


Quote from: Flame on June 28, 2012, 11:29:33 AM
There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with Jose Luis Vaello's art. In fact, it's one of the LoS series' best points. He has a very stylized art that i wish we could see more of in the actual game aside fom character galleries and bestiaries and such.

/\

Did this seriously get a -1? LoS had beautiful art, there is no denying it. Especially the environment pieces. I'm a fan of Ayami, but LoS sported excellent quality art.

+1 for you ol' buddy.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: beingthehero on June 28, 2012, 04:44:53 PM
Quote from: A-Yty on June 28, 2012, 09:08:29 AM
Also, awkward body proportions, as Pinhead Hector (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hd-Ptya0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

the best line in cartoon history (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc2_zYDuHC4#ws)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on June 29, 2012, 04:09:19 AM
Quote from: uzo on June 28, 2012, 12:35:09 PM
(http://www.dimondsoft.com/hotlink/DoSWasntCoolEither.gif)

NOPE

This looks serious to you then?

(http://mediabreach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/RondoMaria.jpg)

or this?

(http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters4/maria-renard3.gif)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: uzo on June 29, 2012, 05:04:15 AM
About as serious as a young girl would be perceived to be in 1993. Where Maria was created, to presumably attract the younger and female audiences, she was a wholly separate and contained mode to the game. In contrast to this, Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin gushed lame all over the game from top to bottom, offering no alternative mode or tone for the game that fans have come to expect.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: C Belmont on June 29, 2012, 05:08:33 AM
That's not even the best examples

Just go look at the official art at http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/multi/officialart.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/multi/officialart.htm)

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/offart/rob-offart19.jpg (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/offart/rob-offart19.jpg)
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/offart/rob-offart40.jpg (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/offart/rob-offart40.jpg)
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/offart/rob-offart30.jpg (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/offart/rob-offart30.jpg)
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/offart/rob-offart28.jpg (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/offart/rob-offart28.jpg)


You've got Richter chowing down on a massive piece of meat, Maria singing while her animals look on in horror and Richter playing the guitar
deadly serious stuff no silliness there



Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on June 29, 2012, 05:32:05 AM
Key word art. Artwork outside the game. Bonus content. The game itself is presented with relative seriousness.

And do remember that Classic Castlevania was not always so "serious". It was serious in tone, but was always sort of a tongue in cheek reference to classic horror movies and shit. Simon Belmont was a barbarian for petes sake. Cant quite consider that serious. Bloodlines is where it started to get SRS BSNS, and SoTN cemented that serious style, which continued till OoE. Although again, PoR was a total Joke, DoS with it's pitfalls of Hammer's love troubles was still more serious.

Rondo sort of does the same "this is a B movie" thing, and instead makes it "this is a cheap 90's action anime OVA"

Quote
You've got Richter chowing down on a massive piece of meat
because wallmeat in Castlevania is totally a serious thing right? It's been ridiculous since day 1.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Dominus Agony on June 29, 2012, 05:48:00 AM
lol @ the "picking and choosing" of "seriousness."
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: uzo on June 29, 2012, 06:05:17 AM
Has anyone noticed I haven't used the word serious once to gauge the worth of Castlevania art?
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: VladCT on June 29, 2012, 06:22:37 AM
Quote from: uzo on June 29, 2012, 06:05:17 AM
Has anyone noticed I haven't used the word serious once?
Quote from: uzo on June 29, 2012, 05:04:15 AM
About as serious as a young girl would be perceived to be in 1993.
Actually...
(Yeah, I might be missing the actual point here. LOL)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: uzo on June 29, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
Err, sorry. My mistake. I meant to say I haven't used the word serious in gauging the worth of the art in a Castlevania game.

You caught me there, haha.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: X on June 29, 2012, 11:44:10 AM
Actually I wouldn't mind at all seeing the old anime art style used in the Japanese port of CVII. It's still anime but it has that serious tone to it. Plus Simon looks almost like something you'd see out of Fist of the north Star. In my mind it would be refreshing. But I also liked OoE's art style. I would also like to see it come back again.

Quote
just bring Ayami Kojima back on track and we won't be seeing these cheap, childish anime illustrations no more..

As much as I love the artstyle; specifically the amount of intricate detail she puts into her illustrations, the whole prettyboy concept is getting very old and tiring, really fast. All the males look androgynous with little to no individuality. And of course the villain Issac comes off as a bit of a homo *COUGH*kisses-Trevor-on-the-cheek*COUGH* The women I've got no complaints about. They're beautiful. If Ayami Kojima were to come back the let her handle drawing the backgrounds and woman characters but let another artist do the guys.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sindra on June 29, 2012, 11:44:59 AM
Oh man, now we're scrutinizing the art of LoS against everything else in the series?

Lets ask ourselves this - name me a classic gaming franchise that has had consistent art across it's entire existence and hasn't had some questionable choices in style. There's a few of them, but there's a lot more that are the same as Castlevania. That's what happens when you get a series that's lasted 25+ years - not everything's going to stay the same. Trying different styles of design is not uncommon - look at Legend of Zelda. Whether it's a good choice or bad is a matter of opinion. (unless it's Judgment, which I'm fairly certain was universally panned as horrible character design-wise....so hey, agreement there!)

The artwork and character design choices of games are a bit more malleable than the music, in terms of what fans are able to tolerate when it comes to deviation. (I know I personally tend to be more critical of music deviations, oddly enough) I like Ayami Kojima's designs, but also liked Masaki Hirooka's design style and what Juan Antonio Alcázar and Jose Luis Vaello did for Lords of Shadow. Seeing how other's interpret characters in different perspectives is kind of a fun and interesting thing to see for me, honestly, with my being an artist.

Again...except Judgment. Obata should never have been allowed to touch something so different from what his normal element is, and therefore something that was never destined to mesh well.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sumac on June 29, 2012, 11:55:23 AM
When people will learn that vgmuseum doesn't allow hotlinking? Or at least will check their posts to see if links provided actually work as they should?

On the topic: whatever art artists made that wasn't included in the game, it doesn't have any impact on the atmosphere of the game itself.
And CV1 have this nice piece of art in the manual. (http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Scans/CV1/simonart.jpg)
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: X on June 29, 2012, 12:00:32 PM
Quote
Lets ask ourselves this - name me a classic gaming franchise that has had consistent art across it's entire existence and hasn't had some questionable choices in style.

I've got one for you Sindra - Dragon Quest.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Lucius J. Belmont on June 29, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
I was a bit disappointed with the generic anime-ness of PoR, but I'm completely baffled that RoB isn't getting the same response. Hearing Maria yell ~YATTA!~ makes me squirm every time, and I still growl 'Ore wa Richter Belmondo' to my roommate from time to time for hilarity's sake. Iiiiii don't think any of that was done 'tongue-in-cheek'. I think it's just horrifically dated anime style shoe-horned in to a Japanese franchise, completely unsurprising. Note how that could also have described PoR.

I like barbarian-belmont CVs, chiptunes, plots that don't involve high schoolers, but... I'm not gonna complain about Soma and weird time travelling eclipse plots, or crap about the crusades or WWI; I'll save my spleen ventage for Lords of Shadow being a God of War clone, if it is, which I find tiresome in every game. Basically, while I like some art styles or plot styles or music styles more than others, only gameplay can really make or break a CV for me, and I haven't messed with LoS enough yet to make the call. Enjoyable and at least slightly innovative gameplay is the only really consistent thing from the series, and that's what makes me grit my teeth and put up with the cringe-worthy things. If it has that, I'd say it's a Castlevania game.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: C Belmont on June 29, 2012, 05:54:15 PM
Quote
When people will learn that vgmuseum doesn't allow hotlinking? Or at least will check their posts to see if links provided actually work as they should?

sorry, I didn't even know what hotlinking was until I made that post & I assumed the images were just not showing for my IP address or something like that.In my defense it's not like there is a warning prominently displayed on the website that says no hotlinking allowed.

Quote
the topic: whatever art artists made that wasn't included in the game, it doesn't have any impact on the atmosphere of the game itself
So then all of Ayami Kojima's artwork save for a few mugshots contributed nothing toward the way you perceived the games she has done work for? and Iga was just wasting his time when he decided to change the image of castlevania by changing it's art style?
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: A-Yty on June 30, 2012, 07:34:27 AM
Quote from: X on June 29, 2012, 11:44:10 AM
And of course the villain Issac comes off as a bit of a homo *COUGH*kisses-Trevor-on-the-cheek*COUGH*

That was probably the least gay thing Isaac did. Kissing your enemy before defeating him is more like saying "fuck you, I win" instead of something sexual. Then again, Isaac being Isaac, he did it in a very gay way.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sumac on July 01, 2012, 12:00:03 PM
Quote
So then all of Ayami Kojima's artwork save for a few mugshots contributed nothing toward the way you perceived the games she has done work for? and Iga was just wasting his time when he decided to change the image of castlevania by changing it's art style?
Not really. Her art for this game consist mostly from full body portraits, which parts were used for the game. So there is not much difference, between seeing full body portrait or just a mugshot - the style is the same. So, in the end, the only art that counts is the one that was included in the game.

Second part of your question is some icomprehensible stuff, to say the least. There is enough to impact style of the game with mugshots and game cover. There is a reason why DOS and POR regarded as they are. And there are plenty of good additional art for the POR, that wasn't used in the game.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: thernz on July 01, 2012, 02:24:40 PM
Quote from: Sumac on June 29, 2012, 11:55:23 AM
When people will learn that vgmuseum doesn't allow hotlinking? Or at least will check their posts to see if links provided actually work as they should?

On the topic: whatever art artists made that wasn't included in the game, it doesn't have any impact on the atmosphere of the game itself.
And CV1 have this nice piece of art in the manual. (http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Scans/CV1/simonart.jpg)
Well, you know, there are a lot artists on the teams than just Ayami Kojima. There's all the concept artists like Vallejo who create art that the game's final graphics take inspiration from. Curse of Darkness has a large handful of art dedicated to the Innocent Devils and numerous background art-pieces that were featured in-game.

Plus, with lead illustrators like Kojima, the art of the game usually reflects that in trying to be consistent with what it evokes. Hence, the difference in atmosphere in games like Lament of Innocence and Portrait of Ruin. And it wasn't just because of mugshots.

Though honestly, with DS games, they tend to be pretty confused and mix up a ton of sprite styles anyway.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: TheouAegis on July 02, 2012, 09:41:27 AM
Backtracking was a staple of Megaman X.

Now Capcom is making Castlevania games too! ... Over a decade before LOS.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sumac on July 02, 2012, 11:24:17 AM
Quote
Curse of Darkness has a large handful of art dedicated to the Innocent Devils and numerous background art-pieces that were featured in-game.
Then, there are part of the game itself. Hence they directly influence the game.

Quote
There's all the concept artists like Vallejo who create art that the game's final graphics take inspiration from.
Than it doesn't matter.
The only thing matters that were included in the game itself. I don't see how random art, not related to the game, could influence on impressions from it.

For example, there is no need to be familliar with Valeggio art to see Simon Belmont as big barbarian guy in Castlevania 1. He maybe based on his art, but why does it matter? He is depicted as Conan-type guy and that's it. Knowing the inspiration doesn't change how he would be preceived in imagination of the player, instead of blocky brown sprite.

The same thing with Kojima's work in IGAvanias. Knowing her additional art for that game doesn't change level of appreciation of what was included in the game.

Quote
Plus, with lead illustrators like Kojima, the art of the game usually reflects that in trying to be consistent with what it evokes.
It's arguable, to say the least. While art for the Aria was in the same vein as her work for the SOTN and HOD the game itself was much more brighter, almost neon-cartoonish (but not as acidic as HOD).
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on July 02, 2012, 11:16:11 PM
Vallejo's art IS in game, as the character/bestiary/moves list/'relics' sections.

Also the loading screen narrations.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on July 03, 2012, 03:52:57 AM
Quote from: TheouAegis on July 02, 2012, 09:41:27 AM
Backtracking was a staple of Megaman X.

Now Capcom is making Castlevania games too! ... Over a decade before LOS.
Not saying Megaman X ripped castlevania since they are both released with only two months difference but....


Rondo of Blood - October 29, 1993 (JP)

Megaman X - December 17, 1993 (JP)

The sonic comparison is more valid than your megaman x arguement.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sumac on July 03, 2012, 01:15:04 PM
Quote
Vallejo's art IS in game, as the character/bestiary/moves list/'relics' sections.
I wasn't talking about LOS at all (if that was about LOS).
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: TheouAegis on July 03, 2012, 09:11:35 PM
You're suggesting Capcom ripped off Konami's ideas in less than 2 months and put out a hit game series? I know those guys program fast, but that's really bloody fast.

If it isn't a side-scroller and doesn't have platforming and whipping, it ain't CV. That's my feeling. I'm already torn on the later MMX games because of the 3D-ish routes they've taken, but at their core they're still side-scrollers. LOS has no feel of a side-scroller except when the camera angle is just so. Even when the camera is above or behind X it still feels like a side-scroller to me.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: pimp dracula on July 04, 2012, 05:09:12 AM
Like I said, I'm not saying that Megaman X ripped CV. Don't put your own words in my mouth. I was just killing your arguement that Megaman X came long ago before LoS. I said RoB came 2 months before X so your arguement is invalid.

I know it doesn't feel like your whipping, but it does have whip. And the platforming? They exist. What would you call Gabriel transporting from one platform to another? It doesn't have to be 2d sidescroller to be considered platformer. Ask Crash Bandicoot.

You can argue that those elements exist from other games not named CV. But the point is, these are the elements that are retained from some CV games.

Fact is games of the same genre borrow some elements from each other.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: NeoLiza on July 18, 2012, 06:39:56 PM
While it is true that LoS has a few similarities to the originals, I think you're forgetting an important element. "Look" and "Feel".

I was talking to a friend about why people didn't like Shadow the Hedgehog despite having similar gameplay to previous sonic games (branching paths and shortcuts as well as high speed gameplay) while loving Sonic Colors which had the same thing. Here

Quote
people ascribe to look and feel ALOT when it comes to games. People have it in their mind that Sonic is a very colorful series that wasn't so "edgy". When you saw Shadow with a gun, I doubt many people were like "OMG TIGHT!" EVERYONE (me included) were like "oh dear, they're destroying the franchise and turning it into GTA". So when you see Sonic Colors, you think it looks fine. Then you go for gameplay next. It's unfortunate, but after Guilty Gear, SF3, and maybe even Arcana heart, I doubt anyone would be looking forward to KOFXI or Neo Wave because s-it looks old. Look and feel is the first thing people look for. If it looks nice or like their ideal view of a series, they drive interest toward it. Colors is basically what people have in mind for a Sonic game. So then they look at gameplay. You see shadow with a gun, in a franchise that only had you curling up in a fetal position to whoop some ass, you are instantly turned off. The trailers didn't help with it's edgy music that gives the feeling that Sega is "trying to hard". So you have a game that, unlike several games in the series having this dark and moody atmosphere, you don't see it as a Sonic game. I mean, SA2 had more "realistic" worlds to explore, but they were still bright and colorful. You only get 3 levels like that in Shadow, and they aren't even that good. Is it any wonder why people talk about specs and graphics these days? We don't look at a woman's personality before thinking she's the "one". We need 1. pretty face. 2. fat deposited in all the right places. 3. isn't a gold digger. See, superficiality comes first before actual qualities, especially in a country that ENCOURAGES you to look for looks as a TOP priority before anything else. so when it comes to a franchise that always had a certain look and feel to it, you're not gonna win arguments with people that want Sonic a certain way.

See, newer installments will usually have similarities to previous titles in the series. That is a given. Bomberman Act Zero also has the same gameplay of the original bomberman games. No one can debate that.

But Look and Feel play a much bigger part as to why people cling to or become alienated from a game or sequel. See, what do Shadow and Act Zero have in common? Well, besides having common staples from their respective franchises and newer gameplay elements (guns and third-person maze bombing) they look almost NOTHING like their previous installments. They feel like something completely different. That's the point most people have made or tried to make.

Castlevania for the last decade has had this extremely gothic feel to it which enhanced the experience of the franchise up until Portrait of Ruin. This became the staple feel of the series, and not many franchises could match it. It was unique to Castlevania. No, the NES games didn't have that gothic feel. Infact, the classic games didn't really have a particular feel. You just race through a spooky haunted castle to kill demons and finally Dracula. But see, the monsters you fought in all the castlevania games were all varied and incredibly unique. Yeah, you have skeletons, werewolves, and in some games, typical vampires, but you also had Bone Pillars, Medusa heads, and Cycloptic eyes. There was a lot of creativity when it came to the designs of the enemies. The games had creepy levels and enemies as well as bosses, but the music gave it a distinct and upbeat feeling despite the creepy aesthetic. The series had it's own touch of flair and uniqueness when it comes to overall atmosphere.

With LoS, you don't really see that anymore. From the traditional fan's point of view, they see a game that feels like it's trying to be (yes) Lord of the Rings or some big hollywood production in direct competition with God of War. With it's "epic" orchestrated soundtrack, dynamic camera angles and environments that look like souped up movie sets from a film in the middle ages style of fantasy, the game presents itself as something different entirely. It looks like a hollywood production and feels like it's trying to hard to be as epic as possible. It takes itself far too seriously in comparison to other CV titles (yes, I know there are a few moments in LoS where they attempted, and failed at, comedy). Previous CV's (while not being outright comedic) knew when to kick back and deliver something quirky from time to time. Some of the enemies in the games couldn't be taken seriously if given the time of day anyway (waiter skeletons and peeping eyes come to mind) as well as (restating) the music which really came out as less spooky and more upbeat. While this was common for all NES games at the time, the teams have never let go of that music, even going so far as to enhance them and create even more catchy tunes. Castlevania's music was quite possibly the most unique, upbeat, and damned addictive songs for a game about killing strange demons. LoS's music is uninspired and tries to sell the whole experience as "epic" and "big budget" but just comes off as forced and obnoxious. Castlevania was never trying to be an epic franchise, and while the stories were becoming more developed over time, you never get the sense that they were going overboard. They were all so simple to understand. And by simple, I mean "even a preschool student could get it". LoS goes out of it's way to present it's story as.. well, "epic". The game is going for "epic" to the point of absurdity that it ignores almost everything about Castlevania. We can go on and name similarities for the sake of debating that it is in-fact a Castlevania game. But when it comes right down to it, no Castlevania fan can truly feel right at home with a title that barely resembles what they easily identified as a Castlevania game. It looks and feels nothing like Castlevania at all. Even though it is supposed to be an origins game (How Dracula came to be) even LoI did that and managed to keep that particular look and feel of the series, even if the game itself wasn't great.

Expecting people to just outright accept LoS as a Castlevania title because of vague similarities to previous installments is like saying people should accept a Diet Coke because it's named Coke. Or that Deadpool in X-Men Origins is the Deadpool from the comics because he has red clothing and 2 blades on his person. Saying that it's a Castlevania game to people who have lived a breathed almost 2 decades of a series that had a particular style and flair to it is, in a way, pretentious. This is also why most fans didn't warm up to POR despite being an Igavania title. The look and feel was incredibly childish. From the anime artwork to the dialogue, even to the bosses themselves feeling like cliches from saturday morning episodes (I cringed when fighting that boss in the pyramid where she mind-controls Jonathan and you have to play Charlotte just to get passed her). The majority of people don't think of that game as much of a CV title either.

Now, in no way am I implying that this makes LoS a BAD game. And frankly, this is probably the reason why LoS got all of this last minute love in the first place. I noticed this pattern where gamers viciously attack purists for deriding a game for not being like the older titles. That's understandable. A game shouldn't be judged on how well it compares to older titles or other games in the genre. But at the same time, the game itself is flawed in several areas that make it too appetizing to do so anyway. Bland environments and level-design, repetitive combat, unnecessary Quick-Time events that seem to only pad out some "stages" (personally I hate QTEs. They are a cancer), dull music, poor art design, tedious light/dark magic system (Satan fight in particular became a choir) etc. doesn't (at least, to me) warrant the game much of a strong defense against criticism.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Phil Belmont on July 18, 2012, 09:28:46 PM
Castlevania Lords of Shadow Return to the sources, if you do not believe me, take a look at these picture comparaison I made ;)

(click to show/hide)

And I could find a lot more examples....
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Ahasverus on July 19, 2012, 09:42:57 PM
Why the hell was the above post voted down? Jeez
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Neobelmont on July 19, 2012, 10:33:12 PM
Quote from: Phil Belmont on July 18, 2012, 09:28:46 PM
Castlevania Lords of Shadow Return to the sources, if you do not believe me, take a look at these picture comparaison I made ;)

(click to show/hide)

And I could find a lot more examples....

-4... no no no -3 now the old man , the old man looks like the old man damn. My mind is full of....

edit -2 now
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Sumac on July 26, 2012, 10:57:00 AM
First of, let me apologize for taken so long for responding, but I was busy with different stuff and I needed clear mind to wright my opinion.
Also, I believe, as always, my opinion will offend some people, but given how things are and how those people are, its inevitable and honestly I don't care about it. I hope those people will understand that it is my personal opinion and in no way I am attempting to pass it as "truth in the last instance" or something alike. Not that it helped in the past.
Ok, now, commencing beating of dead horse.
 
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Castlevania for the last decade has had this extremely gothic feel to it which enhanced the experience of the franchise up until Portrait of Ruin. This became the staple feel of the series, and not many franchises could match it. This became the staple feel of the series, and not many franchises could match it. It was unique to Castlevania. It was unique to Castlevania.
Sorry, but several things:
1) DOS has nothing to do with gothic style. It's pretty much as cartoonish as POR both in art and levels.
2) There were several games that haven't gothic style, that were released after SOTN: CV64 / LOD, COTM, Legends.
3) Gothic style was one of the styles, that series used throughout the years. And there are much more staples in the Castlevania than only style.

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No, the NES games didn't have that gothic feel. Infact, the classic games didn't really have a particular feel. You just race through a spooky haunted castle to kill demons and finally Dracula.

Wrong.
NES games, had its own style and atmosphere. Especially the first two entries, since the third one was more gameplay oriented. It is because of this Castlevania didn't become just "another of those 8 bit funny games". Besides, you saying it as if there weren't games between NES trilogy and SOTN, that it is not the case here. And those games were very atmospheric, SCV4 in particular. Lack of the gothic atmosphere doesn't mean that it is not have any atmosphere at all and that it is not a Castlevania game.

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But see, the monsters you fought in all the castlevania games were all varied and incredibly unique. Yeah, you have skeletons, werewolves, and in some games, typical vampires, but you also had Bone Pillars, Medusa heads, and Cycloptic eyes. There was a lot of creativity when it came to the designs of the enemies. The games had creepy levels and enemies as well as bosses, but the music gave it a distinct and upbeat feeling despite the creepy aesthetic. The series had it's own touch of flair and uniqueness when it comes to overall atmosphere.

First of, not all games have all those aspects intact. For example, most of the "metroidvanias" didn't featured creative and creepy levels. They maybe were visually beautiful (starting from AOS they've become looking pretty cartoonish), but in terms of the gameplay they were uterly casual and boring. In a way, creative levels were heavily featured pretty much only in classic games. The same goes for the music. I wouldn't call LOI or CV64 soundtracks "upbeat" for example. LOI's was mostly pompous, but far from usual "pam-pam-param".
While LOS had approached many of those things very differently, it managed to preserve some aspects of the series, mostly related to the classic games. Feeling and atmosphere. Levels are hard to compare, since it's a different dimension, but I think they were closer to the classic games.

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With LoS, you don't really see that anymore. From the traditional fan's point of view, they see a game that feels like it's trying to be (yes) Lord of the Rings or some big hollywood production in direct competition with God of War. With it's "epic" orchestrated soundtrack, dynamic camera angles and environments that look like souped up movie sets from a film in the middle ages style of fantasy, the game presents itself as something different entirely. It looks like a hollywood production and feels like it's trying to hard to be as epic as possible. It takes itself far too seriously in comparison to other CV titles (yes, I know there are a few moments in LoS where they attempted, and failed at, comedy).
I beg to differ.
As someone's said quite a time ago, LOS is essentially screen version of the Castlevania. Essetially Castlevania: The Movie. While, I am partially agree with this assesment I don't see this as something that have robed LOS of its Castlevania identity. It is a different approach to the series ideas and I don't see absolutely nothing wrong with it. On contrary, without a doubt, it is very useful to look at the familliar thing in the completely new light, as it the case here. As it was the case with SOTN for example, to a lesser degree. While I don't see LOS becoming a new Castlevania standard, just because of the cost of such big projects and overall whining controversy surrounding the titles, but in a sense it is very close to what SOTN once did. Took an established formula and warped it into something new.

As for seriousness, I think the series was never overly comedic (LOI in particular was quite dark) and I see LOS's take on Castlevania's mythos as a logical step forward. I was elated by it, since last games in the series like DOS, POR and Judgement turned series into something completely alien. DOS and POR became a cartoonish parody and completely butchered atmosphere of the series and Judgement made it into freak show. OOE amended this problems, but it was a bit too late. For me, seriousness is better, rather than comedic show.

Quote
Previous CV's (while not being outright comedic) knew when to kick back and deliver something quirky from time to time. Some of the enemies in the games couldn't be taken seriously if given the time of day anyway (waiter skeletons and peeping eyes come to mind) as well as (restating) the music which really came out as less spooky and more upbeat. While this was common for all NES games at the time, the teams have never let go of that music, even going so far as to enhance them and create even more catchy tunes. Castlevania's music was quite possibly the most unique, upbeat, and damned addictive songs for a game about killing strange demons.
Personally, funny enemies was one of the first things that I didn't like about last "metroidvanias". While the series had its fair share of qurky enemies, "metroidvanias" went into this territory too far, creating outright ridiculous monsters, that wasn't so much funny, but mostly stupid and out of place.

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LoS's music is uninspired and tries to sell the whole experience as "epic" and "big budget" but just comes off as forced and obnoxious. Castlevania was never trying to be an epic franchise, and while the stories were becoming more developed over time, you never get the sense that they were going overboard. They were all so simple to understand. And by simple, I mean "even a preschool student could get it".
I think LOS music was attuned to what the game wanted to be - epic, Holywood-like game. As for Castlevania never being epic. Well, before SOTN it never was a fullfleshed RPG with gothic atmosphere and before CV64 it never was 3D game which heavily on ambient atmosphere music. Everything happens for the first time, and seeing it only as negative thing is quite shorsighted, I believe. New developers has right to change the series as they see fit, even if some people will be against it. And as Mercury Steam presented it, they changed things, because they had a clear idea what they want to do with their Castlevanias. I respect that and believe they have right to do so.

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LoS goes out of it's way to present it's story as.. well, "epic". The game is going for "epic" to the point of absurdity that it ignores almost everything about Castlevania. We can go on and name similarities for the sake of debating that it is in-fact a Castlevania game. But when it comes right down to it, no Castlevania fan can truly feel right at home with a title that barely resembles what they easily identified as a Castlevania game. It looks and feels nothing like Castlevania at all. Even though it is supposed to be an origins game (How Dracula came to be) even LoI did that and managed to keep that particular look and feel of the series, even if the game itself wasn't great.
I felt home with LOS, even though I played almost every single game in the series. While not everywhere, the game certainly felt like a Castlevania game to me in many regards. What I presume to be a core basis of the series, was present in Lords more than in AOS, DOS or POR, IMO. Maybe I am wrong fan, who knows...

As for the stories...well, I wouldn't say that previous Castlevania games didn't try to have elaborated stories. They did it more than ones, especially during IGA's tenure over series. However, they felt simple because IGA, while having his own strong points, is an atrocious storyteller, who created even more plotholes while trying to connect and clear his own vision of timeline. So, it's no wonder that LOS could come across as alien in regards of storyline, since it is the first conscious attempt to create a detailed and truly elaborated story for the Castlevania game without stepping on its own toes and butchering pre-established continuty. I don't see this attempt as a bad thing either. Castlevania deserved such attempt afterall.

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Expecting people to just outright accept LoS as a Castlevania title because of vague similarities to previous installments is like saying people should accept a Diet Coke because it's named Coke.
While I understand reaction of some fans, as I said before, for me LOS felt like a Castlevania game and I don't see nothing wrong with people naturally accepting it as a Castlevania title. I have more questions while people think about DOS and POR like a more Castlevania games rather than LOS. They have a lot of superficial similarities to the previous titles, but in the end don't feel like Castlevania titles mostly.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: joethebro34 on October 21, 2012, 09:39:47 PM
I'm 34 years old and have been playing various Castlevania games since The original Castlevania on the NES. I've played and beat Castlevania(hard), Simon's Quest(hard in a different way), CV3(very hard), SCV4(not that hard), CV64 and Legacy of Darkness(average games and sometimes hard), Curse of Darkness(hard if you are trying for 100%), and LOS(pretty hard). As a seasoned and somewhat obsessed Castlevania fan I don't know where all of the hate for LOS comes from. I think it is completely bad a$$!. Great graphics, great music, and the combat gets progressively more intricate as the game goes on. I admit they snatched the Titan battles from SOC, but they sure as hell didn't do a bad job of it. The combat strategies to be employed are much more complex than GOW's and the game is about 4 times longer too. I guess you can tell I am a LOS fan, but I am ultimately a Castlevania fan in general.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Inccubus on October 21, 2012, 11:28:19 PM
I'm also 34 and have been playing the series since the beginning as well. On the other hand, I find that LoS does little to try and keep the look and feel of the series it is supposed to be a part of. The music is obnoxiously "Hollywood" and completely forgettable. I found the game play to be repetitive and boring because of the increasing complexity of the combat system that makes dispatching enemies a chore. The same complexity that makes fighting a chore also serves to degrade the usefulness of the subweapons in a way not dissimilar to SCV4. It's just trying way too hard to compete with GoW and that comes off as the game simply ripping off a combat system that is perceived to be generally popular. The same goes for the Titan battles which are little more than a shadow of what they were in SotC. All of this is further compounded by the inclusion of all the wall-shimmying. Not only does it force a comparison with PoP, but it is badly executed as well. Do players really need to be shown every single ledge that can be shimmyied on? While I get the idea of this being the fairytale that set's up a new Castlevania universe, it didn't have to look so literally like a fairytale. In the end the game get's a lot of flack for not seeming much like a CV game because of all the things it tries to implement from other established series while only superficially including marginal things that are meant to appease fans but really just ticks many of us off that much more for doing things in a manner that seems half-assed. By no means is LoS a bad game, but it falls far short of living up to the legacy of the previous games which it owes some of it's success to simply by having the Castlevania moniker in it's title.
Title: Re: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing
Post by: Flame on October 21, 2012, 11:46:49 PM
Oh goody this topic is back.

I'm 21, have played since- well I dont remember what the latest game was when I started playing, but ive played most of the games, and I found that LoS was trying very much to have 3 distinct flavors for each of the 3 titular Lords. It's problem, is it starts with the tolkienesque forest and ruins one, which happens to take place largely in daytime, and is one of the more featured areas of the game in demos and trailers and such. And so many people are disillusioned with their non-gothic imagery and scenery, no matter how nice it looks or typical "ancient ruins in a castlevania game" it looks, until they reach the second area, which is more in line with that And after that, the third act is more abstract "hell" like in visage. Which is fine, a few CV games have gone that route, most notably DoS which literally, went to hell for the final area. (pentagram map formation no less!) The music is epic movielike, and thats fine with me, The game is beautifully cinematic, but a problem I can admit is the reusing of tracks as ambiance, rather than area specific. It gets repetitive after a while. But I cant really dock too many points for that.
Combat was fine to me, much more fluid and responsive than Leon was, and much more versatile than CV64. some moves were direct either copies from LoI, or from other moves or concepts, like the circular chain, or the holy cross, etc etc, one could go on with similarities but thats not the point.

I didnt mind the titans since there were only 3 in all, and not too badly spaced, with the last one being pretty memorable in particular. levels could have been a bit less restrictive, ("let me jump down, dont force me to climb down." or "What do you mean I cant jump over this chunk of ruins?")

overall, I liked LoS, though i suppose I can see some of the issues some people have with it, particularly since castlevania is defined by different things for different people.