Topic: I don't get the "LoS isn't a CV game" thing

[pimp dracula]

And people already stated their oppinions on why they don't think LoS is CV enough for them. So, what's the point of this topic?

Like I said, I was just trying to post what I saw in the game. That's the point.

Perhaps you saw it differently since we have different opinion.

[Kingshango]

 Now without going into a giant wall O text I'll just say it was the overall tone of the game that made people feel like it's not a Castlevania game, especially if they were brought up on the Metroidvania's in the IGA era, then BOOM reboot out of nowhere with a God of War looking game with hollywood movie music. I agree that the namedrops felt forced with Olrox and Brauner being the prime offenders, however I thought Carmilla and Laura were ok. Like everyone else, it felt like Castlevania when I got to chapter 4 but then it goes off on it's again during chapter 9/12 (if you wanna count the DLC then it comes back, somewhat).

With all that said, I think the sequel's look more like Castlevania compaired to Lords of Shadow 1, music and gameplay aside though. However I do need to see gameplay of Lords of Shadow 2.

[Flame]

Well at least we know that MS did that on purpose. They wanted the pre dracula world to feel different.

[Leirbag]

LoS = Lord of the Rings spinoff with Castlevania title thrown on during the finishing touches of the game. Also random character names from the old game and fairy subweapon. lolololololol

The first castlevania hero was a rip-off of conan the barbarian who was named Belmondo in japan (like the french actor)
The 80's: He-man , conan the barbarian , simon belmont...
Don't jump to conclusions, i love those games.

Plus, metroidvanias are the spin-off here , Iga has to put a "X" in every japanese title if he wants to do whatever comes thu his mind. Switch to 5 minutes:
Game Center CX - Koji Igarashi Interview

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

This topic may be old but here is my take.

Many people were saying that LoS should not be a CV title since it doesn't resemble any CV element except for the fact that the MC is a Belmont. That's not true. Yes, many elements are new on the series, but it still feels like a CV game to me. Here's why:

The Stage System
Older Castlevania (Classicvanias) are played with simplicity. Just whoop some baddies, reach the finish line and beat the boss. This game have the same formula. Beat the stage to proceed to the next one.

Stage checkpoint
Another element from Classicvanias. You restart from the last checkpoint if you ever fail the level by either getting fall from a pit (in this case you only take damage) or simply get beat up by baddies.

Subweapons
This element never left any CV title and LoS is not an exception. You get to use things like dagger and holy water. Maybe some hack n slash games have this feature but I think it's still different. Look at DMC. He use guns as subweapons and we never see this thing on a CV game as a subweapon.

Platforming
Who said LoS was just a pure hack n slash game without any substance? You need to jump to some platforms to reach certain areas. This were not much on a factor on the previous CV games but you will see Gabriel swinging with his chain just like Simon on CV4.
 
Backtracking
A feature started in Simon's Quest. Unlike CV2 or any Metroidvanias, you don't  return in some level because you can't reach some areas of it but rather you have to master it to obtain some power-ups. Like Rondo, you will find some areas for an alternate route. In LoS case, this means new moves for Gabe.

The Gothic Horror theme
You will see enemies like werewolf, vampires, demons and stuff. That's what Castlevania is about. Unless you prefer the anime themed one (Legends, RoB, DoS and PoR). This is a standard element for a CV game.

Generally I doubt you'd get much disagreement on the idea that some CV games in the past have had some of the individual bullet points, but where you'd get disagreement is on whether some of them are necessary or relevant to something feeling like CV. People's complaints are generally outside those items, with the exception of the gothic horror issue, where some dispute whether the designs are close enough to past CVs.

The fact that some of the earliest classicvanias had no backtracking points it out as unnecessary.

The fact that Metroidvanias can feel like CV games without really possessing a stage system, a checkpoint system, or subweapons (some didn't have subweapons, some did) is sort of a testament to the fact that those aren't really necessary either.

That leaves platforming and gothic horror. This means four of those things LoS borrowed that you listed are not really necessary for something to feel like CV.

It also isn't that the stuff you listed doesn't exist, but the reasons why it doesn't "feel right" to people tend to be in the details and the execution, like divorcing a lot of the platforming segments from the combat (a smart move for not making them frustrating in 3D, but a bad move for trying to mimic the feel of a 2D platformer), making a lot of the platforming wall-scaling (which adds believability but takes away from it feeling like the type of platforming of 2D games which doesn't usually mesh with realistic environment design), using a combat system that doesn't even try be like 2D combat, and introducing new elements that some feel are "foreign" to past CV canon--like Pan, "the old gods," etc.

It's not disputed that LoS has stages or platforming or that it borrows elements from past CVs, but rather people's grievances are rather different. Some don't like that the gameplay doesn't feel like the older 2D games (and how can it? It's 3D combat and 3D platforming, which are going to be different from 2D combat and 2D platforming, almost no matter how you do it, and sometimes radically different depending on how you do it.) Some don't like that the world and monster design feels more traditional fantasy-esque than typically was the case. Some don't like that the music was changed to a more "movie-like" orchestral tone. Some don't like the fact that Dracula is in his nascent form rather than his complete form (which couldn't really be helped given the overall storyline placement of the game). Some don't like a combination of all of those or other things yet unmentioned.

Characters
There are some returning characters from previous games like Conell and Camilla.

Those aren't really returning characters (in an alternate timeline, no characters can really be returning ones), just reused names for totally different characters. Brauner (which you didn't mention) and Cornell especially. They almost couldn't be more dissimilar from the characters they're referencing--they probably would've been better off with different names. Camilla, however, might be close enough that it isn't a problem with her having that name--at least I haven't seen any complaints about it like I have with Cornell and Brauner. This seems to be a barrier to you understanding the perspective of the "doesn't feel like CV" camp--noting the surface layer but not noting the differences in the details.

Being able to play a Belmont with a whip is CV-isque enough for me.

I assume you mean as far as characters rather than overall, to which I'd say not even that is required--there are plenty of CVs now where you don't play as a Belmont. Giving a character the name Belmont and making a whip his main weapon is an easy and concrete measure. In contrast, making one game feel like another with required dimensional (3D vs 2D) and representational differences (high-poly models vs sprites), that enters the realm of the intangible. That's hard.

[A-Yty]

I don't get you not getting it.

[Nagumo]

The first two major areas of LoS remind me (positively) of Harry Potter for some reason.   

[Sumac]

People's complaints are generally outside those items, with the exception of the gothic horror issue, where some dispute whether the designs are close enough to past CVs.

There is a little problem though: CV didn't had consistent theme in the past. Even recent games like DOS and POR very different in atmosphere from OOE and HOD. CV64 is very different from SOTN e.t.c.

This seems to be a barrier to you understanding the perspective of the "doesn't feel like CV" camp--noting the surface layer but not noting the differences in the details.

I personally couldn't understand how people could seriously consider something like DOS as a Castlevania game, but...well, to each its own.
Also, I hope your passage doesn't imply that people who don't consider LOS are somehow better than people who have no major problems with the game? 

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

There is a little problem though: CV didn't had consistent theme in the past. Even recent games like DOS and POR very different in atmosphere from OOE and HOD. CV64 is very different from SOTN e.t.c.

That's atmosphere though, not necessarily whether the game feels like part of a series. Atmosphere is one item in a list of things that could influence someone towards feeling a game is CV or not, but even within the same series, each game will have a different atmosphere. That's the case even for games which still bear a lot of graphical or gameplay similarities. For example, Zelda: OoT has a very different atmosphere than Zelda: MM despite the fact that they both use the same base engine and there's a large amount of graphical model reuse. Yet both still feel like Zelda games, just with differing atmospheres.

I personally couldn't understand how people could seriously consider something like DOS as a Castlevania game, but...well, to each its own.

I don't think I've ever seen someone say DoS didn't feel like a CV game before this though. Lots of people take issue with the character design being anime-esque but I haven't really seen anyone else going to the point of saying it shouldn't be considered a CV.

Also, I hope your passage doesn't imply that people who don't consider LOS are somehow better than people who have no major problems with the game? 

That's not really the case. I just noticed that in this particular instance, pimp dracula is noting a lot of surface similarities that might identify things such as genre or level structure, but just those aren't necessarily in depth enough to get to what's causing people to dispute whether LoS feels like a CV or not. I've seen people dispute it over the details and that seems to be where the real argument goes on. As I mentioned in the previous post, no one disputes rather obvious facts like LoS having a stage system, checkpoints and subweapons.

[GummiCandyful]

Starting at chapter 4 was when the game truly felt Castlevania to me. Then around chapter 9 or so, the level designs from that point on were so meh at best, especially the Necromancer's Abyss. But I suppose since LoS is a pre-Dracula game/origin story, I am willing to bet that is why Cox and his team had some leeway with the levels and enemies.

And like everyone else, I was disappointed at the lack of classic tunes, though some of the original tracks were great. Either way, LoS was a solid and playable game despite my gripes with it. At least MoF seems like it is going to fix some of the issues LoS had, and hopefully LoS2 is doing the same.

To the OP, it's all a matter of perspective, and it really grinds my gears when people from either side of the camp make inflammatory comments, just because they don't agree with the other.

[CrashDiary27]

Starting at chapter 4 was when the game truly felt Castlevania to me. Then around chapter 9 or so, the level designs from that point on were so meh at best, especially the Necromancer's Abyss. But I suppose since LoS is a pre-Dracula game/origin story, I am willing to bet that is why Cox and his team had some leeway with the levels and enemies.

And like everyone else, I was disappointed at the lack of classic tunes, though some of the original tracks were great. Either way, LoS was a solid and playable game despite my gripes with it. At least MoF seems like it is going to fix some of the issues LoS had, and hopefully LoS2 is doing the same.

To the OP, it's all a matter of perspective, and it really grinds my gears when people from either side of the camp make inflammatory comments, just because they don't agree with the other.

totally agree. It seems like nobody can play nice on forums these days. I think the game feels castlevania enough. Not so much at the start of the game. Either way you I look at it...CV or not...I thinks its a great game.

[flyingchai]

totally agree. It seems like nobody can play nice on forums these days. I think the game feels castlevania enough.

Another thing that a lot just don't take into consideration is the idea that MS wanted to provide contrast between how things were pre-Dracula (LOS) and how much darker things got when Dracula came to be (MOF, LOS2).

[darkwzrd4]

Another thing that a lot just don't take into consideration is the idea that MS wanted to provide contrast between how things were pre-Dracula (LOS) and how much darker things got when Dracula came to be (MOF, LOS2).

Exactly.  They seem to want to believe that Dracula always existed.  The whole reason you aren't stuck in a castle the whole game is because the castle doesn't fit those other enemies.  The fact is that before Dracula came to power in that storyline, the big bad consisted of three powerful beings.  Each of which hated each other.  You can't really expect them to stay in the same region.  Plus, you can't expect a nation of werewolves to inhabit a castle like area.  No, a network of forests, ruins, and caves are more fitting. 

Now that Dracula has emerged in the timeline, it's more likely that the environments will be more like the old timeline when you are essentially stuck inside of Dracula's castle.  In other words, MoF and LoS2 will be more CV like for the haters of LoS1.

[Sumac]

That's atmosphere though, not necessarily whether the game feels like part of a series.

I think I understand what do you mean. I have quite similar problem with DOS and partially with POR and AOS. However, LOS felt to me quite "Castlevaniash".

I don't think I've ever seen someone say DoS didn't feel like a CV game before this though.

Well, consider me being first. Though I've seen people that think the same thing. And they hate AOS too, something that I am partial about.
I, myself, doesn't consider DOS as offending as some people do with LOS. Series lasting for 20+ years simply and logically couldn't consist from games that could always satisfy me. It have something for everyone, I guess. It's a good thing and a bad thing, since some people take such thing very personal, and that lead to escalating arguments and hatred among fandom.

That's not really the case.

I know, I was joking. Though its quite hard to figure out, when some people being ironic in the internet.

[Flame]

Well IMO AoS feels far more Castlevania-ish than DoS.