Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: cecil-kain on June 03, 2013, 12:34:51 PM
-
Recently I've been doing lots of research on Castlevania's retail sales to map 2-D and 3-D sales trends, but I got a bit sidetracked by some of Cox's recent publicity to write the following report. I know some of you don't like vgchartz, which is fine. If any of you have some more reliable data, step right up and I'll make corrections.
Originally posted on the Facebook Page 5/29/13
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=602388843114211&set=a.244050952281337.66406.243488722337560 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=602388843114211&set=a.244050952281337.66406.243488722337560)
Operation: Akumajo presents
A special report on Castlevania sales
“Dave Cox Busted”
While Castlevania fans await the news of Lords of Shadow 2, it's time to expose a few myths about the previous game. Over the last couple years, Konami Producer Dave Cox has proudly proclaimed Castlevania Lords of Shadow the best selling Castlevania game of all time, and himself the visionary savior of our beloved series. In this report, we intend to challenge the hype.
Far be it from us to begrudge good fortune. We will give credit where credit is due. Vgchartz is currently reporting that Lords of Shadow sold 1.3 Million copies globally --this includes 790,000 for the Playstation 3 and an additional 510,000 for the Xbox 360. Congratulations Mr Cox.
Before dissecting the sales data, let’s take just a moment to overstate the obvious. Sales alone do not necessarily indicate success. Konami doesn’t publish information on their games’ budgets or revenues, therefore we shouldn’t make any assumptions about profits or margins. When Mr Cox boasts of his success, he is specifically stating that Lords of Shadow’s sales have revitalized the Castlevania brand --and that is exactly what we intend to challenge in this report. Shall we begin?
Castlevania Symphony of the Night is the gold standard by which all other Castlevanias are measured. Critics and fans alike have hailed it not only the best Castlevania, but also one of the best video games of all time. Just compare Symphony of the Night’s Metacritic and Gamerankings scores to Lords of Shadow, and there can be no doubt which video game has the superior reputation.
Game Review Scores
-----------------------------------
Symphony on the Night
Metacritic 93/100 Gamerankings 93.03%
Lords of Shadow
Metacritic 85/100 Gamerankings 85.03%
-----------------------------------
Now let's get to the sales...
According to Vgchartz, Symphony of the Night sold 1.27 Million copies globally for the Playstaion 1. This easily beats Lords of Shadow’s individual sales on both the Playstation 3 (790,000 copies) and the Xbox 360 (510,000 copies) --unfortunately it doesn’t beat the total cross-platform sales (1.3 Million copies). But if we’re going to look at Lords of Shadow’s sales collectively, then let’s give Symphony of the Night exactly the same treatment.
As many of you already know...
Castlevania Symphony of the Night has been ported several times since the original Playstation 1 release. Hard copy ports include Akumajō Dracula X: Gekka no Yasōkyoku for the Sega Saturn, the Dracula X Chronicles for the Playstation Portable, and Konami Classics Vol 1 for the Xbox 360. Additional digital ports have also been released for the Playstation Network (PS3/PSP/Vita) and Xbox Live Arcade.
Unfortunately, half of these ports have not had their sales published, so it’s impossible to make a decisive statement on Symphony of the Night’s lifetime global sales without more complete data. Fortunately we have just enough information to settle this contest. According to Vgchartz, the Dracula X Chronicles for the Playstation Portable sold 370,000 copies globally (not including its digital sales over the Playstation Network) and the Konami Classics Vol 1 sold an additional 50,000 copies in its exclusive US release. This brings Symphony of the Night’s collective lifetime global sales to an incomplete total of 1.69 Million copies. It’s comparison time...
Lifetime Global Sales
-----------------------------------
Symphony of the Night 1.69 Million copies
(not including PSN, XBLA, or Saturn ports)
Lords of Shadow 1.3 Million copies
-----------------------------------
We hereby challenge Mr Cox to release a full and accurate report detailing Symphony of the Night’s lifetime global sales --including all of the ports mentioned above. Furthermore, we also challenge him to prove his boastful assertions that Lords of Shadow is indeed the best-selling Castlevania game of all time.
But let’s pretend for a moment that ports don’t matter. Let’s pretend that Lords of Shadow *is* the best selling Castlevania of all time. There is still the critical matter of increasing market-share, and revitalizing the Castlevania brand in the hearts and minds of modern mainstream gamers. Let’s talk about that.
Accdoring to Vgchartz, Symphony of the Night ranks 139th best-selling game on the Playstation 1. Meanwhile Lords of Shadow currently ranks 228th best selling game on the Playstation 3, and 341st best selling game for the Xbox 360. But this could be misleading depending on the quality of the competition. Market penetration is a far better measure of growing the Castlevania brand, so let’s go back and carefully reconsider Castlevania’s performance in the context of hardware sales.
According to Vgchartz, Sony sold 104.25 Million Playstation 1 consoles globally. Therefore, if Symphony of the Night sold 1.27 Million copies for Playstation 1, then the market penetration was about 1.21%. In other words, about 1.21% of Playstation 1 owners purchased Symphony of the Night.
According to Vgchartz, Sony has now sold 77.33 Million Playstation 3 consoles globally. Therefore, if Lords of Shadow sold 790,000 copies for Playstation 3, then the market penetration is about 1.02%.
According to Vgchartz, Microsoft has sold 77.31 Million Xbox 360 consoles globally. Therefore, if Lords of Shadow sold 510,000 copies for the Xbox 360, then the market penetration is about 0.65%.
The Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 have collectively sold a combined 154.64 Million consoles globally, but Castlevania Lords of Shadow has only sold 1.3 Million copies for those consoles. That’s a total market penetration of only 0.84%!
And for quick review...
Total Market Penetration
-----------------------------------
Symphony of the Night (PS1) --1.21%
Lords of Shadow (PS3) --1.02%
Lords of Shadow (XB360) --0.65%
Lords of Shadow (PS3 + XB360) --0.84%
-----------------------------------
Let's sum this up...
Either Mr Cox is delusional or he’s a charlatan. More than 99% of modern home console owners have passed over his Castlevania reboot. Lords of Shadow has failed to significantly grow the brand and Castlevania remains a cult game series. While the game industry has grown by tens of Millions since the Playstation 1, Mr Cox is celebrating a marginal 1.3 Million sales as if he's made Castlevania relevant to over 27 Million gamers that would rather play Call of Duty instead. Thus his interest in rebooting Contra, but that's another story...
Very soon we're expecting Mr Cox to begin hyping Lords of Shadow 2 against the roaring thunder of a next generation console war. He may not need support from Akumajo fans, but he does need the mature mainstream that bought the original Lords of Shadow. Unfortunately, the Playstation 4 and Xbox One will dominate this year's E3 news and distract the mainstream audience. Since neither of these systems will have the backward compatibility to support Lords of Shadow 2, mainstream gamers may begin saving up for powerful next generation hardware, instead of wasting their money on current generation software. Without the steadfast loyalty of a united Castlevania fanbase, Mr Cox may soon find himself at the mercy of rapidly declining Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 markets.
It’s time for a certain Producer to eat some humble pie. Best of luck Mr Cox.
-----Sources-----
-----Game Review Scores-----
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation/castlevania-symphony-of-the-night (http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation/castlevania-symphony-of-the-night)
http://www.gamerankings.com/ps/196885-castlevania-symphony-of-the-night/index.html (http://www.gamerankings.com/ps/196885-castlevania-symphony-of-the-night/index.html)
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/castlevania-lords-of-shadow (http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/castlevania-lords-of-shadow)
http://www.gamerankings.com/ps3/952494-castlevania-lords-of-shadow/index.html (http://www.gamerankings.com/ps3/952494-castlevania-lords-of-shadow/index.html)
-----Castlevania Sales------
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/)
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/327/castlevania-symphony-of-the-night/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/327/castlevania-symphony-of-the-night/)
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/12623/castlevania-the-dracula-x-chronicles/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/12623/castlevania-the-dracula-x-chronicles/)
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41559/konami-classics-vol-1/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41559/konami-classics-vol-1/)
-----Call of Duty Sales-----
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/44605/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-3/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/44605/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-3/)
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/44606/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-3/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/44606/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-3/)
-----Console Sales-----
http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/)
-----Best Selling Games by Console-----
http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/5/playstation/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/5/playstation/)
http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/3/playstation-3/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/3/playstation-3/)
http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/7/xbox-360/ (http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/7/xbox-360/)
-
Is it so incredible for a man producing/selling a product to distord a bit the reality?
I'm not going to debate on anything with any of you, who have very strong opinions and points of view, but without him, CV would be dead and burried by now. I'm not trying to defend him, just my 2 cents.
There's no need for another Cox/IGA, modern/traditional CV, etc. debate(s).
-
Isn't vgchartz know for fabricating (or guessing) sales numbers?
-
In its own original release time, Symphony did not sell as many copies as LoS in its current release time time. I don't think it's fair to include sales of Dracula X Chronicles, since it is not exclusively Symphony of the Night for PSP. Lots of people bought it just to play Rondo of Blood. It's unfair to say that the sales are based on Symphony being unlockable. Also, it is entirely out of the era of the PS1. However, Many people sold/lost/destroyed/tossed their old PS1 copies of SotN, so repurchases via Xbox and PS3 digital sales or the Konami Collection are not representative of how well SotN is currently revitalizing the series. If you want to include sales in which SotN isn't even the only title in the collection, MANY MANY years after initial release, it should be considered as a separate release. Most people don't have their original copies of SotN anymore, so sales because of SotN don't necessarily reflect new gamers who haven't played it before, and therefore a new impact.
Taken in their own times, LoS wins, sales-wise. Given the other statistics you've brought up though, LoS has had significantly less of an impact than SotN relative to the industry as a whole. Still, Castlevania sales were really suffering up until LoS's release, so LoS has revitalized the series to a pretty fair extent.
So what I'm saying is that, sure, LoS is relatively less significant in its own time than SotN in its time relative to the gaming community as a whole, but LoS HAS sold much better than other Castlevanias of late, revitalizing the series sales-wise from its until-recent decline. Cox is also not lying when he says that LoS has sold more copies than any other Castlevania, at least in its own time.
I really don't think he's being as sinister as you think he is. I think he saw the statistics for sales, and thought "Hey, look at that! We're really making a difference for the series!" and is proud of that.
-
Vgchartz
stopped reading there
I know some of you don't like vgchartz, which is fine. If any of you have some more reliable data, step right up and I'll make corrections.
We shouldn't need to correct you. You shouldn't be using VGchartz. Can't find sales numbers? that means Konami didn't release them. Don't go using made up "estimates". Either go full on professional and call em for it, or don't. You can't make a sales comparison report when you can't get accurate sales information. Cox can. Because he works for Konami and is privy to that kind of info.
-
Sorry Cecil-Kain... but this post is propaganda in action.
I understand the shock and awe of the post (and I read it on Facebook before), but without accurate data, it's really your word against his.
VGChartz's credibility has been often questioned, so it's not a very good arrow in your quiver, and you're using that arrow a lot in this post.
-
In its own original release time, Symphony did not sell as many copies as LoS in its current release time time. I don't think it's fair to include sales of Dracula X Chronicles, since it is not exclusively Symphony of the Night for PSP. Lots of people bought it just to play Rondo of Blood. It's unfair to say that the sales are based on Symphony being unlockable. Also, it is entirely out of the era of the PS1. However, Many people sold/lost/destroyed/tossed their old PS1 copies of SotN, so repurchases via Xbox and PS3 digital sales or the Konami Collection are not representative of how well SotN is currently revitalizing the series. If you want to include sales in which SotN isn't even the only title in the collection, MANY MANY years after initial release, it should be considered as a separate release. Most people don't have their original copies of SotN anymore, so sales because of SotN don't necessarily reflect new gamers who haven't played it before, and therefore a new impact.
Taken in their own times, LoS wins, sales-wise. Given the other statistics you've brought up though, LoS has had significantly less of an impact than SotN relative to the industry as a whole. Still, Castlevania sales were really suffering up until LoS's release, so LoS has revitalized the series to a pretty fair extent.
So what I'm saying is that, sure, LoS is relatively less significant in its own time than SotN in its time relative to the gaming community as a whole, but LoS HAS sold much better than other Castlevanias of late, revitalizing the series sales-wise from its until-recent decline. Cox is also not lying when he says that LoS has sold more copies than any other Castlevania, at least in its own time.
I really don't think he's being as sinister as you think he is. I think he saw the statistics for sales, and thought "Hey, look at that! We're really making a difference for the series!" and is proud of that.
The 2-D and 3-D sales trends are very fundamentally different.
While 2-D games have shown an strong decline from Sotn to CotM to DoS to MoF. There are also significant unknowns from digital sales --which I'm currently researching...
The 3-D games have shown significant sales growth from Castlevania 64, to Lament of Innocence, to Lords of Shadow --however both Legacy of Darkness and Curse of Darkness have punctuated the overall trend with major declines. The problem is the sales growth hasn't kept up with the growth of the industry overall --Lords of Shadow being a marginal improvement.
-
I'm always hearing that the site does not have reputable data? So ehh... Vgchartz's yeah I remember using this for a topic... Went downhill more quickly than a politician's reputation after having a sexual relationship with their secretary.
But it gives an idea at least right?
-
Sorry Cecil-Kain... but this post is propaganda in action.
I understand the shock and awe of the post (and I read it on Facebook before), but without accurate data, it's really your word against his.
VGChartz's credibility has been often questioned, so it's not a very good arrow in your quiver, and you're using that arrow a lot in this post.
Fair disclosure up front and throughout the article. Vgcharts is currently the most comprehensive public source for this kind of information. If their methodology is flawed and the data skewed, there's an open challenge for anyone willing to audit these figures and I'll gladly correct the report and eat my fair share of humble pie. :-)
-
Fair disclosure up front and throughout the article. Vgcharts is currently the most comprehensive public source for this kind of information. If their methodology is flawed and the data skewed, there's an open challenge for anyone willing to audit these figures and I'll gladly correct the report and eat my fair share of humble pie. :-)
But why even MAKE the report if you cannot get accurate sales data? That's just totally unprofessional. In a job, you'd be fired for that.
You literally went "Hmm, I want to discuss Cox's statement about LoS sales and compare it with other CV games, but I don't have nor can get accurate CV sales info... OH WELL, LETS USE IMAGINARY SALES NUMBERS TO PROVE MY POINTS."
The moment you use a non-credible source for your arguments, your argument just can't hold water at all.
All because it's the only source out there doesn't mean it should be used. That's like asking 4chan for leaked game info. Sure, it sounds legit, but you have no idea to know if it is or not.
-
But why even MAKE the report if you cannot get accurate sales data? That's just totally unprofessional. In a job, you'd be fired for that.
You literally went "Hmm, I want to discuss Cox's statement about LoS sales and compare it with other CV games, but I don't have nor can get accurate CV sales info... OH WELL, LETS USE IMAGINARY SALES NUMBERS TO PROVE MY POINTS."
The moment you use a non-credible source for your arguments, your argument just can't hold water at all.
All because it's the only source out there doesn't mean it should be used. That's like asking 4chan for leaked game info. Sure, it sounds legit, but you have no idea to know if it is or not.
Flame.
If you have no confidence in vgchartz, that's fine and 100% your business. But I'm not going to dismiss this data based on your personal opinion or other unsubstantiated heresay. If you have evidence that vgchartz is guilty of gross inaccuracies or outright fraud, then post the evidence to back it up. If you believe this sales data is false or inaccurate, then by all means please provide a link to a more reliable source. Otherwise you're propagating group-think instead of an honest discussion of the issues. Respectfully.
-
Vgchartz has been proven to be inaccurate on more than a few instances. By now it's common knowledge like how it's common knowledge that the Earth is round.
So when you say "Prove it" it's like asking us to prove to you that the Earth is round.
It's really not opinion by now.
However, if you do want proof, I'm sure people with a little more time on their hands than I do right now will throw many examples at you... which you will ignore, I'm guessing.
Having said that, it comes down to "Use inaccurate data" vs. "no data".
Which do you think is the better choice?
Are there really no other methods of getting data that will yield a more professional, accurate assessment?
Your article isn't really 'busting' anything.
And I don't like Dave Cox much. I want your article to have an impact... but using that source is tarnishing your efforts.
-
I thought this was going to be about "There's nor a single QTE in LoS2" and then last night's magazine "We climbed the tower with a QTE".
-
LoS may also be coming to PC, which'll mean more sales . . .
Since neither of these systems will have the backward compatibility to support Lords of Shadow 2, mainstream gamers may begin saving up for powerful next generation hardware, instead of wasting their money on current generation software.
. . . and I think several gamers will move to PC next generation; I know one guy in our office who is already decided and I'm strongly considering this myself.
But can't you give some credit where credit is due? Dave Cox and Mercurysteam really can do no right from some quarters.
-
I thought this was going to be about "There's nor a single QTE in LoS2" and then last night's magazine "We climbed the tower with a QTE".
In fact, I thought this thread was going to be about the claims Cox has made over the years and how a number of them have been false. Instead it's a thread sitting on VGChartz sales, which are even less trustworthy than what Cox has to say.
-
Vgchartz has been proven to be inaccurate on more than a few instances. By now it's common knowledge like how it's common knowledge that the Earth is round.
So when you say "Prove it" it's like asking us to prove to you that the Earth is round.
It's really not opinion by now.
However, if you do want proof, I'm sure people with a little more time on their hands than I do right now will throw many examples at you... which you will ignore, I'm guessing.
If it's common knowledge, then it *really* shouldn't be that hard to prove. Group-think and heresay just doesn't cut it. I could tell you that Wikipedia can't be trusted because I've seen a dozen articles with inaccurate information, but the fact remains that Wikipedia is still a vast resource of legitimate information --in spite of its flaws.
I'm sure with the tens of thousands of games vgchartz has listed, irregularities will pop up from time to time. But when those mistakes are made, that's hardly an excuse to write off the whole site unless you're accusing them of systemic fraud. So far, the biggest problem I've found with vgchartz is a lack of transparency with their methodology and sourcing, but trade secrecy hardly constitutes fraud.
Having said that, it comes down to "Use inaccurate data" vs. "no data".
Which do you think is the better choice?
Depends on the margin of error. Even rounding off the figures spoils 100% accuracy.
Are there really no other methods of getting data that will yield a more professional, accurate assessment?
I've been looking into this for a couple months now. Like I said before, I'm working on a much larger report... NPD appears to be the primary resource routinely cited by gaming media --unfortunately their resources are not publicly available. And even so, it appears their data is regional instead of global.
-
Here's some proof for you to ignore.
The first and obvious one:
They often have no sources to back up their sales figures. if there is no source, then where did it come from? A birdie?
Second.
They themselves admit on their about us page, that they make, quote: "ground-breaking weekly charts based on estimates from retail partners and passive consumer surveys." They make GUESSES based on partial info. Not official info from the dev. Of course when official numbers DO come out, they are quick to change their charts to match them.
Third.
Their accuracy, while sometimes impressive for guesswork, is still not 100% accurate. which means that while it might be easier to estimate sales for a AAA best seller game or console, when you get to smaller games, or not as successful games, it becomes much harder to make accurate guesses.
Also, considering some of their sources for sales, (retailers and surveys) You can't help but see why they would be inaccurate. Especially retailers, who would prefer their numbers be higher or lower, and therefore can lead to inconsistencies. And even the big stuff is not 100%
here's a legit copypaste of their self admitted methodology, right from their site.
VGChartz Methodology
Data-Collection Methodology
All sales estimates on VGChartz are arrived at via a number of proprietrary and ever-developing methods:
Passively polling end users to find out what games they are currently purchasing and playing
Polling retail partners to find out what games and hardware they are selling
Using statistical trend fitting and historical data for similar games
Studying resell prices to determine consumer demand and inventory levels
Consulting with publishers and manufacturers to find out how many units they are introducing into the channel
do note that last one. they might contact publishers not for sales numbers, but how many units were introduced into the system.
-
In fact, I thought this thread was going to be about the claims Cox has made over the years and how a number of them have been false. Instead it's a thread sitting on VGChartz sales, which are even less trustworthy than what Cox has to say.
I too thought this. I was far more interested in that and it would be a great read with more weight to it.
Cecil, I'd love for this all to be 100% true and a real zinger to illustrate the error in Cox's bloated ego about LoS's impact on the series. However, if the data is inconclusive and inaccurate.....no matter how much or how little inaccurate it may be....it immediately discredits the hard work you put into compiling all this information. I actually feel bad that you went to all that hard work of getting all of this information, and it's going to lack credibility no matter how strongly you try to justify the findings. Being completely open and honest about the high likelihood of inaccuracy does not make it sound any more noble. It makes it sound like you wasted your time and you don't yet realize it.
I'd say hold onto all that you found, and do your damnedest to dig up more substantiated numbers before toting this any further. If you can indeed prove the data with far less room for error or doubt, it will result in far more support than dropping inconclusive data and trying to pretty it up with a lot of jargon.
I wish you luck, sir.
-
Here's some proof for you to ignore.
Please see the following....
The first and obvious one:
They often have no sources to back up their sales figures. if there is no source, then where did it come from? A birdie?
Anonymous sources do not necessarily indicate false information. Does it make vgchartz look good? No, not really --but it doesn't make them wrong either.
Second.
They themselves admit on their about us page, that they make, quote: "ground-breaking weekly charts based on estimates from retail partners and passive consumer surveys." They make GUESSES based on partial info. Not official info from the dev. Of course when official numbers DO come out, they are quick to change their charts to match them.
This is where context is important. We're not talking about games that were released last month and still selling several thousands copies per day. Educated guesswork and projections are perfectly reasonable for major releases fresh on the shelf, but that's not even close to what we're talking about here. Lords of Shadow has been out for almost 3 years and thrown in the bargain bin a long time ago. We are talking about *archival* sales data that has had plenty of time to be verified.
Third.
Their accuracy, while sometimes impressive for guesswork, is still not 100% accurate. which means that while it might be easier to estimate sales for a AAA best seller game or console, when you get to smaller games, or not as successful games, it becomes much harder to make accurate guesses.
Also, considering some of their sources for sales, (retailers and surveys) You can't help but see why they would be inaccurate. Especially retailers, who would prefer their numbers be higher or lower, and therefore can lead to inconsistencies. And even the big stuff is not 100%
here's a legit copypaste of their self admitted methodology, right from their site.do note that last one. they might contact publishers not for sales numbers, but how many units were introduced into the system.
Considering they're reporting retail sales, it makes sense to trust the retailers up front and then verify with publishers on the back end. Guesswork and projections are never 100% accurate with a moving target. I'm surprised you're not trying to crucify them for reporting weekly instead of minute by minute. Good grief...
Anyway the invitation remains open, if you can provide more reliable sales data. I'll gladly correct the report.
-
I'm with Sindra on this. And I also wish you luck...
-
I too look forward to seeing this go farther. Only thing I can add is to realize there will never be 100% accuracy for this kind of report. Just the same as the retailers could fudge their numbers for their own benefit, there is nothing stopping the publisher or even the original creators from doing the same thing. So no one with any sense should ever really expect 100% accuracy. Best advice I can give is to cast as wide a net as you can with as many sources as you can find. Hell, if you haven't try contacting Konami, publishers and retailers directly. Worst thing they could do is not comment.
-
I think it can't be proved, but SotN surely is the best seller in the Castlevania history, with all its ports and downloads.
So, although the report is based on dubious sources, I like where it goes, not to mention that Cox is a proven liar that mocked all of us many times with false statements, so all the praise on his game could as well be just another set of lies from him.
-
In fact, I thought this thread was going to be about the claims Cox has made over the years and how a number of them have been false.
This, verbatim. Though it's not entirely too late for someone to do such a thing, I suppose, if they wanted to spend the time doing it.
-
Isn't vgchartz know for fabricating (or guessing) sales numbers?
YES.
-
stopped reading there
We shouldn't need to correct you. You shouldn't be using VGchartz. Can't find sales numbers? that means Konami didn't release them. Don't go using made up "estimates". Either go full on professional and call em for it, or don't. You can't make a sales comparison report when you can't get accurate sales information. Cox can. Because he works for Konami and is privy to that kind of info.
The funny part:
The "official" NPD numbers aren't really high. The Euro numbers estimate from Neogaf show some very low numbers. Japan... pft, the series isn't even that relevant in Japan anyway...
What do WE KNOW is that the game shipped more than 1m copies. We don't know ANYTHING besides that.
I would love to see official numbers. But if I had to say, I don't really think that LoS is the most sold Castlevania game out there, AT ALL. One of the most? Yes. The most, nope.
-
Fair disclosure up front and throughout the article. Vgcharts is currently the most comprehensive public source for this kind of information. If their methodology is flawed and the data skewed, there's an open challenge for anyone willing to audit these figures and I'll gladly correct the report and eat my fair share of humble pie. :-)
Their numbers are banned on Neogaf, Gametrailers, Gamespot, etc. Don't you think they have a reason for this?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=444554 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=444554)
http://forums.n4g.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=200712&mpage=1#200735 (http://forums.n4g.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=200712&mpage=1#200735)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VG_Chartz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VG_Chartz)
VGChartz provides tools for data analysis and charting and regular written analysis of the data referencing major news in the video gaming industry. Sales figures on VGChartz are based on estimates extrapolated from small retail samples.[4] While offering some information about their methodology through their website,[5] VGChartz does not publish any sources on how they get their data. Some sites, including Gamasutra and Wired News, have questioned the reliability of the information presented by the site.[4][6] VGChartz has defended the credibility and reliability of its sales data,[7] often comparing their numbers with the ones published by NPD Group,[8] although some charts have been retroactively adjusted to better match NPD's monthly reports.[4][9]
If you look on Neogaf, you can find for topics full of their bullshit practices there.
----
EDIT: Gaaaaaaah, sorry for triple posting, I thought the forum would merge the posts automatically.
-
Their numbers are banned on Neogaf, Gametrailers, Gamespot, etc. Don't you think they have a reason for this?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=444554 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=444554)
http://forums.n4g.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=200712&mpage=1#200735 (http://forums.n4g.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=200712&mpage=1#200735)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VG_Chartz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VG_Chartz)
If you look on Neogaf, you can find for topics full of their bullshit practices there.
----
EDIT: Gaaaaaaah, sorry for triple posting, I thought the forum would merge the posts automatically.
NeoGAF bans the use of VGChartz sales numbers when it comes to sales discussions because of how inaccurate they are. That should tell you something..
-
Ok, I have to ask, out of personal interest mainly, if VGchartz is unreliable, are there any other sources for sales data you guys would recommend? I started a new blog recently and I may put some "video game industry" posts up there eventually, so I'd like the data they contain to be as accurate as possible. Would contacting the companies directly, like Konami, be able to give me good info, at least if they keep records? Do they accept phone calls or emails, generally?
-
Ok, I have to ask, out of personal interest mainly, if VGchartz is unreliable, are there any other sources for sales data you guys would recommend? I started a new blog recently and I may put some "video game industry" posts up there eventually, so I'd like the data they contain to be as accurate as possible. Would contacting the companies directly, like Konami, be able to give me good info, at least if they keep records? Do they accept phone calls or emails, generally?
NPD for America. Euro-charts for Europe. Media-Create, Famitsu and Dengeki for Japan.
All of them are posted on forums like Neogaf.
-
There is no one stop shop for sales numbers, and in a lot of cases sales numbers just don't exist publically.
I, as the head of my own video game company, have NO obligation to publicly post and or announce my sales reports. Most of the time you see sales reports from the companies themselves because companies want to brag about their success. You can guess at sales by some retailer reports, but you'll be very hard pressed to find a definitive accurate number.
Profit reports though, can be obtained by publically shared companies when they report to their investors.
@cecil-kain: You REALLY need to learn when to quit man. When 5 reputable people tell you no, don't insist it's yes. Demanding them to prove you wrong, when the information is so widely know, just makes you look like a dunce.
-
It certainly doesn't make me think any better of OA, which already has my distaste.
-
i don't know the first thing about vgchartz but based strictly on what i've seen here, this is what i'm thinking:
1) in most fora, the burden is on the proponent of a source of information to show that the information is reliable. not only has that not been done here, but plenty has been said here to show that vgchartz is NOT reliable.
2) full disclosure doesn't cure the defect. a willingness to adopt more reliable statistics upon presentation doesn't thereby make unreliable data more reliable.
3) unreliable data (that "might" be true) - so long as it remains unreliable - has no more value than data known to be false.
good luck, op.
-
It certainly doesn't make me think any better of OA, which already has my distaste.
Same here... I was quite interested in OA at first, but now it sounds like "How to kill Dave Cox 101". Every time he opens his mouth or tweets, it's like if everybody wanted to to prove he's a liar and wrong.
Once again, Cox wouldn't say "Well, LoS is just okay": he's trying to sell a product, and he wants to use the best arguments. Even if the numbers are not the true ones, it doesn't surprise me at all.
(EDIT: Also, LOL @ -2 when no ones debates or quote me...)
-
I don't know why, but I saw the thread title and the first thought in my head was that he got caught driving drunk. o_O
-
OA has been a joke from the very beginning. I predicted then they would go into everything half heartedly, and never actually do anything or incite any change whatsoever. Fast forward to present day, and surprise! Exactly as predicted.
The leadership has absolutely no idea what it is doing. OA has accomplished nothing but sound like a bunch of entitled babies while confusing, underwhelming, and letting people down with all of their 'projects'.
-
Well they did put lens flares on random AoS screenshots and did that hilariously dead serious '1999 movie script' so they have brought joy to this world, albeit of the unintentional sort.
-
OA has been a joke from the very beginning. I predicted then they would go into everything half heartedly, and never actually do anything or incite any change whatsoever. Fast forward to present day, and surprise! Exactly as predicted.
The leadership has absolutely no idea what it is doing. OA has accomplished nothing but sound like a bunch of entitled babies while confusing, underwhelming, and letting people down with all of their 'projects'.
Cecil Kain practically IS the leadership all by himself. Cecil Kain IS Operation Akumajo. OA never came off as anything like 100K strong or Operation Rainfall, there is no real leadership structure with actual effort put into it to achieve a common goal. It's just Cecil Kain disliking LoS. Thats all OA is. it does not represent "a majority" of fans, just one person's opinion.
As well as taking a bullshit weird statement from Cox totally seriously, when Cox said that Akumajo Dracula and Castlevania are different entities.
OA takes itself way too seriously, as if someone's life depended on it. And there really sin't much interaction with the "fans". Again, it's really just CK venting his hate for Cox and LoS and how it's ruined the soul of Castlevania. (Something that's just fine as an opinion on a forum, but as a movement to change minds? HA)
there's a reason he only has 700 followers, where the other legit movements have thousands. Even 100K Strong actually reached 100K.
I mean seriously? "we REJECT the legitimacy"? Come on.
-
Oh yes, I'm aware it's a one man ship but if I supplemented his name in there it would be seen as more of a personal attack. He had driven away anyone who even wanted to help, by his unwillingness to lead instead of dictate.
I tried to help, but he is too much of an egotistical brat to take in any advice from anyone.
I am completely ashamed that anyone may think he speaks for the fanbase, and in turn speaks for me. Likewise, I laugh as all his statements are using "we" instead of "I".
-
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taurusarmed.net%2Fforums%2Fattachments%2Ffiring-line%2F52690d1365197413-now-advertising-zip-gun-anchorman_well_that_escalated_quickly_966.jpg&hash=3b2874cddb68735c8ee40b82128ed8325fd3a95b)
-
I wish a-yty led a movement. Like "100,000 strong for Castlevania/Moomintroll crossover". It would be an earth shattering movement of Arab Spring proportions.
-
Why not make a "1,000 for Metroid: Other M"?
-
Wow, harsh words.
Indeed though, Cecil-Kain, it appears as if the operation is just a soapbox for voicing your personal distaste for the LoS series, by going after its figurehead.
I am not sure this is the direction you want to go, and it doesn't seem very professional.
You might want to have a group of people who can bounce ideas off of one another.
@Everyone else:
C'mon, don't disenfranchise the Aria screenshots. Some are pretty alright-looking...
-
I'm not, I kinda like them. The Aria "remastered" Screenshots were alright by my book. (lens flare was a bit much though)
I laugh as all his statements are using "we" instead of "I".
Yknow, you just put your finger on something that always bothered me about OA but I couldnt figure what. That's it. It's just him "soapboxing" as Jorge put it, but he uses words like "we" and "us" as if his opinion represented some kind of large majority group of Cv fans.
Thats what it was that turned me off from it from the very start...
-
Just to clarify, I think cecil-kain's heart is in the right place and I support the idea of OA.
-
There is no one stop shop for sales numbers, and in a lot of cases sales numbers just don't exist publically.
I, as the head of my own video game company, have NO obligation to publicly post and or announce my sales reports. Most of the time you see sales reports from the companies themselves because companies want to brag about their success. You can guess at sales by some retailer reports, but you'll be very hard pressed to find a definitive accurate number.
Profit reports though, can be obtained by publically shared companies when they report to their investors.
Thanks, Uzo and Maehdros. About those profits reports, I'm wondering...I don't have much experience with finance, so forgive me for asking, but do profit reports describe how much money a company made overall, or do they break it down and describe how much profit was made off of each individual game/expansion/DLC/other product?
-
I believe it varies by company, in where there is likely a legal minimum and they can choose to disclose more if they want to. My company is not publicly traded so I honestly haven't looked into what the legal minimum disclosure is. I don't believe they are required to disclose per game though, but I could be wrong.
-
Just to clarify, I think cecil-kain's heart is in the right place and I support the idea of OP.
I agree with this.
-
I was being a douchebag (sorry ;-;), but yeah, I actually agree with Cecil too on a few points. But man, you need to rethink your strategy. You've been doing things in a really awkward way that comes off as unintentionally comical and that's been hurting your cause from day 1.
-
This place really is an ugly mob sometimes.
-
I think maybe if someone called Konami up and said they were interested in buying some shares of the company and would like to speak to a promoter or someone who would be able to deal with some concerns over sales figures over recent years, maybe you could get some leakage out of them.
-
This place really is an ugly mob sometimes.
>various people disagreeing with someone and/or calling them out on things they don't like
>Mob
ok.
-
Disagreeing is one thing, calling another poster's obviously lengthy research and analysis--even if based on unreliable data--a joke and the work of a dunce, and then, as a herd, proclaiming the poster just a front for a personal vendetta against Dave Cox--a moderator joining in no less--yeah, I call that an Internet mob.
But please, do carry on.
-
Disagreeing is one thing, calling another poster's obviously lengthy research and analysis--even if based on unreliable data--a joke and the work of a dunce, and then, as a herd, proclaiming the poster just a front for a personal vendetta against Dave Cox--a moderator joining in no less--yeah, I call that an Internet mob.
But please, do carry on.
I would say that these people are making observations. I'm sure most of those opinions didn't in fact start root just in this thread with this claim of research.
-
It's just part of how the board rolls, Jimmay--and I think you'll find it to be the same at other Castlevania places too. Folks may have been rough on Cecil, but no-one's really being malicious, and I wouldn't say we're being unduly harsh, either. If you make a statement people see as egregiously incorrect, or use inaccurate data (as Cecil did), they'll call you out on it, and they won't be overly gentle with you either. That doesn't mean they're a mob--since, after all, mobs aim to demolish rather than correct, and mobs won't just laugh it off and (metaphorically) buy you a beer later on when it's all blown over.
It's just something a wise person gets used to when hanging 'round most forums in the Castlevania fandom (not just this one), in my experience.
-
Just to clarify, I hold no ill will towards cecil-kain. I like him, he's a nice guy, and seems like smart dude. That said, I still hold up to my previous statements regarding OA and his role in it.
-
This all seems to be complaining for the sake of complaining.
-
Just a few closing thoughts before I bow out of this conversation.
I made the decision to give vgchartz the benefit of the doubt that their *archival* Castlevania sales data is reasonably accurate. I take full responsibility for that decision. I came into this conversation knowing full well that many of you have personal biases against that source, and against Operation: Akumajo in general. From the outset, I’ve invited naysayers to fact-check my work --as I myself have made every reasonable effort to do before posting this report. Regardless, I doubt this topic would have turned out much differently if I had obtained insider access from a non-public source that the naysayers couldn’t access to verify for themselves.
I appreciate the more constructive feedback from Sindra, Jorge, and a few others, but it’s become obvious to me now that the Castlevania Dungeon is no longer a place that I can expect to maintain a reasonable or intelligent conversation.
Flame. You were rude, but you at least had enough courtesy to explain your viewpoint. I don’t agree with you and I explained why. Beyond that some of what you said was really over the top.
UZO. I speak on behalf of my community, just as you speak for your business. If you run your business badly, customers and employees will leave. If I run Operation: Akumajo badly, its supporters will leave. And yet it keeps growing and growing, month after month, year after year --just maybe not as fast as if *you* were in charge. Really? Get over yourself.
Jorge. I’ve always respected you, but this forum has really gone downhill. When malicious personal attacks and name-calling are openly tolerated, it degrades the whole forum and everyone in it. With that said, this topic has been completely and hopelessly derailed, please close it.
Respectfully.
-
Cecil, if you feel that you're not appreciated for your contributions and that leaving is the best course of action, then that's how you feel things need to go. It's unfortunate. I really would have liked to have seen the "compilation of Dave Cox errors" that we mentioned before. I still think that would be an interesting read for people who might question why there is so much hate for Cox from a sizable chunk of the fanbase.
I will note that saying the forum has gone downhill is not an accurate statement. This is how it has always been, from back when I joined in 2002-03 until now. In fact, it was often much worse. Jorge has actually tightened moderation of the forums in these past years. There will always be people who bitch and complain about something in the fandom. Thick skin is often required. If these nitpicks and negative criticisms bother you enough to want to leave it behind completely, then you would never have survived an encounter with Snappleman back in the day.
I again wish you luck on your venture, though.
-
And yet it keeps growing and growing, month after month, year after year --just maybe not as fast as if *you* were in charge.
Well, at least we got one thing straight.
-
I am saddened by your words, Cecil-Kain.
I did call people out that their words are being overly harsh.
I will close the topic as you asked.
In addition, the moderation and I will try our best to seek out particularly damaging attacks, though, as Sindra said, with this forum (and any forum), anything you post will be put under scrutiny. I believe Flame's (yeah I'm calling you on it) disagreement with your post was overly harsh and I'm actually beginning to be wary of the entire forums' increase in asinine responses. Must be a Summer thing? Always happens around this time. It's like people's asshole-rating goes up.
Regardless, if you feel this forum is no longer a place for you to post, no one is tethering you here. You can continue your operation and I will continue to see posts about it on Facebook, etc. In an odd way, you have gone and stepped low, by saying you cannot have intelligent discussions here, as a last hurrah.
Like some other people, I am actually on your side on this, and I think your heart is in the right place.
I do not promote 'herd mentality' (in response to Jimmay), and I have tried to be as respectful as possible with my responses. I would hope that people follow my example when they disagree with something... but the observation I made stands. That said observation is agreed upon by others is coincidental.
I do promote civility, though... and some of the responses here (Flame, Uzo) lead more towards hostility than civility.
I am ashamed of you.
Topic locked.