Topic: Dave Cox Busted

[cecil-kain]

Recently I've been doing lots of research on Castlevania's retail sales to map 2-D and 3-D sales trends, but I got a bit sidetracked by some of Cox's recent publicity to write the following report.  I know some of you don't like vgchartz, which is fine.  If any of you have some more reliable data, step right up and I'll make corrections.

Originally posted on the Facebook Page 5/29/13

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=602388843114211&set=a.244050952281337.66406.243488722337560

Operation: Akumajo presents
A special report on Castlevania sales

“Dave Cox Busted”

While Castlevania fans await the news of Lords of Shadow 2, it's time to expose a few myths about the previous game. Over the last couple years, Konami Producer Dave Cox has proudly proclaimed Castlevania Lords of Shadow the best selling Castlevania game of all time, and himself the visionary savior of our beloved series. In this report, we intend to challenge the hype.

Far be it from us to begrudge good fortune. We will give credit where credit is due. Vgchartz is currently reporting that Lords of Shadow sold 1.3 Million copies globally --this includes 790,000 for the Playstation 3 and an additional 510,000 for the Xbox 360. Congratulations Mr Cox.

Before dissecting the sales data, let’s take just a moment to overstate the obvious. Sales alone do not necessarily indicate success. Konami doesn’t publish information on their games’ budgets or revenues, therefore we shouldn’t make any assumptions about profits or margins. When Mr Cox boasts of his success, he is specifically stating that Lords of Shadow’s sales have revitalized the Castlevania brand --and that is exactly what we intend to challenge in this report. Shall we begin?

Castlevania Symphony of the Night is the gold standard by which all other Castlevanias are measured. Critics and fans alike have hailed it not only the best Castlevania, but also one of the best video games of all time. Just compare Symphony of the Night’s Metacritic and Gamerankings scores to Lords of Shadow, and there can be no doubt which video game has the superior reputation.

Game Review Scores
-----------------------------------
Symphony on the Night
Metacritic 93/100 Gamerankings 93.03%

Lords of Shadow
Metacritic 85/100 Gamerankings 85.03%
-----------------------------------

Now let's get to the sales...

According to Vgchartz, Symphony of the Night sold 1.27 Million copies globally for the Playstaion 1. This easily beats Lords of Shadow’s individual sales on both the Playstation 3 (790,000 copies) and the Xbox 360 (510,000 copies) --unfortunately it doesn’t beat the total cross-platform sales (1.3 Million copies). But if we’re going to look at Lords of Shadow’s sales collectively, then let’s give Symphony of the Night exactly the same treatment.

As many of you already know...

Castlevania Symphony of the Night has been ported several times since the original Playstation 1 release. Hard copy ports include Akumajō Dracula X: Gekka no Yasōkyoku for the Sega Saturn, the Dracula X Chronicles for the Playstation Portable, and Konami Classics Vol 1 for the Xbox 360. Additional digital ports have also been released for the Playstation Network (PS3/PSP/Vita) and Xbox Live Arcade.

Unfortunately, half of these ports have not had their sales published, so it’s impossible to make a decisive statement on Symphony of the Night’s lifetime global sales without more complete data. Fortunately we have just enough information to settle this contest. According to Vgchartz, the Dracula X Chronicles for the Playstation Portable sold 370,000 copies globally (not including its digital sales over the Playstation Network) and the Konami Classics Vol 1 sold an additional 50,000 copies in its exclusive US release. This brings Symphony of the Night’s collective lifetime global sales to an incomplete total of 1.69 Million copies. It’s comparison time...

Lifetime Global Sales
-----------------------------------
Symphony of the Night 1.69 Million copies
(not including PSN, XBLA, or Saturn ports)

Lords of Shadow 1.3 Million copies
-----------------------------------

We hereby challenge Mr Cox to release a full and accurate report detailing Symphony of the Night’s lifetime global sales --including all of the ports mentioned above. Furthermore, we also challenge him to prove his boastful assertions that Lords of Shadow is indeed the best-selling Castlevania game of all time.

But let’s pretend for a moment that ports don’t matter. Let’s pretend that Lords of Shadow *is* the best selling Castlevania of all time. There is still the critical matter of increasing market-share, and revitalizing the Castlevania brand in the hearts and minds of modern mainstream gamers. Let’s talk about that.

Accdoring to Vgchartz, Symphony of the Night ranks 139th best-selling game on the Playstation 1. Meanwhile Lords of Shadow currently ranks 228th best selling game on the Playstation 3, and 341st best selling game for the Xbox 360. But this could be misleading depending on the quality of the competition. Market penetration is a far better measure of growing the Castlevania brand, so let’s go back and carefully reconsider Castlevania’s performance in the context of hardware sales.

According to Vgchartz, Sony sold 104.25 Million Playstation 1 consoles globally. Therefore, if Symphony of the Night sold 1.27 Million copies for Playstation 1, then the market penetration was about 1.21%. In other words, about 1.21% of Playstation 1 owners purchased Symphony of the Night.

According to Vgchartz, Sony has now sold 77.33 Million Playstation 3 consoles globally. Therefore, if Lords of Shadow sold 790,000 copies for Playstation 3, then the market penetration is about 1.02%.

According to Vgchartz, Microsoft has sold 77.31 Million Xbox 360 consoles globally. Therefore, if Lords of Shadow sold 510,000 copies for the Xbox 360, then the market penetration is about 0.65%.

The Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 have collectively sold a combined 154.64 Million consoles globally, but Castlevania Lords of Shadow has only sold 1.3 Million copies for those consoles. That’s a total market penetration of only 0.84%!

And for quick review...

Total Market Penetration
-----------------------------------
Symphony of the Night (PS1) --1.21%

Lords of Shadow (PS3) --1.02%
Lords of Shadow (XB360) --0.65%
Lords of Shadow (PS3 + XB360) --0.84%
-----------------------------------

Let's sum this up...

Either Mr Cox is delusional or he’s a charlatan. More than 99% of modern home console owners have passed over his Castlevania reboot. Lords of Shadow has failed to significantly grow the brand and Castlevania remains a cult game series. While the game industry has grown by tens of Millions since the Playstation 1, Mr Cox is celebrating a marginal 1.3 Million sales as if he's made Castlevania relevant to over 27 Million gamers that would rather play Call of Duty instead. Thus his interest in rebooting Contra, but that's another story...

Very soon we're expecting Mr Cox to begin hyping Lords of Shadow 2 against the roaring thunder of a next generation console war. He may not need support from Akumajo fans, but he does need the mature mainstream that bought the original Lords of Shadow. Unfortunately, the Playstation 4 and Xbox One will dominate this year's E3 news and distract the mainstream audience. Since neither of these systems will have the backward compatibility to support Lords of Shadow 2, mainstream gamers may begin saving up for powerful next generation hardware, instead of wasting their money on current generation software. Without the steadfast loyalty of a united Castlevania fanbase, Mr Cox may soon find himself at the mercy of rapidly declining Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 markets.

It’s time for a certain Producer to eat some humble pie. Best of luck Mr Cox.

-----Sources-----

-----Game Review Scores-----
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation/castlevania-symphony-of-the-night
http://www.gamerankings.com/ps/196885-castlevania-symphony-of-the-night/index.html
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/castlevania-lords-of-shadow
http://www.gamerankings.com/ps3/952494-castlevania-lords-of-shadow/index.html

-----Castlevania Sales------
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/327/castlevania-symphony-of-the-night/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/12623/castlevania-the-dracula-x-chronicles/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41559/konami-classics-vol-1/

-----Call of Duty Sales-----
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/44605/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-3/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/44606/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-3/

-----Console Sales-----
http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/

-----Best Selling Games by Console-----
http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/5/playstation/
http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/3/playstation-3/
http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/7/xbox-360/

[Chernabogue]

Is it so incredible for a man producing/selling a product to distord a bit the reality?

I'm not going to debate on anything with any of you, who have very strong opinions and points of view, but without him, CV would be dead and burried by now. I'm not trying to defend him, just my 2 cents.

There's no need for another Cox/IGA, modern/traditional CV, etc. debate(s).

[Kingshango]

Isn't vgchartz know for fabricating (or guessing) sales numbers?

[Gecko]

In its own original release time, Symphony did not sell as many copies as LoS in its current release time time. I don't think it's fair to include sales of Dracula X Chronicles, since it is not exclusively Symphony of the Night for PSP. Lots of people bought it just to play Rondo of Blood. It's unfair to say that the sales are based on Symphony being unlockable. Also, it is entirely out of the era of the PS1.  However, Many people sold/lost/destroyed/tossed their old PS1 copies of SotN, so repurchases via Xbox and PS3 digital sales or the Konami Collection are not representative of how well SotN is currently revitalizing the series.  If you want to include sales in which SotN isn't even the only title in the collection, MANY MANY years after initial release, it should be considered as a separate release. Most people don't have their original copies of SotN anymore, so sales because of SotN don't necessarily reflect new gamers who haven't played it before, and therefore a new impact.

Taken in their own times, LoS wins, sales-wise. Given the other statistics you've brought up though, LoS has had significantly less of an impact than SotN relative to the industry as a whole. Still, Castlevania sales were really suffering up until LoS's release, so LoS has revitalized the series to a pretty fair extent.

So what I'm saying is that, sure, LoS is relatively less significant in its own time than SotN in its time relative to the gaming community as a whole, but LoS HAS sold much better than other Castlevanias of late, revitalizing the series sales-wise from its until-recent decline. Cox is also not lying when he says that LoS has sold more copies than any other Castlevania, at least in its own time.

I really don't think he's being as sinister as you think he is. I think he saw the statistics for sales, and thought "Hey, look at that! We're really making a difference for the series!" and is proud of that.

[Flame]

Vgchartz

stopped reading there

I know some of you don't like vgchartz, which is fine.  If any of you have some more reliable data, step right up and I'll make corrections.

We shouldn't need to correct you. You shouldn't be using VGchartz. Can't find sales numbers? that means Konami didn't release them. Don't go using made up "estimates". Either go full on professional and call em for it, or don't. You can't make a sales comparison report when you can't get accurate sales information. Cox can. Because he works for Konami and is privy to that kind of info.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Sorry Cecil-Kain... but this post is propaganda in action.

I understand the shock and awe of the post (and I read it on Facebook before), but without accurate data, it's really your word against his.
VGChartz's credibility has been often questioned, so it's not a very good arrow in your quiver, and you're using that arrow a lot in this post.

[cecil-kain]

In its own original release time, Symphony did not sell as many copies as LoS in its current release time time. I don't think it's fair to include sales of Dracula X Chronicles, since it is not exclusively Symphony of the Night for PSP. Lots of people bought it just to play Rondo of Blood. It's unfair to say that the sales are based on Symphony being unlockable. Also, it is entirely out of the era of the PS1.  However, Many people sold/lost/destroyed/tossed their old PS1 copies of SotN, so repurchases via Xbox and PS3 digital sales or the Konami Collection are not representative of how well SotN is currently revitalizing the series.  If you want to include sales in which SotN isn't even the only title in the collection, MANY MANY years after initial release, it should be considered as a separate release. Most people don't have their original copies of SotN anymore, so sales because of SotN don't necessarily reflect new gamers who haven't played it before, and therefore a new impact.

Taken in their own times, LoS wins, sales-wise. Given the other statistics you've brought up though, LoS has had significantly less of an impact than SotN relative to the industry as a whole. Still, Castlevania sales were really suffering up until LoS's release, so LoS has revitalized the series to a pretty fair extent.

So what I'm saying is that, sure, LoS is relatively less significant in its own time than SotN in its time relative to the gaming community as a whole, but LoS HAS sold much better than other Castlevanias of late, revitalizing the series sales-wise from its until-recent decline. Cox is also not lying when he says that LoS has sold more copies than any other Castlevania, at least in its own time.

I really don't think he's being as sinister as you think he is. I think he saw the statistics for sales, and thought "Hey, look at that! We're really making a difference for the series!" and is proud of that.

The 2-D and 3-D sales trends are very fundamentally different.

While 2-D games have shown an strong decline from Sotn to CotM to DoS to MoF.  There are also significant unknowns from digital sales --which I'm currently researching...

The 3-D games have shown significant sales growth from Castlevania 64, to Lament of Innocence, to Lords of Shadow --however both Legacy of Darkness and Curse of Darkness have punctuated the overall trend with major declines.  The problem is the sales growth hasn't kept up with the growth of the industry overall --Lords of Shadow being a marginal improvement.

[Neobelmont]

 I'm always hearing that the site does not have reputable data? So ehh... Vgchartz's yeah I remember using this for a topic... Went  downhill more quickly than a politician's reputation after having a sexual relationship with their secretary.

But it gives an idea at least right?

[cecil-kain]

Sorry Cecil-Kain... but this post is propaganda in action.

I understand the shock and awe of the post (and I read it on Facebook before), but without accurate data, it's really your word against his.
VGChartz's credibility has been often questioned, so it's not a very good arrow in your quiver, and you're using that arrow a lot in this post.

Fair disclosure up front and throughout the article.  Vgcharts is currently the most comprehensive public source for this kind of information.  If their methodology is flawed and the data skewed, there's an open challenge for anyone willing to audit these figures and I'll gladly correct the report and eat my fair share of humble pie.  :-)

[Flame]

Fair disclosure up front and throughout the article.  Vgcharts is currently the most comprehensive public source for this kind of information.  If their methodology is flawed and the data skewed, there's an open challenge for anyone willing to audit these figures and I'll gladly correct the report and eat my fair share of humble pie.  :-)

But why even MAKE the report if you cannot get accurate sales data? That's just totally unprofessional. In a job, you'd be fired for that.

You literally went "Hmm, I want to discuss Cox's statement about LoS sales and compare it with other CV games, but I don't have nor can get accurate CV sales info... OH WELL, LETS USE IMAGINARY SALES NUMBERS TO PROVE MY POINTS."

The moment you use a non-credible source for your arguments, your argument just can't hold water at all.

All because it's the only source out there doesn't mean it should be used. That's like asking 4chan for leaked game info. Sure, it sounds legit, but you have no idea to know if it is or not.

[cecil-kain]

But why even MAKE the report if you cannot get accurate sales data? That's just totally unprofessional. In a job, you'd be fired for that.

You literally went "Hmm, I want to discuss Cox's statement about LoS sales and compare it with other CV games, but I don't have nor can get accurate CV sales info... OH WELL, LETS USE IMAGINARY SALES NUMBERS TO PROVE MY POINTS."

The moment you use a non-credible source for your arguments, your argument just can't hold water at all.

All because it's the only source out there doesn't mean it should be used. That's like asking 4chan for leaked game info. Sure, it sounds legit, but you have no idea to know if it is or not.

Flame.
If you have no confidence in vgchartz, that's fine and 100% your business.  But I'm not going to dismiss this data based on your personal opinion or other unsubstantiated heresay.  If you have evidence that vgchartz is guilty of gross inaccuracies or outright fraud, then post the evidence to back it up.  If you believe this sales data is false or inaccurate, then by all means please provide a link to a more reliable source.  Otherwise you're propagating group-think instead of an honest discussion of the issues.  Respectfully.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Vgchartz has been proven to be inaccurate on more than a few instances.  By now it's common knowledge like how it's common knowledge that the Earth is round.

So when you say "Prove it" it's like asking us to prove to you that the Earth is round.
It's really not opinion by now.
However, if you do want proof, I'm sure people with a little more time on their hands than I do right now will throw many examples at you... which you will ignore, I'm guessing.

Having said that, it comes down to "Use inaccurate data" vs. "no data".
Which do you think is the better choice?
Are there really no other methods of getting data that will yield a more professional, accurate assessment?

Your article isn't really 'busting' anything.

And I don't like Dave Cox much.  I want your article to have an impact... but using that source is tarnishing your efforts.

[Ahasverus]

I thought this was going to be about "There's nor a single QTE in LoS2" and then last night's magazine "We climbed the tower with a QTE".

[The Silverlord]

LoS may also be coming to PC, which'll mean more sales . . .

Since neither of these systems will have the backward compatibility to support Lords of Shadow 2, mainstream gamers may begin saving up for powerful next generation hardware, instead of wasting their money on current generation software.

. . . and I think several gamers will move to PC next generation; I know one guy in our office who is already decided and I'm strongly considering this myself.

But can't you give some credit where credit is due?  Dave Cox and Mercurysteam really can do no right from some quarters.

[Foffy]

I thought this was going to be about "There's nor a single QTE in LoS2" and then last night's magazine "We climbed the tower with a QTE".

In fact, I thought this thread was going to be about the claims Cox has made over the years and how a number of them have been false. Instead it's a thread sitting on VGChartz sales, which are even less trustworthy than what Cox has to say.