Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Super Waffle on May 23, 2014, 12:59:35 PM
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What was with that, anyway? Did Lisa actually see something in Drac beyond his hellbent obsession with enslaving humanity and being the personification of all evil, or was it just a simple case of Nice Girls Like Bad Boys?
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Dracula & Mina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysqKHvQkKpM#ws)
pretty much this, in Castlevania form
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv119%2Fc0mbat%2Fmathias.jpg&hash=ced72635fa9f4e899d186c0db3dbff4e33ed590f)(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv119%2Fc0mbat%2Fvlad.jpg&hash=c10a864c3c39f65a87c176fa57a652158a2b9a4f)
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Well it's kind of implied that she's a reincarnation of Elizabetha. That being the case, it's not a huge leap to think that they're literally "soulmates".
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Well it's kind of implied that she's a reincarnation of Elizabetha.
I wasn't aware of this...
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I've thought about this alot, and really, it just is a major plot hole. Now keep in mind, I'm coming at this from the OLD canon (pre- LoI, so no Mathias.) The thing is, that Lisa thing that was added in SotN was obviously influenced by the 1992 Dracula film, as in, the idea that Drac losing his woman is what made him hate mankind. Fair enough. But if that were the case, shouldn't that have been the event that made him seek out dark powers and become a vampire to begin with? Or was Drac a human loving, family man vampire somehow before her death? And if he was NOT a vampire before her death, then how is Alucard half vampire?
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I've thought about this alot, and really, it just is a major plot hole. Now keep in mind, I'm coming at this from the OLD canon (pre- LoI, so no Mathias.) The thing is, that Lisa thing that was added in SotN was obviously influenced by the 1992 Dracula film, as in, the idea that Drac losing his woman is what made him hate mankind. Fair enough. But if that were the case, shouldn't that have been the event that made him seek out dark powers and become a vampire to begin with? Or was Drac a human loving, family man vampire somehow before her death? And if he was NOT a vampire before her death, then how is Alucard half vampire?
Well, if you look at the story, Elisabetha died from an illness (not human-caused reason), thus Mathias had no reason to hate mankind, only God. And since "dying", like his wife did, is a rule imposed by God, Mathias choose to defy it by becoming a vampire.
His hatred towards mankind begins thanks to Lisa's death at human hands. She's probably his second wife, and as we all know, mother to Alucard. That's when Dracula loses it and decides to attack humans. He had no reason to do it (besides drinking blood, probably) before. All he wanted was to live forever, but Lisa's death kickstarted his vendetta against humans.
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Well, if you look at the story, Elisabetha died from an illness (not human-caused reason), thus Mathias had no reason to hate mankind, only God. And since "dying", like his wife did, is a rule imposed by God, Mathias choose to defy it by becoming a vampire.
His hatred towards mankind begins thanks to Lisa's death at human hands. That's when Dracula decides to attack humans. He had no reason to do it (besides drinking blood, probably) until now.
That's how I always understood it. As for how he met Lisa, he was out looking for someone to drink from, saw her and instantly fell for her.
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dracula had some human allies too, recall the devil forgemasters Isaac y Hector. to our knowledge he never vampirized them.. its possible he also employed other devil forgemasters over the centuries prior to CVIII as well
then theres the master librarian, who by all accounts seems very human (albeit trapped in the castle, or another dimension, since he knew alucard well before the events of symphony)
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I've always read it the same was as theplottwist's said, Lisa is wife number two, but the reincarnation of Elisabeta. Seeing as Stoker's Dracula is considered 'canon', and in the Sorrow game, Mina Hakuba sounds similar to Mina Harker, I read it that Mina Hakuba is the reincarnation of Mina Harker, who was in turn Lisa's reincarnation - they're the same soul, Drac's soulmate.
The two wives thing also fits in well with the history of the real Vlad Tepes, who reputedly had two wives, the first of whom, according to legend, flung herself from the 'castle' - the fortress Poenari - into the Arges river, which is where that bit in Coppola's Dracula comes from. His second wife was Ilona Szilagyi, cousin of Matthias Corvinus, king of Hungary.
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That's how I always understood it. As for how he met Lisa, he was out looking for someone to drink from, saw her and instantly fell for her.
I always imagined them meeting at some kind of a ball, or maybe Dracula falling for her during his nightly rounds and whisking her away to his castle for a dance (the music being Wood Carving Partita, of course!).
;D
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pretty much this, in Castlevania form
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv119%2Fc0mbat%2Fmathias.jpg&hash=ced72635fa9f4e899d186c0db3dbff4e33ed590f)(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv119%2Fc0mbat%2Fvlad.jpg&hash=c10a864c3c39f65a87c176fa57a652158a2b9a4f)
To me, THIS ^^ is the reason, of course, taking the part of Elisabetha being the first love, and Lisa his "second" one. Maybe a reincarnation, but in a manner that is implied in the movie.
Now, why did Lisa loves a being like Dracula (a vampire)? Maybe only she can see a good side in him. Which side? Who knows...
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Lament introduced Elizabetha as Dracula's raison d'être, of sorts: her death is what drove Mathias' search for immortality and fueled his hatred for the divine. In other words, Elizabetha is at the heart of what makes Dracula who he is: strip away that original tragedy and you'll strip away most of the character's depth.
That's why it seems hard to imagine Dracula "falling" for another woman; any further romantic involvement would overlap with his love for Elizabetha and essentially destroy his character.
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Allow me to repost something I heard back in the DXC days... Just because Dracula's a vampire doesn't mean he doesn't have an angle in his dangle
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Lament introduced Elizabetha as Dracula's raison d'être, of sorts: her death is what drove Mathias' search for immortality and fueled his hatred for the divine. In other words, Elizabetha is at the heart of what makes Dracula who he is: strip away that original tragedy and you'll strip away most of the character's depth.
That's why it seems hard to imagine Dracula "falling" for another woman; any further romantic involvement would overlap with his love for Elizabetha and essentially destroy his character.
Unless, of course, Lisa is Elizabetha reincarnated, like Mina was to original Dracula's Elisabeta, who ALSO had a raison d'être, and few for Mina.
I don't see any problem with this, really. I can see a dark lord who is hated by the populace falling for a woman who has no fear of him, looks very much like his past wife, and is also kind like she was. She doesn't even need to be Elizabetha reincarnated. All it needs is for her to act and remind Dracula of his past wife. Of course, I'm aware that official material suggests that Lisa is Elizabetha reincarnated.
That's how I always understood it. As for how he met Lisa, he was out looking for someone to drink from, saw her and instantly fell for her.
Well, she was burned for accusations of being a witch. Knowing what kind of 'people' Dracula employs, it's not a stretch to think he had her employed too. Or that he provided her with special ingredients for her medicines.
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Unless, of course, Lisa is Elizabetha reincarnated, like Mina was to original Dracula's Elisabeta, who ALSO had a raison d'être, and few for Mina.
I don't see any problem with this, really. I can see a dark lord who is hated by the populace falling for a woman who has no fear of him, looks very much like his past wife, and is also kind like she was. She doesn't even need to be Elizabetha reincarnated. All it needs is for her to act and remind Dracula of his past wife.
This ^^. The first time that I see Lisa`s story in SoTN, I see her as a devoted wife to Dracula, being a vampire. Yes, is a little crazy that a very good woman to do this, but after all is the love that Lisa have to him, and viceversa. Then, with the Mathias-Elisabetha we have a Brahm Stoker`s Dracula`s movie relationship with LoI, but before Dracula becomes a vampire (in the movie, of course). And then, we have the Dracula-Lisa conection, like the Dracula-Mina Harker from the movie.
Now with this thread I am thinking, is there any part in the CVs game, in which Dracula says his name, or anyone says it? I remember only Alucard`s name in the Dracula`s Curse credits (Adrian F. Tepes)...
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Now with this thread I am thinking, is there any part in the CVs game, in which Dracula says his name, or anyone says it? I remember only Alucard`s name in the Dracula`s Curse credits (Adrian F. Tepes)...
Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow's Alucard entry on the "Library".
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Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow's Alucard entry on the "Library".
That`s right. Thanks for remind me that :).
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Now with this thread I am thinking, is there any part in the CVs game, in which Dracula says his name, or anyone says it? I remember only Alucard`s name in the Dracula`s Curse credits (Adrian F. Tepes)...
Tepes isn't really the last name of Dracula, but a nick-name. I'll assume that the CVIII development team and localizers didn't know it either so they just gave Alucard's last name as Tepes. This is about as close as we can get for the Dracula family name; Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia (1431–1476/77), was a member of the House of Drăculești, a branch of the House of Basarab, also known by his patronymic name: Dracula.
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Tepes isn't really the last name of Dracula, but a nick-name. I'll assume that the CVIII development team and localizers didn't know it either so they just gave Alucard's last name as Tepes. This is about as close as we can get for the Dracula family name; Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia (1431–1476/77), was a member of the House of Drăculești, a branch of the House of Basarab, also known by his patronymic name: Dracula.
Thanks a lot for the information :). That`s one of the reason that I like how CV and history have a little connection...
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Yeah they can't really be blamed for thinking "Tepes" was his last name, as countless articles and books make the backwards claim that "Dracula" was his nickname and "Tepes" was his last name. Sheer rubbish meant to distance him from his fictional vampire counterpart. The dude's name was "Dracula." Look at my signature, that's a photocopy of his actual handwriting, as he signed his name, just tinted red.
And I get that the Lisa thing makes sense when the Mathias thing is brought in, which is why I pointed out that it's hard to make sense of it if you use the old, PRE Mathias canon.
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I've always read it the same was as theplottwist's said, Lisa is wife number two, but the reincarnation of Elisabeta. Seeing as Stoker's Dracula is considered 'canon', and in the Sorrow game, Mina Hakuba sounds similar to Mina Harker, I read it that Mina Hakuba is the reincarnation of Mina Harker, who was in turn Lisa's reincarnation - they're the same soul, Drac's soulmate.
I am reminded of that really nice heart-tugging fanfiction that you shared to me which used that thought as a basis. And I do agree with what you said.
And I get that the Lisa thing makes sense when the Mathias thing is brought in, which is why I pointed out that it's hard to make sense of it if you use the old, PRE Mathias canon.
Keep the IGA stuff within the IGA canon, then there won't be much of a problem. :)
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I am reminded of that really nice heart-tugging fanfiction that you shared to me which used that thought as a basis. And I do agree with what you said.
I love that fic because it sits so well with my thoughts on the matter. It makes complete sense to me, because Mina is the person who holds Soma back from turning into his dark self, and helps bring him back in way the others don't, and the prospect of her dying almost sends him over the edge, which heavily implies the soulmates connection. She sees the goodness in his heart deep down, as Lisa did.
Regarding Lisa, I've always read it that she was a village healer/midwife type, the sort of woman who many stories of witches can be based on. It's very easy to see why people in the Middle Ages found such people, with these seemingly strange abilities and knowledge as havin powers. Of course, when Adrian was born, they likely would have seen some of the aspects of his dhampir nature - pale skin, golden eyes, and perhaps hints of his fangs, and they would have all too quickly come to the conclusion that Lisa had been consorting with the devil, with but the slightest provocation. They wouldn't have needed to see her with Dracula. My guess is that they met after he was out hunting, and was going to feed fom her, but then he saw the resemblance to Elisabeta, which stopped him.
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Keep the IGA stuff within the IGA canon, then there won't be much of a problem. :)
I suppose you're right, but it still irks me some, because remember, IGA inserted the Lisa thing years before he invented the Mathias part, and I was already baffled by this problem before LoI ever came out. I was already a diehard fan well before LoI, and I guess that's why I've had such sour grapes about the Mathias thing ever since it happened. Didn't like it then, and still don't. Also, one thing about the whole Lisa thing in SotN that always seemed weird to me, is, did IGA kinda retcon the ending of SotN without saying so? Cuz at the end of the game, after you beat Drac, and Al tells him what Lisa's last words were, Drac repents for trying to kill mankind, quotes the bible (in a positive, remorseful way) and dies sad about what he's done all this time. But....next time he comes back, it's like that NEVER happened, and he's just as mad as ever.
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I'm going with reincarnation on this one,
Not much has been known about Elizabetha, but I can blame bad storytelling on that but we do know that Lisa was practically Dracula's humanity.
If Mathias became Dracula afther Elizabetha's death, I can imagine her and Lisa were practically the same person, artwork also implies this.
When Lisa's last words were to not hate humans, I imagine she understood that they hated Dracula because of the creature he is, and not the person he is.
She saw the good in dracula and the years of Peace between LoI and Cv3 also implies that Lisa Death could have been the last straw.
As for the next game "nothing ever happened", I'm not sure, I want to say since Darc's full of Haterd, the Castle itself is his hatred and killing him on revival deosn't give him a chance to remember certain things, or simply he doesn't want to remember, this part is full of plot-holes.
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That was a very similar case as Hector who also lost his love thanks to Isaac's manipulation then he falls in love again with a witch who has a resemblance to his lost love and happened to be Isaac's little sister. :o
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This thread got way too analytical for my tastes.
Plus I'm pretty sure you guys are talking about things that only got retconned into the series after SotN.
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I suppose you're right, but it still irks me some, because remember, IGA inserted the Lisa thing years before he invented the Mathias part, and I was already baffled by this problem before LoI ever came out. I was already a diehard fan well before LoI, and I guess that's why I've had such sour grapes about the Mathias thing ever since it happened. Didn't like it then, and still don't.
This irks me too, however just do what I do K.K. Drunkinski; Ignore the Dracula/Mathias connection entirely. In an interview IGA has stated that Mathias is Dracula, but nowhere in the game does it outright state this. It's ambiguous at best. So it leaves it open to personal interpretation. I enjoy LoI more this way cause of the game's lack of story stating that Mathias is Dracula. I'm free to interpret what happens after the game has ended.
Also, one thing about the whole Lisa thing in SotN that always seemed weird to me, is, did IGA kinda retcon the ending of SotN without saying so? Cuz at the end of the game, after you beat Drac, and Al tells him what Lisa's last words were, Drac repents for trying to kill mankind, quotes the bible (in a positive, remorseful way) and dies sad about what he's done all this time. But....next time he comes back, it's like that NEVER happened, and he's just as mad as ever.
I was also scratching my head because of this as well. It didn't make sense. From a story prospective SotN--and how it ended--should have been the last CV entry of the entire series.
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wouldn't it be easier if LoI wasn't canon?
The Mathias=Dracula thing never came into fruition.
Establishing Belmonts, then expect the family to track a low profile Dracula for roughly 400 years was pretty half-baked.
The Vampire Killer's Origins still has no bearing on any of the future games.
An Origin story is supposed to be an Essential story, Still Cv3 fits that.
Although, it would have been cool if LoI left out Dracula and Went with Walter instead, establishing the Belmonts as renowned Vampire hunters, then Cover Dracula in another game.
Note: LoI is one of my favorite Cv games, but the establishments made 0 sense on how it was presented.
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Although, it would have been cool if LoI left out Dracula and Went with Walter instead, establishing the Belmonts as renowned Vampire hunters, then Cover Dracula in another game.
Note: LoI is one of my favorite Cv games, but the establishments made 0 sense on how it was presented.
Mathias and Dracula WERE pretty shoehorned in there, as was Death. if it was just Walter, with a secondary form, we'd have a traditional CV game, with a twist.
If they had actually made us fight mathias, then we'd be really talkin', but legit he only appears a few minutes before the final boss.
Walter being the Belmont's cause for hunting the night is neat, yknow, vamping Sarah and all, but it's not necessarily a strong enough reason to doom your entire bloodline of future descendants to the same cause. mathias in concept, works, since it was a betrayal by his closest friend. mathias manipulated EVERYTHING, including Sarah's death, so that he could gain immortality from Walter's soul through the Crimson stone.
It works. there's a very personal betrayal at play, that mathias has betrayed leon, and so he seeks revenge, deciding to hunt down ALL unholy creatures until the day he and his clan can get his hands on mathias himself. Yknow, a blood feud.
That all said, it was poorly executed.
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It would have been better if Mathias and Leon went to the castle together and met up a few times during the adventure like with Juste and Maxim in HoD.
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It would have been better if Mathias and Leon went to the castle together and met up a few times during the adventure like with Juste and Maxim in HoD.
I love LoI but this all the way. I think there could've been a really interesting story with these two but instead we get a somewhat interesting story. Heck have Mathias be playable or have him help you out in various areas.
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I love LoI but this all the way. I think there could've been a really interesting story with these two but instead we get a somewhat interesting story. Heck have Mathias be playable or have him help you out in various areas.
Yeah. I could also see Mathias delivering the finishing blow to Walter and instantly absorb his soul into the Crimson Stone. He could also be the one to preform the ritual to turn the Whip of Alchemy into the Vampire Killer. Hell, he could be the one to give Leon the whip in the first place. As for Rinaldo, he would just sell potions and other supplies to Leon.
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Yeah him giving Leon the whip would add to the drama of the Dracula vs Belmont struggle. I do enjoy how the Vampire Killer was made in LoI though
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Imagine this,
Mathias Playable initially to help Leon, but in reality to Kill Death, As he and Death come to an agreement, Mathias still defeats him to gain dominance over death, leaving only his rebellion to God left, which he succeeds in becoming a vampire.
The Vampire Killer Ritual could involve blood, Maybe Sara should bite Leon at the moment she is killed, It would explain why only Belmont blood would draw the whip's power and at the same time give an explanation to The Belmont's supernatural feats.
Rinaldo would interact with both Leon and Mathias, Mathias he would initally treat with full respect and slowly see his turning.
A Mathias Campaign could also give tidbits to his feelings towards Elizabetha, Maybe something along the lines of during the crusades, all Mathias asked from God was to keep Elizabetha safe, after so much killing (or whatnot) in the name of God, just time find his dearly beloved has fallen.
There could be a DMC3 style showdown between Dracula and Leon where the outcome would obviously result in the Castlevania Legacy.
Also, Since they were on Common grounds, Leon's choice to Hunt the night with his bloodline would have a stronger influence if the betrayal was more betrayal-y. Example, Mathias could have saved Sara at one point, but instead wanted Leon to lose his loved one so he could "feel his pain".
Lastly, I think that Leon should have a child, not during the game, but at the epilogue, That way the Betrayal is deeper, and the child would grow up hunting the night, for none should repeat Leon and Son's Tragedy.
All LoI really needs is a bit more writing into it to be a satisfying Origins story. Since IGA is more about the Game first, then story, I think getting some help on story would have been a good idea.
what do you guys think?
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^ A good fan fiction would fix that problem. Then just imagine the gameplay.
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cv dungeon please stop PMing me for Mathias x Leon yaoi,
or you will force my hand
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CV yaoi shouldn't even exist :P I see it as having nothing to do with the spirit of what Castlevania is all about. And I personally feel it's insulting to CV in general as that's not how I wish to see my favorite series and CV characters portrayed. *A-hem* Anyways, as far as the Lisa-Dracula romance is concerned; I generally feel that Lisa a very perceptive person to look beyond Dracula's monstrous exterior and see the human part of him that others could not. She was without a doubt a woman ahead of her time as everyone else was superstitious of even the littlest of things.
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CV yaoi shouldn't even exist :P I see it as having nothing to do with the spirit of what Castlevania is all about. And I personally feel it's insulting to CV in general as that's not how I wish to see my favorite series and CV characters portrayed. *A-hem* Anyways, as far as the Lisa-Dracula romance is concerned; I generally feel that Lisa a very perceptive person to look beyond Dracula's monstrous exterior and see the human part of him that others could not. She was without a doubt a woman ahead of her time as everyone else was superstitious of even the littlest of things.
Hehehe Crisis is just trolling. But there are some yaoi castlevania floating around in the webs.
That could be for the argument of reincarnation, you get better each time.
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This irks me too, however just do what I do K.K. Drunkinski; Ignore the Dracula/Mathias connection entirely. In an interview IGA has stated that Mathias is Dracula, but nowhere in the game does it outright state this. It's ambiguous at best. So it leaves it open to personal interpretation. I enjoy LoI more this way cause of the game's lack of story stating that Mathias is Dracula. I'm free to interpret what happens after the game has ended.
I was also scratching my head because of this as well. It didn't make sense. From a story prospective SotN--and how it ended--should have been the last CV entry of the entire series.
See, I half-agree with you on that one. While SotN's ending certainly does wrap things up nicely and with a solidly good ending for everybody involved, I think that Dracula's memory loss is a part of his curse. Not his CVIII Curse, mind you, but the curse that his self-wrought immortality and renunciation of the Divine has brought upon him. The way I've always looked at it, when Alucard defeats Dracula at the end of SotN, the good side of Dracula rises to Heaven and rejoins Lisa; but that hatred for humankind, which in a way became its own independent force (since it uses Chaos as a medium to basically alter time and space to rebuild that monster of a castle on the dot every century), remained on Earth, where it was reincarnated as "Dracula" in the rest of the series. IMO this theory explains why the century-revival thing got even more erratic following SotN, and why certain incarnations of "Dracula" were somewhat OOC in certain respects (the Wraith in HoD, for instance). That idea works in the same premise as the Lords of Shadow, and their good sides rising to Heaven whilst their corrupted halves festered below, which I think adds a bit more to the plausibility of my theory, since LoS had a shit-ton of allusions and references to older-game notions and concepts.
I also adhere more to this one, since it's the only real time Dracula's death looked...pleasant. Every other time he kicks the bucket, there's fire and electricity and explosions and darkness and earthquakes and messes of pain and things that look agonizing. In SotN, he just kind of floats there for a few seconds as that calming pale light envelopes him and rises towards the heavens (pun intended) as it disintegrates him. No explosions, no blood, no vortexes or screams, just...quiet light taking him away, and right after he has the revelation of his immortal lifetime and, in a way, reconciles his beef with God just a little bit. Perhaps it was just the little bit the big man needed/wanted in order to whisk Dracula's more "deserving" half (dare I say his heart?) away to the after. Or perhaps Dracula was able to go to Elisabetha/Lisa all that time, but his anger and hatred (which really in SotN were more attached to the loss of Lisa than a hatred of God) kept him shackled to Earth.
In any case, with how many plotholes and retcons this particular subject has, it's not difficult to string a theory together.
The one discussed with Mina/Soma being reincarnations I'd never really considered or even thought about, but now that I have I totally love it. It fits rather well with my own ideas here. With the final death of Dracula in the DCW, maybe his soul had to still be reincarnated as part of the curse Mathias wrought on himself; but this time around, since his evil half was permanently destroyed, it was his good half that gained the upper hand in the reincarnation and was thusly more prevalent as Soma (instead of Somacula, which was diminished in the good as Dracula's good was diminished in his evil). Since Dracula and Lisa/Elisabetha are literally soulmates in more than one sense, her soul was reincarnated along with his as Mina.
I think it works.
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when exactly did dracula repent?
all he did was apologize to his son, it was pretty much "its too late for me" speech
that doesnt mean he should just quit his hatred against humanity
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when exactly did dracula repent?
all he did was apologize to his son, it was pretty much "its too late for me" speech
that doesnt mean he should just quit his hatred against humanity
Idunno about you, but to me, the final sequence of SotN was pretty clearly Drac regretting being an asshole all that time. He didn't have to say literally, word for word, "I repent my actions against mankind." He got the point across with that whole exchange with Alucard. He didn't get all soft out of the blue, cuz his son was sad. It was when Alucard told him what Lisa's last words were, which were specifically instructing Drac and Al to not blame humanity for her death. And when he heard what she said, he felt bad all the sudden.
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I think that it is the Chaos and/or the dark rituals that are used to resurrect him that keep evil and cloud his judgment. It seems that only he sees someone at the time of his own death that he has a moment or two of clarity. Hence why he asked for forgiveness at the end of SotN yet was still evil in games that occur afterward.
That is the case, then it seems his soul doesn't become truly free until the events of AoS (which just makes the battle against Chaos that much more significant).