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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: theplottwist on June 25, 2015, 03:28:39 PM

Title: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: theplottwist on June 25, 2015, 03:28:39 PM
In SotN, we're all bald from knowing that there are two castles, so no spoiler tags.

My question here for the Castlevania scholars is this: Which of both is the real Dracula's Castle?

I read somewhere that the first castle is Shaft's creation to pull-off the entire Richter gambit. I can't remember where precisely I read that, but it'd didn't exactly fly with me, because the game makes many points about THIS being the true castle, like Alucard's speech on the matter and etc.

Yet, the fact that Richter is given power over this castle, enough to summon his own demons at will, implies that this might indeed be a fake castle, as the true one wouldn't submit to anyone's wishes (much less a Belmont). More evidence to this is in the fact that Dracula's remains are in the second Castle, and all the main, staple bosses of Castlevania are fought inside the the reverse castle.

Now, both castles can't be one and the same. So, can someone explain me this, or is the "Shaft created it" thing the real deal?

NOTE: I'm aware that it's possible to fabricate a fake castle convincing enough to pass off as true, as Harmony of Dissonance did this, officially stated here (http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/cvsl.html). My question refers specifically to SotN.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: X on June 25, 2015, 05:29:44 PM
I believe they are both the real Castlevania. When you look at it this way; The first castle is brought about by Richter thus reflecting his nature. That and it's not as dangerous as the second castle. While the inverted castle is brought about by Shaft/Dracula..? And thus reflects their nature. Kinda like it is in HoD where there are two Maxims, and one castle is more dangerous then the other due to the nature of the individuals in question.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: BLOOD MONKEY on June 25, 2015, 05:47:31 PM
The castle that looks like cheese is the most real.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: SomaCruz on June 25, 2015, 07:22:35 PM
Well, according to the plot of the game, Dracula's Castle rose prematurely than before. The first castle is most likely an copy of when Richter entered five years prior since one of the areas from Rondo of Blood is in Symphony of the Night.

The inverted castle is probably created by Shaft in order to resurrect Count Dracula. As a result, everything was kept the same but flipped.

In short, neither castle is real but as illusions to resurrect Dracula.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Inccubus on June 25, 2015, 08:10:13 PM
It's not a copy because Maria specifically comments to Alucard that it is different from when she was there before which leads to his explanation that the castle is a creature of chaos. Besides that if it wasn't the real castle Alucard wouldn't have risen. They are both the real castle. It isn't limited to a single form or a specific space.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: theplottwist on June 25, 2015, 08:46:51 PM
Quote from: Inccubus on June 25, 2015, 08:10:13 PM
It's not a copy because Maria specifically comments to Alucard that it is different from when she was there before which leads to his explanation that the castle is a creature of chaos. Besides that if it wasn't the real castle Alucard wouldn't have risen. They are both the real castle. It isn't limited to a single form or a specific space.

In fact I kinda think what you and X said makes sense, but the last part I disagree. The castle alone is not reason to wake him up, as it returned many times in the past and Alucard kept sleeping.

Isn't it due to unchecked evil going on the land (due to the lack of a Belmont)?

Plus one thing I think we should consider: The castle's ressurrection coincides with Dracula's. Dracula was not yet ressurrected by the time the castle rose up and Richter took control of it, but it does once Shaft announces that Dracula's ressurrection is near. We see that the castle's return is IMEDIATE to Dracula's in Rondo/Dracula X Chronicles. The same thing happens in Order of Ecclesia.

PoR could be a contradiction, since there is a castle but there is no Dracula. However, Brauner does say that Dracula has been separated from his power, so his ressurrection is in a constant "almost there" state, validating the castle being there.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: beingthehero on June 26, 2015, 04:55:34 AM
I guess the inverted castle was the "REAL Castle" Graham mentioned in AoS, when Soma asked as to how they're in the eclipse when Dracula's castle is in Europe. So we know there's a physical castle, which is usually in ruins, and an otherworldly one. So I imagine that when SotN takes place, the real and spiritual castles had yet to truly merge.

It's all so confusing. I wouldn't put too much thought into it.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Nagumo on June 26, 2015, 07:25:10 AM
Hmm, I think the simplest explanation is that Dracula as master of the demon castle is able to summon it at will, and that's something he immediately does upon being revived because you know, we need a castle for the protagonist to run around in. It may not necessarily be an automatic progress, and although it could be assumed to be the case for the most part, you have to bent over backwards a little bit to make it work in context of SotN. So what I think is that both Dracula and his castle are able to be brought forth independently from each other, it just so happens to be usually mere moments between each event, barring exceptions like SotN and PoR. So I think both the normal and inverted castles are legitimate. I'm also just talking in context of the "IGAverse" here, who knows what pre-SotN developers had in mind for the rules.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: X on June 26, 2015, 10:03:33 AM
Well, before IGA took the reigns all the games had Dracula resurrected first then Castlevania itself would follow. In CVII Dracula never got the chance to bring about Castlevania cause as soon as he was revived, Simon put him in the ground again.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: theplottwist on June 26, 2015, 10:30:21 AM
Quote from: X on June 26, 2015, 10:03:33 AM
Well, before IGA took the reigns all the games had Dracula resurrected first then Castlevania itself would follow. In CVII Dracula never got the chance to bring about Castlevania cause as soon as he was revived, Simon put him in the ground again.
Quote from: Nagumo on June 26, 2015, 07:25:10 AM
Hmm, I think the simplest explanation is that Dracula as master of the demon castle is able to summon it at will, and that's something he immediately does upon being revived because you know, we need a castle for the protagonist to run around in. It may not necessarily be an automatic progress, and although it could be assumed to be the case for the most part, you have to bent over backwards a little bit to make it work in context of SotN. So what I think is that both Dracula and his castle are able to be brought forth independently from each other, it just so happens to be usually mere moments between each event, barring exceptions like SotN and PoR. So I think both the normal and inverted castles are legitimate. I'm also just talking in context of the "IGAverse" here, who knows what pre-SotN developers had in mind for the rules.

I think these explanations make sense, and X touched exactly on a point I'm trying to see for the castle's ressurrection and how Dracula can be brought back and destroyed even before the castle is able to return. And fits with Nagumo's "not an automatic progress."

I thought before that "summoning the demon castle" was one of Dracula's powers, but I assumed it was kinda an automatic quality as he's the Dark Lord and the castle has a mind of itself and needs to be there when the Dark Lord arrives. But now I think otherwise.

Quote from: beingthehero on June 26, 2015, 04:55:34 AM
I guess the inverted castle was the "REAL Castle" Graham mentioned in AoS, when Soma asked as to how they're in the eclipse when Dracula's castle is in Europe. So we know there's a physical castle, which is usually in ruins, and an otherworldly one. So I imagine that when SotN takes place, the real and spiritual castles had yet to truly merge.

This actually makes a lot of sense too, but there are some problems, as the first castle was able to "materialize from the mist" and actually manifest many of the "true castle's" characteristics. But well, so did the castle in HoD, and it was a fake.

Yet, what you said about they merging would fit with the case of HoD, again, as the castle was a fake , but Death confirms that once both were merged, they'd become the true castle.

Thank you guys for responding to this. I was having a really hard time thinking this through, but now I see more clearly. I'm still looking for an official statement on the matter, but I think what you said actually is the nearest to an explanation to this question.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: beingthehero on June 26, 2015, 02:31:36 PM
Quote from: X on June 26, 2015, 10:03:33 AM
Well, before IGA took the reigns all the games had Dracula resurrected first then Castlevania itself would follow.

Not necessarily. I think you're forgetting about Bloodlines, where Castlevania has already returned yet Bartley is still carrying around his coffin. He doesn't seem to resurrect until he's in Castle Proserpina.

Also in Castlevania II: Belmont's Revenge, Dracula's still alive and Castlevania doesn't appear until Christopher destroys the four elemental castles.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Charlotte-nyo:3 on June 26, 2015, 05:05:51 PM
Harmony of Dissonance could shed some light on the devs' thinking about this subject since the castle there having two layers may have been justified as a similar phenomenon as what occurred in SotN. Maxim and Richter play similar roles.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: X on June 26, 2015, 06:29:03 PM
Quote
Not necessarily. I think you're forgetting about Bloodlines, where Castlevania has already returned yet Bartley is still carrying around his coffin. He doesn't seem to resurrect until he's in Castle Proserpina.

No, I didn't forget and it was on my mind when I wrote my last post. Note: In-game the first stage says "Ruins of Castle Dracula. Romania". Castlevania itself is still in ruins which you can clearly see while traversing the stage.

Quote
Also in Castlevania II: Belmont's Revenge, Dracula's still alive and Castlevania doesn't appear until Christopher destroys the four elemental castles.

Dracula was defeated in The Adventure and his castle was destroyed. He spent the next 15 years regaining his power before he would summon back castlevania. A smart move on his part cause if he summoned back castlevania while weak Christopher would just backtrack and 86 his @$$. Dracula needed his full strength back so laying low was the better move for him. Dracula wanted to use Soleiyu's power for himself but couldn't as it was a divine power and not of darkness. The four castles were probably acting as a security measure so the Dracula could stall for time. And since Christopher destroyed the four guardians Dracula used that power to bring himself up to speed and also summon up Castlevania. This is theoretical mind you, but it works..?  Yay? Nay? :-\
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: The Puritan on June 26, 2015, 11:25:13 PM
My understanding is that the 'real' castle was the second one and the first one was its reflection, its shadow, in the physical world.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Belmont Stakes on June 28, 2015, 07:05:09 PM
I am willing to bet that ruins from the actual castle were used to create and are contained within the first structure and as such it is actually just an extension of the castle as a whole. As was previously stated this castle is an incarnation of chaos so it stands to reason that both castles are actually the same just mirrors of one another. Remember vampires and mirrors go together like government and public welfare.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: BLOOD MONKEY on June 28, 2015, 07:23:11 PM
Goddammit you guys, I already told you. :P
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: zangetsu468 on June 28, 2015, 11:50:08 PM
I always believed they were both the real Castlevania, both were already there before Dracula's resurrection was complete.
In Alucard's canon he requires collection of the body parts (relics) of Vlad in order to enter the real Throne Room (middle of the map) in the Inverted Castle. One would think then that this is essential in his resurrection, as his body parts were still scattered before this.

I get the feeling that the first Castle, was more like a transition between the physical realm and the Underworld, while the IC was actually underworld itself, which would explain why it reflects the first Castle. Galamoth in SOTN is described as a being with "plans to take over the Netherworld". Therefore if this wasn't the case, why would he be loitering in the IC? It seems to infer that the IC is at least easily accessible to the Underworld.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: theplottwist on June 29, 2015, 02:25:48 AM
Quote from: zangetsu468 on June 28, 2015, 11:50:08 PM
I get the feeling that the first Castle, was more like a transition between the physical realm and the Underworld, while the IC was actually underworld itself, which would explain why it reflects the first Castle. Galamoth in SOTN is described as a being with "plans to take over the Netherworld". Therefore if this wasn't the case, why would he be loitering in the IC? It seems to infer that the IC is at least easily accessible to the Underworld.

This fits with Shanoa's assertion that the Castle Keep is in Hell itself, and Arikado's assertion about the castle being a spiritual plane/world;

One detail: Galamoth's original description in japanese says "一万年計画で魔界の王の座を狙う魔神 (Demon targeting the throne of the Makai in a 10,000 years plan)"

I don't actually think that the castle in SotN IS the demon world/underworld, because IGA said before that Dracula's soul is sent to the "Makai" (The same demon world that Galamoth wants to rule) after he dies. So Dracula in SotN is being summoned from the demon world to Earth, therefore the castle can't be this demon world, as we see that Alucard stands between Dracula and Earth in the final battle. Dracula is not ressurrected, and Alucard is the one who is dragged into the portal and banishes Dracula before he can leave it.

But ruling over Dracula's castle probably is a symbol of "ruling over the demon world" as Dracula is the Dark Lord over all demons himself.

We're focusing too much on what we don't know about the castle, I think. What do we know, after all? Let's list it:


All these details seem to say that the castle only becomes the TRUE castle once Dracula (or the designated Dark Lord at the time) sits on its throne and claims ownership of it. Until then it's "incomplete" or in a "transitioning state." Something like, if it's divided or incomplete, Dracula "aligns" it to become the real one.

So, maybe both castles in SotN are "fake" ones, until Dracula ressurrects or both are fused (which effectivelly means that yes, both are the same one, but each is incomplete, something you guys have already said)?
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: AxeLord on June 29, 2015, 02:23:33 PM
Quote
It can be brought back from the chaos inside humans alone (Ricordanza of the God Abyss)

Doesn't the intro for Portrait of Ruin also support this? From what I remember, the return of Castlevania was a result of the deaths of millions during WWII. Plus, I'm not sure if the canonicity of Ricordanza of the God Abyss is completely legitimate.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Nagumo on June 29, 2015, 02:51:53 PM
The opening kind off glossed over this, but the manual mentions Brauner used the souls of the people who died in the war to summon the castle, so it's not an automatic process.

Using Dracula's throne to revive is a really bizarre concept by the way. I wonder if it isn't just a translation goof.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: theplottwist on June 29, 2015, 03:16:01 PM
Quote from: Nagumo on June 29, 2015, 02:51:53 PM
Using Dracula's throne to revive is a really bizarre concept by the way. I wonder if it isn't just a translation goof.

I don't think it is, because Brauner's whole shenanigan is separating Dracula from the castle through the Throne Room. But I ALSO think it may be not a "requirement" to ressurrect Dracula like this line makes it looks like.

Maybe Death was referring to the fact that in this specific case, Dracula needed the throne because he just happened to be in the Throne Room replenishing himself when Brauner separated him from his castle, thus breaking his connection with the source of his powers. Or maybe Brauner interrupted Dracula's ownership of the castle before he could establish it, thus leaving him in an incomplete ressurrection state.

Except for the ownership concept, on which the entire game hinges on, never mind the rest. Death is quite clear on the revival thing, and leaves no room for so much interpretation. Jonathan also confirms right after that Dracula is the one restoring the castle's power, not the contrary.

BUT the conversation with Eric right after this seems to imply that Brauner indeed sealed an incomplete Dracula, and not an "totally unrevived" one:

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: AxeLord on June 29, 2015, 02:23:33 PM
Doesn't the intro for Portrait of Ruin also support this? From what I remember, the return of Castlevania was a result of the deaths of millions during WWII. Plus, I'm not sure if the canonicity of Ricordanza of the God Abyss is completely legitimate.

I think it's safe to assume it as canon, as it was supervised by IGA himself, and there is no word on the matter about it being non-canon. And we know IGA is somewhat nuts over canonicity of his storyline as he himself has stated many times before (A recent talk I had with T. Rodriguez confirmed that IGA worries/worried a lot about the whole "canon or not canon" debate over Castlevania).
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Nagumo on June 30, 2015, 12:18:58 AM
You talked with the guy from Order of Shadows? Could you elaborate on that?
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: zangetsu468 on July 03, 2015, 07:53:27 PM
Quote from: theplottwist on June 29, 2015, 02:25:48 AM
This fits with Shanoa's assertion that the Castle Keep is in Hell itself, and Arikado's assertion about the castle being a spiritual plane/world;

Yes, Shanoa required the 3 Cerberus Glyphs to enter the "Gates to Hell" i.e. the real keep being in "Hell" itself.
Would this mean that OOE's Dracula is at full power then, since he has claimed the throne and fulfilled these requirements? There was some debate over whether this was indeed the case, I am inclined given the evidence to believe Dracula is at full power. The opening sequence specifically shows him sitting on the throne, which is exactly where he his after Barlowe's sacrifice.

Quote from: theplottwist on June 29, 2015, 02:25:48 AM
All these details seem to say that the castle only becomes the TRUE castle once Dracula (or the designated Dark Lord at the time) sits on its throne and claims ownership of it. Until then it's "incomplete" or in a "transitioning state." Something like, if it's divided or incomplete, Dracula "aligns" it to become the real one.

I agree that Dracula is not at full power, this wouldn't make sense to the canon. Two things though:
- in the English version of SOTN he states "Here's my True Power!"
- in his final form in SOTN Dracula is actually sitting on a throne.

His final form in SOTN also seems stronger than his final form in Rondo (unless it's the 3 form Dracula of Rondo Chronicles, I can't comment as I haven't played this).

Thoughts?
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Belmont Stakes on August 02, 2015, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: Kokushibyō on June 25, 2015, 05:47:31 PM
The castle that looks like cheese is the most real.

Someone needs to tell IGA to make that game. Cheeselvania: Cheesy Tears, or maybe When The Moon Hits Your Eye.

Cheese your undead balls off.

The Undead Limberger Rises, Revenge of the Fromager.

Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: X on August 02, 2015, 11:49:53 AM
The haunted Berg  ;D
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Belmont Stakes on August 05, 2015, 04:51:19 PM
Bane of the Flying Mouse.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: BLOOD MONKEY on August 06, 2015, 01:28:54 AM
Spooky Blue Moon.
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on August 06, 2015, 02:32:53 AM
The Tragic Brie
Title: Re: What Castle is the real one?
Post by: X on August 06, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
Galbani Temple