Topic: What Castle is the real one?

[BLOOD MONKEY]

Goddammit you guys, I already told you.

[zangetsu468]

I always believed they were both the real Castlevania, both were already there before Dracula's resurrection was complete.
In Alucard's canon he requires collection of the body parts (relics) of Vlad in order to enter the real Throne Room (middle of the map) in the Inverted Castle. One would think then that this is essential in his resurrection, as his body parts were still scattered before this.

I get the feeling that the first Castle, was more like a transition between the physical realm and the Underworld, while the IC was actually underworld itself, which would explain why it reflects the first Castle. Galamoth in SOTN is described as a being with "plans to take over the Netherworld". Therefore if this wasn't the case, why would he be loitering in the IC? It seems to infer that the IC is at least easily accessible to the Underworld.

[theplottwist]

I get the feeling that the first Castle, was more like a transition between the physical realm and the Underworld, while the IC was actually underworld itself, which would explain why it reflects the first Castle. Galamoth in SOTN is described as a being with "plans to take over the Netherworld". Therefore if this wasn't the case, why would he be loitering in the IC? It seems to infer that the IC is at least easily accessible to the Underworld.

This fits with Shanoa's assertion that the Castle Keep is in Hell itself, and Arikado's assertion about the castle being a spiritual plane/world;

One detail: Galamoth's original description in japanese says "一万年計画で魔界の王の座を狙う魔神 (Demon targeting the throne of the Makai in a 10,000 years plan)"

I don't actually think that the castle in SotN IS the demon world/underworld, because IGA said before that Dracula's soul is sent to the "Makai" (The same demon world that Galamoth wants to rule) after he dies. So Dracula in SotN is being summoned from the demon world to Earth, therefore the castle can't be this demon world, as we see that Alucard stands between Dracula and Earth in the final battle. Dracula is not ressurrected, and Alucard is the one who is dragged into the portal and banishes Dracula before he can leave it.

But ruling over Dracula's castle probably is a symbol of "ruling over the demon world" as Dracula is the Dark Lord over all demons himself.

We're focusing too much on what we don't know about the castle, I think. What do we know, after all? Let's list it:

• The castle is a creature/extension of chaos and can take many incarnations (SotN)
• There is a spiritual castle, and a physical one. The spiritual one is the TRUE castle (AoS)
• It is a symbol of Dracula's magic (DoS)
• It's appearance coincides with Dracula's ressurrection (DoS)
• The Throne Room is needed to ressurrect Dracula (PoR)
• The castle can be shattered in at least two parts, which will cause both to be fake/transient until they are fused (HoD)
• It can ressurrect in different places (PoR)
• Cults can ressurrect the castle without Dracula (Ricordanza of the God Abyss)
• It can be brought back from the chaos inside humans alone (Ricordanza of the God Abyss)

All these details seem to say that the castle only becomes the TRUE castle once Dracula (or the designated Dark Lord at the time) sits on its throne and claims ownership of it. Until then it's "incomplete" or in a "transitioning state." Something like, if it's divided or incomplete, Dracula "aligns" it to become the real one.

So, maybe both castles in SotN are "fake" ones, until Dracula ressurrects or both are fused (which effectivelly means that yes, both are the same one, but each is incomplete, something you guys have already said)?

[AxeLord]

It can be brought back from the chaos inside humans alone (Ricordanza of the God Abyss)

Doesn't the intro for Portrait of Ruin also support this? From what I remember, the return of Castlevania was a result of the deaths of millions during WWII. Plus, I'm not sure if the canonicity of Ricordanza of the God Abyss is completely legitimate.

[Nagumo]

The opening kind off glossed over this, but the manual mentions Brauner used the souls of the people who died in the war to summon the castle, so it's not an automatic process.

Using Dracula's throne to revive is a really bizarre concept by the way. I wonder if it isn't just a translation goof.

[theplottwist]

Using Dracula's throne to revive is a really bizarre concept by the way. I wonder if it isn't just a translation goof.

I don't think it is, because Brauner's whole shenanigan is separating Dracula from the castle through the Throne Room. But I ALSO think it may be not a "requirement" to ressurrect Dracula like this line makes it looks like.

Maybe Death was referring to the fact that in this specific case, Dracula needed the throne because he just happened to be in the Throne Room replenishing himself when Brauner separated him from his castle, thus breaking his connection with the source of his powers. Or maybe Brauner interrupted Dracula's ownership of the castle before he could establish it, thus leaving him in an incomplete ressurrection state.

Except for the ownership concept, on which the entire game hinges on, never mind the rest. Death is quite clear on the revival thing, and leaves no room for so much interpretation. Jonathan also confirms right after that Dracula is the one restoring the castle's power, not the contrary.

BUT the conversation with Eric right after this seems to imply that Brauner indeed sealed an incomplete Dracula, and not an "totally unrevived" one:

(click to show/hide)

Eric: This power! Has Dracula been revived?!

Jonathan: Afraid so.

Charlotte: Brauner was sealing Dracula away, so when we destroyed
           him...

Eric: Strange Even Brauner's seals would be easily Broken by
      Dracula's power, and yet--

Charlotte: !! Perhaps Dracula still hasn't revived completely!

Eric: Perhaps.

Doesn't the intro for Portrait of Ruin also support this? From what I remember, the return of Castlevania was a result of the deaths of millions during WWII. Plus, I'm not sure if the canonicity of Ricordanza of the God Abyss is completely legitimate.

I think it's safe to assume it as canon, as it was supervised by IGA himself, and there is no word on the matter about it being non-canon. And we know IGA is somewhat nuts over canonicity of his storyline as he himself has stated many times before (A recent talk I had with T. Rodriguez confirmed that IGA worries/worried a lot about the whole "canon or not canon" debate over Castlevania).

[Nagumo]

You talked with the guy from Order of Shadows? Could you elaborate on that?

[zangetsu468]

This fits with Shanoa's assertion that the Castle Keep is in Hell itself, and Arikado's assertion about the castle being a spiritual plane/world;

Yes, Shanoa required the 3 Cerberus Glyphs to enter the "Gates to Hell" i.e. the real keep being in "Hell" itself.
Would this mean that OOE's Dracula is at full power then, since he has claimed the throne and fulfilled these requirements? There was some debate over whether this was indeed the case, I am inclined given the evidence to believe Dracula is at full power. The opening sequence specifically shows him sitting on the throne, which is exactly where he his after Barlowe's sacrifice.

All these details seem to say that the castle only becomes the TRUE castle once Dracula (or the designated Dark Lord at the time) sits on its throne and claims ownership of it. Until then it's "incomplete" or in a "transitioning state." Something like, if it's divided or incomplete, Dracula "aligns" it to become the real one.

I agree that Dracula is not at full power, this wouldn't make sense to the canon. Two things though:
- in the English version of SOTN he states "Here's my True Power!"
- in his final form in SOTN Dracula is actually sitting on a throne.

His final form in SOTN also seems stronger than his final form in Rondo (unless it's the 3 form Dracula of Rondo Chronicles, I can't comment as I haven't played this).

Thoughts?

[Belmont Stakes]

The castle that looks like cheese is the most real.

Someone needs to tell IGA to make that game. Cheeselvania: Cheesy Tears, or maybe When The Moon Hits Your Eye.

Cheese your undead balls off.

The Undead Limberger Rises, Revenge of the Fromager.

[X]

The haunted Berg 

[Belmont Stakes]

Bane of the Flying Mouse.

[BLOOD MONKEY]

Spooky Blue Moon.

[Shiroi Koumori]

The Tragic Brie

[X]

Galbani Temple