Topic: My Return and another LoS topic.

[Hanniballistic]

DING DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner! An extra illlustrated critic with no literature background, the epic!

Sarcasm, the poor man's wit.

Do you have to be so arrogant?

[uzo]

ITT Ahasverus being off putting and presumptuous. Oh, right, that's all threads.

[Valtiel]

Well, to his credit you need to consider EVERY LoS discussion is broken up by a "LoS isn't CV/it sucks/SotN's story was better!" rant every 2 posts, by the same 3-4 people. If you do happen to like LoS, I guess it can be quite annoying, expecially when some of the criticism is so far fetched.
I think subjectivity is to be respected, but if you go over 15 lines calling LoS' story crap and then you say you foundt LoI involving or its characters more "nuanced", you at least rise the suspicion of intellectual dishonesty.

But it's the same every time a new game comes out: the people who like it generally stop talking about it quite soon, while the "haters" go on forever, and eventually a fan will go on a witch hunt to fight them.... and we pop out the popcorn  .

[Black Cat]

But it's the same every time a new game comes out: the people who like it generally stop talking about it quite soon, while the "haters" go on forever, and eventually a fan will go on a witch hunt to fight them.... and we pop out the popcorn  .

Perfect description of the board at gamefaqs right about now.

[Alutwon]

Well, to his credit you need to consider EVERY LoS discussion is broken up by a "LoS isn't CV/it sucks/SotN's story was better!" rant every 2 posts, by the same 3-4 people. If you do happen to like LoS, I guess it can be quite annoying, expecially when some of the criticism is so far fetched.
I think subjectivity is to be respected, but if you go over 15 lines calling LoS' story crap and then you say you foundt LoI involving or its characters more "nuanced", you at least rise the suspicion of intellectual dishonesty.

But it's the same every time a new game comes out: the people who like it generally stop talking about it quite soon, while the "haters" go on forever, and eventually a fan will go on a witch hunt to fight them.... and we pop out the popcorn  .

/Thread

[thernz]

LoI's characters aren't more nuanced at all. lol.

[RichterB]

I think subjectivity is to be respected, but if you go over 15 lines calling LoS' story crap and then you say you foundt LoI involving or its characters more "nuanced", you at least rise the suspicion of intellectual dishonesty.

Valtiel, that was pretty rude. Gotta call it. Look, I hate to say it, but by and large (and to keep it simple), Gabriel was an emo, man-grunting oaf, and Zobek was the power-mad villain who twirls his mustache while he recites poetry. I'm sorry, but how much more stale/cliche can you get than saying the Devil is the dark mastermind at the 11th hour? ("Muhahahaha, you monkey, Belmont!") How is that clearly & significantly better than LoI to the extent that you can talk so sardonically of an opinion and place LoS on a high, untouchable pedestal? I didn't say LoI was fine literature by any means, but it kept me more engaged than some MacGuffin story about a fragmented, all-powerful mask (IE: Twilight Princess), and was more rooted in the mythology of Castlevania itself. LoI wasn't perfect, and I'm not a huge fan of IGA, but it was a more centralized, personal story when you think of the way it is slowly revealed how Leon and Rinaldo's lives intersect with the games of Walter and the conspiracy of Mathias.

PS: Just so you know I wasn't pulling the Rygar stuff out of thin air. Think about LoS' Necromancer's Abyss, and then look at this: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/rygar/rygarps2-8.jpg
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/rygar/rygarps2-11.jpg

LoI's characters aren't more nuanced at all. lol.

OK...And as for the "nuanced" quote, look at Rinaldo. Here we have a guy who suffered at the hands of Walter, having his family killed by his vampire-turned daughter, and in turn having to sadly kill her, his own flesh and blood. Then he tries to get revenge, but finds he is hopelessly outmatched. He ends up setting up shop right in the backyard of his family's murderer, his everyday life taunted by the fact that he can't get closure from Walter, whose home is within his sight. In fact, he ends up becoming a begrudging accomplice to Walter, helping send many adventurers to their death by aiding them in a battle with Walter that is merely set up as a game by Walter. Rinaldo has essentially made himself a captive of Walter's; yet even though he could walk away from this, he cannot free himself. And yet, even after seeing so many fail, and hiding his personal pain by his unwillingness to address his story with adventurers, he still holds enough hope to try to help Leon--all the while knowing he may be assisting him toward death. In the process, Leon gets him to open up, his cool exterior giving way to rage, and in turn Rinaldo's pain gives Leon additional motivation. And in the end, Rinaldo not only assists in the defeat of Walter, but also the makings of Dracula and the means by which to fight Dracula. It's a satisfying, very human character arc that also feels relevant to the Castlevania universe, timeline or not.

[thernz]

Oh, I'd concede that Rinaldo is a more layered character than anyone in LoS. Though I find the whole "I think I'll charge people who want to take on Walter" odd as well as how he is able live on even subsistence when the place is locked in eternal darkness. But the rest of LoI's cast is rather flat. Well, I mean Leon goes through a little nice development from brash and arrogant to someone who realizes their duty, albeit still arrogant (I guess defeating a slew of monsters does cement Leon from thinking otherwise). But yeah.

[Joachim]

Arrogant? I couldn't even dream of calling him arrogant, he struck me as far more humble than that. Confident, occasionally, but never arrogant.

[thernz]

Leon mutters, "What a bothersome." when he realizes he has to take down a slew of boss monsters before reaching Walter and comes to the castle with no weapons. Those would weigh out the whole name thing imo. He's just honest. The arrogance itself isn't a full-fledged trait, but a hint of spice to him. And before acquiring the Vampire Killer, he seemed just perfectly focused with saving Sara, though there were some hints of development as he learned about Rinaldo's own trials and tribulations. The change was finally brought out when the Vampire Killer was constructed.

[Joachim]

well, yeah; "What a bothersome" implying his distaste for Walter's game: if you were going to try and save your beloved, surely you would scoff if the kidnapper treated it as nothing but a game, throwing meaningless obstacles in your way purely for the sake of his enjoyment.

i-i don't see how that radiates arrogance at all

[X]

well, yeah; "What a bothersome" implying his distaste for Walter's game: if you were going to try and save your beloved, surely you would scoff if the kidnapper treated it as nothing but a game, throwing meaningless obstacles in your way purely for the sake of his enjoyment.

i-i don't see how that radiates arrogance at all

Agreed. Leon never shows any arrogence in the game's story what-so-ever. The only ones who're arrogent were the villains. And they all had their @$$' handed to them...on a silver platter. It should've included that fake dracula pu**y, Mathias 

-X

[Hanniballistic]

Well, to his credit you need to consider EVERY LoS discussion is broken up by a "LoS isn't CV/it sucks/SotN's story was better!" rant every 2 posts, by the same 3-4 people. If you do happen to like LoS, I guess it can be quite annoying, expecially when some of the criticism is so far fetched.
I think subjectivity is to be respected, but if you go over 15 lines calling LoS' story crap and then you say you foundt LoI involving or its characters more "nuanced", you at least rise the suspicion of intellectual dishonesty.

But it's the same every time a new game comes out: the people who like it generally stop talking about it quite soon, while the "haters" go on forever, and eventually a fan will go on a witch hunt to fight them.... and we pop out the popcorn  .

Yeah, you're pretty condescending too.  You are the only two I've noticed that go out of their way to show how smart you are and bring up insanely boring near-essay length critiques of other people's opinions.  You guys go overkill when there is no need to.

[thernz]

I would assume that, "What a bothersome" in the context of, "What a bothersome that I have to fight these horrific beasts that have killed countless men" is a bit arrogant, reinforced at how casually he states how he'll just pick up any dead man's sword. It's not really a character flaw for Leon, like I said. Just more of a subtle, unexplored quirk.

Like how snarly and snooty Juste is toward Death and Wannabe-Dracula!

[Valtiel]

Valtiel, that was pretty rude. Gotta call it. Look, I hate to say it, but by and large (and to keep it simple), Gabriel was an emo, man-grunting oaf, and Zobek was the power-mad villain who twirls his mustache while he recites poetry. I'm sorry, but how much more stale/cliche can you get than saying the Devil is the dark mastermind at the 11th hour? ("Muhahahaha, you monkey, Belmont!") How is that clearly & significantly better than LoI to the extent that you can talk so sardonically of an opinion and place LoS on a high, untouchable pedestal? I didn't say LoI was fine literature by any means, but it kept me more engaged than some MacGuffin story about a fragmented, all-powerful mask (IE: Twilight Princess), and was more rooted in the mythology of Castlevania itself. LoI wasn't perfect, and I'm not a huge fan of IGA, but it was a more centralized, personal story when you think of the way it is slowly revealed how Leon and Rinaldo's lives intersect with the games of Walter and the conspiracy of Mathias.

....

OK...And as for the "nuanced" quote, look at Rinaldo. Here we have a guy who suffered at the hands of Walter, having his family killed by his vampire-turned daughter, and in turn having to sadly kill her, his own flesh and blood. Then he tries to get revenge, but finds he is hopelessly outmatched.
.....

He ends up setting up shop right in the backyard of his family's murderer, his everyday life taunted by the fact that he can't get closure from Walter, whose home is within his sight. In fact, he ends up becoming a begrudging accomplice to Walter, helping send many adventurers to their death by aiding them in a battle with Walter that is merely set up as a game by Walter. Rinaldo has essentially made himself a captive of Walter's; yet even though he could walk away from this, he cannot free himself. And yet, even after seeing so many fail, and hiding his personal pain by his unwillingness to address his story with adventurers, he still holds enough hope to try to help Leon--all the while knowing he may be assisting him toward death. In the process, Leon gets him to open up, his cool exterior giving way to rage, and in turn Rinaldo's pain gives Leon additional motivation. And in the end, Rinaldo not only assists in the defeat of Walter, but also the makings of Dracula and the means by which to fight Dracula. It's a satisfying, very human character arc that also feels relevant to the Castlevania universe, timeline or not.

Now, two things.

First, I wasn't specifically aiming at you with that comment. However, I can't agree on your analysis. I'm glad you appreciate Rinaldo's character (it's definitely the "best" character in LoI, and in fact, possibly the only one who actually gets some sort of backstory and personality), but once again... you speak of clichès for LoS and then type the text I bolded with a straight face?

I'm not stating LoS is better or sensibly better than that; but I cannot see how LoI is any better than LoS. In terms of the "quantity" of the exposition (both in plot and character development) both games are more or less equal, with focus on fleshing out enemies and NPCs more than the protagonist. But LoI plays a lot safer, sticking close to the clichès of the genre and the saga.
The things that bothered me the most about LoI (aside from the character design - it's the game that made me decide Kojima was unfit for Castlevania, and the only design I'd save is Mathias) is that it bored me. An origin story is often the second most exciting moment in a saga (the conclusion being the most exciting) because it's supposed to set up everything and play with hints and plot hooks for future games. LoI was incredibly plain, moving from A to B and throwing the Dracula bomb like it was an afterthought. A lot of people complain that LoS pulls in Dracula at the very end; was LoI any different? You spend most of the game dealing with characters that got basically nothing to do with CV, and then you get the entire saga set up in 3 minutes.

Now, LoS fundamentally does the same, but the difference is - LoS isn't an origins story. It's the prequel to an origins story. While LoI did set up the Belmonts, and Drac, and Death, and what's done is done and that fantasy is set in stone (dead, if you want), in the LoS continuum the origin story is still to be  written. How does Gabe become Drac? Why do the Belmonts hunt him? How does Death come in the equation? It's all there to be written. LoS merely introduced us to the characters.
And while everything in fantasy narration can be by now defined "clichèd" (literally), LoS' story definitely felt fresher to me, expecially in the CV context. Satan may be a clichè, but it's not a CV clichè. The masks plot is definitely better played out that the LoI stones, and with a decent amount of mystery left up for future games. And so on.

LoS' story is not groundbreaking in any way, but I'm strongly persuaded it is in context with CV; expecially with the recent trend of CV games who have been focusing on exploring, explaining (and justifying themselves on) tiny plot details without moving the story of one inch - Sorrows aside, sadly.