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Offline crisis

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #240 on: January 06, 2012, 03:24:12 PM »
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I'm sure if I were to sell my Limited Edition Konamistyle Order of Ecclesia w/rare signed promo material, translucent Shanoa poster & specialized enhanced game cartridge, i would get at least $300.00 #ballin

Offline C Belmont

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #241 on: January 06, 2012, 04:48:19 PM »
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Konami already has a wealth of sales data, so they already have a good idea how large the Castlevania fanbase actually is.  But for all of their numbers, they don't hear the voice of the fans --OA is an opportunity for the fans to speak out and tell Konami what we want.  Once Konami actually hears that voice and acknowledges our desires, then it's up to them to do their homework, and then decide if they are willing and able to meet those needs.
That's what LoS was...

Hardly
LOS was aimed at drawing in new fans first and appealing to the current fanbase second, Cox practically said so himself.

Offline e105beta

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #242 on: January 06, 2012, 06:17:01 PM »
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I'm not so sure LoS sold quite as well as your tone there seems to indicate, at least given the sales numbers I've seen. It certainly sold better than the 2D games; that's expected given its genre (3D action), but that was also to be expected given its budget. The 2D games generally have a small budget, while LoS had a medium sized budget. Those result in very different sales levels needed to declare success or failure. By all the metrics I've seen both LoS and the 2D games have gotten past the "success" lines. What they haven't done is go insanely far beyond that to the point where they're making money hand over fist like some of the really well known and big name games out this gen.

1,000,000 sales is 1,000,000 sales. Each of those copies was money in the pocket for Konami.

People should not act like they know for sure how Lords of Shadow sold unless they have reliable figures to back it up. There is a difference in how many copies are shipped to stores and how many are actually bought by consumers.

The completed listings on eBay, which I've found to be a decent measure of something's worth, tell me that Lords of Shadow can now be had at bargain bin prices (as low as $10, usually $15). For a game that was released a year and a few months ago, I'm not sure that is very promising. This generally means that there are more Lords of Shadow games out there than people want.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50

I mean, hell. Order of Ecclesia is commanding and selling for more respectable prices than that thing, and it was a $30 handheld.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+order+of+ecclesia&_sacat=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&LH_Complete=1&_odkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

Well, combine the "at least 1,000,000 shipped" and the, despite its flaws, VGchartz sales numbers:
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales-data/35060/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/game/35059/castlevania-lords-of-shadow/

500,000 copies aren't going to be shipped to suit a 10,000 copy demand, so I think it's reasonable enough to assume that Lords of Shadow sold at least 900,000, which, yes, could leave 100,000 copies floating around with very little demand and thus justify the current price listings. Either way, Lords of Shadow didn't have close to a blockbuster budget (marketing can make up to 60% of a game's budget and LoS had little to none, the engine was developed in-house which saves plenty of money, etc.) and managed to sell, at the lowest estimate, more than twice as well as the handhelds, and made more than enough money for Konami to justify a bigger budgeted sequel.

That's what LoS was...

Hardly
LOS was aimed at drawing in new fans first and appealing to the current fanbase second, Cox practically said so himself.

Yes. Konami knew what Castlevania fans have been buying, knew it wasn't very profitable, then decided they weren't willing to continue on the current course and made Lords of Shadow. They decided they didn't want to cater to the "300,000" and made something new.

All OA is stating is that they want the handhelds or the classics, or something akin, only shinier. Konami not giving IGA big budgets was the decision not to do that back then.


Offline beingthehero

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #243 on: January 06, 2012, 06:39:39 PM »
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I really, really wouldn't trust VGChartz for anything, for better or for worse.

Offline e105beta

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #244 on: January 06, 2012, 07:00:57 PM »
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You know, I constantly hear people say that, but yet to hear why.

Sure it tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two, but it's accurate within reasonable expectations.

Offline Neobelmont

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #245 on: January 07, 2012, 12:06:50 AM »
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You know, I constantly hear people say that, but yet to hear why.

Sure it tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two, but it's accurate within reasonable expectations.

Heck Los did better than Enslaved, Other M, Vanquished and I recall posting a long comment on that but I do not have any other source for sells also it would have done better if other bigger games did not come out at that time. Meanwhile it did not get a big budget like other actioners for commercials and stuff God of war, darksiders,dante's inferno, and bayonetta even with the lack of sales compared to them Los still did good. all of them broke 2 million sales at least at one point. Los is really a mouth to mouth kind of thing not only that it would of sold more if it did not cause so much chaos within the fanbase, but then again how much fanbase is there to make a difference. Meanwhile back to what I was saying this is the only way for me to get my information on sale's as well I have no other way what is the saying hater's going to hate or something right?
(click to show/hide)
Come on now this was going to happen eventually  :P

Offline Charlotte-nyo:3

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #246 on: January 07, 2012, 12:14:19 AM »
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1,000,000 sales is 1,000,000 sales. Each of those copies was money in the pocket for Konami.

People wouldn't last long in business if they only looked at sales and ignore costs. Both have to be considered to calculate profit and actually determine how well something did.

You know, I constantly hear people say that, but yet to hear why.

I don't know if it's true or not, but I have heard at least one explanation on other boards as to why. Supposedly in the past that they've accidentally posted sales numbers for games that were delayed a few weeks and not shipped on the week they were supposed to. Thus comes the criticism that they're "just making it up."

Sure it tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two, but it's accurate within reasonable expectations.

Are you using the sales numbers they post for games that are also released in the same period by NPD as a control?


Offline e105beta

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #247 on: January 07, 2012, 01:51:25 AM »
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People wouldn't last long in business if they only looked at sales and ignore costs. Both have to be considered to calculate profit and actually determine how well something did.

Of course, but between the sales, Konami's excitement at said sales, Cox's claimed budget, the confirmation of a sequel, and my knowledge of the industry, I'd be more than willing to argue it was successful.

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I don't know if it's true or not, but I have heard at least one explanation on other boards as to why. Supposedly in the past that they've accidentally posted sales numbers for games that were delayed a few weeks and not shipped on the week they were supposed to. Thus comes the criticism that they're "just making it up."

Ah, that WOULD be a problem. Still, I've never seen them be so far off that they need to be discredited outright.

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Are you using the sales numbers they post for games that are also released in the same period by NPD as a control?

NPD and any other source I can get my hands on, but unfortunately I cannot find any NPD numbers on Lords of Shadow.

Offline Sumac

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #248 on: January 07, 2012, 05:11:21 AM »
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I agree Koanmi deserves to be treated with professional courtesy, but they also deserve honest feedback as well.
Honest feedback does not equals only your opinion.

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For example --we know that LoS has sold 1.06 Million copies, but we don't any have data on the revenues produced by those sales.

I am sorry, but it's called "grasping on straws". No matter how you look at it LOS sold more than previous CV games in the past ten years and that what ultimately matters. And I believe it is exactly what Konami will be looking at, choosing direction for the next CV title.

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Secondly, even if Konami published all of the relevant data --OA doesn't have the financing to hire professional market analysts, so any statistical arguments would be an amateur endeavor.
Still, it would be better, than just demands.

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And finally, it's not the place of the consumer to make these kinds of statistical arguments to begin with.
Considering that you try to provide "demand" for something that is "remake a really old game and market it to 300,000 people with a budget that should be aiming for multi-millions", I doubt Konami will take it seriously. They want good sells, not realization of your desires. So, your demands need at least some sort of base to them. Not just "WE WANT IT!!".

Actually such project should have been started around the POR (or maybe even DOS) times, when the series began to go awry. Then it could have a chance to establish some connection with Konami, while IGA was at the helm, and probably more or less have some influence on their design decisions. As of now, this project comes a bit too late, when the major decisions regarding series future already have been made. In the essence OA fights with the consequences, not with the reason. And that's why I actually doubt it will have major influence (if any at all) on the Konami politics regarding the Castlevania.

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That was why I specifically cited those particular figures.  It should also be noted, that the 4000 estimate precludes impact of lurkers, the overlap of multiple exposures, and the repeated viewings of the videos.
And in the end it basically reduces number of people who aware about OA initiative.

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Are you still talking about the Demon Castle War and CV3?  Because I've already made my case that the hardcore fans want those particular games...  Or are you still talking about the quality demands?  Things like a "serious investment" "2-D on HD console" "highest standards of gameplay, graphics, and design" etc...
I meant overall thing. Like demanding certain games with certain conditions, that probably only you want to see.
You misundersatnd me. It's not about "demanding mediocre", it's about making demand less specific to your taste. Make them more general, not like "return IGA or ELSE".

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Let’s consider the example of Snake Eater.  Metal Gear Solid 3 had its original release way back in 2004, Subsistence in 2006, the Essential Collection in 2008, the HD Collection in 2011, and now the 3DS version is due in the next couple months.  This kind of saturation almost harkens back to how greedily Capcom exploited Street Fighter II back in the 90’s --and we all know how that eventually ended...
I wouldn't count handheld port as major rerelease. If the game released on the platform, where it was never released before, than it hardly could be conted as rerelease - its a simple port.

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Regardless, this comment (like so many others) clearly reveals a bias against OA's old-school ideals --and I'm sad to say there's just no reasoning with personal biases.
The same could be said about OA "movement". Wasn't it your personal bias against new approach to the CV that made you start this project?

Offline beingthehero

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #249 on: January 07, 2012, 05:25:34 AM »
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You know, I constantly hear people say that, but yet to hear why.

Sure it tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two, but it's accurate within reasonable expectations.

tends to overcut and undercut the mark by the occasional point or two


occasional point or two

point or two

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Actually, they've been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy off the mark more than a point or two multiple times in the past. That's why people say 'don't trust VGchartz. Most of their numbers are pure speculation btw

Offline crisis

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #250 on: January 07, 2012, 08:13:18 AM »
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LoS was also packed in as a "special edition" PS3 bundle (not sure about the 360)

So whoever bought a PS3 around that time, also bought LoS, they didn't have a choice. Do those sales incidentally count for anything?

Offline e105beta

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #251 on: January 07, 2012, 10:48:04 AM »
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ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Actually, they've been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy off the mark more than a point or two multiple times in the past. That's why people say 'don't trust VGchartz. Most of their numbers are pure speculation btw

Example?

LoS was also packed in as a "special edition" PS3 bundle (not sure about the 360)

So whoever bought a PS3 around that time, also bought LoS, they didn't have a choice. Do those sales incidentally count for anything?

It was in Japan, in which Lords of Shadow sold the worst.
And bundles don't work like that outside of release bundles, because there's plenty of other PS3s floating around, and in Japan, there's plenty of bundles to choose from.

Offline cecil-kain

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #252 on: January 07, 2012, 11:24:54 AM »
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We can agree on stagnation, which is why I can't agree on "the highest standards of 2-D gameplay, graphics, and design."

I'm not sure if I understand you here.  If you agree Castlevania had become stagnant, why would you disagree with raising these basic standards?  Or do you feel like 2-D itself was stagnant?

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I'm completely ambivalent on 2D vs 3D. If it's good, I'll like it, if its not, I won't, but demanding 2D (i.e. Sonic Fans) got us Generations, which, while an excellent game, feels dated and old fashioned on the Act 1 levels. In fact, the area where the game really excels is all of the improvements they made in the Act 2 levels

It looks like we agree on quality being more important than 2-D vs 3-D --although I still believe 2-D is the superior artform for Castlevania.  And yes Sonic Generations is a conceptual throwback for updating some old stages, but the execution of the 2-D gameplay was absolutely marvelous!  The real challenge with these kinds of games is to keep it fresh and innovative without using nostalgic elements as a constant crutch to carry the game.

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The handheld games also thrived on a loyal fanbase of people willing to buy anything as long as it resembled SotN, and the real reason IGA could get away with releasing so many was BECAUSE of the cheap production values and the recycled content. Only with a low budget could the games turn a significant profit off of 300,000 sales.

This begs the question.  How much are Castlevania fans willing to pay for higher standards of quality?  And what new audience could be reached with a higher quality product?

Let's consider this simplified, hypothetical scenario.

Suppose a DS Castlevania game sold 300,000 copies for about $30.00 each, producing 9 million dollars in total sales revenue.  And (just for example) let us also suppose the production costs amount to a grand total of 3 million dollars.  This comes to 6 million dollars worth of profits with a profit margin of about 66%

Now...

If the fans are willing to pay $50.00 for a higher quality console game, Konami could hypothetically increase their investment (production costs) from 3 million to 5 million dollars, sell to the same 300,000 fans, and increase the sales revenue from 9 million to 15 million dollars.  Total profits would increase from 6 million to 10 million dollars while maintaining a 66% profit margin.

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Oh, I've read it. It still sounds demanding.

Like you, I suppose it is blunt.  But it's disingenuous to suggest that it's over-the top or hasn't been improved since the founding --and I take issue with that.  Why is it so hard to give credit where credit is due?

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You used the parallel of your kids earlier, and that's not applicable here. Here, Konami has the money. Konami has the power. If you want Konami to make you something big and fancy, you need to come from a positive direction, praising previous efforts and supporting Konami to make more, because frankly, 300,000 fans, many of which probably not nearly as adamant as OA, are not going to move mountains.

The example I gave with the kids and the laundry was specifically about the relationship between high-pressure demands and realistic expectations --nothing whatsoever to do with who has the money or the power.  Although that is a legitimate consumer vs business debate, we don't need to go there.

Also, if we agree Castlevania had grown stagnant for over 10 years, and the sales remained consistently above 300,000 --how can we not agree that those sales represent a loyal, hardcore fanbase that's willing pay up for a higher quality product? *presuming of course that system ownership is not an issue*

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Never said anyone HATED LoS, but OA is going beyond "a future LoS game needs more Castlevania elements" like many, include myself, have said about LoS.

No, in rejecting LoS and responding with "Remake CV:III plz" you're essentially rejecting anything LoS or Konami did right because the overall game doesn't fit into your idea of what a Castlevania game should be.

Like the Mission Statement said...

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...Although we accept Lords of Shadow as a fine game on its own merits, we believe the writers took far too many liberties and ultimately disrespected Castlevania's core Akumajo mythology. Therefore, we reject the game as a reboot, and encourage Konami to reposition it as a separate universe that can coexist with a continuing line of Akumajo Dracula games...

Let LoS series go its own way and tell its own story, but not over Akumajo Dracula's grave.  I really don't understand this --why should a multiverse be such a divisive idea?  It really is the best of both worlds for everyone involved.

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And the problem with that is that the sales completely disagree with you.

Not neccessarily...

Like I've pointed out, the sales alone don't always tell the whole story --there is a wealth of other data measured in dollars and percentages that we are not privy to.  For example, I think it would be very interesting to compare Harmony of Despair's profit margin % to LoS' profit margin %. And the compare the DXC and the DS games for good measure...  But alas, I have not the data...

Moreover, the Successor had a very good point about resale values being a fair and legitimate measure of a game's reputation and success.  Like I've said before, Castlevania fans are a very loyal bunch, and I'm sure most of them gave LoS the benefit of the doubt...  But now we're left to ponder --how many of those traditional fans will be lining up to buy the sequel?

The logistical problem is that even if there is an exodus of Castlevania fans, there may still be an influx of God of War consumers to fill the void.  And Konami *none the wiser* will count the sales and call it a success --completely ignorant of any loyal fans they may have alienated...

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That's what LoS was...

Lords of Shadow had absolutely nothing to do with what the fans wanted.  Cox himself has repeatedly dismissed the Castlevania fanbase as "irrelevant" and needing to "forget what they know about Castlevania" etc...  LoS is about greed.  Konami saw a game like God of War sweeping the market, and the wanted a piece of the action.  Regardless of *how* it happened, LoS hijacked the Castlevania brand to sell a product that is remarkably foreign to many of the fans.  What more need be said?

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I highly doubt Metal Gear solid is going anywhere, and Kojima productions releases more than enough new titles, and the re-released titles are all released either a number of years later or to consumer bases which never got the chance to play the games before.

Never said MGS is going away --I was simply pointing out how Konami was over-milking the brand, much like Capcom did to Street Fighter 2 back in the 90s.  Every good investor knows that you need to diversify your portfolio to mitigate risk.  Investing so much into the MGS brand may have short term rewards --but when you reach the point of releasing the same game every couple years oversaturation becomes a legitimate threat.  It's not good business.  If Konami bets the farm on MG Rising or MGS5 and it suddenly doesn't sell like it should, Konami stands to take some serious damage.

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...yes? Your point?

You had made a legitimate point about how high quality games sometimes fail to become "blockbuster hits" based on market appeal...

 First, I was was pointing out how marketing the game is very important, because consumers generally have trouble finding high quality products they don't even know about.

And secondly, is the factor of competition.  People only have so much money.  If a consumer has to choose between a familiar brand he loves, and an allegedly high quality product he's never tried --which way do you suppose he's going to go?

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Jealousy doesn't win people over. You have to understand, OA should be much like a pitch, and when pitching, game developers don't go into a producer studios saying "Yo, your last games sucked ass, and the fans deserve better, so we're going to remake a really old game and market it to 300,000 people with a budget that should be aiming for multi-millions."

OA is still at the "reach out to the fans" stage of development.  There is no serious effort to engage Konami on a professional level at this time --and as many critics have pointed out, we don't have the numbers for them to take us seriously yet anyway.  All of the propaganda that exists, is for the purpose of reaching out to like minded fans --it is not a conscious effort to engage Konami.  Of course Konami is free to observe what we're doing and make their own judgments --but that won't necessarily determine the success or failure of the effort in the longer run.

Offline Sumac

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #253 on: January 07, 2012, 02:33:03 PM »
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Let LoS series go its own way and tell its own story, but not over Akumajo Dracula's grave.  I really don't understand this --why should a multiverse be such a divisive idea?  It really is the best of both worlds for everyone involved.
I don't divide Castlevania for "Castlevania" and "Akumajou Dracula".
SOTN is Castlevania, but so is LOS. It's different games, set in different worlds, but part of the same series with the same name.

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Like I've pointed out, the sales alone don't always tell the whole story --there is a wealth of other data measured in dollars and percentages that we are not privy to.  For example, I think it would be very interesting to compare Harmony of Despair's profit margin % to LoS' profit margin %. And the compare the DXC and the DS games for good measure...  But alas, I have not the data...
It doesn't matter in the end. We know that LOS sequel is produced and HD was canned with ridicilous 8-bit rehash. It speaks for itself.

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The logistical problem is that even if there is an exodus of Castlevania fans, there may still be an influx of God of War consumers to fill the void.  And Konami *none the wiser* will count the sales and call it a success --completely ignorant of any loyal fans they may have alienated...
And they wouldn't care about them as long as the game will bring them money. And honestly they not that obligated to do so.

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LoS is about greed.  Konami saw a game like God of War sweeping the market, and the wanted a piece of the action.  Regardless of *how* it happened, LoS hijacked the Castlevania brand to sell a product that is remarkably foreign to many of the fans.  What more need be said?
And you tell that you are not biased against LOS after that? LOL.

LOS is about trying to get profit from the exhausted series, applying to it generous amount of paint and cement of modern action game philosophy. Exactly what should be done with the franchise that literally stucked in the past and abysmal copypasting of itself. Reinvention by modernization and radical change of approach. In many ways it is experimental and alienating for some, but exactly that allows to see the potential, where previously people saw nothing.
Besides fans already were disappointed with direction of the DOS, POR and some were disappointed with OOE. Even if LOS was never created any next Castlevania most likely completely shattered fanbase for the group who wanted more "metroidvanias" and for the people who wanted something else (anything else). LOS just made it in differen way, but, ironically, still in the same vein.
I hope that LOS's sequel will change this situation and LOS subseries will be hailed as modern 3D view of what Castlevania should be in general.

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Let LoS series go its own way and tell its own story, but not over Akumajo Dracula's grave.  I really don't understand this --why should a multiverse be such a divisive idea?  It really is the best of both worlds for everyone involved.
I don't divide Castlevania for "Castlevania" and "Akumajou Dracula".
SOTN is Castlevania, but so is LOS. It's different games, set in different worlds, but part of the same series with the same name.

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Like I've pointed out, the sales alone don't always tell the whole story --there is a wealth of other data measured in dollars and percentages that we are not privy to.  For example, I think it would be very interesting to compare Harmony of Despair's profit margin % to LoS' profit margin %. And the compare the DXC and the DS games for good measure...  But alas, I have not the data...
It doesn't matter in the end. We know that LOS sequel is produced and HD was canned with ridicilous 8-bit rehash. It speaks for itself.

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The logistical problem is that even if there is an exodus of Castlevania fans, there may still be an influx of God of War consumers to fill the void.  And Konami *none the wiser* will count the sales and call it a success --completely ignorant of any loyal fans they may have alienated...
And they wouldn't care about them as long as the game will bring them money. And honestly they not that obligated to do so.

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LoS is about greed.  Konami saw a game like God of War sweeping the market, and the wanted a piece of the action.  Regardless of *how* it happened, LoS hijacked the Castlevania brand to sell a product that is remarkably foreign to many of the fans.  What more need be said?
And you tell that you are not biased against LOS after that? LOL.

LOS is about trying to get profit from the exhausted series, applying to it generous amount of paint and cement of modern action game philosophy. Exactly what should be done with the franchise that literally stucked in the past and abysmal copypasting of itself. Reinvention by modernization and radical change of approach. In many ways it is experimental and alienating for some, but exactly that allows to see the potential, where previously people saw nothing.
Besides fans already were disappointed with direction of the DOS, POR and some were disappointed with OOE. Even if LOS was never created any next Castlevania most likely completely shattered fanbase for the group who wanted more "metroidvanias" and for the people who wanted something else (anything else). LOS just made it in differen way, but, ironically, still in the same vein.
I hope that LOS's sequel will change this situation and LOS subseries will be hailed as modern 3D view of what Castlevania should be in general.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 07:29:29 AM by Sumac »

Offline DarkPrinceAlucard

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #254 on: January 07, 2012, 02:48:30 PM »
0

 It's different games, set in different worlds,

wait what?

Please tell me by "different worlds" you mean "different gampelay".

Because last I checked symphony is part of the original canon and LOS is not.

Or maybe I have read it wrong......


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