Topic: One word to describe the state of the franchise.

[TheouAegis]

Ok whatever, the scheme is only SLIGHTLY off. Because the point was 3D flopped and they tried to fix it but never really pushed it. They finally said, "fuck it, if we're gonna make this 3D we can't stick with Castlevania, so let's make something else. .. And hire a bunch of Americans to do it in case it sucks."

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I think you mean Spaniards, my dear Theou.

[TheouAegis]

Like I said, a bunch of Americans.
:p

It's the spaghetti western of video games.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Like I said, a bunch of Americans.
:p

It's the spaghetti western of video games.

Needs lasso DLC for that, I'm afraid.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

No. Castlevania 3 looks very similar to Castlevania 1 and 2, and it's artwork is very comparable. The gameplay of the action games didn't change up anymore than the metroidvania games changed. I will also note that the only Metroidvania games that look extremely similar to each other are the three DS games. Circle of the Moon has a different visual style than Symphony of the Night. Harmony of Dissonance has a different visual style than Aria of Sorrow. Aria of Sorrow has a different visual style than Circle of the Moon. If you can't perceive this, you're blind. There are similarities between them, but 2D Castlevania games have always had visual similarities to other Castlevania games.

So, in short, it is as someone else said. You've got convenient double standards going on.

That's basically what I'd say to Sumac's response there. In addition, the "choose different paths" innovation in CV3 is vaguely on the same scale of a change, as far as altering the overall way the levels are organized, to something like PoR (where instead of one large interconnected castle, paintings in the smaller castle lead to many different smaller self-contained areas) or OoE (where there's an overall map screen as a hub where new self-contained areas are unlocked as you find different exits to previous self-contained areas).

By that margin every action game could be count as clone.

If you mean by that margin every 3D hack and slash third person semi-linear action game (more specificity needed) could be counted as a clone: Correct. But that rather broad margin is the similar to what you seem to be going by for the castleroid/metroidvanias.

[Harrycombs]

Its such a shame the franchise is falling apart. There was such potential and promise 5 years ago. For everything that Dawn did wrong, it was still a solid game, but everything after that has just been bumpy and inconsistent since then. Dracula X Chronicles is, in my opinion, the best game since Aria, which is just kind of sad. I honestly am not looking forward to the future Castlevania games right now after Judgement, Lords, and that silly downloadable game. The series' future just looks hopeless. I guess we can always just relive the classics.

[Sumac]

Like I said, a bunch of Americans.

Yeah, because Spain in the America.
Everyday, you learn something new. Or not. 

OK, now for the detailed explanations of what was different in Classic'Vania games.

(click to show/hide)

Vampire Killer - different genre practically. Quest instead of action.
CV2 - practically different genre once again. Also, different colour pallet, resulting in much more bright and clear picture.
HC - different visual style. Multiple primary weapons to choose from.
CV3 - ability to choose paths and another characters.
SCV4 - multidirectional whip. Another visual style.
CVA2 - ability to choose levels.
ROB - secret levels, quest like elements.
CVB - different locations instead of Castle. Two characters to choose form at the start of the game. Each have slightly different paths.

Now for SOTN's kin:

(click to show/hide)

COTM - different visual style, another magical system. But ultimately the same as SOTN, going around the map, acquiring new abilities to progress further.
HOD - another visual style, new magical system, dual castle system. But ultimately the same as SOTN, going around the map, acquiring new abilities to progress further.
AOS - another visual style (toned HOD style), new subsystem. But ultimately the same as SOTN, going around the map, acquiring new abilities to progress further.
DOW - SOTN's visual style, subsystem expanded. But ultimately the same as SOTN, going around the map, acquiring new abilities to progress further.
POR - dual partner system, levels not connected to the main map (it was done back in CV2, so not major innovation to the series), ability to level up subweapons (why?). But ultimately the same as SOTN, going around the map, acquiring new abilities to progress further, though this time it was done in a clumsy fashion and unnecessary copypaste of past levels.
OOE - primary system being remix of AOS / DOS subsystems. Levels that do not connected to the main map (done in POR). But ultimately very close to SOTN. However done in a quite different fashion.

I treat all this magical subsystems, partner systmes and other nonsense, as addons to the main gameplay style, which wasn't changed from SOTN all that much.

[farfan666]

Recycled

[Flame]

resulting in much more bright and clear picture

CV2 had darker pallets if I recall. CV1 had brighter colors and contrasts. (EG blue and orange)

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

Just to be clear, when I say classicvanias (and I believe I mentioned something like this before in the thread) I'm not including VK and CV2. I obviously acknowledge those as being radical departures from CV1's genre, to the point where people occasionally point to them for precursors to SotN's style rather than lumping them in with CV1 and its formula.

But I'm not really clear on the motivation for the list of what was different in CV3, HC, 4, Rondo, CVA2 and Bloodlines, since it actually sorta seems like you're acknowledging they've got little in the way of major changes to the CV1 formula. You also neglected to mention CVA1, CVChronicles, Legends, Dracula X, and Adventure Rebirth for some reason; I guess because they didn't have notable differences worth mentioning from what came before.

Also, for Bloodlines, I'm not really sure different locales rather than just castles are notable for it alone--CV3, 4, Dracula X, and Rondo all have outdoor areas or areas leading up to the castle which aren't castle interior, like caves, forests and other varied environments. I wouldn't say that's an innovation belonging to Bloodlines. More to CV2 and then most of the classics ran with it partially until you get to the castle. Bloodlines does take place all throughout Europe rather than in one location in Europe, but a forest in Greece and a forest in Wallachia doesn't really make much difference to the player. There are some iconic landmarks used as locations though, but I'm not really sure that's significant enough that I'd say it's an innovation.

Also, the 8 directional whipping innovation seems to be mostly a hitbox variation issue, of which most castleroids have in spades. Each new entry has a decent number of new weapon hitboxes (compared to SotN), especially in something like OoE with spells as regular weapons.

On the castleroid descriptions, it seems like your basic definition of their formula and justification for why they end up the same is that they're all "going around the map, acquiring new abilities to progress further." Let me try to critique this a bit. The problem is, with that type of loose description and justification, you do indeed end up acknowledging a great deal of video games as clones of each other and make it difficult for much innovation beyond major genre or structural changes to be satisfactory. Most Zeldas turn into "Find dungeon, solve puzzles, collect special items, use those items to progress and beat the dungeon boss, repeat." 2D Mario turns into "run through the stages platforming, stomp on enemies and defeat the boss at the end of the level." There simply aren't enough genres out there to allow us to complain about a series sticking with one, only adding a major change every once and awhile, and changing minor bits and pieces the rest of the time (like the RPG system changes which you don't acknowledge as mattering much).

Finally, things like the HoD spell book system or the OoE glyph system I agree are mostly only minor changes in ways of doing things the games to some extent did before, but I wouldn't exactly lump the partner system in PoR in with that. That's a more significant change to the way the player handles the gameplay, commanding the partner to use specials effectively and it also adds extra physical puzzle elements occasionally for how to interact with the partner to progress. For example, swapping to one to push a statue that'd be out of reach for the other so the other can jump up, commanding the other to stand in a particular location to use his/her shoulders as an extra platform, pushing on a train concurrently with both to slow it down enough or the go-kart segment where you swap between them concurrently to avoid obstacles to get them both to the other side. While I didn't really like the addition of the physical puzzle elements much, they were still there.

[thernz]

(click to show/hide)

Vampire Killer - different genre practically. Quest instead of action. But ultimately the same as CV1, going around the levels linearly, even if the levels themselves are not linear.
CV2 - practically different genre once again. Also, different colour pallet, resulting in much more bright and clear picture. But ultimately the same as SOTN, going around the map, acquiring new abilities to progress further.
HC - different visual style. Multiple primary weapons to choose from. But ultimately the same as CV1, going around the levels linearly.
CV3 - ability to choose paths and another characters. But ultimately the same as CV1, going around the levels linearly.
SCV4 - multidirectional whip. Another visual style. But ultimately the same as CV1, going around the levels linearly.
CVA2 - ability to choose levels. But ultimately the same as CV1, in terms of gameplay besides minor alterations.
ROB - secret levels, quest like elements. But ultimately the same as CV1, going around the levels linearly.
CVB - different locations instead of Castle. Two characters to choose form at the start of the game. Each have slightly different paths. But ultimately the same as CV1, going around the levels linearly.

And CV1 has a clearer palette than CV2. CV2 is full of blacks, even on Simon, and odd color combinations. I mean I like it for that, but CV1 distinctly aims for complementary or different colors for Simon and the backgrounds to separate them.

[GummiCandyful]

I think you mean Spaniards

Yeah, because Spain in the America.
Everyday, you learn something new. Or not. 

I Second this. I'm Spaniard and I don't appreciate someone lumping my people together with Americans, whom are vastly different from us. Not that I have anything against Americans, because I was born in the U.S. It's almost the same as saying that all Asians are Chinese. But, anyway, back to my real point, not all American video game producers are terrible; it kinda goes back to the "Japanese are better at everything we do" thing, which is pure BS. No country is better than the other and each have their flaws.

Well, enough of that, I have a question for you all. How would you feel if Ninja Theory developed a Castlevania game? Yes, the same guys who are responsible for the infamous DmC reboot. I'm pretty sure the response isn't going to be positive for obvious reasons.

[crisis]

I would love to see Platinum Games develop a 3D Castlevania, and WayForward develop a 2D Castlevania.

[Kingshango]

I too think it would be cool to have Platinum games do a 3D Castlevania since they are now in cahoots with Konami and Wayforward has shown to be more than capable to do a 2D Castlevania game justice.

[crimsonmist]

fallen.
as in "fallen from grace"