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Offline Neobelmont

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 11:47:07 PM »
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Also back in middle school we had a big comics section I remember reading IIRC something called showcase it's oldschool comics like the first  all into a book I recall reading a lot of the teen titans and showcase green lantern with hal jordan good classic stuff.
(click to show/hide)
Come on now this was going to happen eventually  :P

Offline A-Yty

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2013, 07:24:36 AM »
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I've been wondering about New 52 too. The concept doesn't interest me in the least. With the silly Superman legal issues, needless redesigns and origins, it mostly tastes like throwing things on the wall to see what sticks. The only thing that interests me with this, is the possibility of doing ballsy stuff, like killing off major characters. But if New 52 is to remain the canon continuity, that's never gonna happen.

I don't mind the idea of Batman Inc. It's actually pretty great; Batman finally utilizes the power and money of Bruce Wayne to fight crime globally. Also, it enabled Dick to continue as Batman even after Wayne returned, which was cool (I understand that he's back to Nightwing in New 52). What bothers me is how Bruce did it, at least in the former canon. He announced to the whole world he's been funding Batman. Now, I can somehow tolerate the citizens of Gotham not realizing there's only one guy rich, traumatized and with enough free time to jump from rooftops, using stuff so expensive and elaborate no average joe could ever get his hands on. But announcing a direct tie to Batman? No. Just no. Not only does it obviously raise too many questions, but it also makes Wayne a target.

I'm definitely going to check out Death Of The Family once it has finished. I hope they're really doing the "Joker knows their identities" instead of just playing the ambiguous route like the have done for years.


Offline Ratty

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2013, 09:05:20 PM »
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Also back in middle school we had a big comics section I remember reading IIRC something called showcase it's oldschool comics like the first  all into a book I recall reading a lot of the teen titans and showcase green lantern with hal jordan good classic stuff.

Yeah that would probably be the "Showcase Presents" line you're thinking of. Big 500 - 600 odd pages of silver and bronze age (roughly the 1960s and 1970s) comics. As long as you don't mind them being in black and white, which is often not as big a deal as you'd thinking considering how clean the the old linework was, it's a great way to read tons of old comics for about $10 - $20 a pop. Marvel has a line just like this called "Marvel Essentials". If you want color books though Marvel has the slightly pricier line of paperback "Marvel Masterwork" editions, and DC has the "Chronicles" reprints for some characters.
Some amazon links if you want to peruse them.

Big Black and White Books
Showcase Presents 
Marvel Essentials

Smaller all color books
Marvel Masterworks Paperbacks
DC Batman (Golden Age)/Superman (Golden Age)/Wonder Woman (Golden Age)/Flash (Silver Age)/Green Lantern (Silver Age) Chronicles

I don't mind the idea of Batman Inc. It's actually pretty great; Batman finally utilizes the power and money of Bruce Wayne to fight crime globally. Also, it enabled Dick to continue as Batman even after Wayne returned, which was cool (I understand that he's back to Nightwing in New 52). What bothers me is how Bruce did it, at least in the former canon. He announced to the whole world he's been funding Batman. Now, I can somehow tolerate the citizens of Gotham not realizing there's only one guy rich, traumatized and with enough free time to jump from rooftops, using stuff so expensive and elaborate no average joe could ever get his hands on. But announcing a direct tie to Batman? No. Just no. Not only does it obviously raise too many questions, but it also makes Wayne a target.

The mindboggling stupid "Bruce Wayne announcing he funds Batman" bit bothered me a lot, but it's also the fact that Batman becomes a brand and not much of an individual when you do this. I mean sure there's been the "Batman family" of individuals inspired by and associated with him for decades, but when you make it this big corporate thing "Batman" is infinitely less unique. It just becomes like the name of the hundreds of other super groups. How is he going to spread fear in the "superstitious, cowardly lot" of criminals when they all know for sure he's just one of dozens of assholes being funded by some company?

Offline Weiss Belmont

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 09:41:28 PM »
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The mindboggling stupid "Bruce Wayne announcing he funds Batman" bit bothered me a lot, but it's also the fact that Batman becomes a brand and not much of an individual when you do this. I mean sure there's been the "Batman family" of individuals inspired by and associated with him for decades, but when you make it this big corporate thing "Batman" is infinitely less unique. It just becomes like the name of the hundreds of other super groups. How is he going to spread fear in the "superstitious, cowardly lot" of criminals when they all know for sure he's just one of dozens of assholes being funded by some company?

You guys aren't looking at this from a DC universe perspective. You're only looking at this from the standpoint of "tradition" which is irrelevant here. Bruce Wayne going public in terms of "funding Batman" doesn't put him at any more risk than say Lex Luthor who has backed heroes in the past (for diabolical plots later on down the line) or on the Marvel end there is Kingpin whose villainy led him to publicly back people like Hammerhead or Tombstone. In essence the argument I'm making is that Bruce Wayne isn't in that much danger from making a public announcement that he is backing the Bat.

Secondly I'm not sure how long you guys have been reading comic books but criminals haven't been superstitious cowardly lots since the 1970s. If we are to use an in-universe example criminals stopped being afraid of Batman during the events of Knightfall. Criminals are not superstitious, they are not cowardly, they're bold, careful, intelligent, and dangerous. Bruce Wayne knows that the Batman has simply escalated the arms race in Gotham and the criminal underworld as a whole.

Super heroes show up. Super villains show up. Heroes start wearing bulletproof vests. Criminals start packing armor piercing rounds. [We've heard these analogies in Batman Begins.] Batman's Rogue Gallery is filled with criminals who don't actually fear Batman and those rogues tend to gather numerous scum under them who follow them because they aren't afraid of the Bat. Batman as an answer to crime is no longer effective because criminals have evolved. Batman Inc., has to exist because crime on a global level has escalated to such a degree that criminals have no hindrances. They are limitless, they fear nothing, and they can do anything. So Batman as a symbol, as a hero has to change, it has to become bigger, and the gloves need to come off.

Batman Inc. as an organization is more effective than Batman as an individual or a "family" because criminals are now faced with the fact that Batman is just as organized as the crime he's fighting against. That makes Batman dangerous. The only real knock  towards Batman Inc. is the lack of Azrael.

Criminals need to die.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 09:46:11 PM by Weiss Belmont »

Offline Ratty

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 02:30:43 AM »
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Criminals need to die.
Whoa what the hell, are we talking about Batman or the Punisher? I wouldn't even expect rhetoric that absolute from Judge Dredd, and he's largely a caricature of American fascism. If this was really what Batman was all about he could, you know, just fire a missile into Arkham Asylum. Hunt down all of his foes and shoot them, most of his rogues gallery would be dead in a week.

You guys aren't looking at this from a DC universe perspective. You're only looking at this from the standpoint of "tradition" which is irrelevant here.

Whether tradition is relevant or not for characters who've been around for three quarters of a century is opinion, but it's a logical assumption that Wayne would be a target.

Bruce Wayne going public in terms of "funding Batman" doesn't put him at any more risk than say Lex Luthor who has backed heroes in the past (for diabolical plots later on down the line) or on the Marvel end there is Kingpin whose villainy led him to publicly back people like Hammerhead or Tombstone. In essence the argument I'm making is that Bruce Wayne isn't in that much danger from making a public announcement that he is backing the Bat.
Only if the writers choose to ignore the above piece of logic. Which even in a universe full of superheroes would just be lazy writing. What's the POINT of secret identities if someone can just come out and say "Oh yeah I'm a very important funder and close associate of this hero." without any fear of reprisal whatsoever?

Secondly I'm not sure how long you guys have been reading comic books but criminals haven't been superstitious cowardly lots since the 1970s.
I was referencing the famous corny speech Bruce Wayne gave right before being inspired by a bat flying in his window, in which he described criminals thusly. The last Batman arc I really followed closely was HUSH, which as you know was a long ass time ago. Great run though, up there with The Long Halloween as one of my favorite Batman stories. One of the reasons I've been out of comic book collecting for a long time is it's a very expensive hobby if you try to follow all of the current goings on.

Batman as an answer to crime is no longer effective... …Batman as a symbol, as a hero has to change, it has to become bigger, and the gloves need to come off.
Then I have to ask at exactly what point he ceases to resemble anything Batman has been or stood for in the past? Because that’s the point at which I cease to give a crap because he might as well be an entirely different character. I suppose this is one of the reasons I always detested Batman Beyond.

Batman Inc. as an organization is more effective than Batman as an individual or a "family" because criminals are now faced with the fact that Batman is just as organized as the crime he's fighting against. That makes Batman dangerous.
Like there weren’t already enough JLA clones? It makes him and his associates like all the other generic supergroups, except with a more consistent “theme”.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 02:48:15 AM by Ratty »

Offline A-Yty

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2013, 08:39:40 AM »
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I'm so sick of the opinion that Batman would be better as a killer. Yes, he suffers from keeping the likes of Joker alive. It's a constant moral challenge to him, mostly because lots of people think it makes him an accomplice.

But think of it this way; is it Batman's responsibility to break the very code that he and others consider the thin line between him as a criminal and as an upholder of law? The DC universe is filled with god-like people and some of them kill. Why don't they take the Joker out? The only argument for it being Batman's job is the possibility of him having been responsible for the Joker's birth. But even still it's shaky.

I have no doubt Batman could kill the whole world if he wanted to. But then he wouldn't be as unique as he is. He would be dowright..boring.in  If you want to see borderline psychos and anti-villains killing bad guys in comic books, there's plenty to choose from. I mean, Punisher isn't a hero. He isn't even an anti-hero or villain. He's a goddamn sociopath.

It's only because people want to see their heroes corrupted they constantly pine after a Superman that fries people from orbit and a Batman who starts snapping necks.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 08:41:37 AM by Santa Count »


Offline Weiss Belmont

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2013, 10:00:31 AM »
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My god such RAGE!!!  ;D


Whoa what the hell, are we talking about Batman or the Punisher? I wouldn't even expect rhetoric that absolute from Judge Dredd, and he's largely a caricature of American fascism. If this was really what Batman was all about he could, you know, just fire a missile into Arkham Asylum. Hunt down all of his foes and shoot them, most of his rogues gallery would be dead in a week.

You don't understand what I'm saying. Batman as a hero has failed to achieve what he set out to do. Batman Inc. will likewise fail in turn. The reason for this is that criminals do not fear Batman and thus see no reason to curb their activities. How many times has Batman or a member of the Fam tracked down criminals, only to lock them up, only to have them escape? You cannot provide me with a just reason for that outside of the narrative structure where writers are going to need these characters for later stories. Even if Batman has a "no kill" modus operandi common sense would tell any vigilante that it is better for the people of Gotham to kill say, the Joker or Penguin rather than lock them up, only for them to escape, and threaten the lives of millions. I don't mean to be flippant but I know my comic book characters well so please spare me the sarcastic comment as to whether or not we're talking about Batman or the Punisher. We're clearly talking about Batman who by the way has been far "less" successful than the likes of the Punisher because criminals fear the Punisher. Criminals do not fear Batman and that is the key problem I'm addressing here.



Whether tradition is relevant or not for characters who've been around for three quarters of a century is opinion, but it's a logical assumption that Wayne would be a target.

So you're expecting Batman in 2012 to be the same as Batman in 1939?



Only if the writers choose to ignore the above piece of logic. Which even in a universe full of superheroes would just be lazy writing.

Comics are full of lazy writing. I'm not justifying it but really, addressing what DC did with the death of Superman, as well as A Death in the Family, and what Marvel did with the Clone Saga - this - it is THIS that makes you call out DC on lazy writing.


What's the POINT of secret identities if someone can just come out and say "Oh yeah I'm a very important funder and close associate of this hero." without any fear of reprisal whatsoever?

Tony Stark says hi.


I was referencing the famous corny speech Bruce Wayne gave right before being inspired by a bat flying in his window, in which he described criminals thusly. The last Batman arc I really followed closely was HUSH, which as you know was a long ass time ago. Great run though, up there with The Long Halloween as one of my favorite Batman stories. One of the reasons I've been out of comic book collecting for a long time is it's a very expensive hobby if you try to follow all of the current goings on.

Which is exactly my point. You've been out of the game a long time and that's why you cannot grasp why Batman Inc. exists. As I already alluded to, the events of Knightfall showed the world that Batman is not a symbol, he is a man - a man who could be defeated and broken. Bane showed that Batman was just flesh and blood like anyone else, thus the myth became a mere man who criminals no longer feared. Everyone understands that Batman is just a nut in a costume and so striking fear into the hearts of criminals - which truly was an excellent deterrent - was no longer possible. Batman Inc. is needed to fight crime on a higher level, a global level. You of course don't have to like Bruce Wayne publicly backing it nor do you even have to like the existence of Batman Inc. However, my point to you is you cannot deny that Batman Inc. is needed just because you don't know how DC in-universe has changed.


Then I have to ask at exactly what point he ceases to resemble anything Batman has been or stood for in the past? Because that’s the point at which I cease to give a crap because he might as well be an entirely different character. I suppose this is one of the reasons I always detested Batman Beyond.

Future gloss aside Batman Beyond is realistic - which may have something to do with you not enjoying it. It doesn't matter how many heroes there are, crime will never cease. Heroes cannot end crime they can only keep it from escalating which is what Batman in the original continuum, failed to do. Batman Beyond shows us a realistic future because sorry to break the news but there will never be peace, the world will never be crime free, and the general masses will never stop being more than animals. Batman Beyond embraces that reality and it refuses to take the easy way out by ignoring that fact. The entire point of Batman Beyond can be seen by the astute viewer in it's opening. And I'm not saying you're not astute I'm just pointing out that for the viewer who knows their comic books they would have understood the point of Batman Beyond - hope. Hope is what the people of Gotham need. Hope is what the world needs. That was what Batman Beyond was a symbol of. Not of fear, not of an end to crime, but rather a symbol of hope.

Getting back to Batman Inc. it's a corporation. End of story. Bruce Wayne isn't a child anymore nor is he the same guy he was during the events of Year One. Bruce Wayne knows that Batman has failed which is the reason he created Batman Inc. It doesn't matter if Batman Inc. resembles the ideals that Batman stood for because he failed. It is the ideology of Batman that prevented him from fulfilling his objective.

So I reiterate this: "Criminals need to die."



Like there weren’t already enough JLA clones? It makes him and his associates like all the other generic supergroups, except with a more consistent “theme”.

Groups like the Justice League, the Outlaws, Teen Titans, the Avengers, X-Men, X-Factor, X-Force, the list goes on were created because criminals or intergalactic threats upped the ante. It's like you expect Bruce Wayne as Batman should have the power to solve all the worlds problems. He doesn't. And he's accepted that.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 10:05:21 AM by Weiss Belmont »

Offline Ratty

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2013, 11:40:39 AM »
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My god such RAGE!!!  ;D
We're nerds, being too emotionally and intellectually invested in commercial properties is kind of our thing.

You don't understand what I'm saying. Batman as a hero has failed to achieve what he set out to do. Batman Inc. will likewise fail in turn. The reason for this is that criminals do not fear Batman and thus see no reason to curb their activities. How many times has Batman or a member of the Fam tracked down criminals, only to lock them up, only to have them escape? You cannot provide me with a just reason for that outside of the narrative structure where writers are going to need these characters for later stories.


Yes, I can. Batman and the family are not killers (with the possible exclusion of Jason Todd aside) they are morally superior to the criminals they fight.

Even if Batman has a "no kill" modus operandi common sense would tell any vigilante that it is better for the people of Gotham to kill say, the Joker or Penguin rather than lock them up, only for them to escape, and threaten the lives of millions.


Batman is not a murderer, he has never been a murderer. (Aside from the Tim Burton movies and other elseworlds style stuff naturally.) You're asking to change a fundamental part of what makes him who he is.

We're clearly talking about Batman who by the way has been far "less" successful than the likes of the Punisher because criminals fear the Punisher. Criminals do not fear Batman and that is the key problem I'm addressing here.
The Punisher actually is a monster, Batman is not, he just dresses like one.



So you're expecting Batman in 2012 to be the same as Batman in 1939?
I'm expecting a few things to be consistent if they're going to call him Batman. Such as his moral compass, especially if they are going to continue to label him a hero and not a villain.


Comics are full of lazy writing. I'm not justifying it but really, addressing what DC did with the death of Superman, as well as A Death in the Family, and what Marvel did with the Clone Saga - this - it is THIS that makes you call out DC on lazy writing. Tony Stark says hi.

No I'll call all of those other things lazy writing to, but that doesn't make what I'd gone over earlier any less lazy. Also as I recall wasn't Stark like, the figurehead of the superhuman registration act during the civil Civil War arc?


Which is exactly my point. You've been out of the game a long time and that's why you cannot grasp why Batman Inc. exists. As I already alluded to, the events of Knightfall showed the world that Batman is not a symbol, he is a man - a man who could be defeated and broken. Bane showed that Batman was just flesh and blood like anyone else, thus the myth became a mere man who criminals no longer feared. Everyone understands that Batman is just a nut in a costume and so striking fear into the hearts of criminals - which truly was an excellent deterrent - was no longer possible. Batman Inc. is needed to fight crime on a higher level, a global level. You of course don't have to like Bruce Wayne publicly backing it nor do you even have to like the existence of Batman Inc. However, my point to you is you cannot deny that Batman Inc. is needed just because you don't know how DC in-universe has changed.

Knightfall was like 10 years before HUSH, Batman got along about as fine as he ever did (at least as he ever did post-grim and gritty reinvention) all that time without Batman INC. And that was BEFORE the DC universe got rebooted.

Future gloss aside Batman Beyond is realistic - which may have something to do with you not enjoying it.

Superhero stories are not realistic, they can sound more or less plausible, but by their nature they're unrealistic. Escapist/wish fullfillment fantasy.


It doesn't matter how many heroes there are, crime will never cease. Heroes cannot end crime they can only keep it from escalating which is what Batman in the original continuum, failed to do. Batman Beyond shows us a realistic future because sorry to break the news but there will never be peace, the world will never be crime free, and the general masses will never stop being more than animals.
This sounds like a defeatest rather than a strictly realist outlook, also how do you *know* all of this for a fact?



Batman Beyond embraces that reality and it refuses to take the easy way out by ignoring that fact. The entire point of Batman Beyond can be seen by the astute viewer in it's opening. And I'm not saying you're not astute I'm just pointing out that for the viewer who knows their comic books they would have understood the point of Batman Beyond - hope. Hope is what the people of Gotham need. Hope is what the world needs. That was what Batman Beyond was a symbol of. Not of fear, not of an end to crime, but rather a symbol of hope.
But you just said Batman Beyond is realistic because there is no hope for the future?


It doesn't matter if Batman Inc. resembles the ideals that Batman stood for because he failed. It is the ideology of Batman that prevented him from fulfilling his objective.

So I reiterate this: "Criminals need to die."


And I reiterate that if he gives up the core of his character it's not actually Batman anymore. He becomes a different, much more generic, much less interesting character.

Groups like the Justice League, the Outlaws, Teen Titans, the Avengers, X-Men, X-Factor, X-Force, the list goes on were created because criminals or intergalactic threats upped the ante. It's like you expect Bruce Wayne as Batman should have the power to solve all the worlds problems. He doesn't. And he's accepted that.

He accepted that he can't solve every crime a long time ago, why else would he have joined the JLA, or the Outsiders etc. What Batman is "about" is open for interpretation, but I think it fairly safe to say Batman has never (or never until the current writers) been about "solving" all of the worlds crime through assassinations or even through fear.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 11:49:39 AM by Ratty »

Offline Weiss Belmont

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2013, 01:20:43 PM »
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We're nerds, being too emotionally and intellectually invested in commercial properties is kind of our thing.

Well you have considerably more time to waste and less self-respect at your disposal if you think I'm going to reduce myself to raging over ink and paper as you have. Whereas your arguments only consist of "I'm a mark and I want things to be the same and if DC doesn't keep things the same I'm going rage. RAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEE E!!!!!" On the other hand my view is the only one that matters. This is a fact so I don't need to rage at you to get you to understand why I'm right. Your logic - what little you do exercise is seriously busted and pointing that out is my main objective here.



 
Yes, I can. Batman and the family are not killers (with the possible exclusion of Jason Todd aside) they are morally superior to the criminals they fight.

Now you're addressing factors that aren't of any real importance and which have nothing to do with the topic in question. Congratulations on airing so far off the mark you've ventured into a separate discussion. We know the Bat Fam is morally superior to criminals. Who cares? Y'know, besides you. The answer is no one. Superman is morally superior to all of his foes and yet we still have Darkseid, we still have Doomsday, we still have Lex Luthor doing what they do i.e. making life hell for millions of people as they aim to get what they want. But I guess you think the Bat's moral superiority actually makes a difference. I'll bet you also think Gotham city has a crime rate of zero.
 

Batman is not a murderer, he has never been a murderer. (Aside from the Tim Burton movies and other elseworlds style stuff naturally.) You're asking to change a fundamental part of what makes him who he is.

What you know about Batman could barely fill a coffee mug. You say Batman has never been a murderer? I have news for you, when Batman was first created he killed criminals all the time. He had no issue beating them to death, setting them on fire, and Batman even used guns. Issues arose however because at the same time Batman was on the market, there was another superhero called The Shadow. Maybe, just maybe you might have heard of him. The similarities between Batman and The Shadow were staggering. So much in fact that Bob Kane was afraid he might get sued so he had to change how Batman operated as time went on. So please, spare me the whole Batman is not a murderer nor has ever been one because clearly for all you think you know you don't actually know the first thing about Batman. Here are some actual facts to supplement your weightless opinions.

Batman Killing People
http://io9.com/5759535/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-batman
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/batman_movies/news/?a=49514


The Punisher actually is a monster, Batman is not, he just dresses like one.

*Cough* mark.



I'm expecting a few things to be consistent if they're going to call him Batman. Such as his moral compass, especially if they are going to continue to label him a hero and not a villain.

His moral compass has always changed to suit whoever is writing him, the times, and convenience. Batman as conceived as Bob Kane is completely different from the Batman later writers have created and I can guarantee you that Frank Miller's Batman is different from this further still. You're grasping at straws at this point so why don't you just pay the house and leave with what little change you still have?



No I'll call all of those other things lazy writing to, but that doesn't make what I'd gone over earlier any less lazy. Also as I recall wasn't Stark like, the figurehead of the superhuman registration act during the civil Civil War arc?

What's your point? If you think I'm going to say Tony Stark handled the Civil War wrong you're sadly mistaken.



Knightfall was like 10 years before HUSH, Batman got along about as fine as he ever did (at least as he ever did post-grim and gritty reinvention) all that time without Batman INC. And that was BEFORE the DC universe got rebooted.

1) Please don't post about a topic unless you actually have the knowledge of the subject you're trying to comment on.

2) Batman did not "get along fine" during or after the events of Knightfall. Something you would have known if you read it.

3) Batman did not "get along fine" before the DC universe was rebooted.

4) The only thing you keep saying is that "I wanted DC this way and they changed so now I hate it. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG EEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!"
 


Superhero stories are not realistic, they can sound more or less plausible, but by their nature they're unrealistic. Escapist/wish fullfillment fantasy.

Frank Miller says hi.



This sounds like a defeatest rather than a strictly realist outlook, also how do you *know* all of this for a fact?

It's called critical thinking. I'd like to believe I'm not the only person in the world who has it but I guess you've proven me wrong.



But you just said Batman Beyond is realistic because there is no hope for the future?

Read what's there and not what you think is there. There is no end to crime in the future, there is no end to violence, death, or chaos. However, there is hope. Even in a future as terrible as the one we see in BB there is always hope. That was the main point of the series.



And I reiterate that if he gives up the core of his character it's not actually Batman anymore. He becomes a different, much more generic, much less interesting character.

You don't know who or what Batman is therefore you don't know how Batman Inc. affects those aspects of Batman. You simply don't know enough about Batman to make even a third of the statements you've made. EoD


He accepted that he can't solve every crime a long time ago, why else would he have joined the JLA, or the Outsiders etc. What Batman is "about" is open for interpretation, but I think it fairly safe to say Batman has never (or never until the current writers) been about "solving" all of the worlds crime through assassinations or even through fear.

Bob Kane says you need to read more.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 06:32:22 PM by Weiss Belmont »

Offline Neobelmont

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2013, 05:26:04 PM »
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Yeah that would probably be the "Showcase Presents" line you're thinking of. Big 500 - 600 odd pages of silver and bronze age (roughly the 1960s and 1970s) comics. As long as you don't mind them being in black and white, which is often not as big a deal as you'd thinking considering how clean the the old linework was, it's a great way to read tons of old comics for about $10 - $20 a pop. Marvel has a line just like this called "Marvel Essentials". If you want color books though Marvel has the slightly pricier line of paperback "Marvel Masterwork" editions, and DC has the "Chronicles" reprints for some characters.
Some amazon links if you want to peruse them.

Big Black and White Books
Showcase Presents 
Marvel Essentials

Smaller all color books
Marvel Masterworks Paperbacks
DC Batman (Golden Age)/Superman (Golden Age)/Wonder Woman (Golden Age)/Flash (Silver Age)/Green Lantern (Silver Age) Chronicles

The mindboggling stupid "Bruce Wayne announcing he funds Batman" bit bothered me a lot, but it's also the fact that Batman becomes a brand and not much of an individual when you do this. I mean sure there's been the "Batman family" of individuals inspired by and associated with him for decades, but when you make it this big corporate thing "Batman" is infinitely less unique. It just becomes like the name of the hundreds of other super groups. How is he going to spread fear in the "superstitious, cowardly lot" of criminals when they all know for sure he's just one of dozens of assholes being funded by some company?

I read alot of manga so b/w only does not affect me and the clear art work you said would help me understand lines abit more. but I did look these up and these were not the ones I read back  in middle school I searched on-line abit and these were the two I read





This is where it's at  ;D good classic stuff.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 05:28:48 PM by Neobelmont »
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Offline Weiss Belmont

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2013, 05:39:17 PM »
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Starfire still has her figure after all these years. Glad to see she didn't let herself go like Lois Lane.

Offline Neobelmont

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2013, 05:41:45 PM »
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Starfire still has her figure after all these years. Glad to see she didn't let herself go like Lois Lane.

Yep starfire is hot  ;)
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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2013, 08:37:15 PM »
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Batman is not a murderer, he has never been a murderer. (Aside from the Tim Burton movies and other elseworlds style stuff naturally.)

He carried a gun for defense in the very first comics and also breaks a guy's neck by swing-kicking it. Those first few issues he kills quite a few criminals, actually.

Then Robin came along and pussified the whole show.
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Soda as well.

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2013, 10:02:42 PM »
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Well you have considerably more time to waste and less self-respect at your disposal if you think I'm going to reduce myself to raging over ink and paper as you have. Whereas your arguments only consist of "I'm a mark and I want things to be the same and if DC doesn't keep things the same I'm going rage. RAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEE E!!!!!" On the other hand my view is the only one that matters. This is a fact so I don't need to rage at you to get you to understand why I'm right. Your logic - what little you do exercise is seriously busted and pointing that out is my main objective here.

Not sure what you mean by "I'm a mark" as in a target? I didn't say if DC doesn't keep things the same I'm going to rage though, just that I'll cease to really care about the character because it's so OC it's only the same one in name only. (The quote you're directly replying to was also an observational joke.) If you think your opinion is the only one that matters that's fine, but that doesn't prove your argument is logically sound. Taking thinly veiled digs at and outright insulting me doesn't prove your argument either.

Now you're addressing factors that aren't of any real importance and which have nothing to do with the topic in question. Congratulations on airing so far off the mark you've ventured into a separate discussion. We know the Bat Fam is morally superior to criminals. Who cares? Y'know, besides you. The answer is no one. Superman is morally superior to all of his foes and yet we still have Darkseid, we still have Doomsday, we still have Lex Luthor doing what they do i.e. making life hell for millions of people as they aim to get what they want. But I guess you think the Bat's moral superiority actually makes a difference. I'll bet you also think Gotham city has a crime rate of zero.

Lol wat, the moral superiority doesn't make a difference? It's an integral part of his character, and it's what makes him a hero instead of a villain. It's pretty clearly important.
 

What you know about Batman could barely fill a coffee mug. You say Batman has never been a murderer? I have news for you, when Batman was first created he killed criminals all the time.

Yes yes, I read all of those stories here http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bill-Finger/dp/1401204457/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357451083&sr=8-1&keywords=batman+chronicles I've read most of these, still need to get volume 10 tho. Back when Batman was a generic pulp hero/"The Shadow"/The Spider ripoff for about a year before Robin came in, he did kill a few criminals. One he tipped over into a vat of acid during a fight, he also killed some men who had been mutated into monsters in his plane. But if you'll read this book http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Complete-History-Daniels/dp/B000A1ETTC/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357451246&sr=1-1&keywords=batman+the+complete+history you'll see that shortly after the latter case, DC instituted a rule that heroes couldn't kill villains. This policy is one of the things which kept DC in the clear during the 1950s comic book witch hunt, because it was something they could point to to show their comics weren't turning kids into murderers.

He had no issue beating them to death, setting them on fire, and Batman even used guns.


Really? I don't remember this happening, can you cite which issues this happened in? I might be mistaken but I just don't remember that.

Issues arose however because at the same time Batman was on the market, there was another superhero called The Shadow. Maybe, just maybe you might have heard of him. The similarities between Batman and The Shadow were staggering.

Batman was more inspired by Zorro but yes I'm aware of many of the masked pulp heroes who were around at the time. James Gordon was a police commissioner/vigilante hero for example. http://www.adventurehouse.com/contents/en-us/d160.html It's awfully strange that they didn't change his name if they were really worried about getting sued. Seems more likely that DC would just say Batman was naturally inspired by Superman, since they used the claim to having the first real "superhero" as a way to sue a better-selling competitor out of business not long after by claiming Captain Marvel was infringing on Superman.

Batman Killing People
http://io9.com/5759535/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-batman
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/batman_movies/news/?a=49514


*Cough* mark.


Already addressed this both in my previous post (which you somehow called "irrelevant" to his character) and in this one.
Since all of the rest of your post is just you insulting me and claiming that I must know nothing about the character, despite a lack of actual proof** because I disagree with you, I see no reason to respond to the rest of it or to you again. The only thing I don't get is if you really think your opinion is the only one that matters, why you're on a board to hear other's opinions in the first place? Or do you just like to hear yourself talk (metaphorically speaking) and no one followed your blog? That's not an insult I'm just genuinely curious as to the thought process there.

*Like not noting how I said he got along about as fine as he ever had post grim/gritty reboot, which means yeah shitty as compared to the pre-Death in the Family days. But I didn't say it didn't change anything about his character, just that there wasn't anything showing the necessity of Batman Inc. or of changing Batman's character in such fundamental ways.

He carried a gun for defense in the very first comics and also breaks a guy's neck by swing-kicking it. Those first few issues he kills quite a few criminals, actually.

Then Robin came along and pussified the whole show.

Addressed this above. If you want to read the earlier Batman stories though you really should check out that volume of the Batman Chronicles, it's only about $10 and I think you'll really dig it.

I read alot of manga so b/w only does not affect me and the clear art work you said would help me understand lines abit more. but I did look these up and these were not the ones I read back  in middle school I searched on-line abit and these were the two I read





This is where it's at  ;D good classic stuff.

Oh yeah the archive editions, I remember getting some of them through inter-library loan, great stuff. Too bad they're so expensive though. The New Teen Titans now actually has a couple of giant hardback omnibuses you can buy that would be cheaper than the archive editions. But still might be less expensive to get copies of the original comics, since the Wolfman/Perez era Teen Titans sold very well.

PS- I remember there was one time Batman pushed a giant Buddha statue onto a bunch of chinese thugs/drug smugglers to, that was pretty messed up. Especially how it shows a random Chinese woman telling her daughter they should thank Batman for ridding them of this menace at the end lol. But then this was the era of the racist "Yellow Peril" (earlier issues of Detective Comics actually featured Fu-Manchu himself) so what can you expect.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 10:57:24 PM by Ratty »

Offline Neobelmont

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Re: Comic Books
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2013, 11:39:26 PM »
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He carried a gun for defense in the very first comics and also breaks a guy's neck by swing-kicking it. Those first few issues he kills quite a few criminals, actually.

Then Robin came along and pussified the whole show.

Robin came along because batman was considered too "dark" at time right?

but hey look at the good side at least we got knightwing.

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