Topic: Save your criticism

[Ahasverus]

Dear Pfil:

This argument will lead us until the end of time, sadly. Feels come differently for different people, and hey, the score won the only VG music award that is worth a damn that ir's given by, not only musicians, but important composers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Film_Music_Critics_Association) demeriting the score because chord progressions or whatever, is a little tiring and futile, it's damn recognized great music (not even good, great).
I know you held the series very dear and you have some personal notions of what it is and should be (In my opinion very IGA centered and not really castlevania centered, which is sad) and then, well, nothing to do, if it doesn't do anything to you, that's sad, and if it's not Castlevania for you (and other people of course) ok that's sad, but hey, many other people are just fine with it, and enjoy it for what it is. No need to demerit and piss over other people party.

[Dracula9]

I for one think the LoS score is not supposed to reflect the /game/ but Gabriel's feelings, and it's in my opinion very melancholic. I feel it.

I just want to poke my head in the door for a moment to second this, because I totally agree with it. There isn't much I can add that hasn't already been said, so I don't really know if this qualifies as a spampost (since all I did was quote to agree).

*withdraws head and closes door*

[Belmontoya]

Ok Pfil. I think I see what you meant now. It must have been an English thing. All I can say is hopefully LOS2 will be more appealing to you.

I'm so sick right now I can barely think. Have a nice night everyone!

[Pfil]

Dear Pfil:

This argument will lead us until the end of time, sadly. Feels come differently for different people, and hey, the score won the only VG music award that is worth a damn that ir's given by, not only musicians, but important composers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Film_Music_Critics_Association) demeriting the score because chord progressions or whatever, is a little tiring and futile, it's damn recognized great music (not even good, great).
I know you held the series very dear and you have some personal notions of what it is and should be (In my opinion very IGA centered and not really castlevania centered, which is sad) and then, well, nothing to do, if it doesn't do anything to you, that's sad, and if it's not Castlevania for you (and other people of course) ok that's sad, but hey, many other people are just fine with it, and enjoy it for what it is. No need to demerit and piss over other people party.

It's OK. I don't think one of the film music critics would know what Castlevania music has been like for 25 years, they just like film music, which is what LoS's score is.
Yes, my preference of Castlevania is more RPG-centered, but I don't care if it's Iga who does it. He just happens to be the men behind those games, but if in the future anyone else does it, I'm happy with it.
I can accept as subjective any notions that I (and other fans) feel strongly about other subjects of the game, but with music there's not much subjective viewings, anyone can like it or not, but the truth is that the music didn't follow any of the Castlevania established lines on musical theory and composition. That's not my opinion, I just stated it, but anyone can analyze it and come to the same conclusion.
It's OK if you or if anyone likes it, I'm not against it and I'm OK with it. If you perceive it as melancholic, that's OK, I'm not going to argue about that, because that's a personal perception.
I don't like it, I find it to be boring and everything I already said. That's also a personal perception.
Many people find the LotR soundtracks to be excellent, but they bore me to death. On the other hand, I find some of Hans Zimmer's early works or typical Ennio Morricone music to fill that place. While other people don't agree with me.
But the facts about musical theory are not my opinion.
I just wanted to clarify that.

Ok Pfil. I think I see what you meant now. It must have been an English thing. All I can say is hopefully LOS2 will be more appealing to you.

I'm so sick right now I can barely think. Have a nice night everyone!

Thanks. I don't think so, but my hopes are on 2014, these eternal years with only a handful of Pachislot and CV HD tracks as new CV music to listen to are coming to en end finally.
Nice night to you too!

[Inccubus]

Dear Pfil:

This argument will lead us until the end of time, sadly. Feels come differently for different people, and hey, the score won the only VG music award that is worth a damn that ir's given by, not only musicians, but important composers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Film_Music_Critics_Association) demeriting the score because chord progressions or whatever, is a little tiring and futile, it's damn recognized great music (not even good, great).
I know you held the series very dear and you have some personal notions of what it is and should be (In my opinion very IGA centered and not really castlevania centered, which is sad) and then, well, nothing to do, if it doesn't do anything to you, that's sad, and if it's not Castlevania for you (and other people of course) ok that's sad, but hey, many other people are just fine with it, and enjoy it for what it is. No need to demerit and piss over other people party.

Awards meaningless in this conversation. They are nothing but sensationalized opinions anyway.
Also, there's nothing sad about some of us not liking the LoS score. It's no more sad than you and others liking it despite the obvious departure from the spirit of the series. And honestly it sounds a bit condescending when put in that way.

[Belmontoya]

It is sad that there are fans that don't like anything about the current game. It would be happy if everyone liked it. He is not being condescending.

And awards are not the most important thing, but they count for something.

No need to defuse everything the guy said.

And are you really that easily offended? It was a harmless comment. Really.

[Pfil]

Everyone has their sensibilities on different places. Mine is exactly where Castlevania's sensibility was.
To put it better: Castlevania sensibility has resided for 25 years in a baroque and classic sensibility. That is art, those are feelings, but because it is music, it can be explained with an exact science.
In music, feelings can be explained with theory, whether the listener is aware of that or not.
LoS score resides in a sensibility more identified perhaps with the 20th century classical music, something someone stated some replies ago. And that's a style that has been used in fantasy films like Lord of the Rings, hence, I linked to it in my previous reply. That's clearly not a style identified with the Castlevania feel.
Why I refered to all that theory? To justify my point of view with facts so what I'm saying don't come across as just a rant because I don't like the score... because that is totally not the case. The fact that I completely dislike what Araujo does has nothing to do with the proven fact that he stepped away from everything Castlevania music has always been.

About what is and what isn't sad...
The way I see it, it is sad to see what Castlevania has become, and the fear of never having again a ClassicVania, MetroidVania or even a 3D game like LoD or a 2.5D game like DXC.
Sad is that I had to endure these long and neverending years since 2008, because my passion for CV won't fade away but I have nothing new to feed it with, so I had to play Judgment and CV HD, and replay several games (all of them, I believe) from the 1986-2008 period.
Sad is that I'm happy every time a new Pachislot theme comes out, when in another time I was receiving a complete Michiru Yamane soundtrack on a one per year basis.

And about the awards... the people behind them is the same people that lets masterpieces like "The Other Boleyn Girl" and "The Man In The Iron Mask" soundtracks fade into obscurity and oblivion, while giving awards to The Lord of the Rings soundtrack just because it is The Lord of the Rings, or crap like The Dark Knight soundtrack, and the Joker theme receiving praise all over the globe when it's just... noise; the same concept applied when awarding motion pictures.
Not to mention the fact that film music critics know anything about VG industry in general, and even less about Castlevania.

I totally agree with Inccubus, awards are just glorified opinions.

But to be clear, no I'm not offended.
And I respect Ahasverus opinion. As well as yours.

About the current game, I guess no one liked Mirror of Fate.

[Belmontoya]

I actually thought the Dark Knight soundtrack was great. As well as Batman Begins. I realize they are way more popular films than The Man in the Iron Mask and The Other Boleyn Girl. Those movies had great soundtracks too. But I see no reason why TDK was unworthy of an award.

Awards are glorified opinions, but they still count as positive praise, they shouldn't be ignored just because you don't agree with them. If the awards were given to the soundtracks you love, you may be citing them in your posts as well.

However, I can relate to your frustration and sadness, because I went through the same thing during the last half of IGA's games. I became so bored with his formulas that I was buying his games only because I collect Castlevanias. I would play through a quarter or a half of them and get incredibly bored and put it away. There were exceptions like DOS, but there were at least 3 or 4 games that I felt were a waste of money. I consider Mirror of Fate a waste of money too. But I am life fan, and avid collector of CV, so I buy, buy, buy.

When I first played SOTN it felt as foreign to me as LOS did. Classic CV's were never like that. Simon's Quest or Vampire Killer were the closest things. But they were about as similar to SOTN as the 64 titles are to LOS. Perhaps these differences were amplified with LOS because it was a 3DVania on top of all it's new changes. But I came to love SOTN, just like I came to love LOS. Both games made perplexing first impressions on me.

If Mercury Steam took over CV for the next decade, you would feel as I did about the IGA games. But I don't think you will have to endure that, so rest easy.

That being said, there is still A LOT I would do differently with LOS. As I said, I prefer the classicvania formula. I didn't like a lot of the story and character changes they made. It drifted the storyline more into the realm of fantasy, where I would sail it more to the gritty land of reality. That is why I am working on a fan reboot of the entire series with Mig. It will be a classicvania with many new twists, and it will base everything off of the real Vlad Tepes. Of course it will dive into mythology and the supernatural, but it will come from the same place that Dracula the character actually came from. Many more small details are based off of actual events, as well as the origin of the protagonist.

I found solace mostly in fan games throughout the last half of IGA's reign. Perhaps you could do the same?

I would suggest checking out Mig's game, Castlevania: The Lecarde Chronicles. In  my opinion, it is a masterpiece.

[DoctaMario]

Whaaaaattt??? 

Pfil it sounds to me like you just typed that unless a piece of music has a certain chord progression, then you don't like it and it's not "appropriate." I just want to clarify this.

I have a music degree, have studied many kinds of music (including classical extensively) and I can tell you that it's about how the melodies are harmonized and arranged. You're not wrong when you talk about chord progressions, but the progressions are dictated by the melodies above them. I could write a piece with that chord progression you mentioned (which, as far as I can tell has only been used, or something close to it, in a couple CV pieces that I can think of) and it could be completely out of character.

If you dislike the LoS OST as much as you say, I'd doubt you've gone through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure there aren't any "major tonics in a minor key theme followed by a 4th grade" (a major tonic in a minor key is just a III chord.) If anything, a lot of it is hard to hear in-game, and it was only when I listened to the OST by itself that I really discovered how beautiful it was. Some of Araujo's pieces DO follow classical form and progressions, but they owe more to modern classical music. If you don't like Araujo's style that's one thing, but to use theory to prove that the music is "factually wrong" is BS. Stop.

It sounds to me like you want everything in a minor key (boring and loses effectiveness if EVERY piece is minor) and centered around a i-V-i type of vibe. But what about a piece like the Library theme in Castlevania 4 that doesn't use those progressions, is in major key? It's the character of the piece that makes it work. It's a great piece, but it's nothing like what you're talking about. Or how about 'Rainbow Cave' from SoTN that uses more of a club music feel that really wasn't a part of Castlevania until then. One could say that was out of character, but now it's the norm. And I don't think you could argue that there's anything "classical" or "baroque" about any of the soundtracks in the first several CV games, at least not until CV4. I think your definitions of what's "appropriate" or not are pretty narrow.

I'm going to guess that you haven't been a fan of the series for terribly long. I have, since Simon's Quest actually. And I'm thankful that they didn't decide to make every game the same thing. Because as much as I love, especially the classic games, I don't want every game to be the exact same thing. That's how MegaMan ended up where it is today. You can play the Castleroid games as much as you want to. They'll exist forever if you want to play them. The new things, the different things, are what make the series interesting. If you don't like them, you can always play the games you DO like.

[crisis]

When I first played SOTN it felt as foreign to me as LOS did

I've heard this statement from several different fans before over the years, but the difference from what they said & what you've said, is that those people claim Symphony was more of a departure from Castlevania than LoS is. What I don't understand is, how exactly did Symphony feel alien to the series as much if not more than LoS? When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc. Even Trevor's 8-bit sprite makes a cameo. The only thing that was really "foreign" was the map progression & RPG elements, and even that arguably had it's roots from Simon's Quest.

I guess I can kinda understand how one might say only at first SotN seemed foreign to him/her, until playing the game more thoroughly & realizing it's very much in tune with the "spirit" of Castlevania. I suppose that's how some gradually came to accept LoS, since it still retains at least some "Castlevanian" elements (highly debatable on how much, I know), whilst at the same time [admittingly] leaving out a lot of "Castlevanian" elements.

[DoctaMario]

I've heard this statement from several different fans before over the years, but the difference from what they said & what you've said, is that those people claim Symphony was more of a departure from Castlevania than LoS is. What I don't understand is, how exactly did Symphony feel alien to the series as much if not more than LoS? When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc. Even Trevor's 8-bit sprite makes a cameo. The only thing that was really "foreign" was the map progression & RPG elements, and even that arguably had it's roots from Simon's Quest.

I guess I can kinda understand how one might say only at first SotN seemed foreign to him/her, until playing the game more thoroughly & realizing it's very much in tune with the "spirit" of Castlevania. I suppose that's how some gradually came to accept LoS, since it still retains at least some "Castlevanian" elements (highly debatable on how much, I know), whilst at the same time [admittingly] leaving out a lot of "Castlevanian" elements.

-Emphasis on exploration over action and platforming
-Main character using a sword rather than a whip and being a non-Belmont
-RPG elements

Those were the big ones for me. The last CV game I'd played before SoTN was Bloodlines, and there's a world of difference between those two games. Even with the spirit and such, it's still a very different game from what came before.

[Belmontoya]

I loved how gory and raw Bloodlines was. It almost reminded me of Splatterhouse.

What was really different for me was my state of mind while playing a game like Bloodlines Vs SOTN.

When I play a game like Bloodlines I am playing a game of mostly instinct and memory. This, to me is what Castlevania was about.

When I played SOTN and the Metriodvanias, I had so many more things to think about other than the action. I had to think "do I have the right item equipped"?,  "How do I get past this door?", and thoughts like "I think I need to be a higher level to survive this". And not to be forgotten, the oh so present "Am I going the right direction".

I didn't like having to think about all of that extra stuff. It took the animalistic feeling of playing Castlevania away from me. This was the BIG difference. It made me use my brain in a whole different way. And it took that away from me in the one place I went to escape that kind of thinking, my favorite video game.

There were other games that already filled this void to me, like Zelda and Metriod. This is what bothered me, because Castlevania was the only game that gave me that other sort of experience, and it was no longer doing that. There are plenty of ways to achieve that kind of gameplay, but when too many RPG elements are implemented, the experience 180's into something completely different.

I got used to it and learned to enjoy the game. But from that point on, new Castlevanias were rarely the game that I fell in love with when I was 6 years old.

LOS felt a little more action based to me, but not as much as I would have hoped.

[crisis]

-Emphasis on exploration over action and platforming

Yes, but many would argue that it's just continuing what CVII started

Main character using a sword rather than a whip and being a non-Belmont

Ya, but it wasn't like it was out of left field or anything. Your first time playing Symphony you automatically know you're playing as Belmont, albeit shortly after explaining why you must switch to Dracula's own son, etc.

As you progress, a lot more things became familiar & evident, from classic enemies (Medusa Heads, Bone Pillars, etc.), story elements (literally seeing Alucard envision Trevor yells out to the player "THIS IS A CVIII REFERENCE!"), classic subweapons, classic boss fights, even mundane things such as spiked traps/hazards (as easy as they were to overcome, with the exception being the blacked-out cave where you need to use Bat Sonar), wall-meat, doorways (elegantly updated to accomodate the transitioning from 1 area to the next). I agree, it did a lot of things different (overall difficulty probably being the most obvious from the start), but at the same time kept a lot of things from the classics, so it retained Castlevania's identity. It may not seem like much, but sometimes the little details amount to a lot, and can make or break a player's experience. I wish LoS had more of these "short but sweet" details (they were present, don't get me wrong, but few & far between. I realize Gabriel's armor is essentially an updated/modernized version of Simon's CVII armor), and more throwbacks. Instead they gave us, umm.. a Solid Snake eyepatch, which was more or less an homage to Kojima, not the fans. And a MGS jingle when you're sneaking through the walls prior to fighting the Butcher.


I just don't see how anyone can debate Symphony was a HUGE departure from the series considering some of the examples I listed, when LoS initially told us to "forget everything we know." Yeah it's a reboot, so we're expected to "forget" everything, but there have been reboots for other series that didn't drastically change everything up like LoS did. Sometimes I wonder, had LoS been pitched as a 2D or 2.5D game instead, how much of it would have changed/stayed the same?

[Belmontoya]

I would debate that with what I just said above.

[crisis]

So you're basically saying Symphony was a huge departure for you because you had to think more? Or think a different way?

If that's true for you, then that's totally fine, to each their own. I just don't see how "using your brain a whole different way" can be a negative thing, but alas, everybody's different. MegaMan Legends is vastly different from all the others, I had to use my brain a different way there, too. But it didn't bother me since I like using my brain in different ways, video games or otherwise.