Topic: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?

[Nagumo]

Not true actually. If you read the link further, they detail not only the things that got lost in translation, but aspects of the game that WERE flat out lies (the bit about the boatman loving garlic for example, but there are several others.)

Sure, but they are always half truths to point you in the right direction. The game itself also indicated this in the Japanese version because the villager sometimes say "rumor has it", and so on. So, I don't think you can use that argument to say that our mystery woman was lying to Simon.

It's still Dracula's essence. Maxim's jealousy+Dracula's Essence=Dracula Wraith. So it's him but it's not him. I don't know if that counts. But with that said, none of the canon had been established, so it was more like, "Dracula comes back in his full form, or not at all" at that point.

Sure. But the Dracula Wraith didn't exist until about one year before HoD's events. Therefore, it's impossible for Dracula's hand from CVII to be the Dracula Wraith. Trust me, I considered that possibility before. 

I think much like the importance of the mystery woman, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Especially in light of what C Belmont said about Koutei saying no one was really a strong English speaker. I'd be more inclined to believe something Shiroi translated as her English is strong. But either way, we'll agree to disagree on this one.        

Actually, Inccubus linked to an alternate translation by another person who translated it the same way as Koutei and JPCVFAN. It's the same guy who translated the game's dialogue, so you can't say his English is also insufficient.     

If anything that link supports the theory that Simon missed the fang and therefore Dracula was able to come back because one of his body parts wasn't burned. Simon beats Drac and breaks the curse, but Drac is still able to return via that technicality.

That's impossible because Simon could only break the curse until he burned all body parts. Dracula bursts into flames when you defeat him, so I assume that Simon burned the final body part at that moment and then broke the curse.

[Lelygax]

What you're suggesting is grammatically impossible in English. If what you're suggesting would have been true it would have said: "Dracula's false castle". For example, you say "Dracula's large castle", not "Large Dracula's castle". 

Its not a suggestion, its indeed what is written in this page. a "'s" after something means that its talking about something owned by this person.

I don't think that's correct. It's explained very well here: http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/hod/index.html

Okay, even so its Dracula, a incomplete Dracula like I've said earlier. Also its not a official explation, but even so Im not discarding it.

I don't think so. Rembember, it's the worst ending we're talking about, and it only appears when your playtime is ridiculously long... I strongly doubt it was intended as a "teaser" for a next game.
If anything, it would have meant: "see you again" in a different playthrough of the game, where you'll probably try, well, not to take as long.

Please, re-read it or go read it in bisqwit's website, this message only appears on the best ending and isnt related to a variable flag, only the hand is.

Now, you've given me the first part of the ending dialogue, but not the rest. Here's what happens after the battle.

Sorry thats not my intention, I've only pasted everything that I've seen, I forgot about the dialogue that happens after that. Even so Simon Wraith is named Shimon in the japanese version IIRC correctly, me or someone else would need to check that. While Shimon is meant to be a pun, Dracula isnt.

I don't think that's the case here. Note that the bright blue colors of daytime seem far more joyful, and far more indicative of a "best" ending than the darker, orange tinge of dusk. Now, I don't believe the worst ending is there as a "black and white photo". Remember, the endings depend on how long you take to complete the game. So here's how they should have been ordered:
The worst ending: Night
The good ending: Dusk
The best ending: Daytime
See? Doesn't that make more sense? And yet that's not how it's done in the game...

This doesnt seem to change anything, since the game itself doesnt happens in one day only. Even so I compliment you because this explanation is very good.

Sure. But the Dracula Wraith didn't exist until about one year before HoD's events. Therefore, it's impossible for Dracula's hand from CVII to be the Dracula Wraith. Trust me, I considered that possibility before. 

Sure, because no one found it until then. Only because they dont discovered something yet, doesnt means that it doesnt exists. We only need to take a look in HoD to see that Dracula was in a very weak state.

Actually, Inccubus linked to an alternate translation by another person who translated it the same way as Koutei and JPCVFAN. It's the same guy who translated the game's dialogue, so you can't say his English is also insufficient. 

Well, we should need to check that, I've noticed that his translation in Finnish have some puns adapted while its left out in the English version, being a translation without adapting the joke. This shows that maybe he had some difficulty to translate it, so while its very well translated maybe something could've slipped.

That's impossible because Simon could only break the curse until he burned all body parts. Dracula bursts into flames when you defeat him, so I assume that Simon burned the final body part at that moment and then broke the curse.

Are you being serious? Almost all enemies burns when they die in a Castlevania game, its really difficult to say it now, since we dont know if self-combustion still counts.

But remember that Dracula would return when the curse kills Simon, here he returned before that, maybe the curse was broken because Dracula has been defeated?

Also try to dont take it personally, but you are trying to act like some old user using "impossible" in almost every response. Only wanted to point your that since I've never seen you act like that before, so if someone is hurting you in some way is better to talk with this user instead of holding this grudge and acting like that.

[C Belmont]

Now, I don't believe the worst ending is there as a "black and white photo".

Well it certainly can’t be night because the hand sequence shows what the night palette looks like and its colouring even closely matches how night is depicted in the rest of the game.

Note that the bright blue colors of daytime seem far more joyful and far more indicative of a "best" ending”

Personally I think the day colours just look boring & undramatic, even the shadow of the grave in the endings seems like it was made to fit with a more dramatic time of day. You’re also assuming that the “best” ending must necessarily be a happy one but all it needs to do is reward the player somehow. If you examine the endings next to each other you will notice that in the order the game uses the player is given increasingly more for their effort and the best ending is the longest sequence with the most reward. 

[DoctaMario]

Sure, but they are always half truths to point you in the right direction. The game itself also indicated this in the Japanese version because the villager sometimes say "rumor has it", and so on. So, I don't think you can use that argument to say that our mystery woman was lying to Simon.

Not always. I wasnt really trying to use that to make the case that she was lying, I guess the big problem we have is that the different versions of the game say different things. So in a way, we almost have different versions of the same story. And given that, I almost
Don't see the point of debating this any further.

Sure. But the Dracula Wraith didn't exist until about one year before HoD's events. Therefore, it's impossible for Dracula's hand from CVII to be the Dracula Wraith. Trust me, I considered that possibility before. 

I know the hand isn't the Dracula Wraith. What I was saying was that back around CV2 Dracula was either alive or dead, there were no ghostly versions of him because they hadnt gotten that far into thr canon yet to establish that he could return in a less than physical form.

Actually, Inccubus linked to an alternate translation by another person who translated it the same way as Koutei and JPCVFAN. It's the same guy who translated the game's dialogue, so you can't say his English is also insufficient. 

Honestly that jive looked like some fanfic stuff. Was it a translation of a cutscene or something? All the stage directions and stuff. Is it supposed to be a translation of the Jap manual? I'd still be more inclined to believe Shiroui than some random guy with all sorts of stage plotting around it. But it's whatever.

That's impossible because Simon could only break the curse until he burned all body parts. Dracula bursts into flames when you defeat him, so I assume that Simon burned the final body part at that moment and then broke the curse.

So then he didn't break thr curse because according to the guidebook you mentioned, there was a 6th body part we don't obtain in the game.

At this juncture I think I'm out. Seeing as his we have to rely on translations (which are based on the translator's whims really, as we've found out from the translations of the game's text) I just see us going roujd and round on this. I don feel the mystery woman or her words are that important to the story because they aren't referenced in the game, and as we know, Simon lived on, yet Dracula came back. How? DRACULA'S MAGIC!! (dun dun dunnnnnn)

[Nagumo]

Its not a suggestion, its indeed what is written in this page. a "'s" after something means that its talking about something owned by this person.

Yes, the castle is owned by the false Dracula. There's no other way to interpret it. Ask any native English speaking person on this board. 

Okay, even so its Dracula, a incomplete Dracula like I've said earlier. Also its not a official explation, but even so Im not discarding it.

What I linked to uses evidence from the game itself to proof that it's correct. I don't want to sound arrogant, but that is the offical explanation.

Sure, because no one found it until then. Only because they dont discovered something yet, doesnt means that it doesnt exists. We only need to take a look in HoD to see that Dracula was in a very weak state.

If you take a look at the link I posted, you can see it's impossible for the Dracula Wraith to exists before 1748. To follow the simple explanation from the website:

Wicked spirit + Dracula's remains = Dracula Wraith

The wicked spirit is Maxim's alternate persona created because of the power of Dracula's remains. Although Dracula's remains existed in 1698, Maxim's wicked spirit did not. Therefore, it's not possible for the Dracula Wraith to exist at that time.   

Are you being serious? Almost all enemies burns when they die in a Castlevania game, its really difficult to say it now, since we dont know if self-combustion still counts.

What's your point? Combustion is still combustion. It counts. 

But remember that Dracula would return when the curse kills Simon, here he returned before that, maybe the curse was broken because Dracula has been defeated?

Technically, he returned as a ghost. That doesn't count as a revival because he's still dead. I think when the curse reaches it's peak and Simon dies, it would result in Dracula actually coming back to life. I think Simon broke the curse in the end because Dracula's last body part was burned (which you can clearly see since Dracula has a pretty elaborate burning animation when he is defeated).     

Also try to dont take it personally, but you are trying to act like some old user using "impossible" in almost every response. Only wanted to point your that since I've never seen you act like that before, so if someone is hurting you in some way is better to talk with this user instead of holding this grudge and acting like that.

Don't worry, I'm just being objective. Some of the things you suggested are not compatible with the storyline. I don't mean to offend anyone when I say that.

Not always. I wasnt really trying to use that to make the case that she was lying, I guess the big problem we have is that the different versions of the game say different things. So in a way, we almost have different versions of the same story. And given that, I almost
Don't see the point of debating this any further.

I don't see the point either because I don't understand the relevance of it.  The American version is different because of poor localization. OK, what's your point? The Japanese storyline always takes precedence over the English storyline because the Japanese version is the original version of the game. In any case, just ignore what the American version says.   

I know the hand isn't the Dracula Wraith. What I was saying was that back around CV2 Dracula was either alive or dead, there were no ghostly versions of him because they hadnt gotten that far into thr canon yet to establish that he could return in a less than physical form.

Dracula II: Noroi no Fūin Kanzen Hisshōbo says Dracula appears as a ghost at the end of the game.

Honestly that jive looked like some fanfic stuff. Was it a translation of a cutscene or something? All the stage directions and stuff. Is it supposed to be a translation of the Jap manual? I'd still be more inclined to believe Shiroui than some random guy with all sorts of stage plotting around it. But it's whatever.

Bisqwit wanted to add a new custom intro for his re-translation of Simon's Quest. That explains all the stage direction stuff. Because he faithfully translated the dialogue, you can also assume he did the same thing with the intro. I don't think it's fair how my evidence keeps getting dismissed. I proofed three times already what the correct translation is.

So then he didn't break thr curse because according to the guidebook you mentioned, there was a 6th body part we don't obtain in the game.

Simon burns the body part when he defeats Dracula, though. That's the moment he breaks the curse. Not before.     

[DoctaMario]

Bisqwit wanted to add a new custom intro for his re-translation of Simon's Quest. That explains all the stage direction stuff. Because he faithfully translated the dialogue, you can also assume he did the same thing with the intro. I don't think it's fair how my evidence keeps getting dismissed. I proofed three times already what the correct translation is.

I'm not trying to be dismissive (although you did your fair share of being dismissive in the first couple exchanges we had) but there wasn't any context to that link Inccubus posted. It looks like a mockup of a cutscene or something and there's no indication that that was supposed to be a translation of the manual. If that's what it is, then I believe you, but you guys can't just come up posting links without context and expect the rest of us to just take your word for it, especially not if you're trying to use it as proof of your already shaky point.

Simon burns the body part when he defeats Dracula, though. That's the moment he breaks the curse. Not before.   

Is the fang already on Dracula's person? If not where does it come from since Simon never possesses it in game? The way I looked at it, if he doesn't burn all the body parts, then Dracula's defeat at Simon's hands was more like a "KO" rather than death. Maybe KO'ing Dracula was enough to lift the curse somehow. I don't know, this is all speculation.

[Nagumo]

I think this is a good point to break off the discussion. I don't get anything new to say. Let's agree to disagree for now. Since we argued for so long I think we almost deserve to get a definite answer somehow. 

However, if anyone wants to talk about another aspect of my theory, feel free to do so.

[Intersection]

Yup, seems we've gone as far as we can go here. Yet it shouldn't be so difficult. I had hoped all of the links I'd piled up on my other post could come to good use. Well, it seems they'll be for another time.
I'm curious as to why so many translations of what's essentially the same text can have such contradictory meanings. There aren't exactly that many ways in which to translate a language. It shouldn't get this confusing...

Please, re-read it or go read it in bisqwit's website, this message only appears on the best ending and isnt related to a variable flag, only the hand is.

Here's the text from bisqwit's website:

Beat game at day 15-99. String numbers: Japanese=32-47; 48-81, English=32-47
Explanation: The word, "live", is an authentic typo in the Japanese version.
The Japanese version contains an easter egg: If the game was beat exactly on day 69 (not before, not later), an extra line is displayed after the text: SEE YOU AGAIN. The English version still contains this check, but it does not work, because the text is shorter and thus never reaches line number 80.

So it is from the worst ending, and you need to take 69 days to beat the game to obtain it.

Nagumo:
I'll grant you a few questions. 
How are you considering transitioning CVI-III's classic style to a more... IGA-ish approach? Does that mean a full switch to the Metroidvania gameplay style, or should it be more of the compromise? Unless you were just commenting about the story or the art style?

[Lelygax]

Here's the text from bisqwit's website:So it is from the worst ending, and you need to take 69 days to beat the game to obtain it.

....
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I cant believe that I made this mistake!!!
Phoenix Wright's Breakdown (With Music)


I've remembered something only now, Castlevania had different names in Japan, so this is really strange. CV1 is Akumajou Dracula and CV2 is Dracula II, until this part I can understand, since Dracula's castle barely appears in CV2. But why CV3 is named Akumajou Densetsu if its barely tells something about the castle?

Now we have also Dracula Densetsu that is Castlevania Adventure, a game that doesnt show anything about Dracula backstory like CV3 did.

I know that its just names, but maybe this can be holding a hidden meaning in it.

[DoctaMario]

I think this is a good point to break off the discussion. I don't get anything new to say. Let's agree to disagree for now. Since we argued for so long I think we almost deserve to get a definite answer somehow. 

However, if anyone wants to talk about another aspect of my theory, feel free to do so.

Agreed.  Interesting debate though. I learned a few things about a game I thought I knew everything about. I wonder if one of our Japanese speaking members could get in touch with someone who worked on the games and glean a little info to get more concrete answers?

I'm curious as to why so many translations of what's essentially the same text can have such contradictory meanings. There aren't exactly that many ways in which to translate a language. It shouldn't get this confusing...

There's an art to translation. It's a matter of the translator deciding which words preserve thr meaning of the original text the best and different translators have different opinions which can change meanings as languages evolve. It's part of why the Bible is so misunderstood sometimes.

[Nagumo]

Nagumo:
I'll grant you a few questions. 
How are you considering transitioning CVI-III's classic style to a more... IGA-ish approach? Does that mean a full switch to the Metroidvania gameplay style, or should it be more of the compromise? Unless you were just commenting about the story or the art style?

I would personally go for something entirely original, but if I had to choose I would go for full-on metroidvania. No point in adhering to the original besides the (tweaked) story and characters, I think.

[Intersection]

....
.
.
.
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I cant believe that I made this mistake!!!
Phoenix Wright's Breakdown (With Music)

I laughed to pieces when I saw that.
Funny how the same animations you've seen for years can still surprise you...

I've remembered something only now, Castlevania had different names in Japan, so this is really strange. CV1 is Akumajou Dracula and CV2 is Dracula II, until this part I can understand, since Dracula's castle barely appears in CV2. But why CV3 is named Akumajou Densetsu if its barely tells something about the castle?

Now we have also Dracula Densetsu that is Castlevania Adventure, a game that doesnt show anything about Dracula backstory like CV3 did.

I know that its just names, but maybe this can be holding a hidden meaning in it.

That's another mystery. Conjecture as we may, I don't think we'll ever solve this one either. But it's always fun to try. 

Agreed.  Interesting debate though. I learned a few things about a game I thought I knew everything about. I wonder if one of our Japanese speaking members could get in touch with someone who worked on the games and glean a little info to get more concrete answers?

If we could achieve that, we'd strike gold. I'm not sure what we could achieve that others haven't already (these people aren't known to be generous with information), but it's always worth a try. I'm all for it.

There's an art to translation. It's a matter of the translator deciding which words preserve thr meaning of the original text the best and different translators have different opinions which can change meanings as languages evolve. It's part of why the Bible is so misunderstood sometimes.

I happen to know that firsthand. Yet even then, alternative translations shouldn't be so inconsistent as to give entirely contradictory meanings... I still feel there's something we're missing in that matter...

I would personally go for something entirely original, but if I had to choose I would go for full-on metroidvania. No point in adhering to the original besides the (tweaked) story and characters, I think.

Well, now. This thread has now gotten so much more interesting.

[Inccubus]

I'm not trying to be dismissive (although you did your fair share of being dismissive in the first couple exchanges we had) but there wasn't any context to that link Inccubus posted. It looks like a mockup of a cutscene or something and there's no indication that that was supposed to be a translation of the manual. If that's what it is, then I believe you, but you guys can't just come up posting links without context and expect the rest of us to just take your word for it, especially not if you're trying to use it as proof of your already shaky point.

I'd like to add to this the re-translation of the manual story that was added to a new custom intro for the CV2 re-translation patch by Bisqwit.

This is the transcript of the new intro:

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/cv2fin/dev/cv2retrans-prologue-2.9.8.txt

I explained what it was in my original post. I don't see how that can be interpreted as being out of context.

I'm curious as to why so many translations of what's essentially the same text can have such contradictory meanings. There aren't exactly that many ways in which to translate a language. It shouldn't get this confusing...

I should add that Japanese is difficult to translate because it relies heavily on context. More so than any of the romance languages.

I would personally go for something entirely original, but if I had to choose I would go for full-on metroidvania. No point in adhering to the original besides the (tweaked) story and characters, I think.

I imagine it would be something like the group mode in Dawn of Sorrow.

[Nagumo]

I explained what it was in my original post. I don't see how that can be interpreted as being out of context.

Does that mean we all can agree what the correct translation is? Or do we need to bring in another expert? 

Well, now. This thread has now gotten so much more interesting.

I was thinking yesterday how a CV3 reimagining would be the perfect opportunity to make its story actually fit it with the IGA story arc. As it stands now, it feels really disconnected. Not to mention, you actually have to ignore stuff to make it work. Seems such a waste of all the cool plot ideas that the game has, but have to be ignored so that it can fit into a larger framework.

For example, they could tie in the story with LoI, CoD, SotN, and maybe elements from the radio drama and Judgment. Besides the original cast they could add a whole bunch of characters in order to help expand the story. The ones I thought up so far are: Lisa, Lyudmil (Alucard's friend), Master Librarian (he and Alucard have a history, so it would make sense to fit that in somewhere), Hector, Isaac, and maybe Sara (as the Vampire Killer's consciousness). So, that would allow for plenty of extra content, I'd say.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I was thinking yesterday how a CV3 reimagining would be the perfect opportunity to make its story actually fit it with the IGA story arc. As it stands now, it feels really disconnected. Not to mention, you actually have to ignore stuff to make it work. Seems such a waste of all the cool plot ideas that the game has, but have to be ignored so that it can fit into a larger framework.

For example, they could tie in the story with LoI, CoD, SotN, and maybe elements from the radio drama and Judgment. Besides the original cast they could add a whole bunch of characters in order to help expand the story. The ones I thought up so far are: Lisa, Lyudmil (Alucard's friend), Master Librarian (he and Alucard have a history, so it would make sense to fit that in somewhere), Hector, Isaac, and maybe Sara (as the Vampire Killer's consciousness). So, that would allow for plenty of extra content, I'd say.

Lyudmil is Alucard's butler.

Yes. that would be a nice retelling for CV3. I'd buy that game.