Topic: Disappointment about new Castlevanias:bitterness, nostalgy, or legitimate view?

[Morning star]

I just want to say that i understand that my opinion here will be quickly turned back against me, and that's exactly what i expect. But here's the thing... I didn't mention LOS fans because i don't care what they think. I have heard a few people mention that the game would be "too hard" or whatever, lol. So what? Leave the dead weight behind. If they want to feel good, make them earn it, that's all im saying. The 'select your difficulty' options are a joke. It lowers skill levels across the board and gives people a false sense of accomplishment. I don't support anything that makes people weak. That's not what Castlevania is about.

As for the gameplay thing. It would not be like Simons quest. It may look kinda like it, but that's about it. With way better graphics of course and the game would not be SUPER EASY like Simons quest either. Oh no.. We are talking about a tough game were instead of being done with a level just by clearing it, you may need to come back and do it in reverse as well. You know, while you explore your metroidvania !!nightmare!! of a game

[GuyStarwind]

I could see it where you take fall damage at first but later getting some sort of item to prevent you from taking it

[zangetsu468]

It's been awhile since I've played a classic (or anything really...unfortunately).  I'd forgotten how much the mechanics affected the platforming...so you're right on that account for sure.  Smoother controls and play made platforming easier.  Still, it sounds like a really neat idea if it could be carefully and intelligently done.

I think it can be, I personally believe that the in the next couple of gens, console games won't necessarily be as accessible or without the learning curves of older games. I do believe that newer fans are very important, but developers know that the niche fanbase of older gamers - who were the backbones of certain franchises' success - and even newer gamers alike, are seeking something that this generation has potentially neglected. Take Castlevania as a series, personally I believe comes down to 2 factors
1) maintaining the integrity/ identity of what the older games (eg classicvania and metroidvania) brought to today's franchises
2) not being afraid to take risks that the previous generation of games took

What springs to mind for CV OOE's challenge tower (the one where you can't use Vol aticus) which to some extent involved heavy platforming and defeating very strong enemies (golems). Incorporating more areas like these into normal stages would be beneficial if the series is to continue in 2d.
I say again also, Lvl 1 Max cap hard is always a nice addition for seasoned vets, regardless of how difficult they make the game.

After thinking about it enough now, I can imagine a Belmont style SOTN game with insane platforming and levelling up.
Think you start with the leather whip, at L10 it becomes the thorn whip, L20 is the morning star, L30 would be the flame whip etc
Subweapons could become more powerful too i.e. the cross' range increases, the axe deducts more damage, the holy water's range increases, the sword sticks into enemies and deals residual damage, the watch slows time>stops time and later can potentially reverse time should the player desire. 

Actually, part of his idea reminds me a little of Joachim and Pumpkin modes in LoI and Trevor mode in CoD.  Picking up any potions or health items used them immediately, which makes the player play more cautiously...well, it did for me at least.  I remember paying much more attention to my health, and planning my attacks and dodges much more deliberately.

And I believe in the 2d games you didn't even pick up potions when playing as the second character. It was only the orb after defeating bosses.

Btw Joachim was awesome, and I was stoked they gave him an ending. Imagine an alternate canon where he became Lord of the Vampires, I actually smiled when I saw his ending

At that point why bother with death pits at all. why not just make it fall damage.

This is where LOD got it right, you fell, you were okay, you fell far, you lost up to 75% health, you took a leap of faith and you died. Exactly how it should be, falling has always equated to punishment in CV.

[zangetsu468]

I just want to say that i understand that my opinion here will be quickly turned back against me, and that's exactly what i expect. But here's the thing... I didn't mention LOS fans because i don't care what they think. I have heard a few people mention that the game would be "too hard" or whatever, lol. So what? Leave the dead weight behind. If they want to feel good, make them earn it, that's all im saying. The 'select your difficulty' options are a joke. It lowers skill levels across the board and gives people a false sense of accomplishment. I don't support anything that makes people weak. That's not what Castlevania is about.

I agree with this comment whole heartedly. It really pissed me off when MOF didn't have a harder setting and I realised oh you can pause it and select 'hard'.... FML (first world problems I know)

Not good enough, there needs to be higher difficulty, CV has nearly always maintained more challenges after finishing the game.

As for the gameplay thing. It would not be like Simons quest. It may look kinda like it, but that's about it. With way better graphics of course and the game would not be SUPER EASY like Simons quest either. Oh no.. We are talking about a tough game were instead of being done with a level just by clearing it, you may need to come back and do it in reverse as well. You know, while you explore your metroidvania !!nightmare!! of a game

Reminds of DMC4, or the inverted castle and I like that idea. I'm a big believer in innovative reuse of environments.

Read my post above to see my views on a Belmontvania.

[theANdROId]

What springs to mind for CV OOE's challenge tower (the one where you can't use Vol aticus) which to some extent involved heavy platforming and defeating very strong enemies (golems). Incorporating more areas like these into normal stages would be beneficial if the series is to continue in 2d.
I say again also, Lvl 1 Max cap hard is always a nice addition for seasoned vets, regardless of how difficult they make the game.

OoE was a blast!  I'm not sure if I liked OoE or CotM better...but they're my top 2 of ALL the portable CV titles.  I loved the difficulty of OoE.  I like to think I'm good at games, and I'm sure I'm reasonably skilled (as much as I play), but most of the bosses killed me on my first playthrough.  And the tower was awesome too!  If anything, I just fear cheapness...or too much cheapness.  For example, in OoE there was that cavern dungeon thing and in one room there were two of those hammer knights which were FREAKIN' ANNOYING!  When stuff like that is rampant, it's just cheap.  You're just being a...well, I can't recall the forum's profanity rules so I'll just say you're being obnoxious.  I don't think OoE did that, but I've played games that did, and I'd hate to see CV stoop to that level.

After thinking about it enough now, I can imagine a Belmont style SOTN game with insane platforming and levelling up.
Think you start with the leather whip, at L10 it becomes the thorn whip, L20 is the morning star, L30 would be the flame whip etc
Subweapons could become more powerful too i.e. the cross' range increases, the axe deducts more damage, the holy water's range increases, the sword sticks into enemies and deals residual damage, the watch slows time>stops time and later can potentially reverse time should the player desire. 

I LOVE this!!

[Morning star]

Quote from: zangetsu468 on Today at 06:57:20 PM

After thinking about it enough now, I can imagine a Belmont style SOTN game with insane platforming and levelling up.
Think you start with the leather whip, at L10 it becomes the thorn whip, L20 is the morning star, L30 would be the flame whip etc
Subweapons could become more powerful too i.e. the cross' range increases, the axe deducts more damage, the holy water's range increases, the sword sticks into enemies and deals residual damage, the watch slows time>stops time and later can potentially reverse time should the player desire.[quote/]


Quote by theANdROId

I LOVE this!!

I didn't see this, but let me 2nd the motion. I also love this!

This is the direction alright I was thinking when you kill a ghost the souls could float up like they do all over the stage in the giant bat stage in CV4. Only use a single graphic of it. Along with a great sound effect. And when you strike a fleshy enemy the blood spatter could fly back and land on the ground behind him. Maybe even turn the whip red? Kinda like what you see in mortal kombat. Etc and so on. Great stuff.

BTW.. Why is my part of the post not wrapped in quote tags but it is in blue like its part of what i quoted from another member?

[the_truth]

A lot of you seem to be asking for and describing exactly what this guy say he wants to do with his game:

http://sotnhacked.wordpress.com/

Now let's hope he doesn't mess it up and finishes it SOMETIME in my lifetime. 

Also I'd give my opinion on the franchise at the moment... but that would be a VERY long post, and its late now. Suffice to say something has to change.

[Flame]

A lot of you seem to be asking for and describing exactly what this guy say he wants to do with his game:

http://sotnhacked.wordpress.com/

Now let's hope he doesn't mess it up and finishes it SOMETIME in my lifetime. 

Also I'd give my opinion on the franchise at the moment... but that would be a VERY long post, and its late now. Suffice to say something has to change.

Oh boy, Esco.

He was here before actually.

He was a condescending egotistical asshole.

He barely ever listened to criticism, and insisted he could do basically no wrong. And when push came to shove, trash talked Jorge and ran because he was sick of hearing people criticize him. if you criticized him, he would literally put you on his ignore list.

I lost all interest in his project due to his rotten attitude and the fact that despite some ideas being not so great he would insist on them and argue and fucking ignore any complaints to the contrary.

Fuck him, seriously. He was a cunt.

[zangetsu468]

OoE was a blast!  I'm not sure if I liked OoE or CotM better...but they're my top 2 of ALL the portable CV titles.  I loved the difficulty of OoE.  I like to think I'm good at games, and I'm sure I'm reasonably skilled (as much as I play), but most of the bosses killed me on my first playthrough.  And the tower was awesome too!  If anything, I just fear cheapness...or too much cheapness.  For example, in OoE there was that cavern dungeon thing and in one room there were two of those hammer knights which were FREAKIN' ANNOYING!  When stuff like that is rampant, it's just cheap.  You're just being a...well, I can't recall the forum's profanity rules so I'll just say you're being obnoxious.  I don't think OoE did that, but I've played games that did, and I'd hate to see CV stoop to that level.

I think I finished the caverns on OOE and POR got quite difficult on the hardest setting, I only finished them on normal. The OOE Tower however, I did do on the hardest setting. POR's cavern had the creature x 2 which was difficult even on normal.
I believe it will only stoop to that level if the player chooses a mode where they just can not level up at all. Then again for experts of the game, situations such as this will always be a bonus. Currently I'm on hiatus playing Albus mode on L1 hard because I haven't been able to beat Dracula's 2nd form.

I LOVE this!!

Thank you. I believe the real bonus would be that say there was a mode where you couldn't level up, then you have to use base whip and base sub weapons, base armour, etc. I think that aspect could work very nicely. It wouldn't hurt to add new subweapons into the arsenal too; SOTN had the lightning spell and the salt etc.

[the_truth]

OK now that it is not so late I'm ready to type this out:

As I said before the Castlevania series as a whole MUST change. The fact is that old 2d style platformers on average DO NOT sell extremely well, and are not the most profitable option for a company to choose overall. If anyone has doubts about this, feel free to google the stats. There are of course exceptions to this, but they are few and far between. It is not a fact that I like, but business is business and companies will choose the more profitable route 99.9% of the time. And the fact is that there are many more genre's of video games that just sell WAY better than 2d platformers. Especially ones that simply use the ancient format of get points, clear stages, beaten in an hour or two, and done with it (ex. CV, CV3, Super CV, Rondo). It worked in 1985, maybe even in 1995.... but that was 20-30 years ago.

Now Metroidvanias did try to take it a few steps further by introducing certain elements to it. But this again falls into the above category with having the same issues. It just isn't the most profitable route for a company to take. You also have to keep in mind that this format is 17 years old already. I also feel that SOTN while one of my favorite games started several very BAD trends:

• Sprite Recycling: good god, they took sprites from Drac X, Castlevania Chronicles, and even some from SCV (with some minor touch ups). POR And OOE HEAVILY did the same, and DOS had some too. I won't even talk about Castlevania HD. And the worst part is in many cases, as time went on the qaulity of the AI and death animations for those same enemies just went downhill. LAZY TRENDS like this = lower sales
• Poor Balancing: just look at how easy it is to NEVER die in every metroidvania. Between all the healing moves, being able to buy/find tons of healing/MP items, having tons of super powered moves, and the overall LOW damage of enemies and low difficulty of the games, if you are using ALL of your options it is VERY hard to actually die in most of the metroidvanias. OOE ramped the difficulty up some, which I was happy about. But it was too little too late.
• Low Difficulty: I mentioned this in my point above. And I see the debate going on about it between two other members, but I want to add one thing. In reference to the extra modes like LV1 cap when I say I want difficulty, I mean I want BALANCED difficulty. Think of Contra III, the american version of CVIII, or even DMC1,3, and 4. These were all balanced, even on the HARDEST settings. The same cannot be said for a game where a medusa head hitting me takes 3/4 of life and can hit me twice killing me instantly (OOE) or where some enemy attacks = 1 hit KO'S (POR). That is hard due to being UNBALANCED, and again a lazy method of increasing difficulty. Remember lazy = lower sales.
• Cheap ways of extending game length: reverse castle (SOTN)? Mirror Castle (HOD)? Chaos realm(AOS)? Recolored cut and paste stages with a handful of new rooms (POR, OOE, And HD)? 8 bit stages on a ps3 games (HD)? NO! Just NO!!!! Putting in new enemies after making stages like this is cheap and lazy. Lazy = low sales.
• Making it about "da loot": Collecting 80 extra useless weapons, useless souls, useless furniture, or creating 5 versions of the same familiar with MINOR differences = lazy attempt at AGAIN extending GAME LENGTH! A video game should NEVER be about item collection; it should be about the action and gameplay. Item collection should be an extra FUN and REWARDING feature of  game. NOT the focus of it. Even games like diablo 2 and 3, which are KNOWN for loot collection made it a point to ensure that the biggest focus was on gameplay and storyline. Making a major focus just getting tons of useless junk = lazy. Lazy = low sales.

Notice how many times I said the same thing; lazy = low sales. This is to drill in this fact because as I said above, 2d platformers already aren't the most profitable genre in this day and age. And those are the 2 biggest issues: the laziness factor, and that 2d platformers aren't as popular as they once were.

With that being said, if Konami wanted to make a TRULY great CV they could do what I've been saying for YEARS should be done: create an HD OR 2.5D CV that is a fully 2d game (gameplay wise), has enough stages that it is several HOURS in length, with all unique stages, has multiple difficulties, multiple endings, and focuses on high speed gameplay and action (similar to the 2nd touhouvania game). With item collection being secondary to this and making sure that gamers couldn't utilize the nuances of the game to easily breeze thru it (like healing abuse or tons of overpowered moves). Multiple characters would be nice, but with them all having just enough unique and useful options, versus all the extra useful fluff. And with it all being balanced.

Sounds like a fantasy right? Well it isn't; dragon's crown alone is proof of this (and that game BTW was and still is QUOTE profitable and received several updates along with even FREE DLC). It's not impossible; but what such an endeavor would be is COSTLY!

.........yes, COSTLY! And There in lies the problem:  why would konami do this when this particular IP and its genre has NOT been particularly profitable for a long time? It would be like setting themselves up for a double loss. A good quality 2d castlevania is VERY doable; but the fact is Konami doesn't want to take the chance there. Because if their employees blow it FOR THE TENTH time in a row, they lose money.

So the obvious solution? Turn to 3d. Which they sadly have fallen short on. The sad fact is while LOI and HOD weren't BAD games overall (I won't even mention the n64 ones; utter trash), compared to the ones that set the standards (DMC and God of war for example) they are just not as much fun, and their story lines just aren't as creative. Couple this with repetitive stages where most rooms look EXACTLY the same and stiff uninspired movements (LOI; HOD improved a bit there), and you have the makings of a mediocre game. So what did they do next? Reinvented the IP; with Lords of shadow. THAT was a good game; excellent story beautiful scenery, great combat, and most importantly: it was FUN and exciting!

Was it castlevania as we know it? To most, No... but then again neither were any of the other 3d games really if you are originally from the 2d era (like I am). Was it a GOOD game? YES! No laziness involved at all; you could see the love they put into the game. Hence why it sold so well, and made Konami enough money that they kept going with the series. I have not played MOF; but the gfx honestly look like trash to me. And the gameplay looks pretty dull. When I saw the game released, I thought to myself "is this a beta? NO, holy shit that is the final product. Wow." But again, I have not played it I do not intend to comment further. I did beat LOS2 this past week, and while it is not a bad game, in short it just doesn't feel as high quality or most importantly FUN as LOS1. And the sales #'s back me up on this. For reasons that have already been stated COUNTLESS times, so I won't bother repeating them again and boring you all.

Also lets not forget DXC; FUN GAME! And on an emulator like ppsspp it looks GORGEOUS TOO! Sadly they didn't take the time to balance Maria, so she still feels overpowered and richter is still too stiff. The SOTN version included with it is basically the PSX one with an underwhelming and underpowered Maria included. All wasted opportunities there, but overall for what you get its a good buy and it was a step in the RIGHT direction.

So what's my point? Well in short, Konami needs to do away will all the repetitiveness and laziness we have seen in the past, and stop having wasted opportunities left and right. They need to stop trying to turn CV into 3d, and focus on doing 2d THE RIGHT WAY: with a team that will make an all new HD game with as much effort and as much of a budget as was given to the team who made LOS. They will have to focus on making it more expansive, and adding in rpg elements and a scoring system that will give the game more replay value.

Will it happen? Probably not. For the reasons I stated above several times. At least not with the current management at Konami. Its going to take someone coming along that is as obsessed with making his/her dream come true as the maker of dragon's crown was, who also happens to have the capital to invest. Sadly people like that are one in a million.

But I'm hoping for that person to pop up... I truly am. It would make my century!

Angry post full of expletives

Wow, you really sound like you have some issues Flame. But that aside,I don't honestly care what the maker of the game acts like; I care what he creates. Though given the option of picking a nice person who puts out trash, or an absolute idiot who makes a game that blows my socks off, I would take the LATTER over the FORMER any day. But that is just me. 

EDIT: sorry fixed some typos

[zangetsu468]

• Poor Balancing: just look at how easy it is to NEVER die in every metroidvania. Between all the healing moves, being able to buy/find tons of healing/MP items, having tons of super powered moves, and the overall LOW damage of enemies and low difficulty of the games, if you are using ALL of your options it is VERY hard to actually die in most of the metroidvanias. OOE ramped the difficulty up some, which I was happy about. But it was too little too late.

LOS was an easy game, MOF was an easy game. I will say that fighting TF1 on hard or higher in LOS was difficult, that's about it.
I put it to anybody that COTM for example is difficult to never die, particularly upon first playthrough.
OOE remedied these issues, yes and consuming potions didn't rejuvenate the hero as much as previous handhelds.

• Low Difficulty: I mentioned this in my point above. And I see the debate going on about it between two other members, but I want to add one thing. In reference to the extra modes like LV1 cap when I say I want difficulty, I mean I want BALANCED difficulty. Think of Contra III, the american version of CVIII, or even DMC1,3, and 4. These were all balanced, even on the HARDEST settings. The same cannot be said for a game where a medusa head hitting me takes 3/4 of life and can hit me twice killing me instantly (OOE) or where some enemy attacks = 1 hit KO'S (POR). That is hard due to being UNBALANCED, and again a lazy method of increasing difficulty.

I don't see how it's unbalanced, firstly, it's still very easy to kill larger enemies and bosses if you bother to master the glyph system - which is the backbone of the combat within the gameplay. Secondly, it's enemy placement and platforming, jumping/ avoid enemies, using magnus to propel Shanoa out of harms way, while being able to platform. There is a lot of this in OOE. Take the monastery (first area) where the scales in the background can actually be jumped on by Shanoa's sprite, things such as this were included so that on the most difficult playthrough, there was an easier option for traversal rather than fighting every zombie. That's one instance, and it's not cheap when the game is not like that by default, nearly every CV game offers higher difficulty or another playable character upon completion, this is a trend the series set long ago. If you bothered to play them through, you will also notice on POR/ OOE's highest difficulties, you actually have to play the game differently. i.e. in POR you can't be careless walking around with 2 characters because when enemies hit the second player you lose MP which is crucial to surviving, in OOE you can beat bosses easily but you really need that glyph that you have to obtain (which could be elemental etc) as well as using your MP wisely and maximising combos. Where as on a normal playthrough you don't need to do that. There is a lot of movement involved in fighting bosses in OOE on this mode; Goliath, Blackmoore and Eligor spring to mind. (For POR I'd say Dulahan, the creature, Drac/Death.)

• Cheap ways of extending game length: reverse castle (SOTN)? Mirror Castle (HOD)? Chaos realm(AOS)? Recolored cut and paste stages with a handful of new rooms (POR, OOE, And HD)? 8 bit stages on a ps3 games (HD)? NO! Just NO!!!! Putting in new enemies after making stages like this is cheap and lazy.

You can argue this for the handheld games, however, specifically regarding SOTN, the way in which the second castle was used can not be labelled cheap. Having an inverted castle which had different enemies, a different soundtrack, a higher difficulty, different bosses and including multiple endings which may not have involved said castle was not lazy. For a strictly 2d platformer this was a 1 off move which blew fans away in context.
The handhelds were made on a budget, which you can argue cheapens the games, however, those handhelds kept the series alive for hardcore fans when the 3d CV's were failing and they had a lot of other good qualities in their gameplay, narrative, ost's etc.. And they are all still better than MOF which took 3 years to be released and did absolutely nothing to enrich the series (original or LOS).

• Making it about "da loot": Collecting 80 extra useless weapons, useless souls, useless furniture, or creating 5 versions of the same familiar with MINOR differences = lazy attempt at AGAIN extending GAME LENGTH! A video game should NEVER be about item collection; it should be about the action and gameplay. Item collection should be an extra FUN and REWARDING feature of  game. NOT the focus of it. Even games like diablo 2 and 3, which are KNOWN for loot collection made it a point to ensure that the biggest focus was on gameplay and storyline. Making a major focus just getting tons of useless junk = lazy.

Which AOS, POR and OOE remedied imo.

Sounds like a fantasy right? Well it isn't; dragon's crown alone is proof of this (and that game BTW was and still is QUOTE profitable and received several updates along with even FREE DLC). It's not impossible; but what such an endeavor would be is COSTLY!

Dragon's Crown is a sack of crap. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but the game is just not very enjoyable imo. A lot of it is to do with the momentum of the game being broken far too often, you play for 1 hour and you might actually be in combat for 30 mins - other half of the time is spent reading text. (and this is after playing Muramasa which I really enjoy)

So the obvious solution? Turn to 3d. Which they sadly have fallen short on. The sad fact is while LOI and HOD weren't BAD games overall (I won't even mention the n64 ones; utter trash)

That's interesting that the utter trash you speak of is still arguably the closest of an actual transition from 2d>3d castlevania. I'm not going to argue that the controls or camera were the best (some of which was fixed in LOD) however, those games included many elements of classicvania which was omitted from LOI and COD. LOD is the only game that got the clocktower right, LOS even failed at that. [/list][/list][/list][/list][/list]

[the_truth]

LOS was an easy game, MOF was an easy game. I will say that fighting TF1 on hard or higher in LOS was difficult, that's about it.
I put it to anybody that COTM for example is difficult to never die, particularly upon first playthrough.
OOE remedied these issues, yes and consuming potions didn't rejuvenate the hero as much as previous handhelds.

No argument there about LOS (can't comment on MOF for the reason I stated above.) COTM was actually very challenging but ONLY until you learned to use the card right. Then it also becomes a joke sadly. OOE did fix it quite a bit, but only because I refused to use healing items. Otherwise it was also very easy to get thru sadly on normal. As for hard mode, see my post above.

You can argue this for the handheld games, however, specifically regarding SOTN, the way in which the second castle was used can not be labelled cheap. Having an inverted castle which had different enemies, a different soundtrack, a higher difficulty, different bosses and including multiple endings which may not have involved said castle was not lazy. For a strictly 2d platformer this was a 1 off move which blew fans away in context.

By definition, taking the first castle, flipping it and re-shading it DEFINITELY saved the company on costs, and definitely was not as intriguing as having an ALL new castle would have been. That is what makes it by definition a cheap substitute; it is a cost and time saving measure that lowers quality, versus the alternative. Can you honestly say you wouldn't have been more wow'ed by all new stages?

Also, 2 of the tracks were used for MOST of the castle. And I never said anything about the new bosses, enemies or multiple endings being bad. I actually stated the opposite.

The handhelds were made on a budget, which you can argue cheapens the games, however, those handhelds kept the series alive for hardcore fans when the 3d CV's were failing and they had a lot of other good qualities in their gameplay, narrative, ost's etc.. And they are all still better than MOF which took 3 years to be released and did absolutely nothing to enrich the series (original or LOS).

Redundant; ALL games are made on a budget. And while I will agree that something IS better than nothing in this case this does NOT invalidate my points above. Also, I never said they didn't have ANY good qualities.

Which AOS, POR and OOE remedied imo.

We will agree to disagree here.

Dragon's Crown is a sack of crap. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but the game is just not very enjoyable imo. A lot of it is to do with the momentum of the game being broken far too often, you play for 1 hour and you might actually be in combat for 30 mins - other half of the time is spent reading text. (and this is after playing Muramasa which I really enjoy)

Ditto here. Even objectively speaking if I HATED this genre I would have to give them credit for their excellent work, and the #'s seem to back me up here too. But to each his own.

That's interesting that the utter trash you speak of is still arguably the closest of an actual transition from 2d>3d castlevania. I'm not going to argue that the controls or camera were the best (some of which was fixed in LOD) however, those games included many elements of classicvania which was omitted from LOI and COD. LOD is the only game that got the clocktower right, LOS even failed at that.

I still don't feel anyone has gotten it juuuuuuuuuuuuuust right yet.

[X]

That's interesting that the utter trash you speak of is still arguably the closest of an actual transition from 2d>3d castlevania. I'm not going to argue that the controls or camera were the best (some of which was fixed in LOD) however, those games included many elements of classicvania which was omitted from LOI and COD. LOD is the only game that got the clocktower right, LOS even failed at that.

Ditto. CV64/LoD was the closet for us in terms of a proper 3D CV transition. I never realized this till later on as it took the two 3D IGA games to make me see that. Even more now with the LoS mess. Even if the camera is bad, has spotty controls, dated graphics, etc. The game is far more CV then all the other 3D ones. The atmosphere is spot-on and the soundtrack adds to the environments they represent perfectly. Playing the game actually made me feel like I was there which is something that both the IGA games and MS games failed to do. And yes CV64/LoD got the clocktower right the first time.

[zangetsu468]

No argument there about LOS (can't comment on MOF for the reason I stated above.) COTM was actually very challenging but ONLY until you learned to use the card right. Then it also becomes a joke sadly. OOE did fix it quite a bit, but only because I refused to use healing items. Otherwise it was also very easy to get thru sadly on normal. As for hard mode, see my post above.

Re: COTM, I must have really got a bum playthrough, because although I learned to maximise my DSS cards, many of the ones I picked up just wouldn't combine or seemed very weak even compared to regular attacks. I still beat the game and finished the coliseum, which was very rewarding.
 
At least OOE (and I believe POR) on the hardest settings gave nearly no X potions, so you either had to know the game back to front etc.
I generally refrain from using use items when I play CV games, because I like keeping at least 1 of every item, also you can't rely on use items when you're playing with momentum on a very difficult setting. (X potions are my ultimate no-no)

By definition, taking the first castle, flipping it and re-shading it DEFINITELY saved the company on costs, and definitely was not as intriguing as having an ALL new castle would have been. That is what makes it by definition a cheap substitute; it is a cost and time saving measure that lowers quality, versus the alternative. Can you honestly say you wouldn't have been more wow'ed by all new stages?

You know, I can't say that in honesty, however, I wondered why in some areas it looked as if there were steps on the ceiling or things could look a certain way upside down etc and I did think it was really cool that they designed the overlooked details to suit. I still thought it was innovative, and I guess I personally loved the castle so much at the time that I looked forward to playing through again.

Also, 2 of the tracks were used for MOST of the castle. And I never said anything about the new bosses, enemies or multiple endings being bad. I actually stated the opposite.

For most, but those tracks and the rest were beautiful, like the inverse Chapel. Of course more could have been done, as always.

Redundant; ALL games are made on a budget. And while I will agree that something IS better than nothing in this case this does NOT invalidate my points above. Also, I never said they didn't have ANY good qualities.

Actually I will say that sometimes nothing is better than something (erm... MOF..)
I'm not invalidating your points, I suppose I can see why people don't appreciate reused sprites etc. (Even though CV is not the only franchise to do this by a long shot) Honestly, I never really minded them. Call me biased, because I am, particularly when it comes to 2d sprite based games. I just don't mind things being re-used.. Must've been all those years of playing MVC2 ;P

I still don't feel anyone has gotten it juuuuuuuuuuuuuust right yet.

It's my view that LOD is by far the front runner, LOS was just a joke difficulty-wise, although it looked well composed.

Ditto. CV64/LoD was the closet for us in terms of a proper 3D CV transition. I never realized this till later on as it took the two 3D IGA games to make me see that. Even more now with the LoS mess. Even if the camera is bad, has spotty controls, dated graphics, etc. The game is far more CV then all the other 3D ones. The atmosphere is spot-on and the soundtrack adds to the environments they represent perfectly. Playing the game actually made me feel like I was there which is something that both the IGA games and MS games failed to do.

LOI and COD both had suitable OST's, LOI moreso, LOI; House of Sacred Remains and Fog-enshrouded Nightscape ftw..

64/LOD though.. The Castle Keep right before Dracula, that music had me hype and nervous as a 14 year old. Particularly the first time you stumble upon the invisible platforms

CV64/LoD got the clocktower right the first time.

LOD's was different though if I recall, it was longer and there was a larger room at the end where Cornell would emerge from the hands on the Clock itself. I thought that was awesome.

[Belmontoya]

You can argue this for the handheld games, however, specifically regarding SOTN, the way in which the second castle was used can not be labelled cheap. Having an inverted castle which had different enemies, a different soundtrack, a higher difficulty, different bosses and including multiple endings which may not have involved said castle was not lazy. For a strictly 2d platformer this was a 1 off move which blew fans away in context.
The handhelds were made on a budget, which you can argue cheapens the games, however, those handhelds kept the series alive for hardcore fans when the 3d CV's were failing and they had a lot of other good qualities in their gameplay, narrative, ost's etc.. And they are all still better than MOF which took 3 years to be released and did absolutely nothing to enrich the series (original or LOS).

Dragon's Crown is a sack of crap. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but the game is just not very enjoyable imo. A lot of it is to do with the momentum of the game being broken far too often, you play for 1 hour and you might actually be in combat for 30 mins - other half of the time is spent reading text. (and this is after playing Muramasa which I really enjoy)

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The castle flip in SOTN was a cheesy gimmick. I don't care how you want to sugar coat it. I was never impressed by that. It would have been nice to have the second half of the game offer some new scenery.

The handhelds kept the series alive for hardcore fans? Do you speak for all of the hardcore fans? I've been a fan of the series for well over two decades and I found the gameboy advance and ds handheld games to be some of the most uninteresting Castlevania games ever made. For many people, they are what was killing the series with their redundancy.

I agree that Muramasa is funner game than Dragon's Crown, but to say Dragon's Crown is a sack of crap!? Come on man.