Topic: Vampire Killer, a creature of chaos?

[Morning star]

This takes me back to playing Alundra. Underneath the church floor was a statue of Melzas (the Demon King) good times.... :p

I had never played this one before so you forced me to google it. Developed by matrix software?  Interesting I also took the time to read the storyline. That is also, VERY interesting. Guy on the cover looks like a cross between Simon Belmont from captain n and Link from the legend of Zelda, lol.

For some reason this thread reminded me of the difference between Castlevania and haunted Castle. In the games intro the first thing Dracula does is blow up the cross on top of the church. The final boss fight is against Dracula, but he shows up as an angel before he shows who he really is.. Also worth mentioning.. The cross sub-weapon in this game is really a cross. As for the main weapon? Sword, whip, chain flail with a spiked mace ball on the end. No mention of a vampire killer that i can see. But the theme clearly depicts the struggle between good and evil. This can be easily seen with the discovery of holy symbols in the hands of the hero and the angel Satan who reveals himself as Dracula. I have seen emulated versions that did away with this and just introduce Dracula.

Also worth mentioning is how screwed up the Wikipedia entry is for this game. It introduces haunted Castle, but quickly directs you to the story and development of Castlevania nes. Very strange.

[K.K. Drunkinski]

Unless you're referring to a version of Haunted Castle I've never seen, Dracula doesn't appear as an angel. It's one of the Harpies from stage 3:

[Morning star]

Unless you're referring to a version of Haunted Castle I've never seen, Dracula doesn't appear as an angel. It's one of the Harpies from stage 3:

From a technical point of view, you are correct. However im afraid that there is some symbolism here that may be lost on you. The use of a man with long hair and wings was not an accident. The entire classical story of Dracula is centered around a very religious man that fought in gods name and was in very high standing. (Just like another figure) That man turned on god and vowed to forever curse his name and rebel against him by defying death itself. Among other activities.. Sounds like the story of somebody else, does it not?

Thats satan, not a harpie I guess next you will say that's not the symbol of Wicca.  Triquetra

[K.K. Drunkinski]

If Konami wanted to imply such a theme, they could have simply created an angelic sprite distinct from the Harpy. CV draws heavily on ancient vampire folklore, and that Harpy is the classic image of a vampiric entity. It is not a male with long hair, it is a female vampiric spirit with wings and the feet of a bird. That image is far older than any biblical conception of what the Devil looked like, regardless of the fact that ancient ideas of what evil spirits looked like were eventually absorbed into Christianity as it spread through Europe.

[Morning star]

Your missing the point. Let me start with all the ways your correct.

Yes, the harpie is an ancient mythical creature. Yes, it's a female monster. Yes, it's older than Christianity. And yes, Christianity did absorb massive amounts of pagan dates, symbolism, etc and so on. Even the symbol of the sun was adopted into the religion even though it represents pagan sun worship.

Here are the things i think your overlooking.

The original OLD versions of Castlevania were based on the classic story of Dracula. The story of Dracula is ALL ABOUT Christianity and the battle between satan and God. Watch Bram stokers Dracula dude. Why would they make a new sprite to represent an angel, when what they are trying to depict is already so similar to what they wanted? Answer: They wouldn't. They just figured people would know the story of Dracula after like 100 years of books and movies and understand the concept. This is the kind of thing they did in almost all games back in those days. The reuse of sprites where they could was very common.

Here is your question pointed back at you. If they were going to pick a random monster to use to represent Dracula as he enters the boss fight, why would they not have picked a bat? Answer: Because the symbolism they were going for was a lot stronger than that.

[zangetsu468]

You both make valid points imo. What I will say is that I don't believe anything is accidental in this world. Inevitably symbols themselves will mean different things for different people.
Imo, the harpy was picked because they wanted a creature that could fly so the gamer wouldn't know they were fighting Dracula until he materialised. However, In context a bat would be more appropriate..
This is where I believe Morning star has a valid point, because I've played Haunted Castle, at the start of the game Dracula kidnaps the protagonist's bride. Hence, there's no element of surprise anymore, the gamer already knows who they're going to fight. If anything this just informs me that the creators did their research, I don't believe the harpy was chosen by chance. I'd be more inclined to believe they reused the harpy sprite (in this scenario) because they were too cheap to create another sprite. (Lucifer is said to have been beautiful, androgynous even. So maybe boobs aren't going that astray) It's the same reason why in the original SFII, both Ryu and Ken's sprites are in essence the same, everything is about cost.

Morning Star, speaking of context one thing I will say is when it come to Bram Stoker's Dracula, never watch the film, always read the book. The film is more a love story, and although good for its time I don't believe personally that it's a great adaptation of the classic.

[K.K. Drunkinski]

I'm not implying that the original story of Dracula, as written by Bram Stoker, was not about good vs. evil, devil vs. god. It certainly was. I was just saying that's not an angel in that game, but you can read it that way if you want. Also, the 1992 movie "Bram Stoker's Dracula" may have been pretty close to the book, but, the 1992 movie invented its own explanation of why Dracula turned into a vampire, and has been copied since. The whole, deeply religious man, but fallen, then curses God thing. The novel never explains how or why he became a vampire. The thing is, Haunted Castle came out before the 1992 film. You're trying to read a message about Dracula that was invented in 1992 back into a video game made in the late 1980s, as if the makers had somehow seen that film.

[Ratty]

Quit derailing the topic guys. If you want to swap conspiracy theories make your own thread, don't hijack others.

[K.K. Drunkinski]

Alright, fair enough. The topic did get derailed. But I wasn't promoting secret meanings or conspiracy theories. I was trying to say the opposite, that it's a game based on horror motifs, and not to read too deep into it.

[Ratty]

Alright, fair enough. The topic did get derailed. But I wasn't promoting secret meanings or conspiracy theories. I was trying to say the opposite, that it's a game based on horror motifs, and not to read too deep into it.

Yeah just don't want to have to lock another topic for serious derailment like last time. I will clarify one of your points though just because I really like quoting this one passage in Dracula about his origin.

The novel never explains how or why he became a vampire. The thing is, Haunted Castle came out before the 1992 film. You're trying to read a message about Dracula that was invented in 1992 back into a video game made in the late 1980s, as if the makers had somehow seen that film.

It doesn't explain but it does hint.

"I have asked my friend Arminius, of Buda-Pesth University, to make his record; and, from all the means that are, he tell me of what he has been. He must, indeed, have been that Voivode Dracula who won his name against the Turk, over the great river on the very frontier of Turkey-land. If it be so, then was he no common man; for in that time, and for centuries after, he was spoken of as the cleverest and the most cunning, as well as the bravest of the sons of the ‘land beyond the forest.’ That mighty brain and that iron resolution went with him to his grave, and are even now arrayed against us. The Draculas were, says Arminius, a great and noble race, though now and again were scions who were held by their coevals to have had dealings with the Evil One. They learned his secrets in the Scholomance, amongst the mountains over Lake Hermanstadt, where the devil claims the tenth scholar as his due. In the records are such words as ‘stregoica’—witch, ‘ordog,’ and ‘pokol’—Satan and hell; and in one manuscript this very Dracula is spoken of as ‘wampyr,’ which we all understand too well. There have been from the loins of this very one great men and good women, and their graves make sacred the earth where alone this foulness can dwell. For it is not the least of its terrors that this evil thing is rooted deep in all good; in soil barren of holy memories it cannot rest.” ( http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/345 )

Dracula apparently became a vampire by studying at the Scholomance, either voluntarily or because he wound up being a 10th student and thus claimed by the devil.

[K.K. Drunkinski]

I had forgotten about the explicit mention of Drac being into Black Magic in the novel. And in medieval times, that sure was a practice that made you a likely candidate for a vampire. Looking at it like that, that hint in the novel could have very well been an inspiration for the reason Drac is a vampire found in "Legends" and "Dracula's Curse."

[Asgardwolf]

I think all the different upgrades to the whip of alchemy in LoI were to explain it's ability to shift forms, and some of the more extreme forms like we saw in CotM aren't really canon to the same timeline. Though they could probably be just as easily explained away as the whip growing and changing in power over time.

Also the reason that it was harmful to John Morris and Jonathan as I understand is that they're not full Belmonts. Perhaps Sara's soul protects Leon's direct descendants from the ill effects of the whip (brought on largely by her own vampiric taint?) but at a certain point Leon's bloodline is too thin for this to work really effectively. I expect this is something that would have been explored more fully if we had gotten a proper Julius Belmont game.

If you think about it, just the Alchemy Whip upgrades into the Vampire Killer, the elemental Whips are more like different whips you find during your quest.

[Ratty]

If you think about it, just the Alchemy Whip upgrades into the Vampire Killer, the elemental Whips are more like different whips you find during your quest.

Oh yeah that's true (I really need to replay LoI, I've only beaten it once but it's a lot of fun once you're past the House of Sacred Remains) but I wonder if that was due to a quirk of translation or a last minute change in development? It seems like a logical combining of game mechanics with lore building to have the whip infused with ice power from an ice elemental etc.

[darkwzrd4]

If I remember correctly, if you read the descriptions of the three elemental whips in LoI, they say: "fire/ice/lightning element added to the Whip of Alchemy." So, the there is really only one whip in LoI. It's just that the whip is equipped with the three elementals and that the VK is just an upgrade of the basic Whip of Alchemy.

[Morning star]

That's the way i remember it as well.