Topic: Two Smash Bros questions...

[theANdROId]

So, with the upcoming release of Smash Bros, I've chatted with a number of friends about the game lately, and had a few questions for y'all!

-- How do you play?  As any character you wish, or perhaps only one?  Do you use items, or not at all?  Do you limit what attacks you can use?  Do you play any stage?
I know lots of people really get into playing some sort of "tournament" style in this series.  When Melee was new, I had some friends who had some seriously strict rules that drove me crazy!  They insisted that everyone pick only ONE character to ever use, and nobody else could use that character.  Also, there were no items, only regular "A" button attacks (never ever push "B"), never use a move more than twice in a row, and only play on Battlefield or Final Destination.  I'd much rather just play the game and enjoy it...though I do usually end up with a few favorite characters.  How do you play?



-- What do you think of the new game's roster?
Another friend recently admitted being disappointed in the new game's roster, particularly because he liked it better when the characters were Nintendo only.  I questioned this, because I knew not all of the original Smash Bros. characters belonged to Nintendo, but I think what my friend meant was he wishes the game ONLY supported characters that have ONLY appeared on Nintendo's consoles.  I don't generally prefer to argue, so I decided not to point out that (I think) his philosophy still doesn't even apply to the original game...but it made me wonder what others think?

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

1.  I'm 80% "For Fun" and only 20% "For Assholes" (For Glory).  So, most of the time, I play all of the stages, all of the items, complete mayhem, and play to have a good time.  I don't play to win, but I play well enough to win a few matches.  Since the chaotic mayhem of all items and all stages is on, I don't feel in any particular way about losing.
I occasionally play competitively, but I get so bored with no items, the same 'top tier' characters being picked, always on a flat battleground (Final Destination or Battlefield).  It is my philosophy that the player should master the stages he or she is given and use the stage hazards and items to one's advantage.  Tournament rules are boring bullshit.

As for what character? I usually play as Marth, Game&Watch, or Ness.  SSB is one of those rare games in which I have fun playing with all of the characters, even if I have a few favorites.

I was hoping they'd have "Belmont" and "Captain N" in the latest game, so that I can have a complete 80's Captain N roster.

2. The roster is fine.  I am mildly disappointed about the lost characters, but there's always hope for DLC.  I miss Mewtwo and Roy (but they're in Project M), but I won't be missing Pokemon Trainer (since I think it was smart that they separated the Pokemon).  I miss Wolf, Lucas, Snake, and the IceClimbers but I hear they may become DLC later on.

[uzo]

Don't feel bad if you can't play with the skilled players Jorge. Not everyone can win with skill, sometimes you need items and stage gimmicks to do it for you and make you feel good, because everyone is a winner... 

Of course I won't wade around the kiddy pool very often. Bob-omb battles can be fun sometimes but items really are just like watching some random crap play out on screen, and of course that gets old quick. How can you feel good about simply getting the lucky item by chance? The only way to make that interesting is by adding a gambling component (or drinking game?).

For me there is nothing else like getting in there and being all on my own, just me and my skill, with the mind games, the strategies, and the reflexes required to bring home a true victory. A fight where my own skill and worth determine the win or lose. Screw tiers and other noob shit like that. If you can't win with the character of your own choosing then you're just not good enough. No items, limit stages perhaps, but no character or move restrictions.

[GuyStarwind]

1. I play as characters I like. I'm a big Fire Emblem fan so I use Fire Emblem characters. I really like MGS so I use Solid Snake. I've always liked Luigi since I was a kid so... I use him. You get the point. My friends and I normally play 5 stock with items on medium. I'm not much of a one on one with no items type guy.

2. The roster has some ups and downs for. Allow me to express my opinions on it.
The Good
- 4 Fire Emblem reps. Hell yeah!
- Several of my wanted characters like Megaman, Mii's, whoever else
- Larger roster
The Bad
- No Solid Snake. I kinda had a feeling this would happen but it makes me sad because I mained him in Brawl. I even read an article saying Kojima wanted him to return. Honestly I'm really hoping dlc happens and him with it.
- All the other cut characters. However, I'll talk about Ice Climbers in the next section (Even Pokemon Trainer. I see why he's gone I just thought he was a cool idea)
- Ganondorf is still a clone I hear.
- No Isaac or from what I hear any Golden Sun stuff.
- Lucina I guess is the clonest of clones I knew she would be but I was hoping for more I guess. I'll just have to wait and see.
The Ugly
- Too many Kid Icarus characters. Two are fine but Dark Pit is pushing it. The series has three games. IMO it doesn't need three reps. Just because Uprising was his game doesn't mean a Pit clone should be in the roster.
- No Ice Climbers. I hear this was due to issues with the 3DS hardware but it still makes me sad.
- Doctor Mario. Look I have no problems with the doctor or even Dark Pit but alts of Mario and Pit would've been fine. Hell not to sound bias have Lucina just be an alt of Marth too. Yes I'm aware there are differences but it just rubs me the wrong way. I hear Doc Mario plays more like Melee Mario but I don't think he should've returned.

I give the roster 7/10 it has some cool new additions but some I personally and repeat personally don't care for. I am really hoping for dlc to happen.

[Abnormal Freak]

No items games gets rid of the fun of chucking an item (any item) at somebody you've nearly knocked off the screen who's trying to make their way back. You can't say a precise item throw doesn't require skill.

The chaos of items is also just super fun.

[uzo]

Why bother? Just camp the Pokemon at the ledge, watch them fail coming back. Stand inside the Pokemon too for added bullshit. POKEMON SHIELD.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Don't feel bad if you can't play with the skilled players Jorge. Not everyone can win with skill, sometimes you need items and stage gimmicks to do it for you and make you feel good, because everyone is a winner... 

I can't play?  You missed the part about where I said I'd be in there most likely 20% of the time.  I may jump into that stenchy mode with the tourneylameguyz from time to time.  If you're being facetious, you should throw a few more 's in there, though.

Eh, what can I tell ya, I like mayhem.  If I cared about 'skilled play' I wouldn't play Mario Kart games either, but I love them precisely because of their chaotic nature (and I don't play to win, though I do quite often).  Part of the games' design is to force you to deal with nonsensical crap thrown at you (sometimes literally thrown at you).  I'm an Agent of Chaos.

Perhaps there's also a tiny bit of me that relishes watching people who take it too seriously get enraged needlessly.

I do believe we've faced each other before in games where 'skilled play' is in effect.  I recall faring rather well. Arooo.

Hey, at least they made a mode just for the snowflakes who have to play on a flat stage with all the fun stuff taken right out.  I always take the time to congratulate those people on being Special enough to get a mode just for them.  Truly, Sakurai is a generous man.

Back on Topic, one of the nice things about this game is that it can be tailored to all sorts of players.  Adding accessibility and opening up the fanbase is not at all a bad thing.  I got to spot the game stream a few days back, and like in the previous game, they've really done well with all the item/stage/etc. toggles.  The rules set up is even friendlier now.  One thing that kinda bugs me in the 3DS version is that there appear to be only 2 music tracks per stage, but if you play the stage in other modes, other music tracks are available.  I wonder why they didn't just make all tracks available for the stages.  Locking it down to two per normal mode, but adding more for the other modes seems a bit odd and limiting.

[uzo]

Haha, yeah I know. I'm not good at Smash.

And you're right, I really love how Sakurai made For Glory. He woke up to the tournament scene, and really made a game for both crowds, or at least tried to. The jury is still out whether or not the gameplay and balance itself holds up though in that kind of environment.

Interestingly they do seem to be enacting some cool online policies though. If you rage quit a match they force you into a 10 minute time out for online modes, which is awesome. I'm surprised no one else has thought of this and done it yet.

[theANdROId]

No items games gets rid of the fun of chucking an item (any item) at somebody you've nearly knocked off the screen who's trying to make their way back. You can't say a precise item throw doesn't require skill.

The chaos of items is also just super fun.

That's exactly why I like items!  Screw actually using the thing as it was designed to be...I'd rather just throw it at you!  On the original Smash Bros., knowing things like the fact that the Paper Fan propelled a target upwards and a Star Rod propelled a target downwards, made them more fun to use!  It was so satisfying to KO off the top/bottom by chucking one of those two items at them!


I definitely favor the chaos though.  It's more fun when there's more to dodge than "A" attacks on a flat stage, and honestly, I personally feel better about a win when I can make it through ANYthing you have to dish out.  I don't think there's any attack or item that's a guaranteed hit and KO if you know how to maneuver.  Even if there is, that's one KO...practice to be good enough to put numbers on the board so that one doesn't matter!  I don't think any tactic is truly "cheap" either.  Annoying sometimes, like spamming Fox's laser (from across the map) on a group that's in melee.  But it doesn't do that much damage, and again, play well enough to overcome that.

But don't get me wrong, I don't hate tournament style.  I can and will play that way too, and Glory Mode sounds pretty neat.  It does get a little stale though after a few rounds...particularly when it was supposed to be as strict as I mentioned in my first post.  I mean really...don't be calling "foul" just because I used the same kick 3 times in a row!  The goal is to beat you, not look pretty! 


One mode I particularly enjoyed was something we called Bumper Mode.  It only works on the original Smash, since they later added the flipper.  Turn damage up to as high as it will go (I think it was 300%), and the ONLY item is bumpers, and set it so there are TONS of them!  Also, play on timed mode so you don't run out of lives!  I'm really not sure why it was so hilarious, but once I convinced my friends to try this we were all rolling on the floor!  Nearly anything will OHKO you, but to use the bumpers and watch everyone bounce around like pinballs was awesome!

[zangetsu468]

-- How do you play?  As any character you wish, or perhaps only one?  Do you use items, or not at all?  Do you limit what attacks you can use?  Do you play any stage?

I generally don't play heaps of Smash, only 3 brothers who live together play it, within my circle of friends.
I usually use a handful of characters who are all quite different e.g. Samus and Kirby, but I do venture way out and pick people I'd never use. Recently I found out I was decent with Peach (I did NOT see that coming!)
Items are always manic and stage select is always random, We only ever play 4 player and have no intention of tournament style play.

-- What do you think of the new game's roster?

Ehh looks okay. I'm not disappointed but not overly thrilled. I'm interested in trying Palutena and Mac. I'm also hoping that Megaman will be a pleasant surprise.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Haha, yeah I know. I'm not good at Smash.

Maybe with the For Glory mode, you may grow to like it a bit?  You can try out the Demo next week.

And you're right, I really love how Sakurai made For Glory. He woke up to the tournament scene, and really made a game for both crowds, or at least tried to. The jury is still out whether or not the gameplay and balance itself holds up though in that kind of environment.

I may tease the TourneyLames, but honestly, it's a great step forward.

Interestingly they do seem to be enacting some cool online policies though. If you rage quit a match they force you into a 10 minute time out for online modes, which is awesome. I'm surprised no one else has thought of this and done it yet.

Haha, RageQuit penalties!  I heard about that but haven't looked into it enough.  This is good. But how can one differentiate between RageQuit and Bad Connection?  I hope they fix the lag issue that plagued the Wii version.

[uzo]

I already have the demo. I like it, I'm just not great at it. I'm much better at traditional fighting games.

[Shiroi Koumori]

Haha, RageQuit penalties!  I heard about that but haven't looked into it enough.  This is good. But how can one differentiate between RageQuit and Bad Connection?  I hope they fix the lag issue that plagued the Wii version.

There's no difference!... 

[Dracula9]

Running the risk of being labelled as "that guy," I've always stuck to Meta Knight since Brawl first came out.


I have a strange tendency to invariably choose the supposed Tier 0 characters without even meaning to in just about any tier-list fighter.

For me there is nothing else like getting in there and being all on my own, just me and my skill, with the mind games, the strategies, and the reflexes required to bring home a true victory. A fight where my own skill and worth determine the win or lose. Screw tiers and other noob shit like that. If you can't win with the character of your own choosing then you're just not good enough. No items, limit stages perhaps, but no character or move restrictions.

That's normally how I find my best character, but a fair amount of the time it's a character everyone bitches about, which leads me to look up tier lists out of curiousity, and there's my guy right up top. Happened in MVC3 too, when I immediately chose to run Vergil in every trio. I don't really stick to tier lists since most are full of shit, but the rare few that actually calculate the skill-driven technicalities always catch my interest. Of course, if you're good enough, anybody can be a top-tier fighter. Hell, I've seen guys who can use Ganondorf pretty effectively (still in Brawl context, btw).

But due to MK's insanely fast attack animations, low hitbox, flight and dodge agility, and almost-guaranteed-KO Final Smash, he's a natural pick for me, since I almost always stick to fast characters in fighters. But everybody plays him for spam value, which pisses me off since I had to take to time to learn how to run him without resorting to move spamming. Which then leads to getting bitched at whenever I pick him. grumblegrumble

Aside from MK, Link and Ike have always been solid picks. As for how I play, I don't mind items that are actually useful and add some flavor to the fight (i.e. Bob-ombs or the bouncer things), nor do I mind stage gimmicks, but I typically prefer to just narrow down items to just the FS Ball or nothing at all (usually the latter) and go right to Final Destination. As uzo said, I like knowing that my own inherent skill is the only thing determining whether I win or lose. The DK Hammers are fun and all, but they wear out their charm after a 30-stock fight with three other people abusing them every time they spawn.

As for the roster, I'm pretty happy with it. MK's still in, so I still have my go-to, but there are definitely some new choices made that I can't wait to experiment with; Villager I've heard is a little bastard and can cancel out an FS, among other things; DHD ought to have an interesting moveset; and of course I'm gonna be running my boy Mega Man. If I can kick some serious ass with him in MVC, then this should be an easy transition.

[theANdROId]

I don't know anything about the tiers...never heard of it.  However, I have heard people complain about characters as you mention.  Although...I feel like I can recall people complaining no matter who I picked, because there was always some reason they were "cheap"

With each of the games, I've added to my favorites by picking characters people initially complained about how terrible they were.  For instance, when Smash first came out, everyone I knew hated Ness because they had no idea who he was, he moved slow, his jump was slow, and his 3rd jump was hard to do.  I decided that I was gonna be good at Ness, because everyone said it was so hard and didn't wanna use him.  They also hated Jigglypuff, so I learned to play as her.  In Melee, my friends complained that although the Zelda/Sheik idea was cool, her moves sucked -- so I decided to learn to play as her.  In Brawl, they complained that Pit was a stupid character to add and his moves sucked, so I decided to play as him.  I don't know how any of these characters stack up on the tiers...I guess I chose them to be difficult...or the "underdog" (according to my circle of friends).

With the new title, I haven't really heard complaints.  I'm liking some of the "retro" characters thrown in.  I'll definitely want to still play as Ness, Jigglypuff, and Pit, and think I'll want to be good with Mega Man, Pac Man, and DHD too (one friend has complained that Pac Man doesn't belong in this game, and DHD was a stupid pick...hence part of my desire to play as them now).  Otherwise, I'm sure I'll play around with all of them.