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Offline Crying Freeman

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Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« on: September 07, 2015, 04:51:32 PM »
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I don't know if there are any Bond fans on here, but something kind of bugs me: "Quantum of Solace sucks for not having a world-domination plot, a non-over the top Goldfinger or Pleasence Blofeld, for not having gadgets, for being dark, for being an action film!"... What!? CR received SO much praise for these aspects (and rightfully so, it's definitely the best Bond in terms of a character-study) , so why when QoS implements them do people complain!? Sure, CR is a MUCH better film, but liking CR for what QoS does but hating QoS for it is ridiculous. CR didn't have a Goldfinger/P. Blofeld villain in LeCheiffre, or a world domination plot, and Bond was human... Sound familia? Something that reviewers should've taken into account:

3 things:
1.) QoS is a continuation of CR
2.) Jumping straight into a YOLT type Bond film after CR would be a bad move
3.) If it was over the top and inspired by films like YOLT, it would have been criticized for being silly and dated, especially in the post Austin Powers world.

QoS to Skyfall works because we're getting a more natural progression of the Bond regulars, like gadgets, over the top villains, Q, Moneypenny, and a male M. To bring those elements in while the CR story needs a little more finishing wouldn't have worked. Having a separate story for Skyfall to introduce those elements is what needed to happen. It's almost like they forgot CR came out and changed the Bond franchise, and are acting as if QoS is a follow up from DaD or something. I'm not saying QoS is a perfect film, but it's definitely better than what fans are starting to make of it. It's problems (such as some overly-quick edits at parts) don't stem from what it isn't/ Going by how QoS was reviewed, CR should've been reviewed poorly too. It's just stupid of the reviewers. I'm not saying reviewers have to be Bond fans to review, that would be silly. I'm just saying they shouldn't be hypocritical.

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2015, 02:16:46 AM »
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Craig's quickly climbing the ranks as my favorite Bond (yes, even past Connery, sue me), so I've always enjoyed them both and have never understood all the hate that Quantum gets. The golden era of Bond's ridiculously over-the-top missions and Cold War evil moguls has passed, and it's silly to compare the Bond of now with the Bond of then.

Plus, Quantum's entire premise is closure over Vesper; her death, why she chose to die, and who she was before meeting Bond. That's the main point of the film, with the scrawny oil guy who can somehow walk several miles after splitting his foot in half with a fire axe and his whole power grab and a little more reveal of SMERSH (yeah, I know it's not said to be SMERSH in the films but that's who they basically are goddammit and I forget what they go by in-movie) through the tracking of Mr. White and Axefoot are second to that.

But that's the key plot; answers to all the questions Vesper left in her wake and closure for Bond about it all. And I think that's perhaps why people don't like it.

Those people want the old Bond back; a lustful smartass who'll basically fuck anything with a pulse who went into volcano lairs with an army of ninjas to stop a themed villain with a really fluffy cat from gaining a space laser that can make the ice caps melt and then everyone would have to parachute-surf to get around but then at the last minute the laser hits the mountainside and a large drilling vehicle drills into the villain but he survives and tries to fight Bond but Bond wins and force-feeds him a pill that makes him inflate like a balloon and drops him onto a giant satellite dish and he splatters everywhere but he's still alive and then the space laser's station blows up and the whole thing falls on him.

Stop laughing that's a composite of multiple plots of the classic-era Bond films.

Meanwhile, Quantum comes along and does none of that, and continues a facet about Vesper specifically I think many of the anti-Quantum fans forget; Bond actually loved her, and had planned on retiring from espionage so they could go off and live together. She was the first and I'm pretty sure the last, and the damage from that is what put up the walls that more or less just turned him into a sex-hound. The golden-era classic representation of Bond conflicts with this incredibly touching and deeply human sentiment that Royale begins and then Quantum expands on and closes out. It's not flashy, it's not over-the-top, it's not the crazy awesome escape that Bond films have been known to be; it's all really just a closure story for Bond's heartbreak.

That's what I think the reason is, anyway.


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Offline Shiroi Koumori

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2015, 02:43:44 AM »
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I didn't like all the Craig Bond films. The plot is ok. It is Craig that I have a problem with. He's not handsome enough.... (my opinion)

Offline Abnormal Freak

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2015, 02:58:32 AM »
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Plus, Quantum's entire premise is closure over Vesper; her death, why she chose to die, and who she was before meeting Bond.

That's pretty much the only thing that makes the movie worthwhile: seeing Bond pissed off and kicking ass. At the end, he's ready to be a proper MI6 agent.

The trouble is the action is of the "woo shaky cam" variety which was a poor choice coming off Martin Campbell's brilliant and visible action in the previous movie. The main villain and steal-all-the-water ploy are also absurd. It was great to see it the first time just to see Bond vent his anger and disobey all orders, but most of the movie is just kind of dull.

Skyfall got back to having a solid story with good action. Still not as great and palpable as Casino Royale but a better movie than Quantum of Solace in just about every way, worthy of revisiting. I have hopes for Spectre likewise being good.

Quantum of Solace was a bit of a misstep and just doesn't hold up on repeated viewings, in my opinion. It should've been tighter and had perhaps a director who was known for good action. Almost everything about it feels like a TV movie on a bigger budget.

At the end of the day, I doubt any Daniel Craig Bond film will be as good as Casino Royale. It does what few Bond films do: create a believable world. Call me crazy, but I don't care much for the camp factor in most Bond movies; the best one I've seen is From Russia with Love, which plays out like a Hitchcock thriller. I've never read an Ian Fleming book but I've been led to believe this is more in tone with the original works. Literally the only gadget you get is a suitcase with some booby traps and weapons hidden in it.

...Then in the next movie, Sean Connery Bond is wearing a hat with a duck on it as camouflage and hanging out with a hippie commune, and it just gets stupider from there.

Oh yeah, and also:
meat

Soda as well.

Offline Crying Freeman

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2015, 07:50:47 AM »
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Craig's quickly climbing the ranks as my favorite Bond (yes, even past Connery, sue me), so I've always enjoyed them both and have never understood all the hate that Quantum gets. The golden era of Bond's ridiculously over-the-top missions and Cold War evil moguls has passed, and it's silly to compare the Bond of now with the Bond of then.

Plus, Quantum's entire premise is closure over Vesper; her death, why she chose to die, and who she was before meeting Bond. That's the main point of the film, with the scrawny oil guy who can somehow walk several miles after splitting his foot in half with a fire axe and his whole power grab and a little more reveal of SMERSH (yeah, I know it's not said to be SMERSH in the films but that's who they basically are goddammit and I forget what they go by in-movie) through the tracking of Mr. White and Axefoot are second to that.

But that's the key plot; answers to all the questions Vesper left in her wake and closure for Bond about it all. And I think that's perhaps why people don't like it.

Those people want the old Bond back; a lustful smartass who'll basically fuck anything with a pulse who went into volcano lairs with an army of ninjas to stop a themed villain with a really fluffy cat from gaining a space laser that can make the ice caps melt and then everyone would have to parachute-surf to get around but then at the last minute the laser hits the mountainside and a large drilling vehicle drills into the villain but he survives and tries to fight Bond but Bond wins and force-feeds him a pill that makes him inflate like a balloon and drops him onto a giant satellite dish and he splatters everywhere but he's still alive and then the space laser's station blows up and the whole thing falls on him.

Stop laughing that's a composite of multiple plots of the classic-era Bond films.

Meanwhile, Quantum comes along and does none of that, and continues a facet about Vesper specifically I think many of the anti-Quantum fans forget; Bond actually loved her, and had planned on retiring from espionage so they could go off and live together. She was the first and I'm pretty sure the last, and the damage from that is what put up the walls that more or less just turned him into a sex-hound. The golden-era classic representation of Bond conflicts with this incredibly touching and deeply human sentiment that Royale begins and then Quantum expands on and closes out. It's not flashy, it's not over-the-top, it's not the crazy awesome escape that Bond films have been known to be; it's all really just a closure story for Bond's heartbreak.

That's what I think the reason is, anyway.

My thoughts exactly, man! Another things fans forget is how DaD was wicked over the top in it's later half and is shat on to this day for that reason. Do people want to see Craig do some Tsunami surfing? Ride in an invisible Aston Martin again? Or even go into space to stop global genocide like in Moonraker? Of course not! People need to know that the over the top Bond can't work in today's world. With how quick people are to make fun of a film that is remotely silly, Bond needs to be serious and more plot driven, as Craig's films have done. And with the overly PC world we're in now, we can't have the sexist and misogynist Bond anymore.

I hope people will be happy with Spectre ging back to the old traditions in a modern form (OHMSS theme, more exotic set pieces, the Connery dinner jacket get-up, gadget-laden vehicle etc.) I was happy with QoS, and while the villains had a scheme different from CR, it is still a CR continuation, taking place immediately afterwards, and I LOVE it for that. And part of the fun for first time watchers is wondering if Bond is really out for revenge or his duty, which is paid off at the end. I don't think we will, but I REALLY hope we hear about Vesper, the money, and maybe a bit of how Bond screwed up Quantum with his involvement in Greene's plans. I'd like to think after 2 screw ups in LeCheiffre and Greene, Spectre tries to eliminate Quantum completely, which is why Mr. White is in hiding and paranoid of them.

Offline Crying Freeman

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2015, 07:54:02 AM »
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I didn't like all the Craig Bond films. The plot is ok. It is Craig that I have a problem with. He's not handsome enough.... (my opinion)

Nothing wrong with that, man, we all have our likes and dislikes. My unpopular list goes:
1.) Dalton
2.) Lazenby
3.) Craig
4.) Moore
5.) Conney
6.) Brosnan

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2015, 10:25:22 AM »
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Well, depending on how much content they draw from the novels, Vesper opted to die in return for Bond's safety, and in CR they explained her theft of the money as the tradeoff. If I'm recalling correctly (it's been a while since I've really read the books, the most recent read was Casino and that was almost a year ago), that was basically all there was to the deal. Vesper would see the one-eyed man tailing them, until she finally contacted him and/or SMERSH (Quantum or whatever in the films) and made a deal for her to hand over the money in exchange for leaving the two of them alone. It's explained in the films that she knew they probably wouldn't have let her walk away alive, as she knew too much, but Bond hadn't seen any of the operatives' faces to know who they were (the SMERSH operative in the books just carves the SMERSH emblem (the letter M) into his hand, more or less tells him to watch his ass, and says that he's only sparing him because he had no orders to kill him). From this we can conclude that Vesper knew Bond had planned on leaving MI6 to be with her, and that if all went as she'd have liked it, they'd both be let go and they could go do whatever. I'm of the belief that following her theft of the money, her guilt overtook her and she couldn't live with herself being with him after that betrayal, or that her death would solidify his safety a bit more because she wouldn't be a compromising liability to SMERSH.

But that's speculation based more from the books, since in the novel of Casino there's no collapsing building in Venice (I assume the place was Venice, I don't remember if it tells us), she just downs a bottle of sleeping pills and leaves Bond a note explaining everything. Her suicide in the books is much less spontaneous and suggests a lot of premeditation.

But yeah, as far as Vesper and the forty million francs (I forget how much USD it was in the movie) go, it appears to canonically be little more than a "don't kill him and I'll give you what you want" tradeoff.


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Offline Mooning Freddy

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2015, 11:59:57 AM »
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I think this describes the difference between the old Bond films and Craig's ones:

Super-villian puts Bond in a ridiculous device at his secret base that would shortly kill him and leaves, only for bond to brilliantly get away at the last second because he's a superman; movie cheese that worked well in the 60's-70's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK2reKzyx_k

Cruel, sadistic bad guy tortures bond in a dark dungeon. Bond escapes by mere luck; He's not a superman; just a man with balls of steel (lol) as he is in the books. More dark and dramatic and fits our era of addiction to gore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDJOXiPSRIs
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Offline Crying Freeman

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2015, 04:34:48 PM »
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That's pretty much the only thing that makes the movie worthwhile: seeing Bond pissed off and kicking ass. At the end, he's ready to be a proper MI6 agent.

The trouble is the action is of the "woo shaky cam" variety which was a poor choice coming off Martin Campbell's brilliant and visible action in the previous movie. The main villain and steal-all-the-water ploy are also absurd. It was great to see it the first time just to see Bond vent his anger and disobey all orders, but most of the movie is just kind of dull.

Skyfall got back to having a solid story with good action. Still not as great and palpable as Casino Royale but a better movie than Quantum of Solace in just about every way, worthy of revisiting. I have hopes for Spectre likewise being good.

Quantum of Solace was a bit of a misstep and just doesn't hold up on repeated viewings, in my opinion. It should've been tighter and had perhaps a director who was known for good action. Almost everything about it feels like a TV movie on a bigger budget.

At the end of the day, I doubt any Daniel Craig Bond film will be as good as Casino Royale. It does what few Bond films do: create a believable world. Call me crazy, but I don't care much for the camp factor in most Bond movies; the best one I've seen is From Russia with Love, which plays out like a Hitchcock thriller. I've never read an Ian Fleming book but I've been led to believe this is more in tone with the original works. Literally the only gadget you get is a suitcase with some booby traps and weapons hidden in it.

...Then in the next movie, Sean Connery Bond is wearing a hat with a duck on it as camouflage and hanging out with a hippie commune, and it just gets stupider from there.



I agree, CR and Skyfall are both better films than qos by miles. The film does have some big problems with the action, WAY to fast and finicky as you point out. Calling it a TV movies on a higher budget is the perfect way to describe it. I'd give it a 7/10 personally.

My problem with reviewers is that their complaints weren't from points like yours, which are the films problems, they complained that it wasn't like.the next Moonraker (a film that IS criticizes for the campy over the top stuff). And I don't see why Almalric gets so much flack as the villain. People call him a whimp or pussy who can't stand up against Bond, yet in the previous film, LeChriffre wouldn't possibly get a punch on Bond. He's a coward who resorts to torture and poison to knock out Bond. Greebe, on the other hand, DOES fight Bond, and even gets a few hits on him. LeCheiffre, even as one of the best villains in the series, would be a coward if he had to go 1 on 1 with Bond.

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2015, 06:29:46 PM »
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In the film, at least. In the novel he's described as very large and built like a barrel.


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Offline Crying Freeman

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2015, 06:32:40 PM »
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In the film, at least. In the novel he's described as very large and built like a barrel.

Have the novel, still need to read it. I remember the 50s CR TV special had Peter Lorre as LeCheiffre, who fits that description more than Mads Michelson (I know I must've spelt it wrong lol).

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2015, 09:07:11 PM »
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The only bond film I even enjoyed watching was Moonraker. I'm not really fond of the other films. Although I did find Living Daylights a good action flick for the time, so I guess that's another film I like. As for the films that have come out recently, I'm not into them. The one element I really liked about the old Bond films was the gadgets. In every movie there was some more gadgets for Bond that Q had manufactured. Now? With the way our world is in terms of technology? It's very difficult to do the gadgeteering thing without having to overstep into the realm of science fiction. Granted all the Bond films had done so but while the devices were wondrous they were still plausible. Now, with the Daniel Craig films and several of the pre-Craig films we see gadgets that anyone can already get their hands on whenever they go to an Apple store. It just takes away all the fun and intrigue.
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Offline Dracula9

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Re: Love for Casino Royale, Hate for QoS
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2015, 04:45:01 AM »
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Each to his own. I'm personally not a fan of the Bonds that step into sci-fi (Moonraker's finale turning into a laser battle from Star Wars? Ew, no thank you.), but I see their merits to those who do.

The main thing of value to note is simply that old Bond was made for a lighter time, and all the Q-Branch gizmos keep their relevance during the Cold War era the original Bonds were in, whereas the new Bonds are modern and must rely less on silly or creative gadgets and more on capabilities of the man himself.

You just couldn't have Craig fly into Japan, take up karate lessons in a dojo for twenty minutes and become a master, then amass an army of ninja to attack the villain's volcano lair. It's simply too ridiculous now.


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