Topic: Ideas For a Modern Classicvania

[Inccubus]

It's different, not a flaw. That's what I take issue with.

The sub-weapons are treated differently. They are not always necessary, but often useful. And as I said above, and you admitted, they are improved on as well. The dedicated sub weapon button made a huge difference to me.

SCV4 is an easier game to get into, and it's made to be that way. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's certainly not a flaw as most complaints about the series before it were that the difficulty was too high. It's a logical progression.

Not only does the improved whipping make it easier, but also does the other improved mechanics, like the sub-weapons, jumping on and off stairs, and the crouch walking. These were all new things in SCV4 and things my child self jumped up and down about when the game came out. But again, no one ever mentions those features when talking about why the game is easier to play.

What do players considered balanced? The over the top difficulty of most other classicvanias? Or the easier leveling up style metroidvanias? Personally I think SCV4 offers the perfect difficulty level for most players. It seems to me to be just the right porridge.

Pointing out that the whip is longer in SCV4 versus past CV's doesn't mean that the game is out of whack and balance. All it means is that the whip is longer and the game is slightly less difficult in some situations. There is nothing deductive about that.

I'll say it again. It's a bogus gripe that's been perpetuated by a bogus youtube video.

To get back on track..

Wouldn't it be marvelous to see an open world Castlevania built on the SCV4 engine? Yes. It would probably be the best thing ever.

I have to disagree. The disparity between the improvements to the whip in contrast to the minimal changes to the sub-weapons is a flaw in that it diminishes their purpose. Thankfully, this is only one of a very few flaws the game has. However, it is also the biggest one from a design perspective.

Now, I never said that the 8-way whip was a flaw in and of itself, and I certainly never thought it was. It's the difference in the level of improvements that I see as a flaw. In it's simplest terms the whip is more fun, but the sub-weapons are not more fun. The whip steals a lot of the sub-weapons' thunder.

I've never spoken to the difficulty of SCV4. I honestly never really thought about the difficulty of the game when I was a kid. I never felt it was too easy, but then again I never felt that the earlier games were too hard either. I wouldn't even remotely consider the classicvanias to have over-the-top difficulty. I reserve that distinction for Ninja Gaiden, Abodox and Astyanax.

I do clearly remember that I used the sub-weapons much less frequently because I never needed to, unlike the earlier games.
CV1 & CV3 have candles that are out of reach vertically, for example. This basically doesn't happen in SCV4 where the whip can nearly reach the top of the play area (aka not including the HUD) from the very bottom of the screen at the height of a jump. What use is the axe, really, when nothing is ever legitimately out of reach?
The stopwatch and cross are the only ones that have any utility at all, but again that is diminished by the fact that you can hit most things from 1/3rd of a screen length away. And projectiles are a joke because you can leave the whip limp and basically create a shield around Simon that can destroy them all on contact.

Ask yourself this; is there any situation in SCV4 that you can't easily overcome with the whip alone? Is there any situation in that game that requires a sub-weapon to overcome? For me the answer is no. And that is what I consider a design flaw. The new whip mechanics render the sub-weapons nearly useless and the improvements to them are more for convenience than increased utility.

I will point out now, that I never said the game was unbalanced.
Nor have any of my arguments been taken from any youtube video, though Egoraptor did make me think deeper upon my own observations and experiences.


And getting back on the track you started, as long as the game used a larger resolution, I think an open world SCV4 would rock.
I envision something like a CV2 style world with more deliberate level design populated with varied enemies and props.
That would be fantastic.

Just as a sidebar on what Belmontoya has stated. If SCIV is so popular, why has Konami capitalised on its success the same way Nintendo has with ALBW? Somethings not right... That something is Konami.

As much as bashing Konami is fun and well deserved, I can only think that the logical answer is that either a significant number of people complained that the game was too easy or the sales figures showed it wasn't as well received as we core fans would like to believe.

[KaZudra]

Let's get to a point in which none of the Castlevania games have EVER tackled fully.
The Vampire Killer is a Whip, and if you've done a little research on whips you'll find that these weapons are a pinnacle of versatility, why not just keep the whip leather for long range bursts and the handle can be used as a close range heavy bash? Why not allow the player to disarm and steal enemy weapons?
And with that, versatile sub weapons could come to mind, allow the player to swing that axe before chucking it, or allow 8-direction knife throwing to snipe those hard to reach fast moving enemies beforehand, stuff like that is how Classicvania can modernize; expanding on the foundation in ways that really haven't been done before.

[zangetsu468]

Let's get to a point in which none of the Castlevania games have EVER tackled fully.
The Vampire Killer is a Whip, and if you've done a little research on whips you'll find that these weapons are a pinnacle of versatility, why not just keep the whip leather for long range bursts and the handle can be used as a close range heavy bash? Why not allow the player to disarm and steal enemy weapons?
And with that, versatile sub weapons could come to mind, allow the player to swing that axe before chucking it, or allow 8-direction knife throwing to snipe those hard to reach fast moving enemies beforehand, stuff like that is how Classicvania can modernize; expanding on the foundation in ways that really haven't been done before.

That just sounds way to complex for classicvania. Imo this is what was done in the LOS series, while it works for a 3D Castlevania, it fairs horribly on a 2d/ 2.5d environment (MoF)
I would like to see the subweapons have a secondary function (not simply an item crush) which could be evolved somewhat along the lines of the player's firepower in Gradius. (a Konami title afterall)

I do actually like the idea of 'swinging the axe' if it's anything like Shanoa's glyph union axe swings then fuck yes!

[Inccubus]

I always thought that it never made sense that the Belmonts were often depicted carrying swords or daggers, but never used them in any of the games.
But, the idea of using the handle for a short range bash attack would be a viable alternative for sure.
Brings to mind the spike powerup the combat cross gets.

Stealing enemy weapons is a fun idea too. I liked that you could basically do that in Wind Waker. I hated that you couldn't keep them for later use.

The improved versatility of sub-weapons reminds a bit of similar discussions I've heard about the Robot Master weapons in some of the Megaman games being useless and needing more utility and versatility.
Megaman 9 in particular does a great job of introducing greater versatility to new iterations of old weapons. The best example being the Jewel Satellite which very elegantly gave the upteenth iteration of the shield weapon the ability to not block projectile, but rather reflect them back at enemies as an attack.

With that in mind, the throwing knife, for example, could have the secondary effect of being able to be used as a temporary foothold when embedded in walls. The caveat would be that they break if you stand on them too long and get dislodged immediately after you jump off of them.

[X]

With that in mind, the throwing knife, for example, could have the secondary effect of being able to be used as a temporary foothold when embedded in walls. The caveat would be that they break if you stand on them too long and get dislodged immediately after you jump off of them.

I remember playing a game a while back that had this exact same mechanic. Shame I don't remember the title... 

[Belmontoya]

I think it would be cool to see subweapons used as stronger short range attacks, or projectiles.

A subweapons attack would be shorter range than the shortest whip and .5 stronger.

Mig and I have a nicely refined 8-way whipping system in our game, Wallachia. It requires more upgrades to get to full size. A full length whip would be earned over a level or 2. Not given away in the first screens of every stage. The full length also features a saw tip that can be spun at a cost and keeps the whip extended.

[zangetsu468]

I always thought that it never made sense that the Belmonts were often depicted carrying swords or daggers, but never used them in any of the games.

CV64/ LOD would like a word. There's a dedicated attack button for the sword. A pity it's only really used for cutting candles when you're standing too close and deals less damage than the player's primary weapon. (even Cornell had this dedicated Secondary attack)

Technically Richter's sprite from SOTN onward also does use the sword re: his Down, Up + Attach move which does a superjump. In the mainf frames of the animation you see him thrusting a sword upwards.

[X]

Technically Richter's sprite from SOTN onward also does use the sword re: his Down, Up + Attach move which does a superjump. In the mainf frames of the animation you see him thrusting a sword upwards.

I always thought that was his whip. But I suppose it could be his dagger, except for the handle of the dagger being too long in the sprite image.

[zangetsu468]

I always thought that was his whip. But I suppose it could be his dagger, except for the handle of the dagger being too long in the sprite image.

Actually on re-inspection I think it is the VK.

N64 games only then.

[KaZudra]

That just sounds way to complex for classicvania. Imo this is what was done in the LOS series, while it works for a 3D Castlevania, it fairs horribly on a 2d/ 2.5d environment (MoF)
I would like to see the subweapons have a secondary function (not simply an item crush) which could be evolved somewhat along the lines of the player's firepower in Gradius. (a Konami title afterall)

I do actually like the idea of 'swinging the axe' if it's anything like Shanoa's glyph union axe swings then fuck yes!

Not too complex since Megaman Zero Did it already with the Z-Knuckle.
Let's use examples instead of description, Classicvania has always been about precise platforming and Enemy pattern memorization, Let's just give an extra element to make it more interesting.
Belmont is in a room with axe armors, traditionally you'd dodge and whip the projectiles to defeat them, the whip can grab and disarm enemies by nature of the true weapon.
New scenario, Axe Armor chucks axes, belmont can grab a thrown axe and send it right back to him either causing damage or simply blocking the next thrown axe.
This is also a logical way of cycling non-whip weapons since Belmont can "borrow" an enemy's weapon to perhaps have an advantage on the upcoming boss.
Essentially it's just Z-Knuckle, but with some practicality, Disarming an enemy with precise timing is what the whip does, why not Finally implement that? in turn for balance, enemies can be programmed with more tricks up their sleeves to keep the player thinking on their feet.

As for Bashing, it's optional, it'll work better for a LoS game, but it's still there to put on the table.

Basically the goal of every game is to add something interesting to an already set formula

[zangetsu468]

Kazudra, in short I think some of your ideas are interesting. but using the whip purely for disarming and killing them with their own weapons again sounds like LOS more so like MoF to me. If this was the whip in Zelda SS then yes, if it were a secondary weapon I'd agree, but the VK has been the Belmonts' primary weapon since Leon, I think it should remain the main weapon not the secondary weapon.

If new game mechanics are added like having to destroy a knight's shield with a subweapon prior to using the whip, thiss would make more sense to me.

Remember the gauntlet in LOI? they should add a 'parry' technique where the protagonist can deflect enemy attacks and send projectiles back at them. This would assist with adding more depth to the gameplay without negating the use of the whip, and would make the player think about defending while in offense. Now I know LOI and LOS used this, but fuck the screen slowdown and 30 hit combo systems of the past. The new CV should have short, opportune moments to deal much damage.

[KaZudra]

Not purely for disarming, just add to the VK's Functionality, Kinda like HD's Julius where he has a devoted Button to swing on rings, just allowing that fuction some interaction on enemies as well, Just an idea that may implement more weapons without a massive collection and menu time.

Sub-weapon versatility can also substitute from full-on stealing weapons, Can use the Sub as a main weapon as well as traditional throwing, also has potential of making the II and III blocks more seeked out as the III can turn your knife into a sword or give the axe more area, only problem is that the Cross, Holy water, and Stop-watch have no other uses than throwing, maybe the Cross can be a shield and the Holy water can splash around you like CoD Trevor.

Honestly, the best idea of a modern classicvania would be Harmony of Despair since it's a mix between both new and old, but it does have to be modified a bit to be more enjoyed for what it is rather than Dracula sluaghterfest for those winged boots, still fun, but in a different way.

[Belmontoya]

Honestly, the best idea of a modern classicvania would be Harmony of Despair since it's a mix between both new and old, but it does have to be modified a bit to be more enjoyed for what it is rather than Dracula sluaghterfest for those winged boots, still fun, but in a different way.

If that's the best idea for a modern CV game then we're in trouble.

The bottom of the CV barrel isn't exactly the best place to look for modern ideas.

A modern CV could be classicvania, it could be metriodvania, it could be a hybrid.

I believe the CV formulas of the past are still relevant today. Konami just needs to make something that uses the strengths of the past with a fresh new look, perhaps hand drawn (not 3D). Great eerie music, a whip wielding Belmont, and Dracula.

We don't need a forced online multiplayer. There are other great games that fill that void. Castlevania needs to do what Castlevania was born to do. Be a great single player adventure that challeneges you, enchants you, and gives you chills.

The simpler the better. Just a reboot of CV1. Ya know, what fucking LOS should have been.

[EstebanT]

The simpler the better.

Maybe we can get an Akumajou Dracula Peke remake or sequel for the 30th anniversary. (It would be better than what we got for the 25th)

[zangetsu468]

As much as bashing Konami is fun and well deserved, I can only think that the logical answer is that either a significant number of people complained that the game was too easy or the sales figures showed it wasn't as well received as we core fans would like to believe.

If only internal company sales figures were released to the public. If anything they should be when you're paying for the rights to a game.
Anyway from its history I would say it's the latter. We got no CV games since OOE then suddenly LOS becomes a blockbuster, it's ridden out until the series doesn't sell as well as they'd hoped. I'm certain if LOS2 outsold the first, Konami would have continued a spin off franchise which adopted similar gameplay mechanics from the LOS series. Also CV pachinko seems like a cash grab.

Maybe we can get an Akumajou Dracula Peke remake or sequel for the 30th anniversary. (It would be better than what we got for the 25th)

After what they did to Kojima who was one of their best employees in flesh and blood, I'm almost certain they won't take issue letting a fictional franchise rot. Albeit their own creation.  #fuckonami