Topic: So none of the Wygol villagers are actually descendants of Richter.

[Nagumo]

I don't why I'm making a thread about this, but we need to talk about something, I guess.

Anyway, I was looking at the conversation between Shanoa and Albus at the end of the game in the Japanese version of the game, and when Albus starts talking about the villagers it actually is more specific than the English version. When Albus refers to them he uses the word "enseki" which means "distant relative". So he calls them distant relatives of the Belmont family. It's just a minor detail but it does proof that the theories about Richter's descendant being in Wygol village and Daniela having some sort of connection to Richter can be ruled out.

But then you ask: "Well, if OoE doesn't show what became of the main Belmont line, then what's even the point of the story?". I came up with two possible answers to this. Depending on the answer, it changes my perception of OoE's story.

1) This is my prefered explanation. OoE doesn't actually explain what became of the Belmont family, it actually sets up the protagonists of the later games: the Morris and Lecarde families. This would mean they don't actually have the whip at this point time, so it still has to be handed to them later (I don't know if it's clearly established that the Morris family got the whip from Richter directly or from someone else like Alucard). It would also explain the whereabouts of the Morris family during OoE. You could say they were living abroad at this time but I expressed my problems with that in an earlier thread.

2) The second explanation would be disappointing in my opinion: the story of OoE is completely pointless and the Wygol villagers are just a bunch of nobodies who happen to have Belmont blood, and this blood basically has the plot function of magic fairy dust which can do anything. Also, the Morris family is somewhere doing something and the reason organisations like Ecclesia exist is purely to support the ability gimmick of the main character.

I would really like to believe the first explanation 1 is true, but on the other hand I'm kind of fearful about it actually being 2. What do you guys think it is (or should be)?     

[theplottwist]

I hardly believe it's the second explanation. The villagers are too big of a plot point for them to be pointless. I believe the first explanation more, but when it gets to the Morris part I kinda step back a little.

What were your previous concerns with the Morris living abroad?

[Nagumo]

Well, I personally think that as soon as Morris family gets the whip there is from a storytelling perspective, not necessarily from a pure logical perspective, there's no convincing reason why they would stay in the USA. Of course you could say they are reluctant to meet their destiny and so on, which makes perfect sense in itself, but when you think about the story mechanically, it would just be kind of pointless. You would basically stall their entrance on stage just so that OoE can happen.

It would also like to further defend my stance with a piece of lore introduced by HoD, which is that whenever Dracula revives, all his lackies that got killed off come back as well, and that the Belmont family has the additional duty of hunting them down whenever Dracula is not around. So after SotN we still have a bunch of monsters running around in Transylvania that need to be taken care of. So I think it would be weird if the Morris family would have accepted the whip they wouldn't immediately go after these monsters otherwise they would not fulfill their duty as successors to the Belmont family. 

Of course the duty of destroying these monsters ended up in the various organizations like Ecclesia. So I personally think that when these organisations were around, the Morris family wasn't, not even somewhere else out of sight, because it raises unnecessary questions and doesn't make sense, IMO. Whether that's actually the case is a whole other question of course.

[zangetsu468]

Nagumo, wasn't it also explained in the ending that the power of Dominus that Shanoa uses to defeat Dracula was also aided in part by the her absorbing the glyphs that were imprisoning the Belmont descendants? I thought it was explained that their power was indirectly used with Dominus, which was the very reason Albus kidnapped them.

An answer to your query may depend on where OOE is placed in the timeline. If you follow the theory that Serge is Reinhardt (assuming you believe the 64 games happen in the main timeline) then it's around 1810. This/ similar theories would rule out Richter as Daniela's grandfather.

I always ruled Richter out as Daniela's grandfather anyway as she's at least 70 years old. Even if OOE happens in 1850 it's not enough time for Richter to have been her grandfather. The second point on this is that every Belmont heir to the VK in the main timeline with Legends retconned, is male. Therefore it's not to say other Belmonts including females didn't train and fight, but every main heir has proven to be a male which is necessary for carrying on the family's name until Julius (with the exception of the break between Richter>>>Quincy).

My personal view is that because the Wygol villagers' blood is enchanted (with power) they are actual Belmont blood descendants. I say this because the Morris clan need to undergo a ritual to unlock the power of the VK to access said power. Whether some are more distant that others is niether here nor there but it's that they themselves being men or women are direct offshoots of the Belmont bloodline i.e. A selected few remaining Belmonts of those past who did not inherit the VK. Perhaps some later became Morrises or not (as OOE is set prior to Dracula>POR) is anyone's guess. The reporter kind of looks like Richter, but he could just come from the same family tree.

[theplottwist]

Nagumo, wasn't it also explained in the ending that the power of Dominus that Shanoa uses to defeat Dracula was also aided in part by the her absorbing the glyphs that were imprisoning the Belmont descendants? I thought it was explained that their power was indirectly used with Dominus, which was the very reason Albus kidnapped them.

I know I'm not Nagumo, but I believe this is not exactly it.

You see, Dominus was INDEED built to destroy Dracula, because it has the "Ultimate power of destruction". Proof of this is that it really does destroy Dracula when used. However, due to containing Dracula's great power, it also contains his ability to corrupt.

The Belmont power was only needed so Shanoa would not be corrupted by this power while in the mission to use it against Dracula. Each of the Belmont relatives contributed a little with this power so Shanoa would resist Dominus as she absorbed it in pieces. She has at least two villagers rescued before she gets the first Dominus piece.

In the final battle we get a clear demonstration from Dracula himself that Shanoa simply CAN'T defeat him. He was merely toying with her all the time. It can be even inferred that the fact he doesn't even turn into a demon abomination is also a demonstration of how she isn't even scratching him.

He didn't expect her to have his own power under her control, however, as we see in his last words. He recognizes that the power of Dominus is his, and that possibly it is the only thing besides the Vampire Killer that can destroy him.

[theplottwist]

Well, I personally think that as soon as Morris family gets the whip there is from a storytelling perspective, not necessarily from a pure logical perspective, there's no convincing reason why they would stay in the USA. Of course you could say they are reluctant to meet their destiny and so on, which makes perfect sense in itself, but when you think about the story mechanically, it would just be kind of pointless. You would basically stall their entrance on stage just so that OoE can happen.

Well, the thing here is: The Morris didn't receive the whip to fight Dracula, but to guard it. As Jonathan's dialogue with Wind in Portrait goes, the Morris weren't expected to wield the whip at all, but to keep it until the Belmonts could wield it again in 1999. So this is a pretty good reason why they would stay in the US - there had no need for them in Romania. That is, until Dracula rose and they had to take an instance.

It would also like to further defend my stance with a piece of lore introduced by HoD, which is that whenever Dracula revives, all his lackies that got killed off come back as well, and that the Belmont family has the additional duty of hunting them down whenever Dracula is not around. So after SotN we still have a bunch of monsters running around in Transylvania that need to be taken care of. So I think it would be weird if the Morris family would have accepted the whip they wouldn't immediately go after these monsters otherwise they would not fulfill their duty as successors to the Belmont family. 

With this I agree. Judgment and Castlevania II also support this, as Simon is still hunting well after Dracula is gone. Richter is also hunting on the radio drama - though I'm not sure if he's after Dracula lackeys.

Of course the duty of destroying these monsters ended up in the various organizations like Ecclesia. So I personally think that when these organisations were around, the Morris family wasn't, not even somewhere else out of sight, because it raises unnecessary questions and doesn't make sense, IMO. Whether that's actually the case is a whole other question of course.

And this is what I was going to say; Ecclesia took up the mantle of riding the land from evil. This doesn't necessarily means that the Morris were useless. If their duty was to guard the whip (and in Ecclesia it is said that the whip has disappeared - which could mean it is already with the Morris OR gone with Richter) then guarding the whip is what they're doing, while Ecclesia takes up the fighting.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAND I double posted. I'm sorry

[Nagumo]

Hmmm, I never got the impression the Morris family were just guardians. This quote from PoR makes me pretty confident.

Jonathan: I just don't get it... Why did the Belmonts give this
          thing to the Morris family?! If not for this, we would
          be spared so much pain!

Eric: Because the Belmonts cannot touch the whip now. It is
      predicted that Dracula will be revived in year 1999. I've
      heard that the Belmonts must not touch the Vampire Killer
      until then.

Jonathan: But...!

Eric: Others have appeared to revive Dracula in the meantime.
      Somebody has to stand up and stop them. And only the
      Morris family is able to do that!

Perhaps more strong evidence is from the "Before Gallery of Labyrinth" section from the PoR official guide, in John's brief bio, it mentions he fulfills the role of vampire hunter.

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-por/game-castlevaniapor.htm

[X]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAND I double posted. I'm sorry

lol. It's the triple posts you gotta look out for 

[Claimh Solais]

The reporter kind of looks like Richter, but he could just come from the same family tree.

I'm literally not furthering this discussion by saying this, but I also wanna point out that the reporter has the same English voice actor as Richter, too (David Vincent).

[theplottwist]

Hmmm, I never got the impression the Morris family were just guardians. This quote from PoR makes me pretty confident.

Perhaps more strong evidence is from the "Before Gallery of Labyrinth" section from the PoR official guide, in John's brief bio, it mentions he fulfills the role of vampire hunter.

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-por/game-castlevaniapor.htm

Wielding the whip doesn't seem to be a prerequisite to be a vampire hunter, though. They could be vampire hunters very well without needing the whip to do so.

Also, something you said that ringed another bell:

So I personally think that when these organisations were around, the Morris family wasn't, not even somewhere else out of sight, because it raises unnecessary questions and doesn't make sense, IMO. Whether that's actually the case is a whole other question of course.

If by "being around" you mean "being useful" then it could be. But if you mean "existing" then I disagree. The Morris are direct descendants of Trevor Belmont - as stated in the family tree appearing in the Lament of Innocence Guide - so they have existed for many centuries now (one reason why I believe that the Morris were the ones chosen to keep the whip).

So they could have carried the vampire hunting business from their side of the family.

[AlexCalvo]

I actually asked Iga in the reddit AMA what the deal was with the Morris family during the events of OoE.  His translator said it was a long explanation that he would post later... never happened. 

[zangetsu468]

Did Dominus corrupt Barlowe, making him want to revive Dracula? I always had the impression Barlowe was just corrupt and Ecclesia was a front for reviving Dracula rather than destroying him. There's only 100 yrs between Rondo and Dracula the novel. Thus aside from OOE there wouldn't have necessarily been many if any other instances of an NCR. 

[Shiroi Koumori]

Richter is also hunting on the radio drama - though I'm not sure if he's after Dracula lackeys.

He was hunting werewolves and other sorts of minions if I recall correctly.

[theplottwist]

Did Dominus corrupt Barlowe, making him want to revive Dracula? I always had the impression Barlowe was just corrupt and Ecclesia was a front for reviving Dracula rather than destroying him. There's only 100 yrs between Rondo and Dracula the novel. Thus aside from OOE there wouldn't have necessarily been many if any other instances of an NCR.

I always got the impression that Barlowe was corrupted by exposure to Dominus (like Albus was). I mean, if Dominus was meant to revive Dracula, why the hell does it work just like Barlowe "tricked you into believing" it would? Sure, it kills the user, but it sure as heck kills Dracula too.

Shanoa also mentions this on her conversation with Barlowe:

(click to show/hide)

Barlowe: Because without [Dominus], I'll never destroy that infernal seal.

Shanoa: ...Seal? You told me that was the vessel of Dracula's soul!

Barlowe: Of course! Ecclesia's mission is to realize the singular wish of all
mankind: the resurrection of our lord, Count Dracula!

Shanoa: Mankind wishes for no such thing.

Barlowe: Dracula's power comes from the darkness in people's hearts--our
hearts. Ask yourself then, why does he continue to return, regardless of
defeat? Because our hearts yearn for Dracula's presence! Haaaa ha ha ha ha ha!

Shanoa: ...Just another victim of [Dominus]... It's driven you mad!

Barlowe: No, Shanoa... How can you be blind to this? ...If you refuse to see,
then you are the fool!

Plus there is more: We see by Barlowe's sacrifice that a simple sacrifice could've broken the seal. So no, Dominus was not needed at all to break it. More evidence that it was always meant to destroy Dracula, but Barlowe got crazy and repurposed Dominus' function.

[Nagumo]

I actually asked Iga in the reddit AMA what the deal was with the Morris family during the events of OoE.  His translator said it was a long explanation that he would post later... never happened. 

I saw that and I was a bit disappointed, too. Too bad there's no other opportunity to ask IGA again.

Wielding the whip doesn't seem to be a prerequisite to be a vampire hunter, though. They could be vampire hunters very well without needing the whip to do so.

I don't think there is any material that definitely states whether or not the Morris family uses the Vampire Killer outside of Dracula battles. I'm more inclinded to believe they would, but since I can't back that up with hard facts, it's just my opinion.

Something else I wanted to bring up is that I believe after OoE came out it became commonly accepted that "The Belmont family ended up in Wygol village" was the explanation for what happend to them after Richter disappeared. ...but now that explanation falls apart because of the Wygol villagers being only distant relatives. Which means we still don't know where the actual Belmonts are. So now we're basically back at the beginning. Oh well.