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Offline coinilius

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Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« on: November 08, 2015, 01:41:24 AM »
0
A couple of months ago I embarked on a mission to play through all the (non-Lords of Shadow) Castlevania games in a Timeline-based order... now by Timeline-based order, I mean that I have put all the games on a single timeline, irregardless of whether they are actually meant to be part of a single timeline or not.  So it has included things like Castlevania Legends, Order of Shadows, etc, all jammed in together.  I've even gone further into fan fiction territory to order things like Super Castlevania IV and Haunted Castle as being separate events to the original Castlevania (a third and fourth encounter with Dracula, to be precise) just to give me a nice order to play them in!

So, I have recently finished up CotM and have just started on Order of Ecclesia and what I find interesting playing the games in 'timeline' order is that coming from Symphony of the Night (by way of the Radio Drama) into CotM, it really does feel out of step with the rest of the series.  The lack of Belmonts, the backstory of their being an encounter with Dracula 10 years earlier, the different setting... it really does make CotM not feel like part of the regular Castlevania series and timeline.

But then, once you hit OoE... it actually reaches back and makes CotM feel more like part of the timeline after all.  Now we know that the Belmonts have disappeared from history, that other groups have tried (and failed) to fill the gap... even Dracula's remains in OoE are being held in some kind of coffin/statue/thing that is kind of like how Dracula was sealed in a coffin at the start of CotM.

IMO, all CotM needs to make it feel more 'in tune' with the series would be a prequel comic/manga or (better yet) game that tells the story of the 1820 sealing of Dracula, framed by the idea that the Graves and Morris Baldwin are working on a way to stop Dracula because the Belmonts have disappeared and I really think it would tie CotM in well.

Of course, it does bring up the problem that Dracula is being resurrected a lot during the 19th Century - even with the N64 games omitted,  that would be 1820, 1830 (CotM), 18?? (OoE) and 1897, coming off resurrections in 1792 (RoB) and 1797 (SotN).  No wonder Dracula is so cranky, his nap is constantly being interrupted!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 01:22:13 AM by coinilius »

Offline Shiroi Koumori

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2015, 01:45:43 AM »
0
Ahahhaa on the cranky part. I think Drac lost his last shred of humanity after SOTN. The other resurrections were just Chaos manifesting itself as Drac.
And to look into human history, a lot of events happened in the 19th century. This might also contribute to the chaotic struggle of the times. Not to mention, Bloodstained will also be part of that era.

Offline coinilius

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2015, 06:03:46 AM »
0
Ahahhaa on the cranky part. I think Drac lost his last shred of humanity after SOTN. The other resurrections were just Chaos manifesting itself as Drac.

I have seen a theory like this mentioned in older threads that I have read on here - and indeed, within SotN they do seem to make a big deal in the ending about Lisa's last words and Dracula asking her to forgive him
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:23:57 AM by coinilius »

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2015, 06:14:23 AM »
0
My personal theory on OOE which some may disagree with - however is backed up by certain sites like CV wiki - is that Ecclesia was a
(click to show/hide)
I myself believe that the vessel in OOE which radiates a red hue is actually the Crimson Stone
(click to show/hide)
which is tying it into the series more strongly imo. This as well as Dominus, which most CV fans would be aware of by now being one of the very few 'non-Belmont' occasions to defeat Dracula. 

Cotm could hypothetically occur in the same timeline, there's nothing to say that other Belmont descendants/ offshoots weren't also training and/ or passed the Vampire Killer at some stage. However, I personally don't believe or like to place every game on one timeline, but that's just me. It doesn't make COTM any less of a game imo. I kind of like the fact that it is a one off gem that exists within its own context but is still CV at heart. 

Check my timeline in my signature, if anything I'd rather place Cotm into the parallel timeline with the n64 games rather than the main timeline.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:19:22 AM by zangetsu468 »
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
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            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
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            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline coinilius

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2015, 06:41:03 AM »
0
Hey zangetsu468 - we were talking about your timeline in another thread, good to see you adding some thoughts here as well!

I'm not sure about the vessel in OoE that Dracula is sealed in being the Crimson Stone though - it looks more like a statue/coffin... thing.  Didn't the Crimson Stone
(click to show/hide)

My play through isn't based on the idea that they actually are all in one timeline, except for the purposes of this very specific playing of all the games.  Basically, I just wanted a neat framework for how I was going to approach playing them, and doing it this way seemed like an interesting idea because I could see how the timeline unfolds as well as see where all the offshoots and aborted games are supposed to fit in (or not fit in as the case may be).  I just found it interesting that when I first played CotM it really did give off a strong 'this is a one -off/alternate universe' vibe, but when I fired up OoE, it actually made me rethink how out of place CotM really is.

Warning, here there be fan fiction:

Further to how it would fit in, I actually don't think any of the characters in CotM are Belmont offshoots or descendants - I would instead imagine that Morris Baldwin and the Graves represent another faction trying to fill the void left by the Belmonts and that the Hunter Whip is an attempt to create another Whip of Alchemy, to have another weapon to use against Dracula.  If they were on the same timeline, then after the events of CotM, Dracula's resealed remains would be entrusted to Ecclesia by Morris Baldwin.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2015, 07:52:06 AM »
0
Well a couple of general things about the Crimson Stone.
It is the stone Dracula wears, however, it does take on an external more metaphysical/ alchemical form as can be seen in LOI
(click to show/hide)
I don't necessarily believe it has to be one constant form for a few reasons:
1) Dracula always seems to have this as part of his attire in some form (as form 1 Dracula, generally where he's dressed as a man).
2) It is thought that possessing this stone allows him to
(click to show/hide)
However, he obviously doesn't physically possess it when he's dead, and can't physically wear it. Therefore I do believe in the concept of this artefact existing in a more metaphysical/ alchemical sense. I tend to think Dracula's bond with the stone goes deeper than a physical accessory.
3) Assuming point 2 which I do believe, there's only 1 vessel I know of that holds Dracula's soul and is associated with crimson. Referring back to point 1, I do believe the physiognomy of this stone has altered and grown to reflect Dracula's power over the centuries. Again yes it is a physical object but it could be manifesting things and taking on forms which are purely metaphysical in essence. This seems to be a common theme tailored to OOE with the existence of Glyphs and I'm comfortable to apply this context and say that not every occurrence or element of CV must necessarily be the same in every game. That's simply my reasoning.

It's an interesting thought and entirely possible. It would be interesting to do a little digging and try to be a 'linearist' as opposed to a splitist... Ah look at what Legend of Zelda has done to me..
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2015, 09:58:07 AM »
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Quote
Ahahhaa on the cranky part. I think Drac lost his last shred of humanity after SOTN. The other resurrections were just Chaos manifesting itself as Drac.

I doubt this very much as Chaos itself cannot be contained in any limited form as it's just too much power. The frail body trying to hold in the amount of Chaos would break apart right then and there (even if that body is Dracula's). Perhaps a creature born out of chaos could inhibit Dracula's body, but not Chaos itself. That's just too much as we're literally talking about cramming one-half of the universe into a finite body. It just can't be done. And I know I've said this more then once but Chaos isn't a being per se but the apposite of Order; two sides of the same coin. And both being nesissary for all of existence as we know it. However, having Dracula tap into the Chaos source would give him an unlimited repository of dangerous powers, and making him the threat we've all come to recognize throughout the series. And he would have used that very power to create Castlevania itself.
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Offline Dracula9

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2015, 12:07:22 PM »
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While I share the agreement of Dracula's last remnants of humanity departing post-SotN, I've never believed what came after to be Chaos at all. Rather, I feel that Dracula's soul was split, as it were, between his good side (which ascends to join Lisa after Alucard defeats him) and his evil side (which obviously could not ascend and remained corporeal); his evil side is what has continued to return after SotN. This also can explain why his power increases more as the series leads up to the DCW; he's nothing but pure hatred now, and hatred only causes more hatred, which just feeds the cycle and makes him stronger with each resurrection.

There's also the similarity to the Lords of Shadow doing the exact same split-soul thing, which I frankly believe adds weight to the theory as Lords was rife with references and themes from older titles. But that's another discussion entirely.



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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2015, 02:19:16 PM »
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@Shiroi/ Dracula9
Although Dracula's humanity does seem to be a persistent theme in SOTN (which would be the last time his "human self" would resurrect) there's still that question of the imagery on the wall prior to the Death/ Dracula battle in POR which clearly shows what CVDites in the past have believed to be The Dragon, Lisa and Alucard. I'm just thinking it would be kind of odd to have that directly outside the throne room if there was no meaning behind it, even though this Dracula seems more like an incarnation of evil.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline theplottwist

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2015, 03:02:04 PM »
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IGA himself has already clarified this issue:

Quote
In SOTN, Dracula was defeated but why is he still being resurrected in the later eras?

When someone is sealed in Makai (Demonic realm) only the evil part of that person is amplified. Whenever cult members perform the resurrection ritual, if Dracula himself is not willing, it is supposed that only the evil intent is resurrected.
However, it is thought of that Dracula will be given eternal repose someday.

So, basically, when Dracula dies, he's sent to the Demon Realm, and whatever evil he had is amplified. When he's revived, if he's not willing to return - which seems to be the case after SotN - he's brought back from the Demon Realm with his evil side amplified and his good side is pruned - ergo why Dracula seems bent in destroying mankind even after seemingly redeeming himself. He's literally evil incarnate - his own evil amplified by the Demon Realm.

D9's understanding is the one that approaches the explanation the most, I believe.

Translation done long ago courtesy of Shiroi when I was doing my research on Dracula's revival cycle for Umbra of Sorrow. The original quote comes from an interview in the Dengeki Playstation magazine, and is as follows:

Quote
開発者がひもとく「ドラキュラ」の秘密3 改心後も復活してしまう訳:
PS「月下の夜想曲」で、ドラキュラは改心して滅びていくんですが、そのあとの時代でもなぜか復活しています。
これは魔界に封印された者は、その邪悪な部分だけが増幅されるため、
邪教の信者などが時期を見て復活の儀式を行えば、ドラキュラ本人の意思を伴わずに、邪悪な意思だけが復活するためと思われます。
ただ、いつかはドラキュラにも完全な安息を与えたいと思っています。
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 03:22:11 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2015, 03:27:39 PM »
0
Hmm, it makes sense. Which game/ artefact did the text come from?

I'm curious as to how this would play between Rondo/ SOTN as Rondo's Dracula seems more malicious in burning a village, kidnapping women, 2 of which are of importance to Richter, etc. Then of course there is
(click to show/hide)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
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                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline coinilius

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2015, 04:24:51 PM »
0
I'm curious as to how this would play between Rondo/ SOTN as Rondo's Dracula seems more malicious in burning a village, kidnapping women, 2 of which are of importance to Richter, etc.

Dracula still waged war on humanity and targeted the Belmonts before SotN though - he was still malicious and evil before the 'good' side of his soul was forgiven/ascended/made peace.

Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2015, 05:02:07 PM »
0
Edit: I just read the part about Dengeki Magazine being the source. Assuming the person interviewed was Iga?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 05:33:02 PM by zangetsu468 »
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline theplottwist

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2015, 05:06:47 PM »
0
Edit: I just read the part about Dengeki Magazine bring the source. Assuming the person interviewed was Iga?

Yes the interviewee is IGA. This question, btw, was asked on an issue mostly about Castlevania Chronicles.
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Observation about Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2015, 05:35:51 PM »
0
Yes the interviewee is IGA. This question, btw, was asked on an issue mostly about Castlevania Chronicles.

Was it inferred that this was the case with Chronicles Dracula ?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

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