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Offline Nagumo

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I recently came across something interesting and I developed the following theory: that before IGA created his timeline, the Dracula Densetsu games (The Adventure and Belmont's Revenge) with Christopher Belmont predate Akumajou Densetsu with Ralph/Trevor "Christopher" Belmont. There's a bit more to this theory than I'll probably write in this post, since I'll try to keep this as straight forward as possible. So I present the following evidence:

1. The ending of Dracula Densetsu II/Belmont's Revenge
In the ending it says Dracula was defeated because of Christopher's love for his son and that Soleiyu would succeed Christopher as vampire hunter. In then says the following: "このごベルモンド血すじはバンパイアハンター・ディーとしていくた伝説を生み語りつがれていくことになる。"(From then on it had come to pass that many legends about the Belmont lineage as vampire hunters would be passed on). I'm sure how clear this is reflected in my translation, but this definitely states that from this point forward the Belmont family would become vampire hunters.

2. The manual/opening narration of Akumajou Densetsu
ここにきて正教会はついに、太古にまでさかのぼる古い血筋を持ち、忌まわしき者達との戦いの中で生き延びてきた一族である真正ヴァンパイア・ハンターと呼ばれるベルモンド家にワラキア討伐を依頼することとなった。(Eventually the Orthodox Church decided to request the Belmont family, a family possessing an old lineage dating to ancient times who had survived battles with abominale beings, and were called genuine vampire hunters, to go on on a elimination mission to Wallachia.)

I think it's logical to conclude that 2 follows from 1, correct? In Christopher's time the Belmont family are established as vampire hunters, and by the time of Akumajou Densetsu they had built up their reputation as "genuine vampire hunters" (and before that they had been exiled). Although IGA placed it first in the timeline, nothing in Akumajou Densetsu outright denies Dracula and the Belmont family had a conflict before. (I made to sure to check that). 

Another small part of this puzzle, yet an important one, is the following. This is from a fan interview with the scenario writer for Akumajou Densetsu:   

Q: 889: ラルフ・C・ベルモンドのCはクリストファーだったのでは? ドラキュラ伝説が同時期に出て年表がおかしくなったのは社内打合せ不足?
A: 890-891: > ラルフ・C・ベルモンドのCはクリストファー です。表の資料に書いてあるかどうかは知らないけど。 > ドラキュラ伝説が同時期に出て~ 違うチームが作ってたからじゃないかな。その時はもう自分居なかったし。○松さんはその辺こだわる人じゃないように見えたから、そのせいかもしれない。IGA体制後に関しては全く知らない。[...]

Q: Did the "C" from Ralph C. Belmont stand for Christopher back then? Did the condradictions with Dracula Densetsu, which came out at the same time, occur because of lack of internal meetings?
A: The "C" from Ralph C Belmont stands for Christopher. I don't know if this is written in the instruction manual. I wonder if it was because Dracula Densetsu came out and was developed at the same time? At that time I wasn't there anymore. Matsu-san didn't seem like the person who occupied himself with those things, it might be because of that. I'm not at all familar with the IGA system that came afterwards. [...]
 
So I think that given the above statement and the fact that Akumajou Densetsu takes place 100 years before Simon's era, it can be concluded that Ralph was meant to be the same person as the Christopher who was mentioned to have defeated Dracula 100 years before in the Famicom Akumajou Dracula manual. Christopher in the Famicom manual was said to have had a confrontation with a revived Dracula, so that would be evidence for Dracula to have revived pre-Akumajou Densetsu.

Anyway, it appears that by Simon's time, Ralph became known by his middle name Christopher in the legend that was passed down afterwards. This seems to create a bit of an odd situation where there exist two Christophers: The Dracula Densetsu Christopher and Ralph a.k.a Christopher. 

In think this might also explain why Dracula's age is given as 800 years in the Rondo of Blood manual (before the Mathias Cronqvist story was even conceived). Akumajou Densetsu kind of seemed to imply Dracula was the historical Vlad Tepes. However, since the Dracula Densetsu games supposedly take place before that, it opens up the possibility of Dracula being older. Also, there's a magazine preview for Rondo of Blood from a Japanese magazine that seems to imply the order Christopher --> Ralph --> Simon.

Offline theplottwist

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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 11:21:22 AM »
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Interesting that you have reunited more evidence. But I thought this was granted already (and by yourself proving this in the past) ;D

One thing that bugs me about Christopher is that he wasn't added to the Greatest Five. Such a shame, seeing as he is one of the few heroes who fought Dracula twice and survived.
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Offline Lelygax

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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 04:23:05 PM »
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Deja vu... You did the exact same thing years ago Nagumo, now I'm feeling old xD
My point persists, they aren't widely known after CV3, but they became famous after Belmont's Revenge, also its good to see you again here.
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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2016, 07:32:39 PM »
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It's also interesting to note that the official art for Christopher shows him wearing furs with leather strappings. But when we see Trevor and Simon's official art, they're sporting more advanced armors of better quality--either leather, steel, or both. I personally don't mind if Dracula's age pushes him back further then his anointed time in CVIII. It helps with explaining the Alucard bit. But making Dracula into someone else was a no-no. He could have still been Vlad, just much, much older then history officially accounted for.
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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 12:21:28 AM »
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Interesting that you have reunited more evidence. But I thought this was granted already (and by yourself proving this in the past) ;D

One thing that bugs me about Christopher is that he wasn't added to the Greatest Five. Such a shame, seeing as he is one of the few heroes who fought Dracula twice and survived.

Yeah and Juste was included instead!  If it was Leon, Trevor, Christopher, Simon and Richter that would have been all the canonical Belmonts who have defeated Dracula during his 100 year resurrection cycles up to that point (and Leon, who started it all).

Offline Nagumo

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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 11:56:37 AM »
+1
Hmm, I think I made a similar statement in the past, but I erroreously theorized that Akumajou Densetsu and the Dracula Densetsu games were mutually exclusive to each other. I hadn't even considered the possibility before that Christopher actually predated Ralph. So I was quite suprised that, after I came up with that theory, it kept passing my falscification tests.

Deja vu... You did the exact same thing years ago Nagumo, now I'm feeling old xD
My point persists, they aren't widely known after CV3, but they became famous after Belmont's Revenge, also its good to see you again here.

Yeah, I posted that like 3 years ago, didn't I? And it's good to see you again, too. Anyway, but doesn't CV3's plot depend on the Belmonts being famous? I think that also wouldn't quite fit with the Dracula Densetsu games. I didn't mention this, but the phrasing from the manual of the first Dracula Densetsu it's evident this is Dracula's first confrontation with someone else. For example, it says that before that game, Dracula wasn't a Dark Lord yet. So, from what I read in the manuals and so on, I think it's unlikely that Akumajou Densetsu was originally meant to take place first. I also think it's important to mention the intro and manual of Akumajou Densetsu mentions it takes place 100 years before Simon's era, so it would impossible for it to take place earlier than that, at least not without ignoring certain information.

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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 12:55:19 PM »
+1
Yeah, I posted that like 3 years ago, didn't I? And it's good to see you again, too. Anyway, but doesn't CV3's plot depend on the Belmonts being famous? I think that also wouldn't quite fit with the Dracula Densetsu games. I didn't mention this, but the phrasing from the manual of the first Dracula Densetsu it's evident this is Dracula's first confrontation with someone else. For example, it says that before that game, Dracula wasn't a Dark Lord yet. So, from what I read in the manuals and so on, I think it's unlikely that Akumajou Densetsu was originally meant to take place first. I also think it's important to mention the intro and manual of Akumajou Densetsu mentions it takes place 100 years before Simon's era, so it would impossible for it to take place earlier than that, at least not without ignoring certain information.

That makes things difficult to me. :P
Lets check some info...

Castlevania: Adventure was released October 27, 1989 on Japan.
Castlevania 3 was released December 22, 1989 on Japan.

(by the way, someone should correct the wikia entry, since it says that CVA is named Akumajou Densetsu instead of Dracula Densetsu)

Castlevania 3 japanese intro:
(click to show/hide)

Castlevania Adventure japanese manual:
(click to show/hide)

Castlevania: Belmon's Revenge japanese manual:
(click to show/hide)

Also there is a entry on the wikia without sources but:
IGA stated this discrepancy happened because of lack of coordination between the teams who were responsible for the games. When IGA created his timeline, he corrected it by placing Dracula's Curse 100 years before The Adventure, which itself takes place 115 years prior to the events of the original Castlevania.



It shows that they really screwed it and at the time, one game nullifies the other as if some people tells the legend in a way while other people change some details while passing it on to another people, feels really like a "legend" (all because they did the game at the same time).

Sure, we can fit Adventure before CV3 because it doesnt mention a date, we would be basically exploiting a weakness on the plot and would need to ignore that they don't mention anywhere in CV3 that Dracula was been defeated before and that he was revived. Call me a heretic, but if we go by manual rules, at the time Adventure would seems to be more canon than CV3, since they mention Christopher and not "Trevor Christopher".
But using "in-game" rules, it nullifies Adventure as being canon at the time. We really have two sides of the same coin here.

Also we need to pay a big attention to something, they first say that Dracula wasn't a Dark Lord/Devil because they were telling you the story about Dracula in a brief, but notice that at the end of the same manual they mention him as a devil. Basically it tells that he became a Dark Lord some time before (years, months, days?) before Christopher decided to make something about it.

Thanks for opening my eyes and showing that these games are paralels to each other, but it seems that they basically tell the same story with a very different perspective. Now I imagine what would happen if we mixed the story from Dracula Densetsu and Akumajo Densetsu, made it work, and named it Akumajo Dracula Densetsu.
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2016, 11:29:12 AM »
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First of all, I forgot to mention I should try and find some Japanese magazines that contained previews or advertisements about Belmont's Revenge that may reveal if Christopher was indeed regarded as the progenitor of the Belmont family.

Ok, so I assume you are arguing that Christopher's story and Ralph's story cancel each other out, so to speak, correct? I believed this to be true as well before, but there are a couple of weak points to it (these points convinced me to switch to my current theory).

First of all, although this is a relatively minor point, that magazine I mentioned in my first post, which dealt with Rondo of Blood, it mentions Christopher, Ralph, and Simon in the story section in that exact order. This does seem to imply Christopher and Ralph were regarded as seperate people back then.

Secondly, if you would stricly follow the "manual rules" as you mentioned, the Famicom Akumajou Dracula manual mentioned that when Christopher had his confrontation with Dracula, Dracula was said to have been revived. Given that the manual of Akumajou Densetsu mentions the game takes place 100 years before Simon, even if you would ignore Dracula Densetsu, Dracula had to be have revived before Akumajou Densetsu's events if the game doesn't want to conflict with the manual of Akumajou Dracula, regardless if the game itself indicates this or not.

Although it might be argued the game does slightly hint at this. The ending of the game mentions "the demons that Dracula had summoned to earth had once again returned to sleep". Which might imply the situation in Akumajou Densetsu had happend once before in the past, I'm not entirely sure, but when I think about, since in the sentence I'm talking about has "the demons that Dracula had summoned to earth" is the subject of the sentence and about that subject is said "they once again returned to sleep", it would possibily make the sentence grammatically incorrect in Japanese if Dracula hadn't summoned demons to earth before. But I won't fully commit to that argument yet.

Sure, we can fit Adventure before CV3 because it doesnt mention a date, we would be basically exploiting a weakness on the plot and would need to ignore that they don't mention anywhere in CV3 that Dracula was been defeated before and that he was revived. Call me a heretic, but if we go by manual rules, at the time Adventure would seems to be more canon than CV3, since they mention Christopher and not "Trevor Christopher".
But using "in-game" rules, it nullifies Adventure as being canon at the time. We really have two sides of the same coin here.
   

I disagree it's exploating a weakness in the plot. At least, it might be possible to it like that, but the story writer of Akumajou Densetsu already exploited this weakness, so I don't see that as at all problematic. He retconned the chronology from that time already a little a bit by saying Simon's predecessor was named Ralph and his middle name was Christopher in order to still stay consistent with the Akumajou Dracula manual. This retcon does require a small mental excercise when reading the Akumajou Dracula manual, by assuming Ralph becames known by his middle name later on, but since this mental exercise is "endorsed" by the story writer, it's perfectly valid to use that interpretation.

What I think the root of the problem between Akumajou Densetsu and Dracula Densetsu is that:
1) Akumajou Densetsu was the story about Christopher (actually Ralph) and Dracula's fight 100 years before Simon
1) Dracula Densetsu places itself as the absolute first story in the chronology. So given that fact, the game had to take place at least 200 years before Akumajou Dracula for that to work, yet the protagonist of this story was named Christopher for whatever reason. If the protagonist of that game wasn't named Christopher, it would have been completely straight forward.
         
Also we need to pay a big attention to something, they first say that Dracula wasn't a Dark Lord/Devil because they were telling you the story about Dracula in a brief, but notice that at the end of the same manual they mention him as a devil. Basically it tells that he became a Dark Lord some time before (years, months, days?) before Christopher decided to make something about it.
   

Well, there is indeed to telling how much time is covered by the Dracula backstory. It could be years or even centuries of him gaining power. However, given how the story is phrased, it's written like Christopher rising up against Dracula is a direct result of the preceding paragraph (Dracula gaining power). It would feel very forced if you would squeeze a confrontation inbetween those two events. Not to mention, placing Akumajou Densetsu before Dracula Densetsu is impossible without ignoring the former's prologue/manual and the latter's ending (see my previous posts).
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 11:31:37 AM by Nagumo »

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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2016, 12:50:09 PM »
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I think you guys are making too many assumptions about the circumstances of the apparent conflict and over thinking how much emphasis was actually put on continuity.

This whole thing is problematic because one can easily imagine many possibilities...
Perhaps both games were intended to tell the same story and then someone in charge changed their mind and had them add Ralph to the AjDen Chris.
Or...
AjDen was intended to be the Chris story from the start but the DDen team thought that was what they were supposed to be doing but when someone noticed they adjusted AjDen in favor of DDen since it was completed first.
Or...
DDen was intended to be the Chris story all along and the miscommunication was on the AjDen end and the team didn't notice until DDen was finished and then adjusted AjDen the simplest way they could.
Or...
The suits didn't know which system to go with and told both teams to make a Chris game and whoever finished first would get the honor, but when they reviewed AjDen it was so impressive they decided to publish it too with a small adjustment to the Hero's name.
I could go on and on.

I think both teams most likely were working on a Chris story for whatever reasons. Both games using the name Christopher from the AjDrac manual is evidence enough for this. We simply don't know if the hero of AjDen started as Ralph or Christopher and without that crucial piece of information it makes it very difficult to conjecture about which was intended to be what or if there was even any such intent at all. So in truth this intent is currently unknowable.

The only thing that is certain is that there may or may not have been a miscommunication at some point. And when your only certainty is that there is a multiple choice answer then you really have no certainty at all. Either way we have a Belmont named Christopher fighting Dracula 100 years prior to Simon.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 01:23:50 PM by Inccubus »
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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 03:43:17 PM »
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1. The ending of Dracula Densetsu II/Belmont's Revenge
In the ending it says Dracula was defeated because of Christopher's love for his son and that Soleiyu would succeed Christopher as vampire hunter. In then says the following: "このごベルモンド血すじはバンパイアハンター・ディーとしていくた伝説を生み語りつがれていくことになる。"(From then on it had come to pass that many legends about the Belmont lineage as vampire hunters would be passed on). I'm sure how clear this is reflected in my translation, but this definitely states that from this point forward the Belmont family would become vampire hunters.

Not "become vampire hunters", but be well known as vampire hunters. What is implied here is that they become famous.


Quote
2. The manual/opening narration of Akumajou Densetsu
ここにきて正教会はついに、太古にまでさかのぼる古い血筋を持ち、忌まわしき者達との戦いの中で生き延びてきた一族である真正ヴァンパイア・ハンターと呼ばれるベルモンド家にワラキア討伐を依頼することとなった。(Eventually the Orthodox Church decided to request the Belmont family, a family possessing an old lineage dating to ancient times who had survived battles with abominale beings, and were called genuine vampire hunters, to go on on a elimination mission to Wallachia.)

The problem here is that you're assuming that they are being called genuine vampire hunters by the general public. It is not specific and it could mean that they are known as genuine within the church itself.

Quote
I think it's logical to conclude that 2 follows from 1, correct? In Christopher's time the Belmont family are established as vampire hunters, and by the time of Akumajou Densetsu they had built up their reputation as "genuine vampire hunters" (and before that they had been exiled). Although IGA placed it first in the timeline, nothing in Akumajou Densetsu outright denies Dracula and the Belmont family had a conflict before. (I made to sure to check that). 

I could just as easily say the opposite if I assume that the Belmonts were only known as genuine vampire hunters within the church and that the general public didn't know about them outside of being being feared by whomever it was that exiled them.


Quote
Another small part of this puzzle, yet an important one, is the following. This is from a fan interview with the scenario writer for Akumajou Densetsu:   

Q: 889: ラルフ・C・ベルモンドのCはクリストファーだったのでは? ドラキュラ伝説が同時期に出て年表がおかしくなったのは社内打合せ不足?
A: 890-891: > ラルフ・C・ベルモンドのCはクリストファー です。表の資料に書いてあるかどうかは知らないけど。 > ドラキュラ伝説が同時期に出て~ 違うチームが作ってたからじゃないかな。その時はもう自分居なかったし。○松さんはその辺こだわる人じゃないように見えたから、そのせいかもしれない。IGA体制後に関しては全く知らない。[...]

Q: Did the "C" from Ralph C. Belmont stand for Christopher back then? Did the condradictions with Dracula Densetsu, which came out at the same time, occur because of lack of internal meetings?
A: The "C" from Ralph C Belmont stands for Christopher. I don't know if this is written in the instruction manual. I wonder if it was because Dracula Densetsu came out and was developed at the same time? At that time I wasn't there anymore. Matsu-san didn't seem like the person who occupied himself with those things, it might be because of that. I'm not at all familar with the IGA system that came afterwards. [...]

This seems to clearly indicate that there was not a lot of focus on details and continuity.


Quote
So I think that given the above statement and the fact that Akumajou Densetsu takes place 100 years before Simon's era, it can be concluded that Ralph was meant to be the same person as the Christopher who was mentioned to have defeated Dracula 100 years before in the Famicom Akumajou Dracula manual. Christopher in the Famicom manual was said to have had a confrontation with a revived Dracula, so that would be evidence for Dracula to have revived pre-Akumajou Densetsu.

Doesn't it say that AjDen takes place "more than 100 years" before Simon as stated in the manual?
I agree it is likely Ralph was intended to be Chris originally, but that is not the case in the end.
The manual of AjDrac does indeed say a Chris fought a revived Dracula, but that is not evidence for it being AjDen instead of DDen.


Quote
Anyway, it appears that by Simon's time, Ralph became known by his middle name Christopher in the legend that was passed down afterwards. This seems to create a bit of an odd situation where there exist two Christophers: The Dracula Densetsu Christopher and Ralph a.k.a Christopher. 

This is a pretty big assumption that complicates the situation more than it solves anything. And it hinges on other assumptions being true as well. I don't agree with this at all.


Quote
In think this might also explain why Dracula's age is given as 800 years in the Rondo of Blood manual (before the Mathias Cronqvist story was even conceived). Akumajou Densetsu kind of seemed to imply Dracula was the historical Vlad Tepes. However, since the Dracula Densetsu games supposedly take place before that, it opens up the possibility of Dracula being older. Also, there's a magazine preview for Rondo of Blood from a Japanese magazine that seems to imply the order Christopher --> Ralph --> Simon.

I would argue that every game in the series implies that CV Drac is analagous to RL Drac simply because of the name.
Dracula the vampire in the his first literary appearance is outright stated to be one and the same being as Vlad III.
At this point we still only have one solid century to work off of; the 15th as stated in the manual and intro of AjDen.
But then SotN happened...

Dracula's True Origin - [1792-800 = 992]
AjDen - [1400s = X-(100+U)], more than 100 years prior to AjDrac. Best guess is that according to AjDX2 this game must take place in ~1470.
DDen - [X-100 = 1592-V*100], 100 years prior to AjDrac. At minimum this game must take place in 1492.
AjDrac - [X = 1692-V*100], at minimum this game must take place in 1592 according to AjDX2.
Prior to AjDX - [W = 1692]
AjDX - [X+Y*100 = W+100=1792], 100 years after the prior battle. SNES version states multiple centuries since Simon. PCCD manual states Dracula is "800 (?)" years old.
AjDX2 - [1792+4], the Richter vs. Dracula battle is stated to take place in 1792 and that the game starts 4 years later.Dracula, The Undead - [1897]
Bloodlines - [1917], some unknown time after the beginning of World War I.

If You take the stories of the CV games as presented in both their manuals and in-game text up to this point there is a reasonable timeline that fits well enough with the 100 year resurrection mythos. And there is basically nothing to support or deny the possibility the AjDen was intended to come after DDen.

However, I will bring up something that you didn't; Ralph C. Belmont. It is common for a child to have a middle name derived from a parent or grandparent. So Ralph's name could be another indication of intent, but again it is not supported by anything concrete. You would have to make an assumption that Ralph's middle name came from Chris, or that Chris was named after Ralph's middle name. So we are really just back to square 1. We really just don't know enough to say anything for sure.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:40:51 PM by Inccubus »
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Offline theplottwist

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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2016, 03:52:08 PM »
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Bloodlines - [1914+Z], some unknown time after the beginning of World War I.

1917 is the year of Bloodlines.
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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2016, 04:40:23 PM »
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1917 is the year of Bloodlines.

Updated. Thanks.
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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2016, 06:04:10 PM »
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The fact unfortunately is that prior to Iga's official timeline, there was virtually no effort to establish a canon by the varying chapters of Konami Computer Entertainment. They just made games and said "yeah that looks good". For the most part, this worked on a game by game basis, but had its own issues. Meanwhile, retroactively shoehorning in a canon timeline caused as many breaks as it mended, and discussions here routinely prove that these are some fairly serious problems.

Even after that, there's translation hiccups and contradictions, remakes of old tales with unclear scaling of canon, and worst of all, endless amounts of incredibly vague and minimalist storytelling. Honestly it all just snowballed into a horrid mess, and after all this time, stuff like the light novels have never been made available in America, so many American fans are left without crucial pieces of the puzzle.

Iga's attempt was noble but damaging, imo, and it's no wonder why headcanon is so rampant in this fandom, as opposed to something like Halo, where things are tightly controlled and always have been.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 10:06:32 PM by The Bloody Rayne »
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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2016, 07:58:18 PM »
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Agreed. I've been refining the facts as I know them and it seems pretty evident how some of this took place.
For example if you take the fact that the manual for RoB it says that Dracula is maybe 800 years old.
If that is true and you take the date for RoB as stated in SotN (both US and Jap) then he has to have been born in 992 AD.
Which is just fine and actually makes a great starting point for figuring out the dates for every game that came before.
However...
When IGA went in and did what I imagine to be the same thing I'm doing he decided to shift some stuff around to make LoI coincide with the start of the Crusades. This helped make it easier to set up some story elements, but also forces you to retcon Dracula's age in RoB.

I've actually never looked at all this myself, but I already have a working timeline. Think I'll even start a new post about it.
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Re: I think Christopher originally came before Trevor/Ralph pre-IGA
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2016, 09:03:17 AM »
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Thank you for the criticial responses by the way. It's important to be skeptical when considering a theory, since it helps us come closer to the truth.

The problem here is that you're assuming that they are being called genuine vampire hunters by the general public. It is not specific and it could mean that they are known as genuine within the church itself.

Fair enough. You would need more context in order to better judge the contents of that sentence. I didn't provide the translation for the sentence that follows. So this is my fault for not providing the full context. Sorry about that. Anyway, that sentence is as follows: "ベルモンド家はその人間離れした強靭な精神・肉体能力のためヴァンパイアと同じように受け止められ、人々から恐れられ疎んじられてきたために、いつしか人々の前から姿を消していたが、手を尽くして捜索し、ようやくベルモンドの血を受け継ぐ若者を見つけ出した。 " (The Belmont family were treated no differently than vampires because of their superhumanly strong spiritual and physical abilities, for which they came to be feared and shunned by the people, and one day disappeared from the people's presence. However, after relentless searching, at last, a young man who inherited the blood of the Belmont family was found.)

I think it's very clear from this passage that the Belmonts had a reputation among the local population. So your interpretation wouldn't quite work.   
 
Not "become vampire hunters", but be well known as vampire hunters. What is implied here is that they become famous.

Yeah, that's right. Christopher was a vampire hunter already, of course. But I think it's also important to consider that in the sentence before, it's mentioned Soleiyu (or Soleil) would took over Christopher's role as vampire hunter. So, to me, this implies that from that point forward, the Belmont becomes famous as a vampire hunter lineage, the reason for why they weren't famous as a vampire hunter lineage before being that Christopher was the progenitor. I think that is further strengthened by the manual of the first Dracula Densetsu acting like its the origin story of the chronology (not sure if you agreed with that or not).     

But let's just go along with your interpreation. I still think even if you would interpret it like that, it supports my argument, because Akumajou Densetsu's plot is dependant on the Belmont family being famous. (see above and my previous posts)     

Doesn't it say that AjDen takes place "more than 100 years" before Simon as stated in the manual?
I agree it is likely Ralph was intended to be Chris originally, but that is not the case in the end.
The manual of AjDrac does indeed say a Chris fought a revived Dracula, but that is not evidence for it being AjDen instead of DDen.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I looked into that, and given the phrasing in the Japanese text, it's a bit misleading to translate that line as "more than 100 years". The expression that is used, "100余年", is actually like saying "a 100 odd years ago". Of course, that would sound awkward in English, so I understand why it was translated like it has been, but it's important to be aware of the nuance. But why would they say a 100 odd years ago? That would imply at most 109 years, correct? I think they did that in order to account for Simon's Quest, since if you would go back in that time from that game, technically it would be 107 years. But this means Akumajou Densetsu was definitely meant to take place roughly 100 years before Akumajou Dracula. Because of that, and because the intention of the story writer was for Ralph to be Christopher,  I do think combined this is solid evidence for Akumajou Densetsu originally being the same event as the "Christopher vs revived Dracula" conflict .   

This is a pretty big assumption that complicates the situation more than it solves anything. And it hinges on other assumptions being true as well. I don't agree with this at all.

Yeah, all my individual points are only convincing when taken all together, so it's a bit hard discuss these points on a case by case basis. Just out of curiosity, what do you think are the assumptions I'm making? Knowing that might be helpful with figuring out what kind of evicende to look for. 

I would argue that every game in the series implies that CV Drac is analagous to RL Drac simply because of the name.
Dracula the vampire in the his first literary appearance is outright stated to be one and the same being as Vlad III.
At this point we still only have one solid century to work off of; the 15th as stated in the manual and intro of AjDen.
But then SotN happened...

Actually, don't forgot Rondo of Blood. That one definitely denies Dracula being the historical Vlad Tepes because of his age (unless Rondo of Blood takes place in the 23th century). Dracula's age from that game is actually something what makes me more confident in my theory since I just can't think of any other reason for why else they would go so blatantly against Akumajou Densetsu's story. What also might be interesting to note is that Toru Hagihara worked on both Rondo and Dracula Densetsu II. So he might very well have been aware of CV Dracula predating his Akumajou Densetsu appearance when establishing Dracula's age in the manual.   
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 09:07:28 AM by Nagumo »

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