Topic: Reconciling Mathias with Vlad III

[zangetsu468]

You were in the thick of it the same as the rest of us, and you're backpedaling now. If you're salty, fine. If you've decided to focus on the things you enjoy rather than the things that annoy you, equally fine.

But do not sit there and talk all aloof like you've been above this conversation from the start. That's not how it works.

..........

I guess the long-and-short of this would be: you can believe whatever and do whatever, but please don't act aloof or like you're above the discussion you were so vehemently a part of just a short while ago when I or someone else happens to question your motives or rationale, because it really comes off as something you're probably not really intending and because of the likelihood of miscommunication I'm finding this whole exchange grossly out of character for you.

Out of character is the only thing I disagree with you on D9. Here's why..

I have to say something here and I don't really care if people (mods included, I'm sorry in advance but this has to be said) think I am out of line.

I agree strongly with Dracula9's point of view and it's really starting to frustrate me that when a bunch of us are in the heat of a debate and Bloody Scholar is involved something like this happens http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8473.45.html
It then winds up with a deterrent or some throw away statement such as "just a game", "possibilities are endless" etc.
I'm not going into detail but this backpedaling business is seriously annoying me.

If people want to debate, good - debate, if you're adamant in your beliefs then be that way, but similarly if you're proven otherwise then ffs just take it in stride and either gather evidence to argue against and/or move on.

My belief is that we're all here to learn something by connecting with each other. People here have some kind of vested interest in Castlevania and right or wrong in that belief it's my belief.
If I debate or argue and someone proves me wrong then I may not like it but I absorb the salt and carry on. Even though I may not like it, there's something much worse: when people throw bullshit motherhood statements at other people to try to blanket the fire which is the fact that they can't back up their own convictions with anything, not even that single grain of salt which right about now is looking pretty damn tasty in comparison.

Yes this statement was pointed but that's MY opinion and I'm not saying this to insult someone, but I have to call things how I see them.

I am not doing this in disdain of one individual, it just is incredibly frustrating to debate in this context.

I've said my peace on the Mathias/ Vlad connection.

 

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Out of character is the only thing I disagree with you on D9.

I actually agree with you that it's not all that out of character for me.

I have to say something here and I don't really care if people think I am out of line.

You're not out of line.

other stuff

I admit it's backpedaling going "it's just a game".

And I did it on purpose. Not as a defensive tactic, mind, but mostly because I'm tired. Not sleepy tired, but just tired of arguing. I'm tired of trying to be right. I'm tired of arguing my (admittedly very stubbornly held) viewpoints. I'm a Taurus through and through and make no apologies for being what I am.

But this thread will go down in history as marking the day I reached my limit.
From here on, it's all just a game to me.
I've gotten way too serious and heated about this franchise, and it's stupid that I did.

Likewise, I shouldn't be getting angry at people on the internet, especially people I respect on the internet. It's a mark of personal failure for me.

While I think you might have been gentler with the slap, I actually appreciate being called out publicly about it. I don't think a mod could have handled my ego as effectively in private.

But anyway, it's just a game for me now, like grade school kickball. Canon shouldn't interest me (it actually kind of hurts to think about at this juncture), and whatever viewpoints I have are my own and not meant to apply to the whole Castlevania franchise blah blah blah insert generic disclaimer here.

I know I can be an ass on frequent occasion. Thanks for putting up with me.

[X]

I think I'm also somewhat indirectly responsible for how things escalated in this thread due to my posts about how I feel in terms of who Dracula is and is not. I just can't help but feel personal about the character Dracula and I don't know why... He's such an iconic figure of both reality, fiction, and especially the CV franchise that I just can't see anyone else take the title, or have writers try to replace him with an unknown entity. It just feels wrong and threatening if that makes any sense to others here. And honestly I don't know why I feel this way. I don't know if we can ever reconcile Mathias with Vlad or vice-versa without quarreling. That damage was done when IGA crafted the LoI backstory. It is definitely a sensitive subject that gets people riled up very easily.

[zangetsu468]

Sensitive as it may be for people, two things to bear in mind:
1) Dracula was completely destroyed in for the first time in 1999 by Julius
2) Iga's timeline (http://nichegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/timeline-side2.jpg) states "Mathias changes hisname to Vlad Tepes and continues to live for hundreds of years".

If there is any reconciliation it's how the two figures co-existed if at all without forgetting the above points.

[chainsawmidget]

No offense to X, but Mathias losing the CS to Vlad III sounds very fanfic.

I don't know, Dracula isn't really Dracula.  He's this other cool guy that I made up who only calls himself Dracula sounds more fanficy to me. 

[zangetsu468]

I don't know, Dracula isn't really Dracula.  He's this other cool guy that I made up who only calls himself Dracula sounds more fanficy to me.

Do you even know the difference between what's counted as canon and what's not?

I don't think how things sound to you is the topic of debate, if people want to make up their own version of the canon then fine, but don't go stating the canon is fanfic purely based on "just because I said so" or "because it doesn't sound the way I want it".
That's really immature.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

One thing that popped into my head literally 30 seconds ago was: what if Vlad II adopted Mathias/Dracula as his son and heir?

I mean, it's headcanon beyond headcanon, but in a certain light it makes everything make sense to me.

I'll be honest, like I said earlier, I'm just throwing stuff at the wall here and seeing what sticks for my own amusement, but bear with me for a sec here.

Suppose that Vlad II Dracul's real son died young (or he just plain didn't have one due to his wife being infertile or what have you) in the Castlevania universe. A guy like Vlad II would totally look at a powerful man like Mathias and go "this guy could be my legacy and guard the borders flawlessly against the Turks."

Some negotiating later, et voila, Mathias is legally adopted by Vlad II under the name of Vlad III, and takes the moniker "Tepes" after showing off his more... brutal way of dealing with foes. I mean, real life Vlad Tepes III had his son born WELL after he'd earned the nom de guerre of Tepes, so that might also explain how Adrian inherited the "name".

Due to this deal, Mathias gets a place he can settle down, a position of authority as a Prince that comes with a comfortingly familiar life that would enable him to meet Lisa, and Vlad II gets a worthy heir who can defend the land after his death. Both parties win.

Granted, this is all after a grand total of 30 seconds of thinking, but it explains a lot to me. I wonder why I never thought of it earlier.

[zangetsu468]

I actually agree with you that it's not all that out of character for me.

You're not out of line.

I admit it's backpedaling going "it's just a game".

And I did it on purpose. Not as a defensive tactic, mind, but mostly because I'm tired. Not sleepy tired, but just tired of arguing. I'm tired of trying to be right. I'm tired of arguing my (admittedly very stubbornly held) viewpoints. I'm a Taurus through and through and make no apologies for being what I am.

But this thread will go down in history as marking the day I reached my limit.
From here on, it's all just a game to me.
I've gotten way too serious and heated about this franchise, and it's stupid that I did.

Likewise, I shouldn't be getting angry at people on the internet, especially people I respect on the internet. It's a mark of personal failure for me.

While I think you might have been gentler with the slap, I actually appreciate being called out publicly about it. I don't think a mod could have handled my ego as effectively in private.

But anyway, it's just a game for me now, like grade school kickball. Canon shouldn't interest me (it actually kind of hurts to think about at this juncture), and whatever viewpoints I have are my own and not meant to apply to the whole Castlevania franchise blah blah blah insert generic disclaimer here.

I know I can be an ass on frequent occasion. Thanks for putting up with me.

Thank you for being the bigger person with this post.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Thank you for being the bigger person with this post.

You're welcome, entire forum. 

Chimichangas all around!

[sadae]

2) Iga's timeline (http://nichegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/timeline-side2.jpg) states "Mathias changes hisname to Vlad Tepes and continues to live for hundreds of years".

I forgot about this completely, but it settles the issue: Mathias IS Vlad Tepes. How he became such is matter of fanfiction and headcanons and we'll probably never agree, not that we have to anyways.

Changing the subject dramatically, I briefly want to say that you people are the most beautiful fandom out there. Other fandoms finish debates with people ragequitting and severe name calling, and despite the heated posts, you all were very nice. :'D I love this place.

[Claimh Solais]

The theory's instability dictates that Vlad III's chances of outwitting Mathias to get the Stone are practically zero.

[...]

Unless I can be rationally convinced of otherwise, it's a crap--but admittedly slightly interesting to ponder for a moment or two--theory that makes no sense purely on the basis of it assuming one character somehow lost all his insanely high intellect and tactical mind and forgetting how his own trick works.

You couldn't beat a chess master with a move he invented; he'd see it coming and know exactly how to counter it, so why the hell wouldn't the same principle apply here?

I'm late in jumping into this thread, but I just wanna say that the whole "Mathias wouldn't be beaten by his own tactic" thing doesn't seem convincing to me. Nor does the "hundreds-of-years-old vampire master tactician can't be beaten by other tactician" thing. I want to remind you that Mathias is a guy who gets beaten left and right the EXACT SAME WAY in nearly every game. The Belmonts are all young adults when they fight Drac/Mathias, in the 19-24 age range. And every time, they defeat him.

Dracula loses every single battle he's in since first meeting Trevor Belmont in the exact same way every time he's revived. He sits in his throne room and gets beat by people who aren't even 25 yet. Heck, he was even beaten by Jonathan and Charlotte, both of whom I believe aren't even 20-years-old yet, AND he had Death at his side. Yes, he had barely been revived, so he was still weak. But again, he's a master tactician who has existed for CENTURIES, and he has the Grim Reaper by his side, and he was beaten by a headstrong brawn-over-brain Jonathan Morris and the even-younger Charlotte Aulin. Yes, Charlotte is a very smart girl with magical abilities, but Charlotte is 16, and I doubt her intelligence, experience, and magical capabilities even come CLOSE to what Dracula can do.

That being said, this happens all the time. Thus, I can't really find those two arguments convincing. Vlad III, based on historical evidence alone, appears to have tactical genius and an intellectual mind that the likes of Charlotte couldn't even comprehend. Yet Dracula/Mathias himself was defeated by these two young adults, even with his high level of intellect, magical capabilities, experience, and Death himself at his side.

I don't agree with the whole "Vlad III stole the Crimson Stone from Mathias Cronqvist" theory, but I'm trying to say that it could potentially hold some water due to the fact that Mathias himself has been outsmarted by even the likes of Jonathan and Charlotte.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: No, it makes zero logical sense as to how a master tactician with hundreds of years of experience and magical capabilities could possibly lose his powers and most precious possession to another tactician who, despite being brilliant as well, does not have what Mathias has. But it also makes zero sense as to how Mathias, with all of that, could be beaten constantly by young adults who definitely lack the experience, knowledge, and magical prowess that he has.

[sadae]

I want to remind you that Mathias is a guy who gets beaten left and right the EXACT SAME WAY in nearly every game. The Belmonts are all young adults when they fight Drac/Mathias, in the 19-24 age range. And every time, they defeat him.

Maybe being revived and killed so many times really does mess you up XD

[Claimh Solais]

Maybe being revived and killed so many times really does mess you up XD

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.

I did read somewhere a LOOOOONG time ago (don't remember where, unfortunately. I can't find the source anywhere) that if Dracula is pre-maturely revived, he loses his memories of past revivals. This would explain a number of things, like why Dracula's moment of clarity at the end of SotN was pretty much forgotten in later entries (both release-wise and chronologically), or why he could be beaten in the same way so many times.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

This is all good and stuff until one realizes there are actually FOUR Vlads who have had a claim to the Wallachian throne, of which Vlad II and Vlad III are the most famous and we don't know if Mathias was one, several, or all of them.

Y'all know me. I don't like to disregard history if I don't have to, and I think it's pretty likely that Mathias *is* Vlad III, but also (slightly less) possibly Vlad II, in a hypothesis I mentioned earlier. I hate not knowing for sure, but I think this is as close as we can get.

Mathias is "most likely but not certainly" Vlad III Dracula, the circumstances of how and when he became this are forever lost to the fog and vagueries of Konami's writing department.

Those morons.

[sadae]

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.
I did read somewhere a LOOOOONG time ago (don't remember where, unfortunately. I can't find the source anywhere) that if Dracula is pre-maturely revived, he loses his memories of past revivals. This would explain a number of things, like why Dracula's moment of clarity at the end of SotN was pretty much forgotten in later entries (both release-wise and chronologically), or why he could be beaten in the same way so many times.

Yeah, I remember reading that too (and also can't remember where), and yes, it explains a lot. Which is quite sad considering Mathias expected to get back at God and all that, and ended up being a mockery of himself both in power and personality.

Mathias is "most likely but not certainly" Vlad III Dracula, the circumstances of how and when he became this are forever lost to the fog and vagueries of Konami's writing department.
Those morons.

Arghhh their vague history makes me cringe  Whenever I write something (even a little lowsy fanfic) around 70% of my work goes into researching the actual historical context. Architecture, everyday life, concurring political events... and as a fashion history fangirl, all those highly inacurate clothes make me want to cry despite the beauty of Kojima's art. I can't understand how people who actually GET PAID to do that screw up so badly.