Topic: Incorporating Horror in an action game without losing the horror?

[KaZudra]

Let's see some ideas, I mean Castlevania started as a horror themed action platformer, but stray far from that yet kept it on it's sleeve.

I wanna know, will it be possible to incorperate real horror (not jump scares) in a way into a castlevania platformer without losing the horror?

[Flame]

thats a question the horror genre itself needs to rediscover.

Horror in general has lost it's way in the mangle of subgenres and different styles and in the light of cheap horror.

Jump scares, torture porn, and extreme gore have made real horror be forgotten.

Horror does not mean you need to have dismemberment or body horror or jumpscares.

The Shining is one of the most famous horror movies of all time. And yet it has a very small body count. Only 2, if you count Jack Torrence himself. So why is it so revered? Because it is psychological horror. it uses unsettling camera angles, bizzare music, and subtle environmental inconsistencies, (such as impossible architecture) to create an eerie atmosphere.

horror is all about atmosphere, and that is the key imo.

[KaZudra]

It's not just Atmosphere, it's creating the feeling of Dread.

Junji's work is amazing on that.

And oh yes, The Shining is outstanding for placing the feeling of dread, you can basically take the twins scene and show it out of context and still have the same effect in context of the movie.

My Journey is to make something both Atmospheric and pay homage to the masterminds of horror not by replicating their work, but use their philosophy to convey such horror.

[Dracula9]

Less is more, for subtlety is key.

Assumptions and inferences conjured by a mind confronted with incomplete information can yield far more macabre conclusions than bluntness can ever dream to.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

They key to a creepy or scary atmosphere is to leave the player feeling like they are ALMOST in control of the situation. Almost, but not quite. Dead Space 1, 2, and iOS all managed this quite well, giving you all the tools you need to manage yourself and even do very well in combat, but still feel like things are a touch beyond your control. Yes, you're a badass, but you're constantly feeling like it won't be enough.

Compare this to Castlevania. In most games in the series, eventually you're screaming "BRING IT!!" instead of "ohshitohshitohshit", and often that happens very early on in the game, when you lose your scripted helplessness and get all the tools you really need and better weapons than you start with. Lords of Shadow did a lot well, but it strayed the furthest from those creepy horror vibes because you don't even start with scripted helplessness. Gabriel, Simon, and Trevorcard are straight up badasses from moment one; shredding werewolves and other beasties of the night with aplomb doesn't engender a creepy atmosphere. That initial fight in Lords of Shadow 2 before Zobek rescues you is easily the most tense fight of the TRILOGY because Dracula is actually helpless, and that's the feeling a creepy or scary game needs to have ALL THE TIME. No matter how strong you are, you feel just a little bit helpless, like you're out of your league, or that there's something more that you could have done earlier to prepare but backtracking is impossible and you're stuck with the decisions you've made, be they good or bad.

The other half is good art direction and great sound design. Bloodborne was a master at all of this. It had, in my opinion, the ur-example of good creepy art design for a Castlevania game. All that Victorian London Gothic with a heavy sense of undead curses and infinite urban decay cranked up to levels that shouldn't even be possible made for a spooky as hell atmosphere. The relative silence as you navigated the city of Yharnam pounded home a sense of loneliness and isolation that isn't easily duplicated, but should be. The silence was punctuated only by the sounds of the demented citizens and the horrible monsters lurking around the next corner, and worked to build up dread in the player, while the combat music was like the snapping of a rubber band of tension. Visiting the Hunter's Respite felt like a breath of fresh air every time, but no matter how much time you spent in that sanctuary, it didn't save you. You'd have to go back, and you knew it, and you dreaded it.

But Bloodborne wasn't a horror game. It had all the trappings, but it's not a horror game. It's an open world action game, just one with intimidating foes and killer atmosphere.

Were I to make a Castlevania that returned to the themes of horror and fear, that's where I'd start my research.

[Flame]

Bloodborne is most definitely a horror game, you can have both action and horror. Bloodborne is an action game, but let's look at this from another perspective. the Hunter is the archetypal sort of "jack the ripper" figure. You wander around Victorian England at night with a rusty saw blade contraption. Townspeople, who are going insane and turning into monsters, fear you, attacking you in desperation screaming stuff like "oh god!" or the ever famous "AWAY, AWAY!"

you are just as much a boogeyman as the werewolves and abominations you are hunting.

and there's also a sort of inevitability and despair about your place in this world, because from what the game tells you, there really are no hunters anymore. What thought to be a solution, have a force of hunters that go out and hunt monsters at night, have become monsters themselves. Gascoigne, particularly, adds a sense of inevitable doom to you. This sort of "he who hunts monsters..." warning. That so far, almost every Hunter that has come before you, has succumbed to bloodlust and become a monster, and that this is very likely your fate as well.

Also you yourself, all this "badass Hunter" mojo, comes at the price of being unable to die yourself. You are in the thrall of an eldritch entity that wants you to do it's dirty work. So whenever you die, you just reawaken at the last checkpoint.

As for Horror in Castlevania, I dont think it really works well. Castlevania is a horror themed game, but you are never helpless. its more an homage to "cheesy horror" like Hammer films and universal films, while you play as conan the barbarian.

might be neat to actually incorporate some more horror themes into a castlevania game, but at the same time, it cant lose sight of the "badassness" and "unstoppable holy warrior" themes which are somewhat integral to Belmont characters.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

let's look at this from another perspective. the Hunter is the archetypal sort of "jack the ripper" figure. You wander around Victorian England at night with a rusty saw blade contraption. Townspeople, who are going insane and turning into monsters, fear you, attacking you in desperation screaming stuff like "oh god!" or the ever famous "AWAY, AWAY!"

you are just as much a boogeyman as the werewolves and abominations you are hunting.

and there's also a sort of inevitability and despair about your place in this world, because from what the game tells you, there really are no hunters anymore. What thought to be a solution, have a force of hunters that go out and hunt monsters at night, have become monsters themselves. Gascoigne, particularly, adds a sense of inevitable doom to you. This sort of "he who hunts monsters..." warning. That so far, almost every Hunter that has come before you, has succumbed to bloodlust and become a monster, and that this is very likely your fate as well.

Also you yourself, all this "badass Hunter" mojo, comes at the price of being unable to die yourself. You are in the thrall of an eldritch entity that wants you to do it's dirty work. So whenever you die, you just reawaken at the last checkpoint.

This is good observation, but irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is all plot and setting stuff specific to Bloodborne's particular world and story that wouldn't factor into Castlevania without wholesale plagiarism by Konami (or whoever they might outsource a new game to).

[Dracula9]

Uh...hate to be the bearer of bad news but this topic isn't solely about Castlevania. The title says "Incorporating Horror in an action game without losing the horror," so I imagine analyzing perspectives of Bloodborne's horror atmosphere is fully relevant.

That said, I'm inclined to agree with you there, Flame. Especially if we account for "that" ending--wherein your unleash a fathomless horror and become a seemingly-ordained bearer of a new fate. If this means as I describe it, then it's not unlike being the Chosen Undead fated to either save or end existence as the Age of Fire knows it in the Souls series. Those inhabiting the world and know of your purpose there generally fear what the Chosen is capable of doing--rather than fearing the Chosen themselves.

I'd sure be afraid of someone capable of ending the world as I know it, even if they weren't what I would describe as evil.

_______________________________________ ______________

I think, in regard to horror specifically in an action title, the effects of horror depend largely on what kind it is.

Are we talking Lovecraftian-esque horror, whereupon you are absolutely insignificant in the face of beings countless aeons beyond your comprehension? Then the horror elements should center around making the player gradually feel more and more powerless and miniscule.

If it's your more generalized horror, then building a brooding and tense atmosphere is the centerpiece, either by undermining player power or turning progression into a game of having to analyze routes and methods incredibly quickly and under equally incredible duress, much like one would have to do if being chased by a crazed killer in the real world.

Is it psychological horror? Then just look at Eternal Darkness. Case closed. That game does absolutely everything right for its genre.

Et cetera, et cetera. There's no single correct path to convey effective horror, only themes which manage more effectively than others (such as my previous mentioning that subtlety and vagueness can conjure up worse images than what may actually be happening). Beyond that, it only becomes a question of the efficacy and cleverness of the story's wielder.

I mean, John Carpenter turned a goofy-looking dude in a suit into a positively terrifying force of paranoia and hysteria, while keeping thematic elements pretty much intact. So it really just goes to show horror is only as effective as its master wills it to be.

[Ratty]

Horror is about feeling helpless.
Action is about feeling empowered.
People have struggled to reconcile the two for a long time, and not just in video games. Take "Alien" and its first sequel "Aliens", while Alien is clearly a horror movie, AlienS is usually considered an action film. As is Predator. The reason is the people fighting never feel quite helpless. It's the same in Castlevania, has been since Castlevania 1. So if you wanted straight horror you have to give up one or the other of these foundational elements of the series. Either make the protagonist less powerful (bad imo, makes it into survival horror which is difficult to work in a melee based game) or make the challenges even more difficult, which might be less scary & more frustrating. Dungeons & Dragons made undead more frightening by giving them the ability to drain experience/levels from your characters, but I think this would just be incredibly frustrating in an entirely undead-focused game like Castlevania. And could only apply to the more Metroidvania style rather than Classicvania games anyway.

All that said, "competent/trained protagonists vs. monsters" is one of my favorite sub-genres, whether you consider it part of the horror or action genre. Check out "Dog Soliders" for how to do this right, or "REC 2" to see how to do it wrong. (The SWAT team in REC 2 act just like regular untrained idiot horror movie civilians, negating the point of them being a SWAT team in the first place.) And I like Castlevania the way it is, firmly in this niche. You get to enjoy all the beautiful Gothic horror ambiance without being nervous.

PS- Look at the Resident Evil series. In Resident Evil 2 Leon is a rookie cop thrown into an unexpected situation. In Resident Evil 4, when the series became more action oriented, Leon is experienced with this sort of thing and knows he's heading into danger.

[JR]

The Shining is one of the most famous horror movies of all time. And yet it has a very small body count. Only 2, if you count Jack Torrence himself. So why is it so revered? Because it is psychological horror. it uses unsettling camera angles, bizzare music, and subtle environmental inconsistencies, (such as impossible architecture) to create an eerie atmosphere.

This. The Shining is easily my favorite horror movie ever, pretty much for the reasons described in this thread.

That's what made me really like the X68000 game's castle. The fetuses, the outdoor landscape that was actually a crumbling canvas, the writhing bodies in the picture frame...it was definitely no Shining, but I liked where they were going. I would love to see more of the unsettling, creepy atmosphere from the series...not so much about what they're building towards, but the buildup in itself. Something that could evoke a sense of dread. Like many others, jump scares do nothing for me. I want a game that makes me seriously consider turning the lights back on while I'm playing it, and only a good sense of dread can do that for me.

[Mooning Freddy]

It's hard to place significant action in a horror setting and still make it very scary.

The Silent Hill series had a balance between action and horror, and it did it in an original way: the characters in Silent Hill were usually very "clunky". The characters' movements were often hard to control; and aim, when you had a gun, was difficult (especially in the original game). That's a bit of what survival horror is all about - the characters are ordinary people, not fighters; thus, it makes sense that their aim is horrible, it takes them way too long to attack with a melee weapon or recharge a gun, they run slowly and get tired quickly, etc.
That's what horror is all about - feeling weak and helpless.

[e105beta]

I think Bloodborne is the perfect example of this. When I play Bloodborne, I'm nervous as shit. The atmosphere is creepy, the enemies are scary looking, and the risk of death is always present, but I'm empowered in the sense that I can kill all of it if I play right.

[chainsawmidget]

I actually think the 64 game had the best horror elements. 

You never felt powerful in that game.  On top of that, your allies couldn't exactly be trusted.  Malus, Renon, Charlie Vincent, Rosa, none of these were characters that you ever felt you could fully trust, but they were all you had. 

Likewise, the fact that the levels often felt livable just made the horror aspects stand out more. 

[e105beta]

I actually think the 64 game had the best horror elements. 

You never felt powerful in that game.  On top of that, your allies couldn't exactly be trusted.  Malus, Renon, Charlie Vincent, Rosa, none of these were characters that you ever felt you could fully trust, but they were all you had. 

Likewise, the fact that the levels often felt livable just made the horror aspects stand out more.

I agree. I'm not a huge fan of the game, but it was a creepy game when I was a kid.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

I actually think the 64 game had the best horror elements. 

You never felt powerful in that game.  On top of that, your allies couldn't exactly be trusted.  Malus, Renon, Charlie Vincent, Rosa, none of these were characters that you ever felt you could fully trust, but they were all you had. 

Likewise, the fact that the levels often felt livable just made the horror aspects stand out more.

Yea I was going to bring that up earlier, suprised no one has brought up the 64/Legacy of Darkness castlevania games considering it very much had horror elements within it, the mansion part of the game with how your introduced to vampirism and the aspect of being turned into one, the maze and getting chased by the maniac gardener and having no way to bring the guy down for good and having to worry about him closing in on you while you try to find a way out, the whole renon thing, the atmosphere itself always felt foreboding and even though you could defend yourself you never truly felt completely safe in it, I still remember being a bit scared while playing those games in my childhood lol.