Topic: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches

[Abnormal Freak]

Personally I find most of the phallic/yonic readings into horror movies fucking absurd and faux-intellectual bullshit.

[Ratty]

It's not that I care if somebody says that my tastes and worldviews (which don't often match up; honestly, "what you enjoy is an extension of yourself" doesn't ring true) are "bad" or what have you, it's that a person like Sarkeesian usually doesn't bring this kind of attention to something without a grander scheme of wanting to do away with such a thing. She obviously hates the portrayal of women in video games and wishes for change. It's not a challenge of one's desires that gets people's feathers riled up; it's a threat that perhaps someday, certain things will be deemed inappropriate and not allowed in the art medium of video games, which will get pummeled considering its relatively young age and its perception as children's entertainment first and foremost, and because weak-minded people are too eager to follow along with such a crusade.

And I'm saying that art should be allowed to exist without pressure (or worse, LAW, should it ever get that far--and we know all too well that there are many politicians who'd like to regulate video games) to steer it a certain way and dumb it down because a group of folks don't like boobies in video games. If all they wanna do is try to encourage developers to create more strong female leads, I'm cool with that, but what I've seen of Sarkeesian, she comes across as very damning.

Well, I can't speak for her but since she is apparently a sex-negative feminist you may be pretty close there. Personally I abhor censorship and think it's never the solution, it just makes some people feel better while actually making the problem worse. This goes for games, movies, anything. Let's use porn as a good and well-worn example - While some people who call themselves feminists want to censor porn and state absurd ties to it and increased violence against women as fact without any proof, I'm a more "sex-positive" feminist. Rape porn, like all porn, only exists because there's a market for it, you won't understand why that kink/market exists if you just ban it. And if you outlaw it it will only drive the market underground and deregulate it, making it more likely that *actual* rapes might occur in production. While also adding the allure of the forbidden to people who might otherwise not care. As long as no one is being hurt or taken advantage of (which some sex-negative feminists will stupidly claim always happens with porn) the answer is not to repress but to explore, understand and even celebrate one's sexual urges. Because they're a part of human biology that isn't going to go away, and needs to be respected and understood. This applies to other less primal urges and artistic expressions as well.

I'd like to note again (Since I'm not sure if I did or did clearly before, I've made way more responses to this thread than I had imagined I would before the second video lol) I'm not trying to defend Sarkeesian's opinions themselves so much as the right she like anyone has to state them, and the worthiness of video games for serious critical analysis.
My girlfriend, who is a much better and much bigger gamer than I (she's actually the one who got me into gaming) listed a lot of complaints she had with Sarkeesian's analysis yesterday that had never occurred to me in my acceptance of the first video as shallow. Unfortunately she did this when I was too sleepy to make another post XD since she doesn't have an account here but I find her points to be very valid I'll lay them out in her own words below.

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Valerie's Critiques of Tropes Vs. Women in Video Games #1

To start with, personally I think the kickstarter was unnecessary since her first video is barely passable as a sophomore thesis. Moviebob did a far better job discussing female characters in video games. And he did it because he felt like it, not because he had 160k worth of motivation.

(EDIT: I had forgotten about this video until I saw imbedded in AB's link below, I think this might be the one Valerie was thinking of.)
Game OverThinker V2
The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob
That's my biggest issue with the series, she did not need 160K to produce what she did.

She has thus far failed to cover the full spectrum of video games and the ones she covered seem to suggest that she did not do the prerequisite research.
I mean come on, nintendo games have been discussed in depth and analyzed to hell and back, there is nothing she could say that could possibly add to it.
A majority of this first video is making up a definition to stack the argument in her favour and then heaping negative connotations on said definition. Which I find to be pretty dishonest. She mentioned the original Donkey Kong game to be inspired by King Kong and tries to extend this to include all Mario games when it is very obvious that most Mario games from Super Mario Bros onward are very much based on Japanese folklore.

She talks about how the damsel in distress trope is an easy narrative tool dating back to ancient times and yet fails to talk about how it relates to the hero’s journey in the monomyth theory. I find it funny how she completely failed to mention stories like Joan of Arc or Esther from the Christian old testament
or ...Xena warrior princess surprisingly enough.

And then there's Borderlands and its sequel, where Sirens have a messianic quality to them, possessing arcane powers, and built up to have the ability to decide the fate of a planet. And Sirens can only be female. But even just talking about Nintendo (in which case it should have been Tropes vs. Women in Nintendo Games) she conveniently forgets to mention Samus Aran who does not fit into her definition.

And the way she tries to spin the whole Dinosaur Planet into Starfox Adventures thing is very specious. Nintendo moved to merge the idea with the Starfox universe because it was most likely safer to use the Starfox brand. New IPs were a very difficult thing to make successful even then. As for Krystal being trapped in a crystal, there has to be some method of introducing the character without her stealing the show from Fox McCloud. I noticed she objected to the decision to make Krystal more appealing in design from the original concept. She did so simply by saying in essence "sexy = pandering to male desires = objectification" this, is of course, is ignoring the fact that Krystal's original design really looked out of place as she seemed to be cut out of an early disney's inkblot style cartoon. And there are very few people who find that kind of character design appealing (In terms of "Buy me!" attention grabbers) anymore.

To add insult to injury, she disabled comments in the youtube video, mentioning that people are free to mirror and discuss the video elsewhere. Which tells me that she's afraid of having to read valid scrutiny being thrown at her work. Because if she tries to play it off as just another hater, or tries to censor it, you can bet your ass that there are many people willing to snapshot that shit.

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Also found a lot of valid criticisms in this tumblr post
http://diarrheaworldstarhiphop.tumblr.com/post/44889478674/she-makes-good-points-and-is-right-in-her-analysis

Fools and their kickstarter donation money I guess. Again, glad that this is causing discussion and debate, but she's not the ideal person to generate it.

[Gunlord]

Your girlfriend is intelligent (and assumedly beautiful) ratty-sama

[TheouAegis]

Personally I find most of the phallic/yonic readings into horror movies fucking absurd and faux-intellectual bullshit.

Arguing that Aliens is vaginophobic is bullshit, I agree; but the horror series really is sexual in nature. The Xenomorphs were initially phallic beings. The adult Xenomorph's head, maw, and -- to an extent -- tail were all phallic in nature and intent (H.G. Giger's artwork). Aside from the Queen, the only aspect of them that was feminine was the chestburster stage, and that I think had less to do with vaginophobia and more to do with "What the fuck is this thing growing inside of me?!?!"

[Laina]

Anyone else find it a little funny that no actual ladies have weighed in on this yet? I mean, I've just been posting explanations if yaeba & 2 videos that were medium grade relevant to the core topic.

I have opinions on it, sure, but to be perfectly honest I just don't feel like taking the time to organize & type them all out here on a smartphone (laptop isn't accessible at the moment). In a nutshell though, I agree that Sarkeesian isn't the authority on this that she'd like us & herself to believe she is. As Ratty's gf said, why would you make college sophomore thesis grade video if you had close to $160,000 under your belt? I know it's gonna be a series, but damn-you holding out for celebrity cameos or something? The material's been done to death too. Oh, and she actually flubbed up by making some claims & critiques about Bayonetta before fully understanding the game-needless to say, that video got pulled without much of a peep.

She's absolutely entitled to speak her mind & I'd defend that right with everything in me, for anyone who was being threatened with censorship & silence. I have that same right however & I'm using it to say that I don't care for Ms. Sarkeesian & her ways. Of course I'm not denying that she's made a few points-but that doesn't mean I can't use what little brains I've been blessed with to pick through her material & call attention to what I find doesn't quite add up.

[Abnormal Freak]

Arguing that Aliens is vaginophobic is bullshit, I agree; but the horror series really is sexual in nature. The Xenomorphs were initially phallic beings. The adult Xenomorph's head, maw, and -- to an extent -- tail were all phallic in nature and intent (H.G. Giger's artwork). Aside from the Queen, the only aspect of them that was feminine was the chestburster stage, and that I think had less to do with vaginophobia and more to do with "What the fuck is this thing growing inside of me?!?!"

Well, yeah, Giger's a glorious loon, but how many artists working in horror movies have that kind of vision? I'm expressing dislike mostly for how the no-no parts critique applies to slasher films: knife is a penis, virginal survival girl empowers herself with the penis in the end, blah blah blah bullshit. That explanation only works in Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon because it's a smart comedy, faux-documentary bent on deconstructing the slasher formula.

[Neobelmont]

Wait a minute a knife is a penis I do not get the connection because if it is that's one heck of a short one.

[Abnormal Freak]

Something akin to a butcher's knife, mostly.

I'm sure there's some crap someone's thought up about the kitchen knife as a home appliance and that's somehow related to women in these movies as well.

[Neobelmont]

Something akin to a butcher's knife, mostly.

I'm sure there's some crap someone's thought up about the kitchen knife as a home appliance and that's somehow related to women in these movies as well.

And this is where I cannot for the life of me, see a connection. I just cannot.

[Ratty]

Your girlfriend is intelligent (and assumedly beautiful) ratty-sama

Yes she is both of those things :3. I'm a very lucky man <3.

Well, yeah, Giger's a glorious loon, but how many artists working in horror movies have that kind of vision? I'm expressing dislike mostly for how the no-no parts critique applies to slasher films: knife is a penis, virginal survival girl empowers herself with the penis in the end, blah blah blah bullshit. That explanation only works in Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon because it's a smart comedy, faux-documentary bent on deconstructing the slasher formula.

It's kind of hard to argue sex isn't a part of it though. Especially when in slasher movies after a woman shows her breasts/has sex she's usually killed soon if not immediately afterward. Sure the real-world explanation for this is probably director/producers not wanting to pay the actress for a longer shoot after she's "filled her primary purpose" of titillating the audience. But how about some specific examples -

Norman Bates killed women to whom he was sexually attracted out of a weird guilt complex over his dead mother, and the slashers who followed him took similar courses. Micheal Myers kills his sister after she has sex and is still topless. Decades later going on a rampage primarily targeting promiscuous teenagers. Jason drowned as a result of inattentive promiscuous teenagers and as a result follows in his mothers footsteps to kill same. And it's been about a decade since I've seen a Nightmare on Elmstreet movie but if I recall he was at least an implied molester as well as murderer before and after his death. Whether you buy the specific example of giant-knife-as-penis metaphor or not, these iconic characters and many of their imitators are literally products of sexual dysfunction.

This phenomena has been recognized by the horror film community itself for decades. Long time horror and drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs (real name John Bloom) codified it as the second of the "3 B's" of B-movies in his drive-in oath of "Blood, Breasts and Beasts" and listed it in his satirical essential rules to make a horror movie list of cliches.

Anyone else find it a little funny that no actual ladies have weighed in on this yet? I mean, I've just been posting explanations if yaeba & 2 videos that were medium grade relevant to the core topic.

I have opinions on it, sure, but to be perfectly honest I just don't feel like taking the time to organize & type them all out here on a smartphone (laptop isn't accessible at the moment). In a nutshell though, I agree that Sarkeesian isn't the authority on this that she'd like us & herself to believe she is. As Ratty's gf said, why would you make college sophomore thesis grade video if you had close to $160,000 under your belt? I know it's gonna be a series, but damn-you holding out for celebrity cameos or something? The material's been done to death too. Oh, and she actually flubbed up by making some claims & critiques about Bayonetta before fully understanding the game-needless to say, that video got pulled without much of a peep.

She's absolutely entitled to speak her mind & I'd defend that right with everything in me, for anyone who was being threatened with censorship & silence. I have that same right however & I'm using it to say that I don't care for Ms. Sarkeesian & her ways. Of course I'm not denying that she's made a few points-but that doesn't mean I can't use what little brains I've been blessed with to pick through her material & call attention to what I find doesn't quite add up.

Good point, I guess that just highlights how small the female population on this board is.

[Neobelmont]

It's kind of hard to argue sex isn't a part of it though. Especially when in slasher movies after a woman shows her breasts/has sex she's usually killed soon if not immediately afterward. Sure the real-world explanation for this is probably director/producers not wanting to pay the actress for a longer shoot after she's "filled her primary purpose" of titillating the audience. But how about some specific examples -

Norman Bates killed women to whom he was sexually attracted out of a weird guilt complex over his dead mother, and the slashers who followed him took similar courses. Micheal Myers kills his sister after she has sex and is still topless. Decades later going on a rampage primarily targeting promiscuous teenagers. Jason drowned as a result of inattentive promiscuous teenagers and as a result follows in his mothers footsteps to kill same. And it's been about a decade since I've seen a Nightmare on Elmstreet movie but if I recall he was at least an implied molester as well as murderer before and after his death. Whether you buy the specific example of giant-knife-as-penis metaphor or not, these iconic characters and many of their imitators are literally products of sexual dysfunction.

This phenomena has been recognized by the horror film community itself for decades. Long time horror and drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs (real name John Bloom) codified it as the second of the "3 B's" of B-movies in his drive-in oath of "Blood, Breasts and Beasts" and listed it in his satirical essential rules to make a horror movie list of cliches.

This get's boring after awhile you kind of know what's going to happen hence the cliches and stuff but there has to be one where it completely turns the whole perceived notion of how a horror movie should be at least in our generation but I doubt it or maybe there are independent horror films maybe psychological ?

Not the biggest horror fan in the world which is very odd seeing as how my pops watches channels like sci-fi and chiller. 

[Mooning Freddy]

Movie Bob's remark about male video game characters depicted as extremely muscular to attract male audience is a good point.
The fact is that women are probably not all attracted to big men- but man are. It's all an ego thing. Bodybuilding is a very masculine sport- while probably few women are attracted to men who are incredibly, almost frightfully muscular, most men would be jealous of them. Why? Because that's how men think they should look. It has nothing to do with what women think about it.  The real bodybuilders would tell you that: they don't do it for the women, they do it because it makes them feel good about themselves.   

[Lelygax]

Good point, I guess that just highlights how small the female population on this board is.

Maybe if you guys stops talking about vaginas and penises it can change... >.>

[Ratty]

This get's boring after awhile you kind of know what's going to happen hence the cliches and stuff but there has to be one where it completely turns the whole perceived notion of how a horror movie should be at least in our generation but I doubt it or maybe there are independent horror films maybe psychological ?

Not the biggest horror fan in the world which is very odd seeing as how my pops watches channels like sci-fi and chiller.

Oh the horror genre is a very diverse one, but the "promiscuous girls get killed" and "lone, usually virginal female survivor" tropes are big in the slasher sub-genre. Especially in the 80s when that sub-genre was hugely popular. The formula got mixed up a little during the short, awful self-aware slasher revival of the 90s that followed the success of "Scream" but it's usually fairly rigid. Something "Scream" itself commented on in a "ironically pointing it out" 90s kind of way.

I'd like to step in and say that I love horror movies and have since I was a little kid. Though mostly I like old monster movies rather than more recent gore-fests that's a matter of personal taste. Horror films are a great cathartic outlet and way to explore social boundaries, and sometimes you just wanna see a guy in a monster suite. I'm not trying to condemn the genre/films (or their fans) here, just to examine them and the messages they send.

Maybe if you guys stops talking about vaginas and penises it can change... >.>

Eh I don't think this particular topic is turning away too many women Lely ;P

[Abnormal Freak]

Maybe if you guys stops talking about vaginas and penises it can change... >.>

Nebar!!!!

And Ratty, sex is definitely ingrained in the horror film (to the point where I ask, "Why?" My favorite horror movie, Carpenter's The Thing, has none of that stuff—unless... oh no... Has someone thought up such an explanation???); I just don't think the very specific phallic imagery and such is very convincing. Promiscuous teens killed in slashers, though, sure.




Also, thought I'd post this follow-up to the blog post I linked earlier:

www.kentaiblog.com/2013/03/no-comment-sarkeesian.html