Topic: My Return and another LoS topic.

[Valtiel]

Yeah, you're pretty condescending too.  You are the only two I've noticed that go out of their way to show how smart you are and bring up insanely boring near-essay length critiques of other people's opinions.  You guys go overkill when there is no need to.

I see. I'd point out that playing on the "home team" I would cut myself some slack for that - you can't walk into a Real Madrid club and yell "Mourinho is overrated!" and then complain that people were equally rude in disagreeing with you.

And for the length of the messages - I only write when I feel like I got something to say. Call it a reaction to the Internet "no u" rethorics. I could type "lol you're wrong" or post gifs like 75% of the web population, if you prefer. Point being, to me it's a form of respect. If you state you hate LoS and I quote you and say "You're wrong", I'll naturally assume that A) I've added nothing to the discussion and B) you positively don't give a damn about what a guy you never met thinks.
If I explain why I disagree with you, I give you the chance to explain your opinion and eventually persuade me of its worth.

[CristopherLee]

I want to say something about IGA's characters:

They are ALL pretty stupid for me. No pun intended, seriously, but I'm surprise nobody is commenting it. I really want to "love" or "hate" that people. But i can't. Because the dialogue, the decisions they make, the actions they take... I'm agree with you that Rinaldo is quite interesting. But, Leon? He is like a rocker-teen without a school degree. I'm surprise he don't get killed in any medieval war before. The poor girl don't have any development. Walter is a bad James Bond villain without charisma. Mathias' "master plan" is quite childish (and based in some kind of "dungeons & dragons" artifact in which, frankly, I don't care) and NOBODY discovers it. Even Death Itself seems to be a brainless goon. I don't want to be disrespectful with you, guys, but this is the way I feel that story.

I will not talk about Gabriel and Zobek here. I like LoS story much more, but my "points" require a lot of development, so forget the new game exists. I'm only talking about fictional characters that, in my sincere opinion... are idiots.

And I'm sorry my retoric is not as great as Valtiel.

[thernz]

I am not sure how Gabriel or Zobek are any better by the decisions and actions they make.

[RichterB]

WARNING: I have written wayyyy too much here.
Valtiel, I think we have a general understanding of where we're both coming from on this now. (And, sorry, I couldn't help but feel you were aiming at me with the LoI quote and such). Regardless, I'm just going to clarify a few things based on what you said...

LoI was incredibly plain, moving from A to B and throwing the Dracula bomb like it was an afterthought. A lot of people complain that LoS pulls in Dracula at the very end; was LoI any different? You spend most of the game dealing with characters that got basically nothing to do with CV, and then you get the entire saga set up in 3 minutes.

For me, I think what was different was that it was weaving a story around the mythology of vampires from the start. Vampires weren't just an area/idea that you happened to pass through at the midpoint as in LoS. Yes, Dracula was only an end result in LoI, but characters like Walter and Joachim, and the mention of Rinaldo's turned daughter, were teases that led into Dracula, making that vampire theme pretty strong throughout. And while it was an A to B affair, it surrounded itself with the centralized motif of a castle with distinct link points to future Castlevanias, such as CV1 through the inclusion of Medusa (in head form).

The castle in LoS wasn't in the climax, neither were vampires. And even after all the trouble the player goes through, the Dracula reveal isn't necessarily a direct result of the game, as the timeline fast-forwards into modern times. With LoS, the globetrotting seemed more forced than the "Walter's game" structure of LoI, because Gabe was seemingly going to all sorts of random spots where characters would be introduced and quickly die/disappear without playing much of a role (IE: Baba). While I love Castlevania-style globetrotting (IV, III, Bloodlines), this felt like it went to too many places outside of Castlevania, such as Lord of the Rings and Rygar, just for the sake of doing so. I know they were trying to break ground, but some franchises, to keep a focus, have to set boundaries. (But even IGA has been known to go too far, so he doesn't get a pass, either. I think this is more pronounced, though, because of how Cox promised a throwback to pre-IGA games that would get to the heart of Castlevania, and outside of the "whip," this seemed to tiptoe around that and mostly do lip-service).

LoS isn't an origins story. It's the prequel to an origins story. How does Gabe become Drac? Why do the Belmonts hunt him? How does Death come in the equation? It's all there to be written. LoS merely introduced us to the characters.
And while everything in fantasy narration can be by now defined "clichèd" (literally), LoS' story definitely felt fresher to me, expecially in the CV context. Satan may be a clichè, but it's not a CV clichè. The masks plot is definitely better played out that the LoI stones, and with a decent amount of mystery left up for future games.

I'm not so sure it isn't mostly cut and dry. They show the Devil Mask behind Gabriel as he is in a fit of grief, and he just tried out the God Mask and saw that he could see/kiss Marie. The way they end with the Devil Mask in plain sight as the focus, I have to imagine he makes the same mistake as Zobek, but for different reasons, and puts on the Devil Mask. It corrupts him into Dracula. (Otherwise, maybe it has something to do with the leftover Laura character). If it plays off of anything in the story we were given, it doesn't seem as open ended as I've heard people say. And who is Death? The ending seemed to suggest that it is Zobek. He said he can grant Gabe what he wants if he helps him out. And at this point, I think Gabe wants death, to free him of his false, cursed life. And my biggest issue with the whole inclusion of the Devil is that it trumps Dracula. The series is no longer about "fill-in-the-blank" versus Dracula. I think that this whole direct battle with the Devil is too grand (and corny) a physical fight for the heroes. And you lose some personality and creative freedom in the mix if its just about the supreme evil. It seems ridiculous to me. (We're kind of going from spooky-yet-fun adventure to gloom-and-doom-End of the World battle). But maybe that's just me.

LoS' story is not groundbreaking in any way, but I'm strongly persuaded it is in context with CV; expecially with the recent trend of CV games who have been focusing on exploring, explaining (and justifying themselves on) tiny plot details without moving the story of one inch - Sorrows aside, sadly.

At the end of the day, as a matter of opinion, I just found LoI to connect on an emotional level better than LoS. Leon's personal journey, from skilled knight but naive vampire/monster-hunter concerned about and sacrificing for his own interests, to driven vampire-hunter determined to free the world from darkness to be more satisfying than Gabe's tragic journey that alternates between lovelorn rage and sad self-pity. Even if the latter is supposed to be a setup for a Dracula origins story, the whole thing seems superfluous in execution. And I'm not sure I'm liking the "I'm actually heroic" Dracula they're setting up. We'll have to wait and see, but I'm not too excited at this point.

Last thing I want to say about story: I actually don't need a super-deep or convoluted story for Castlevania. It just has to match the world and match the gameplay. My favorite Castlevania stories are probably CV64/LoD, LoI, and AoS. The latter two I liked because they took a different approach and had some nice twists (for their time) while still fitting the genre. But the first, CV64/LoD, is the one I really want to address in relation to my initial comment. The story basically fits hand and hand with the game as it develops, without being intrusive, and it just fits Castlevania so well. The way a character like Rosa, Vincent, Malice, Henry, Actrise, etc subtly make their impact as you run across them feel much more natural than most Castlevanias.

When I think about it, the best approach to a Castlevania restart would have been a Belmont's first journey to (and through) Dracula's Castle without any detailed exposition that tries to justify how Dracula came to be. The exposition could be done ala CV64 by the people you meet along the path to Dracula's Castle or in the castle itself. That's the real "back-to-basics" approach that might have gotten more people, ala how Street Fighter 4 was a huge success by gathering those people who left from III and Alpha and such by playing to the main idea of the series when it was popular (IE: SFII).

Well, that's all I've got. Just to clarify, I thought LoS was beautiful, enjoyable effort, but married itself too much to the market of modern action games to its detriment of potential and its setting/story felt disingenuous/misguided to the idea of restarting the series with the original series (say, 1-4) in mind as a starting point as Cox said the basic idea was. (Yes, they also said forget everything...but they also said that everything could be traced back to Castlevania and that 1 or 4 were the main reference points...and really, to forget everything kind of raises the question, "why do a Castlevania at all then?) I have written too much here and I digress.

[CristopherLee]

When I think about it, the best approach to a Castlevania restart would have been a Belmont's first journey to (and through) Dracula's Castle without any detailed exposition that tries to justify how Dracula came to be. The exposition could be done ala CV64 by the people you meet along the path to Dracula's Castle or in the castle itself. That's the real "back-to-basics" approach that might have gotten more people...

I'm not agree with all your opinions but, actually, THIS is the same way i think. Forget all that prequels and origin stories for Drac's sake! I only want a bad-ass hero against a bad-ass villain!!

I liked LoS but it would be far better with less "Drama" and more "Old-school adventure".

[Ahasverus]

I'm not agree with all your opinions but, actually, THIS is the same way i think. Forget all that prequels and origin stories for Drac's sake! I only want a bad-ass hero against a bad-ass villain!!

I liked LoS but it would be far better with less "Drama" and more "Old-school adventure".

Better for you, thanks.

[SIRHardle]

¬¬'

LOI's story is better presented than LOS'. You don't need to create a mess of unexplained events, conflicting narrative and underdeveloped characters to create an "epic story that will only be told within many uncertain games". A game can be its own entity without resorting to such things (like POP trilogy and unlike the new POP game which was made with a new trilogy in mind but now AC is almost overshadowing it).

And Leon is much more of a solid protagonist than Gabriel. Gabriel is probably the most bland character I've encounter in a CV, yup even back when they couldn't talk they had more appeal... incidentally my favorite sound in LOS is jump up and hold square (gruuunt!) Argh LOS, WHY!?

What's sadder is that a lil bit of common sense and a lil less pride would've probably made LOS into a much solid first entry in this so called new era of CV.

[Alutwon]

And Leon is much more of a solid protagonist than Gabriel. Gabriel is probably the most bland character I've encounter in a CV, yup even back when they couldn't talk they had more appeal... incidentally my favorite sound in LOS is jump up and hold square (gruuunt!) Argh LOS, WHY!?

Gabriel seems like most of the other Belmont's to me. After all, pre Iga they were all silent protagonists who want to save there girlfriends. I thinks it's an interesting take on a Belmont, it's almost like let's see what happens if this one doesn't save the day completely. As far as blandest character for me it's either Soma or Shanoa. One is a saturday morning anime character (the good-natured teenager who has a special power and through the course of the anime, and with some help from his friends seeks to uncovers its mysteries) and the other acts like the old strong and silent heroes of CV but fails miserably (and she lacks a strut).

[Ahasverus]

LOI's story is better presented than LOS'.

lol wut?
Fanboy reasoning, with as much sense as Inception in LSD.

[thernz]

On the other hand, LoS's presentation caused the story to experience a lot of excess. Because of the necessary narration between stages, you find out that there is a lot of derailment regarding the story. Malphas is basically unrelated to the plot besides being a random barrier to Pan, Claudia is basically useless since the whole dark side foreshadowing of Gabriel was already shown in Pan's Forest and having her role just be there to agitate the Dark Knight for it and Gabriel to fight is clunky at best, Dorin was just for a upgrade that's not even needed to be used on Carmilla, Laura's own role makes for a rather plain and boring midpoint conflict because of how sudden her second cutscene is. Baba is just a fetch quest (keys) for a fetch quest (rose), albeit she serves the very minute role of dropping the line, THE KING OF ANGELS, but Cornell was more blunt and even said SATAN so it was redundant. At least in Baba's case, it actually linked to a foreshadowing that Satan was somewhat involved in the events of the game. I also love how Pan is essentially a plot device to move the game forward. LoS's events are much too pushed by "fate." Pan's blood just so happens to open the gate to the abyss. Olrox's blood just so happens to open the door to the keep.

It's a bit odd too because a lot of Gabriel's character development is mainly just mentioned in the narrative and not shown in his actions which are for the most part, relatively unchanged. Claudia's death really seems to have had little impact on how he acted. His "I've done questionable things" and "WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOR" are the only lines that he himself has to support that development while everyone else just calls him names and bloat how they and him are not so different. But you know, he just says things and never does anything different or even hesitates. You could say that this is just a hint at how strong his bloodlust is, but that just undermines the development then. You could link his supposed lust for bloodshed to how often he kills in gameplay, but that's completely undermined by how he's forced to in the gameplay as well as the story by good characters like Claudia and Pan. You can't really effectively do any sort of gray morality in a game that limits choice. It just feels like forced edginess. The story itself just makes it feel like unnecessary edginess.

You could say that LoS's presentation was lot more developed but it honestly just caused more problems than anything else. And it's even more disappointing because of all the missing details in its story. Zobek narrates the Dark Knight had been protecting Claudia for centuries but it never explains how Claudia has lived for centuries. Zobek then mentions Carmilla feeding on Frankenstein for centuries but that makes little sense either. The origin of the masks could have been elaborated on too since apparently, they hold a power greater than Satan's. It's interesting how they could have gotten into the possession of the Brotherhood founders.

I guess you could say LoI was better structured, or at least leaner. Succubus tied into Rinaldo's past and developed his character. Medusa gave hints toward Leon's proficiency. Joachim had a little foreshadowing with Matthias being a fog. Not the best way to go around doing it, but it was a lot less redundant than LoS. I feel that the running about is better justified by the vampire playing a little game in his castle rather than LoS's gotta go find those upgrades or get strung along by Pan's deus ex machinas. Not really a fan of having the storyline dictate when subweapons will appear. On the other hand, LoI's very disjointed because of how cutscenes are optional and how the areas are all available at once, limiting the chance at a more coherent cohesive narrative. On the bright side, it never really negatively affects the narrative since all those embellishments could be told in any order. LoI itself is just a plain inoffensive story though with only Rinaldo to spark it up depth-wise.


One thing that has been bugging me about LoS is that Zobek said that the village was slaughtered when Gabriel first goes to Wygol Village. There's hints beforehand that Zobek is lying and that's fine. But then after the whole, "Let's get Dorin killed for Holy Water" ruse, they meet a child villager who remarks only then that village is under attack. Gabriel does not question this lapse in Zobek's trustworthiness at all. Uh.

Also, I don't get why Gabriel had to kill Marie. I mean, Zobek could've killed Marie just fine. It would have not altered the plot much at all. At the very least, it gives reason for Claudia to be killed as a sort of mirroring to Gabriel's murder of Marie, but that's really not much of an improvement when it causes a logical lapse on the part of Marie. Gabriel killing Marie just adds complications of why she was such a jerk to not tell him that he killed her. Instead, she strings him along a plot that threatens to bring all power to Zobek- actually Satan. Both her and Pan's motives are rather shaky atm, but I guess the sequel would clear that up. Can't wait for the sequel to the prequel to the origin story!

[Nagumo]

The dubble twist of who the real antagonist was also very unneccessary and further emphasised how clunky the writing was in some places.

One other thing that has been bothering me is that the game relies too much on plot convencience like Thernz pointed out. You have all   these situations, like a door that needs to be opened with Brauner's blood, that have no impact on the plot at all, while one the most vital scenes in the entire game, Marie's murder, was a staged event, even though it would have so much better if in only that instance there was a matter of "destiny" involved, and this made the story just come off as extra dumb, lol.                       

[CristopherLee]

I guess you could say LoI was better structured, or at least leaner. Succubus tied into Rinaldo's past and developed his character. Medusa gave hints toward Leon's proficiency. Joachim had a little foreshadowing with Matthias being a fog. Not the best way to go around doing it, but it was a lot less redundant than LoS.

Well, I can't be more disagree. It is so obvious for me than LoS story is BY FAR superior than "that other game" that I really don't understand why I must explain it...

About the characters: Zobek have charisma. Walter have none. Both are the "second msot improtant villain" of its game. One of them both an ally and the msot deadly enemie, while the other one is of the worst bad guys ever seen on a videogame. Even if the "plot twist" and the end was easy to foretell it have no possible comparison with the LAME LoI ending.

About the video: forget the graphics. I'm talking about the quality of the shots and editing. LoI looks cheap. It is not "metal gear solid", folks... every scene looks like if it was improvised.

About the dialogue: It is redundant. Yes, much more than the dialogue in LoS. Leon is ALWAYS making stupid questions. Most than a half of his dialogue is an stupid question. And the one-liners are not very impressive. Actually, "I will kill you AND the night!" sounds pretty ridiculous.

And Leon is much more of a solid protagonist than Gabriel. Gabriel is probably the most bland character I've encounter in a CV, yup even back when they couldn't talk they had more appeal...

Are you kidding me? Gabriel is the most intriguing Castlevania character ever. He have strong motivations, a mysterious origin, determination, incredible fighting skill not based on "anime" super-powers, some revealing introspection moments and a tragic destiny.

And about the ending: when an entire saga of vampire killers are descendants of the Original Evil, the whole quest is about redemption. Generation after generation the Belmonts are doomed to fight Dracula, triying to purge his own blood. THAT'S interesting. Now, with LoI... a very stupid guy is cheated by his best friend. It is a personal quest, not a generational drama. The sons of the sons of the very stupid guy have, actually, NO REASON to fight Dracula.

In my opinion the best CV games are, in that order:

-Super Castlevania IV
-Rondo of Blood
-Lords of shadow

I always prefer plain pulp adventure over extremely dramatic storylines. But Lords of Shadows is the only Castlevania Game at this point that really have something to tale.

[Ahasverus]

The problem with LoS is that some people finally realised how bad Cv writing was before, not that now it's Citizen kane but it's on the right track.
We knew Cv was cheesy, we knew it and didn't want to hide, we accepted it, I did, I wanted a more serious approach but I was FINE with it because the games were good and the bstory was simple and intriguing enough for fans to create a kinda deeper meta-story, that's what we did for years, wondering how the Polktergeist King came related with Trevor or imagining the transformation of Mathias even mourning the tragic unseen death of Richter and more, actually CV story is much much simpler than how we think it is, we just connect things to not making it too "unloose", believe when I say, IGA doesn't think "Oh this Juste Belmont, what a tragic character, let's make his psychologic sorrow to be visible in the dialogue", no he doesn't but we fans like to think "Just is a troubled man because he charges the burden of being the grandson of the greatest hunter and wants to be proven worthy of his name"... a good approach that makes the global storyline better? oh yes, was that the original intention, oh no. But it's GOOD and that's what makes CV story and fans especial, we care  about the story, we care about how this game has some nodes to the last ones, and they DO HAVE THEM but it's a kinda spiritual connection that the pure Castlevania essence makes it grow natually, and that's why I love the series.

LoS actually has real storytelling, with various sub-plots all along (Necromantic Wars, Baba vs Malphas //epic//, Satan vs God and so on) and of course some unanswered questions that a lot of people call "Bad writing"... have you ever played Assassins Creed? It's actually the best writing this gen, and my God it has unanswered questions, frustrating ones even, but it's not because bad writing, it's because of keeping the intrigue. You should, you know, play more nowadays? the days of "go to the castle and rescue the princess" are gone as hell; LoS makes the old series to look very very silly storytelling wise, and it's worse when you think that LoS is actually somewhat FLAWED at storytelling (Oh yeah, gabriel is such a demon when he cries for Pan...) but it tries and somehow succeds in delivering emotions (old CV NEVER tried that concept)I got shivers when Marie dissapeared and Gabriel just stood there, crying, dissapointed... hard stuff.
We'll have to wait, LoS will continue and hopefully they will tune those bad parts and make future storytelling masterfully, at least, there's a place to begin with, at least, LoS fundations are good enough.
And for the old series... it could become better in narrative or not, I don't care.. I don't play those games for an emotional experience, they are just AWESOME by how they are; the story, will be our work, as always

[thernz]

I am not sure how Zobek has more charisma than Walter besides how he's voiced by Patrick Stewart. His dialogue offers no interesting lines. If anything near the end, his dialogue turns ludicrously hammy. His motivation is simple and cliche and his actions hold far too much foreshadowing to be interesting. Walter has a rather less bland motivation, is built up by other characters, and is clear and cut without convolution. He's a simply done character but that's better than the convoluted trickery tricked Zobek does.

I don't see how Leon asking questions is redundant when each question is different beyond the action of asking. The exposition in LoI is handled pretty badly in that regard but it isn't redundant in actual content. All of the questions are different and build on details. I mean, I don't see why he wouldn't ask when the enemies are saying cryptic things. It's better than LoS skipping out on details or ignoring things like when Zobek tells Gabriel that the village was slaughtered and when Gabriel is shown proof otherwise, he doesn't even question it. The main problem is LoS is that it has most of the same flaws of the older stories but then adds a whole slew of others in regards of redundancy, bloat, and lack of detail.

Gabriel's motivations are just as strong as Leon's. Gabriel wants revenge. Leon wants to save his beloved. There's really no depth to either. We don't even know Leon's origin compared to Gabriel's and Gabriel's fighting style is a lot more unrealistic and exaggerated than Leon's. I don't get how Leon's is any more anime than his. The only really anime moves are when Leon stupidly does his ground whip combos in the air. Those were just dumb.

About your redemption thing, the whole point of LoI was to set up that the descendants of Leon Belmont are tasked with defeating Dracula because Leon had unwillingly played a part in his creation. You could say that it's also a quest of redemption.

also just because,
In my opinion the best CV games are, in that order:

-Super Castlevania IV
-Castlevania I
-Symphony of the Night

@Ahasverus
The writing was always bad, and I'm not trying to dispute that. But the writing hasn't improved, it just loaded itself onto more flaws which is so jarring because of the stronger focus and improved presentation. I don't want a stronger focus on story when the stories are still bad. It's a stepping stone in the wrong direction. The storytelling itself is rather detrimental in regards to the gameplay.
And why care about sub-plots that don't add to the plot. Baba vs Malphas was absolutely useless because both characters were just ways for the game to stretch itself without adding to the plot. The sub-plot itself has no bearing on the game at all. None of the ones who listed are really sub-plots either since they have absolutely no development in the story besides Satan getting a chance of new power in Satan vs God. They are all just background fluff.

[Ahasverus]

And why care about sub-plots that don't add to the plot. Baba vs Malphas was absolutely useless because both characters were just ways for the game to stretch itself without adding to the plot. The sub-plot itself has no bearing on the game at all. None of the ones who listed are really sub-plots either since they have absolutely no development in the story besides Satan getting a chance of new power in Satan vs God. They are all just background fluff.

By now man, by now, wait and see - I hope -

Anyway, the story is only told in cutscenes, you always can play the game skkiping them and it becomes just like an OldVania, nice huh?