Topic: PS3 Version of HoDespair has local Co-op?

[Claimh Solais]

You people gotta stop calling it HoD..

HoD = Harmony of Dissonance
HD = Harmony of Despair!

Damn it...

THANK YOU!!! Finally someone who understands!

But anyway, you guys are all taking this HD thing way too seriously. Yeah, it came to PSN a year late, but as far as we know, to compensate, we're getting local co-op. There's a chance the PSN users might get more things, like extra DLC (seriously. Why wasn't Albus in the original DLC list, but Fuma was?).

You know. Kinda like how Resident Evil 4 came to PS2 a year or so late, and to compensate PS2 users got those extra features (but in return got shitty graphics compared to the Gamecube version).

[affinity]

I'd be curious to know how you make your distinction between mainstream and hardcore gamers.  Castlevania isn't exactly mainstream IMO --like I said before it has a niche audience... 

I wondering about that in your case as well!      You made it sound like the majority of hardcore gamers own a 360, when there really is no proof.  Hardcore gamers blend into the Mainstream crowd. You can't just base it on 360 western sales.     And while Castlevania may not be exactly mainstream, I think it would have to be a bit more than niche to get this far.   

I think we're confusing the figures here.  I'm speaking in terms of percentages, while you're speaking more in terms of populations.  Obviously there's an under-served population of Castlevania fans that own PS3s and not 360s --we're the ones that got jipped.  Porting it over to PSN is dirt cheap especially with digital distribution.  Any additional sales are gravy --even at $10.00 a sale.

I don't think you take profits as seriously as companies do because you are primarily thinking about paying less for more.  Most wouldn't overdo it with practically giving away their product for peanuts, companies have to make money any chance they get.    Digital Distribution is cheap than disk manufacturing, packaging and distribution, but I don't think selling products on PSN or XBLA is cheap at all.    You really think MS or Sony would put up products for other companies to make money off of, without charging a multi-digit fee?   Well excuse me for not researching this, feel free to do this homework about how much it costs for a company to sell games on PSN/XBLA to support your argument.   And also check if markets like PSN increase the price to put up products based on how long a company will pay to continue having it available on the market (for example, there might be a 1 year deal that costs a certain amount.  And that fee builds up the more months/time a company wants their product to be available on PSN.)      
But really, you're making it sound like an extra 5-40 bucks will break your wallet.   

So far the only officially announced addition to the game is the local co-op.  If they pimp out the game with some real extra content --say the Trevor, Sypha, Grant example, maybe Morris & Lecarde, more stages etc --certainly that's worth a second look.  But as of this moment, it's too little too late to pay a premium unless we're guaranteed the full package Day 1.  BTW--if indeed Microsoft paid off Konami for exclusivity, that diminishes your profit argument even further...

It isn't too little too late.  You are talking like you are a veteran of a 360 veteran who feels entitled to some super sale for almost nothing.       
And whatever MS paid for time exclusivity has nothing to do with the business Konami is doing with the PSN version.     

With your attitude, one would also expect every game that's ported a year later to cost less and give more.   That is ridiculous and not likely to happen at least in most cases.  You seem to be ranting over a $15 price, and DLC that only adds up to $30-40 if you choose to buy it all.     Konami gives a little extra for free, and you demand more to chew on at their expense?     And technically, you are already saving money, since you can scratch off about $10 from Julius, Yoko and Chapter 7 DLC.

I have a feeling HoD will be a breeze, and we'll get stuck waiting impatiently for DLC content

Well if people take their time instead of Survival speed grinding, they won't be thinking about upcoming DLC so early.     Well Konami surprised us with that local co-op addition and 2 free DLC characters,  maybe there is a DLC bundle planned or something.   

But anyways, PSN version is already starting with more stuff than the XBLA version, there is much to enjoy and appreciate in the meantime!   

I mean really, XBLA didn't get Chapter 7 until like September.  And Julius and Yoko didn't appear until November!          

With 7 characters to master instead of 5,  And 7 Chapters to learn instead of 6,  there will be a good amount of content as people wait for the DLC, if the other DLC isn't up the same month. 

Let's be honest here.  The "DLC" in HoD are rehashed sprites, some over a decade old.  They have at most a handful of new frames.  I don't see how that can be compared to DLC that is genuinely new and freshly created (ie:  SSFIV or MvC3).  I personally don't mind paying for the DLC, especially with the amount of hours I've sunk into HoD, but at the end of the day, the guys at Konami took some old ass sprites, slapped them into an already completed engine, and charged way more than they are worth.  Let's not kid ourselves otherwise.

Um you extremely underrate the value of the DLC!  Especially the characters DLC.   

Playable Characters DLC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   costumes DLC.   

And  instead of selling Yun, Yang, and the new versions of Ryu and Akuma as individual characters DLC, Capcom expect people to buy the AE version.     And why extra versions of Ryu and Akuma?  They could have added more actually 'different' characters that weren't in SFIV series.     That would be like if Castlevania HD wasted a slot with "Evil Soma" or something like that.   Extra version of the exact same person are cheap character additions.  It doesn't matter if they have new graphics or moves.   

Things like whip using Belmonts are an exception because they at least have their own identity and flavor.
 
Yes MVC3 added, what, 2 DLC characters.  Yes they are freshly created (although really really bad 3-D art style. Even SFIV 3-D art was better.) , but it's the ruined sci-fi RE5 version of Jill, and Shuma Gorath which was never popular even in MVC2.   Most people don't even know where they appeared in Marvel comics.   And MVC3 is just a fighting game (not much variety or freedom in gameplay besides defeating opponent in small space.)  and one of the worst ones Capcom has ever made.    And Capcom is one of the least dedicated with added playable characters and new locations DLC.    Instead of making the Mercenaries characters playable in the RE5 story campaign, they are restricted to Mercenaries mode only.  Same with only Leon usable in RE4 story, when Krauser, Ada and the others from Mercenaries were made playable by mods who don't work for Capcom.  Story smory.   The best games don't place story above gameplay variety.    At least Capcom somewhat got that right in Lost Planet 2. 

And Castlevania games already showed examples of allowing more playable characters in the adventure despite contradicting the story, it does add more variety and replay value. 

Whereas Castlevania HD added 6 playable upgradable characters DLC, 5 Chapters DLC, music packs with multiple tracks each (even better with the fact you can customize which track plays for stage and boss.)

You don't see most companies adding multiple stages DLC, multiple playable characters DLC.   At most they would just add costumes or some weapon. 

Rant all you want about the graphics, but the classic sprites are a work of art that fits nicely in 2-D Castlevania.     I'm glad they didn't remake the sprites otherwise their designs would end up looking like some cheesy Flash game like Super Street Fighter II HD Remix and Double Dragon.   Although UDON worked hard on the sprites,  they still don't compare to the classic sprites essence.     And while ASW's Hard Corps Uprising looked good, the art still lacked the gritty and more complex style of the classics graphics/art, much of the Contra atmosphere and spirit was missing due to the new sprites and new graphics art style.

[uzo]

Rant all you want about the graphics, but the classic sprites are a work of art that fits nicely in 2-D Castlevania.     I'm glad they didn't remake the sprites otherwise their designs would end up looking like some awful Flash game like Super Street Fighter II HD Remix and Double Dragon.   Although UDON worked hard on the sprites,  they still don't compare to the classic sprites essence.     And while ASW's Hard Corps Uprising looked good, the art still lacked the gritty and more complex style of the classics graphics/art, much of the Contra atmosphere was missing due to the new sprites.

Hard Corps:
While it wasn't the same style as other Contra's, the style was consistent, and high quality. The sprites were large and fluid. Just mentioning this title in this thread is complete mockery of HD, since it outclasses it in every way imaginable. Hard Corps is an extremely high quality download title, within the same price range if I recall correctly. It looks down from its pedestal, and it can't even see HD.

SSFIITHD:
UDON did not do the animations. This is a common misconception. UDON did some of the the key frame line art, that is all. The whole concept was good, but the end result was lacking in quality and consistency. They used a lot of shortcuts, and it showed.



HD has little consistency in itself, which is not a problem completely exclusive to HD, but it shows much more here. New quality sprites (note quality) would have been welcome. At the very least, tweaks, a new costume, and or style consistency changes. Even making the palettes all work together instead of using, for instance, Rondo's neon color palettes still.

Though, all the new sprites in HD were pretty terrible; misshapen, rushed, inconsistent, and even breaking the styles each character comes from. Maybe it's best they just stuck with the majority of the originals. We could be looking at far worse given the general incompetence of the graphic artists in HD.

That aside, I do agree with you that giving Julius, Yoko, and Stage7 out for free, along with added local co-op is great. I find that is a very nice introduction for PS3 players, and not all companies would do such a generous giveaway. Yes the DLC is overpriced, yes the DLC is reused sprites and so forth, but that wont change now. We at least get 10$ worth of overpriced DLC for no additional cost. That'd be like giving away LoS Resurrection DLC for free because of the PS3 network down delay. It's a nice gesture they DIDN'T have to do by any means, but felt nice enough to do. It's a good move too, market wise. It makes people more apt to try it, who didn't have a 360.

On top of all that, they could have been total dicks and included characters no one wants for free. They could have shipped just NES Simon with it and called it a day, or gave a music pack. Instead they chose two great characters, Julius and Yoko, who are very popular and very sought after in terms of gameplay.

[affinity]

Hard Corps:
While it wasn't the same style as other Contra's, the style was consistent, and high quality. The sprites were large and fluid.

Consistent but feels out of place in Contra universe.   

SSFIITHD:
UDON did not do the animations. This is a common misconception. UDON did some of the the key frame line art, that is all. .

It doesn't matter if the animations become SF3 quality, the characters still look dumbed down in detail, style and depth.   Yes while some like Vega and T.Hawk were somewhat improved, others like Ken, Blanka, Guile and Chun Li totally appear levels below their original appearance (sprites and portrait-wise too.  Ken's hair is inaccurate, looks weaker, lost his classic serious sprite expression,  Guile looks smaller, weaker, Blanka doesn't look intimidating anymore, Chun Li looks plain, and like she lost weight.).  Still the lesser shades of colors and other things, really make them appear lifeless compared to the original sprites.  And adding animations would not fix that.

HD has little consistency in itself, which is not a problem completely exclusive to HD, but it shows much more here. New quality sprites (note quality) would have been welcome. At the very least, tweaks, a new costume, and or style consistency changes. Even making the palettes all work together instead of using, for instance, Rondo's neon color palettes still.

then they wouldn't feel the same.  That's like the makeover that's being done to Devil May Cry.    You shouldn't mess with their original costume/appearance.  Yes with Dante, it's a little more flexible.  But Castlevania characters is a different story.   It would turn out like the horrific Castlevania Judgement all over again (depending on who are the character and sprite designers.)  or with new graphics that ruin the atmosphere like the completely awful Turtles in Time remake (that's 2.5D, but still.)

And also, 'quality' sprites have different definitions.  Some people just want Blazblue looking line art with less detail but more sharpness,  even if it makes it look too anime.   

Others want to leave the sprites as is because it preserves the irreplaceable quality that define the legendary characters the best in the gameplay (that's why many are glad Simon's sprite was his 8-bit sprite instead of the Chronicles version.) 

Overall the sprites and art in Castlevania HD are gorgeous by Castlevania and hardcore gaming standards.    And even the DS characters never looked better (although it would've been nice if there was a camera settings to match the SOTN or OOE zoom level, that would make them large enough to deliver even more impact in the gameplay, but I'm used to the highest zoom setting it offers.    )

[Claimh Solais]

Consistent but feels out of place in Contra universe.

It's still consistent.

then they wouldn't feel the same.  That's like the makeover that's being done to Devil May Cry.    You shouldn't mess with their original costume/appearance.  Yes with Dante, it's a little more flexible.  But Castlevania characters is a different story.   It would turn out like the horrific Castlevania Judgement all over again (depending on who are the character and sprite designers.)  or with new graphics that ruin the atmosphere like the completely awful Turtles in Time remake (that's 2.5D, but still.)

And also, 'quality' sprites have different definitions.  Some people just want Blazblue looking line art with less detail but more sharpness,  even if it makes it look too anime.   

Others want to leave the sprites as is because it preserves the irreplaceable quality that define the legendary characters the best in the gameplay (that's why many are glad Simon's sprite was his 8-bit sprite instead of the Chronicles version.)

1) He's not talking about completely remaking the character. He's talking about touching it up, maybe modifying the outfit to make it a little more accurate to the artwork (coughRichtercough). It's much better than reusing the same sprites since 1992.

2) What Castlevania fans want are Castlevania sprites, but touched up to look modern. Not like the old ones from 1992 (coughRichtercough).

3) It doesn't matter if it preserves the character or whatever. Anyone could use that excuse to use the same thing over and over again, when in all honesty it's largely a copout.

4) Simon's gameplay would largely be the same if he got his Chronicles sprite. The only difference would be that he's larger, so you'd have to duck more often, and he can whip in the downward directions in midair. Overall, he'd be better.

5) Who all was happy about 8-bit Simon being put in? I know on GameFAQs in particular everyone was pissed we got another 8-bit, which has been done time and again. Everyone wanted at least the Chronicles outfit, or a finished version of his sprite from PoR. Hell, they even used his Chronicles artwork in the character select!

Overall the sprites and art in Castlevania HD are gorgeous by Castlevania and hardcore gaming standards.    And even the DS characters never looked better (although it would've been nice if there was a camera settings to match the SOTN or OOE zoom level, that would make them large enough to deliver even more impact in the gameplay, but I'm used to the highest zoom setting it offers.    )

Most are gorgeous, I agree. Some are just bad, now that I look at them (for God's sake, why doesn't Maria's skirt move?!). I don't really have a problem with them reusing the sprites, but when they reuse them badly, it's a big problem (coughSimoncough). And WHY was Fuma put in and not Albus?!

[Sonic_Reaper]

To clarify, it is a fact that the sprites are rehashed, and some over a decade old.  There's no escaping that.  I also mentioned that I found value in the game, while others may not, and I can understand the criticisms of them using old ass sprites.

I agree with Uzo that the consistency could have been much, much better.  Maria doesn't even have a 16 frame run cycle.  They at least did that favor for Richter and Maria in the PSP port, even if the inbetween frames were just body parts moved around.  At least they tried.  Same with Richter's outfit in NitM.  At least they made the effort.  To be honest, some of the sprites just either did not age particularly well (Maria) or were just ass to begin with (Yoko) and could definitely have used some new animations/touch ups here and there. 

And I agree about the whole 8-bit thing.  It's been done before.  It's just a gimmick at this point.  And if you're going to include it, at least give the option of using an updated sprite alongside it.  Especially since Simon has a couple now to choose from.  I wouldn't have even minded his CV4 one.

[cecil-kain]

I wondering about that in your case as well!      You made it sound like the majority of hardcore gamers own a 360, when there really is no proof.  Hardcore gamers blend into the Mainstream crowd. You can't just base it on 360 western sales.     And while Castlevania may not be exactly mainstream, I think it would have to be a bit more than niche to get this far.

   

Mainstream is a word I would use to describe the appeal of software/hardware moreso than the gamers themselves.  IMO the paradigm for gamers would be Hardcore vs Casual.  Gaming either IS a way of life or it ISN'T.  When I think of "mainstream" I think of games that have universal appeal and sell very well.  Mario games are certainly mainstream --whereas Castlevania (even with its dedicated cult) is far more of a niche market...  When you talk about Consoles, the Wii is certainly the mainstream machine, but even Nintendo admits that they have a serious problem with the Hardcore audience.

I don't think you take profits as seriously as companies do because you are primarily thinking about paying less for more.  Most wouldn't overdo it with practically giving away their product for peanuts, companies have to make money any chance they get.    Digital Distribution is cheap than disk manufacturing, packaging and distribution, but I don't think selling products on PSN or XBLA is cheap at all.    You really think MS or Sony would put up products for other companies to make money off of, without charging a multi-digit fee?   Well excuse me for not researching this, feel free to do this homework about how much it costs for a company to sell games on PSN/XBLA to support your argument.   And also check if markets like PSN increase the price to put up products based on how long a company will pay to continue having it available on the market (for example, there might be a 1 year deal that costs a certain amount.  And that fee builds up the more months/time a company wants their product to be available on PSN.)      But really, you're making it sound like an extra 5-40 bucks will break your wallet.   

I get it.  The game industry is run by business-centered ideologies --that's the problem today.  The suits have forgetten that they are in the business of selling ART.  Castlevania was once a mainstream title --Super Castlevania IV helped LAUNCH the Super NES and bury the Sega Genesis.  The game was a "sequel", but it was also fresh and innovative in almost every possible way.  Compare that to the cannibalized, recycled content we're getting with HD.  I'm sure I'll love playing it --just as I loved SotN and the other Castleroids, but we're not afraid to call Konami out for cutting corners to eek out their profits.  But like I've said already --there's no official price yet.   And at the end of the day, money isn't everything, but the principles matter --and it's the principles you're not addressing here.

It isn't too little too late.  You are talking like you are a veteran of a 360 veteran who feels entitled to some super sale for almost nothing.       
And whatever MS paid for time exclusivity has nothing to do with the business Konami is doing with the PSN version.     

With your attitude, one would also expect every game that's ported a year later to cost less and give more.   That is ridiculous and not likely to happen at least in most cases.  You seem to be ranting over a $15 price, and DLC that only adds up to $30-40 if you choose to buy it all.     Konami gives a little extra for free, and you demand more to chew on at their expense?     And technically, you are already saving money, since you can scratch off about $10 from Julius, Yoko and Chapter 7 DLC.

Again not the price --the principle.

Well if people take their time instead of Survival speed grinding, they won't be thinking about upcoming DLC so early.     Well Konami surprised us with that local co-op addition and 2 free DLC characters,  maybe there is a DLC bundle planned or something.   

But anyways, PSN version is already starting with more stuff than the XBLA version, there is much to enjoy and appreciate in the meantime!   

I mean really, XBLA didn't get Chapter 7 until like September.  And Julius and Yoko didn't appear until November!          

With 7 characters to master instead of 5,  And 7 Chapters to learn instead of 6,  there will be a good amount of content as people wait for the DLC, if the other DLC isn't up the same month. 

I know I asked this before but...  What's WRONG with having the Full Package available on Day 1?

[Claimh Solais]

I think either all the DLC should be included with the package, or at least available for download the same time as release. I don't see why they'd need to wait for it.

I'm still hoping for more characters. I'm not exactly seeing stages, since they already released the OST for the game, and the stages require new songs. Still, more characters sounds like a possibility.

[cecil-kain]

I think either all the DLC should be included with the package, or at least available for download the same time as release. I don't see why they'd need to wait for it.

I'm still hoping for more characters. I'm not exactly seeing stages, since they already released the OST for the game, and the stages require new songs. Still, more characters sounds like a possibility.

They're retooling the code for the local co-op, so the door IS open.  Shame on Konami if they don't...  Just a couple ideas...  Someone mentioned Albus already --then there's the Castlevania 3 Trio --Morris and Lecarde --I'd Really like to see Leon and Christopher added...  Maybe the CVIV or Chronicles Version of Simon....  The theme material say from Bloodlines would be a very nice addition...

[Claimh Solais]

I mentioned Albus. I was really disappointed that he wasn't in the game, especially since he has all the necessary sprites. They can't say it's because of his gun either, what with every character having ranged weaponry and Soma having three firearms usable.

I'd like Chronicles Simon. Just make a running animation, slide, and jump kicks for him and he's pretty much set already.

[KaZudra]

You people gotta stop calling it HoD..

HoD = Harmony of Dissonance
HD = Harmony of Despair!

Damn it...

haha!, I've been stessing that in gamefaqs for months...

[affinity]

Fuma was chosen because Chapter 11 must have been planned around the sametime to be based on Getsu Fuma Den.   So how could they add a stage based on Getsu Fuma Den areas without Fuma as a DLC character as well?

It's sometimes Konami's nature to add some stage or character that's Konami related to something. 

Take Parodius for example, one of it's games had a stage and boss based on Castlevania, and even some Castlevania themed music.   

Contra Hard Corps had a special stage with a whip-wielding boss that is somewhat based on Castlevania (and the funny credits music afterwards is a parody version of existing Castlevania music.)

People question why Albus wasn't added when Hammer was hinted at long before people thought about it.   And there's also Stella and Loretta from Portrait of Ruin that were playable back then and could be adapted and rebalanced for this gameplay.     They could just as easily add SOTN Trevor, Sypha and Grant if they wanted to. 

or at least available for download the same time as release. I don't see why they'd need to wait for it.

Well it's a guess but if all the DLC is not on PSN Store day 1, maybe because they won't want to overwhelm customers with so much DLC day one. 

It might put off some people because it's a trend to hate day 1 DLC, people would just have more complaints about the DLC not being included in the main version.    So it might make it more reasonable to consumers if the rest of the DLC appeared in weekly or monthly occasions.  That would also technically expand interest and bring 1st month players back for more content they haven't used before.


Another guess is that depending on the testing process, how long they decide to test each DLC for PS3 hardware, and when they decide to submit it to PSN Store.  So really, when it's submitted to PSN Store,  it's mainly up to Sony to decide when it releases exactly.

It's possible not all the DLC would be ready in time for PSN version full release.  There could be many reasons.

[Claimh Solais]

Fuma was chosen because Chapter 11 must have been planned around the sametime to be based on Getsu Fuma Den.   So how could they add a stage based on Getsu Fuma Den areas without Fuma as a DLC character as well?

It's sometimes Konami's nature to add some stage or character that's Konami related to something. 

Take Parodius for example, one of it's games had a stage and boss based on Castlevania, and even some Castlevania themed music.   

Contra Hard Corps had a special stage with a whip-wielding boss that is somewhat based on Castlevania (and the funny credits music afterwards is a parody version of existing Castlevania music.)

People question why Albus wasn't added when Hammer was hinted at long before people thought about it.   And there's also Stella and Loretta from Portrait of Ruin that were playable back then and could be adapted and rebalanced for this gameplay.     They could just as easily add SOTN Trevor, Sypha and Grant if they wanted to. 

Well it's a guess but if all the DLC is not on PSN Store day 1, maybe because they won't want to overwhelm customers with so much DLC day one. 

It might put off some people because it's a trend to hate day 1 DLC, people would just have more complaints about the DLC not being included in the main version.    So it might make it more reasonable to consumers if the rest of the DLC appeared in weekly or monthly occasions.  That would also technically expand interest and bring 1st month players back for more content they haven't used before.


Another guess is that depending on the testing process, how long they decide to test each DLC for PS3 hardware, and when they decide to submit it to PSN Store.  So really, when it's submitted to PSN Store,  it's mainly up to Sony to decide when it releases exactly.

It's possible not all the DLC would be ready in time for PSN version full release.  There could be many reasons.

Makes a lot of sense, yeah. Understand that whole part about the DLC thing.

However, about Chapter 11 (and 10 for that matter), I felt those were the biggest copouts of all. I really didn't like the fact that 8-bit stuff was being added in (but I totally called exactly what Ch. 10 was gonna be). I actually would have preferred if they used stages from say... Castlevania Chronicles or something. But anyway, what's done is done and I had a lot of fun with Ch. 10 (never played 11), so whatever about that.

But hey, does anyone know about this? I heard there was a Rondo of Blood stage planned for the game. Romulus from GameFAQs said there were slots for 12 stages, so I'm guessing this was to occupy that slot?

[affinity]

Haven't heard about Rondo stage planned or Ch12 slot.   

Hmmm, it would make sense if they were saving the 12th Chapter for when PSN version releases, then release that Chapter for both versions once PSN is up to date with DLC.

I wonder if they could add more stage slots if they wanted to.  But it might be harder to patch than simply using premade slots for extra stages.

Well Chapter 10 is super awesome having all Castlevania 1 stages united like that.  Well yes, only Simon's size fits with the enviornment, but it's still one of the best stages of all time and fun with all characters and it's just so massive and packed with lots of rooms and great level design that surpasses metroidvania level designs.  The classic Castlevanias really knew how to better balance platforming, traps and stuff better for more danger and more variety in topography, although metroidvanias were better with how locations can connect into a bigger world and more non-linear progression.  So Chapter 10 possessing a combination of both generations of level design flavors is really superb!   

Also Chapter 11 even though it isn't Castlevania based, still is related to Castlevania in a way because many agree Getsu Fuma Den is like the Japanese culture inspired version of Castlevania.   Also Chapter 11 has two of the most awesomest tracks remade in supreme excellence!  Also the enviornment and mini-bosses add a lot of variety!    Castlevania characters do fit nicely in those 8-bit enviornments and add great feeling and entertainment unlike anything else!  It just goes to show there are no walls within true art. 

[Gunlord]

Can't wait to get this for my PStripple