Topic: the Alucard-Lecarde connection

[KaZudra]

PoR kinda fucked up alot of the Castlevania Mythos, first being that Bloodlines was never supposed to be a part of IGA's Canon.
Bloodlines is a sequel to Bram Stroker's Dracula, which isn't the same Dracula as IGA's Dracula.

The story would make more sense if PoR wasn't a Part of IGA's canon, but it's own game with own story, but heaven forbids IGA from makinbg his master timeline revolving around massive plotholes and a 1999 war....

while the game is fun, I believe it should have been just re-written to be it's own universe like CoTM, instead we get a budget sequel with a creatively bankrupt plot.

[Flame]

Mature responses? That's ironic.. How angry were you when you wrote that post, someone needs to chill the F out.

It comes with the territory. I prefer to call it "fiery passion"

Zelda does have a concrete timeline, it's documented in Hyrule Historia.

news to me. I stand corrected. I thought Nintendo wasn't about the timeline when it came to Zelda?

In conclusion, games are supposed to be fun, if you're not having fun you're not doing it right. Maybe steer clear of those games.

I do. Doesn't mean I can't complain about them and why I find them unfun. also, something can be fun, and still have a terrible everything else. Terrible story, music, etc. (well maybe not music, that's pretty important...)

That's all I'm going to say, I don't have to listen to some prepubescent f@!*head having a tantrum. Have a lovely day.

Pot calling the kettle black, pal.

[beingthehero]

Really? That's actually pretty cool. I forgot about this.

It was actually her grandfather, but whatevs:

Daniela: My Grandfather and I would always bake together. That man loved
sweets. Especially in the middle of a good, old-fashioned monster hunt.

Shanoa: Monster hunt? You mean--!?

Daniela: Nothing better than the view from atop the [Lighthouse] after an epic
battle.

[derision]

Bloodlines is a sequel to Bram Stroker's Dracula, which isn't the same Dracula as IGA's Dracula.

Have you actually read Bram Stoker's Dracula or at least seen the movie? I ask because what you're saying just isn't true. Bloodlines only loosely adapted small parts of that novel into the Castlevania universe.

If you accept that game as a sequel to Bram Stoker's Dracula within the canon of that book's world, you have to accept one pretty gigantic and nonsensical retcon regarding Quincey Morris and the final encounter with Dracula. Totally doesn't work.

[beingthehero]

Yeah, Bloodlines' backstory indicates that Quincy was also using the whip at some point during the events of the book, and John watched him die.

I still don't see how PoR's story is making people collectively clench their butts. A non-Belmont can't use the whip constantly without dying, and since Quincy, John, and Jonathan were the only non-Belmonts to use it (and only John died from using it too much), it doesn't alter the original Castlevania mythos that much.

[zangetsu468]

Yeah, Bloodlines' backstory indicates that Quincey was also using the whip at some point during the events of the book, and John watched him die.

Quincey was killed by the Szgany who were trying to resurrect Dracula, his death had nothing to do with Quincey using the VK.
I vaguely remember the novel describes him as a hunter, at some point and he did have prior knowledge of vampirism.

I still don't see how PoR's story is making people collectively clench their butts. A non-Belmont can't use the whip constantly without dying, and since Quincey, John, and Jonathan were the only non-Belmonts to use it (and only John died from using it too much), it doesn't alter the original Castlevania mythos that much.

Actually it's implied in POR that eventually Jonathan will die, when he finds out the reason his father passed away.
Using it too much is kind of a vague explanation. Presumably, John would not have required the VK after Bloodlines (maybe he did but we're not shown this) yet he still perished.
It could be inferred that for someone to exert the necessary force to kill Count Dracula, one would need to make heavy use of the VK and while being a non-Belmont this would most likely cause death, which could be instant but it also could be over time. We're never shown Jonathan's death, but this is the most likely scenario of eventual death post-Drac/ Death fight because of what happened to John.

I agree it doesn't alter it that much. Even the including of Stoker's novel doesn't. Quincey is a character who's engulfed in mystery, doesn't seem to have relatives, never makes a journal entry, has this prior knowledge of the night, is referenced as a hunter at some point, and is the person who destroys Dracula. Aside from not explicitly being shown he used the VK (not to say he didn't have possession) he's basically just a strong and mysterious character.

[beingthehero]

Quincey was killed by the Szgany who were trying to resurrect Dracula, his death had nothing to do with Quincey using the VK.

Yeah, I know it had nothing to do with the VK. Bloodlines' manual simply states that John and Eric watched Quincy die while fighting Dracula no less:

Finally, in 1897 Quincy Morris, a descendent of the House of Belmont, overcame great odds to defeat Dracula and send him to his eternal grave. Unfortunately since Quincy was so badly beaten in his battle with the Count, he lost his own life moments after plunging a wooden stake into Dracula's chest.

Quincy's legacy has continued, however. His son--John Morris--and John's childhood friend Eric Lecarde had witnessed the Quincy-Dracula showdown from the shadows. That scene changed their lives forever--as they grew older they swore to rid the planet of the evil creatures of the underworld.

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cvbl/game-castlevaniabl.htm

Actually it's implied in POR that eventually Jonathan will die, when he finds out the reason his father passed away.

You gotta replay the game dude, it implies just the opposite:

Eric: Hm? You already unlocked the Vampire Killer?

Jonathan: Yep.

Eric: If you understand how your father felt, then it's best
      not to use the whip after this battle ends.

Jonathan: Well, I'll do what I can. I prefer not to die young.

[DragonSlayr81]

PoR kinda fucked up alot of the Castlevania Mythos, first being that Bloodlines was never supposed to be a part of IGA's Canon.
Bloodlines is a sequel to Bram Stroker's Dracula, which isn't the same Dracula as IGA's Dracula.

Especially when IGA said it WAS. I think IGA's the only one to say what belongs in his canon and what doesn't. Either way, Stoker's Dracula is as vague as the CV Dracula(all CV depictions of Dracula). Besides, regardless of Stoker's story being different than CV lore, there was obviously an event within the CV canon that connected the two together, not unlike the various historical events that connect to the CV series. Was the CV version EXACTLY like the novel's events? Probably not. Still, is CV's depiction of WWI(and the events leading up to it, as in Elizabeth Bartley being responsible for the assassination of the Archduke) true to history? Who cares about the particulars. CV basically stated CV3's events were the ones leading up to Dracula's death(his historical death in 1476, in the CV universe, his "first death").

[zangetsu468]

You gotta replay the game dude, it implies just the opposite:

Love to but can't afford the time. I stand corrected, good thing he doesn't have to die.

[crisis]

in poltrait of ruin Jonathan also indirectly references Quince, in one of the discussions he say "grandfather something something whip," i forget the exact wording but its there

he also say his fatjer John died because his wounds wouldnt heal after he defeating Dracula

in the timeline that came with the preorder materials with Por, for 1897 it says "Quinc Morris, belmont Decadent, keeps Dracula at bay." so it the only things Bram Stoker's novel & castlevania have in common is that Quincy used teh Holy Whip to defeat Matthias(not Gabrian), thats it. we dont know if Harker, van Helsing, Lucy or anybody was there or even exists in CV Reality. everything else pertaining to that event is pure speculation so dont let any1 else tell you guys & gals otherwise

about who can or cannot use teh whip, its just magic y curses to blame for all the mishaps in the cv world, nothing more nothing less but that is pretty obvius buy now

[Shiroi Koumori]

Whoa Crisis! Are you typing via smart phone? This is the first time I saw your post with lots of typos. Or you're just trolling.

Anyway, as for the whip, I think the only ones who can use it properly are those who have undergone some sort of ritual (whether stated or implied) that allows the whip to recognize it's bearer.

[zangetsu468]

Anyway, as for the whip, I think the only ones who can use it properly are those who have undergone some sort of ritual (whether stated or implied) that allows the whip to recognize it's bearer.

Is this not the point to fighting the VK's memory in POR.

On another note, I like this concept purely because the VK contains Sara's soul, the whip of alchemy required a tainted soul who trusts its weilder. It makes logistical sense to have to face the whip's memory.

[Intersection]

At least we can all agree that the Bloodlines saga created more problems than it ever solved.

To be honest, Bloodlines should simply have been retconned. All Portrait of Ruin managed to do was to enlarge an already gaping plot hole; and now that OoE has actually built upon it, that makes three games that need to be weeded out for the canon to start making sense again -- unless a future game manages to tie up all of the CV canon's loose ends. I'm honestly more partial to the the latter option, but I'm not seeing that happen in the near future.

[crisis]

look at all the shit IGA got when he retconned Legends, i can just imagine how the fanbase woulda reacted if he also cut bloodlines from the canon. people still hold grudges against him till this day

@Shiroi sorry i type from my iphone a lot when iam supposed to be "working" o.o;;
b-but indeed i also troll everybody here cuz a lot of ppl here are too uptight all the time

[DragonSlayr81]

At least we can all agree that the Bloodlines saga created more problems than it ever solved.

To be honest, Bloodlines should simply have been retconned. All Portrait of Ruin managed to do was to enlarge an already gaping plot hole; and now that OoE has actually built upon it, that makes three games that need to be weeded out for the canon to start making sense again -- unless a future game manages to tie up all of the CV canon's loose ends. I'm honestly more partial to the the latter option, but I'm not seeing that happen in the near future.

Why is there any need to retcon Bloodlines. It came BEFORE the whole 1999/Julius Belmont thing was even concieved, as well as SotN(hell, it even predates Legends, which WAS retconned, though came out banking on SotN considering it used the SotN designs of Alucard and Dracula as the basis for it's depictions).

That being said, the presence of the Morris clan within the CV canon isn't that much of a deal. ESPECIALLY what Bloodlines brought forth. It's what IGA wrote, as well as what was wrote with PoR that messes things up. Now, IGA wrote Julius Belmont to be the one who finally defeated Dracula in 1999, which contradicts that already established Morris clan being present in Bloodlines, BUT IGA came up with the idea that the Belmonts had to go into hiding until 1999, so naturally the Morris clan had to step in and take their place, being blood relatives. Note, at this point, IGA did NOT say the Morris clan was inferior to the Belmonts. For all we know, they could've been estranged from the family business over centuries, yet still harbored that latent power to fight against evil(while those of the main branch have been training for centuries and are primed for fighting evil, but due to what ever prevented them from touching the VK, they can't). Hell, he could've came up with a GOOD reason to explain everything without downgrading the power and importance of the Morris clan(hell, I could've). But then, we got PoR, which explains why the Morris clan is inferior to the main Belmont branch, and that's about it(story-wise, is doesn't offer much).

Call it one of many occasions that IGA dropped the ball. We could've gotten a great follow-up to Bloodlines that went more into depth regarding the Morris clan, their history, how they split off from the Belmonts and how they came back into the family business. Especially some more interesting ideas considering it took place during WWII, like the previous one took place during WWI, and had you running across Europe in the process. I think many of us just wanted something fitting of the great game that Bloodlines was. Other than that, while I love OoE, IGA dropped the ball regarding tackling WHY the Belmonts have to go into hiding. First hearing that, I always pictured something like the Belmonts being tainted to the point that they couldn't LITERALLY hold the VK, and it would take over a century to cleanse the main Belmont family line through generational meditation just so, eventually, a Belmont can be born again without the "taint" and can wield the VK. I pictured it some big conspiracy of Dracula's followers, so pissed off after all the defeats, to curse the main family to the point that they cannot wield their weapon(the only weapon capable of killing Dracula), hoping that this cripples them and allows a time period where Dracula CAN come back without a VK wielding Belmont to counter him. Of course, they don't count on the Morris clan, who the Belmont's contact(finding them in America), and call their asses to Europe to help stop Dracula while the main Belmonts seek a means to break this curse/taint. I know I rambled, but OoE only briefly brushes over that. We know something happened and the Belmonts were sent scattering throughout the countryside, and eventually you have to gather them to populate Wygol. LOL! Really not important. The story is almost as pointless as PoR, but it has the good case of being both a good game and not making you feel dumb over the whole "Morris clan is inferior".

With CV, games that don't contribute ANYTHING are looked upon with "meh, it's alright" type attitude, but ones that bring in sort've loathed concepts and ideas(PoR's "Morris clan is inferior", Legends' "Trevor is Alucard and Sonia's son, and Dracula's grandson") are pretty much scorned. I find that a bit funny. A game that does nothing new is held in higher regarnds that one that tries to push a new idea(well, in some cases).