Topic: Will indie gaming will take over FPS&casual gaming fad for good

[Shiroi Koumori]

Dracula9: Whew~ That's a great read. Exhale you must. Hehehe.

Stop being a prick. We're all entitled to our opinions, but that doesn't make mine more right than your or yours more right than mine. It's not my place to tell people what to think and it's not yours either. Learn how to actually argue before you throw down the gauntlet with people that do, otherwise you're going to get publicly curb-stomped, and depending on who you piss off, even more heavily than what I just did.

True true, the bigger stompers have largely ignored this post so far.

Pretty much sums it up. This isn't the Highlander. There can be more than one. 

Exactly. And that makes more choices for all of us.

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But, as much as I'm enjoying following this debate, I'm just throwing in a warning before things turn sour soon... Cuz I have a feeling~♫

[Dracula9]

I doubt I'll have anything more to say. If that didn't get through to him, then I know this is a lost cause. I've said my peace. Now all that's left for me to do is have the popcorn at the ready should shenanigans ensue.

[ROCKMAN X]

You pretty strongly implied it. By generalizing that "a good bulk of them are" and only listing off console gens rather than providing more than a few generic and obvious examples to back up your argument very heavily suggests that you meant all modern games.

You're equivocating! i already made it CLEAR that not all games are.. there is no diversity that was my point.

you having the audacity to suggest that they should.

Yeah because God forbid i express my opinion online!

I don't really care what gen you were talking about.

Well i don't really care about what you have to say about shooter genre's evolution,all i know is that FPS shooters were not this big before COD:Modern warfare and HALO maybe they were in the early 90's but they clearly were not in the PS2 generation.

There are recessions and market influxes and inflation in salaries and beyond to worry about, and you don't seem to be grasping that.

YES I KNOW THAT! many big publishers haven't recovered from the recession of 08 but that's no excuse to force the developers to churn out yearly sequels and DLC's.

Battlefield 4 and Assassins creed 3 both these games were rushed into the market marred with bugs and glitches and were overall low in quality when compared to its predecessors.

If they actually let the developers do their thing without streamlining the game for mainstream appeal i would have no problems with them whatsoever but it seems like they just want to appeal to everyone thus the overblown hollywood movie shtick and streamlined casual shooter approach.

Its not like they can't do it.. its just that they're lazy and gamers eat it up instead of boycotting unethical business practices so they keep using the same formula and i don't blame them for it either.

One, sales figures have absolutely nothing to do with my point whatsoever. Missing the point seems to be your own little craze.

Not just sales figure but the games that are trending and the games that are the most talked about i've even heard from people that destiniy is a system seller.. that is insane,this game hasn't even been released and people are going nuts about it,WTF is so good about it anyway? its just a bloody FPS shooter.. its not the next portal or metroid.

You might want to reread that a few times and let it sink in, as that's my biggest point of contention against you and your argument.

I can't help people who get easily offended by someone else's opinion or dislike for a certain trend.

I don't have anything against FPS shooters at all.. i only have problem with the reoccurring trend in the gaming industry.

Again, missing the point. And really? Tapping a screen to stop a colorful bird from crashing into a pipe is the same formula as a military story about war and regimes and factional conflicts?

The irony is on you buddy! you're the one who's missing the point STREAMLINING and watering down games for Casual gamers is the same no matter if its just a phone game or a big budget AAA game the "Formula" is the same.

Oh, of course. The God of War games didn't dominate the market for months at a time

But there were no God of war yearly releases or 10,000 games like God of war on the market.. there was just GOW 1&2 on PS2 that's it.

so there's a rehash of a formula you conveniently forgot to mention

Well yeah if you put it like that then Super Mario Bros totally ripped off Pac-land!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sRiFoJMNTU

Pac-land was technically the first side-scroller and super mario bros came a year after that so its obvious that it was inspired by it.

But you're totally correct. Every genre sold equally across the board on the PSX and PS2. That IS what you're saying, right?

EXACTLY! that gen had diversity everyone had something to play.. the market wasn't filled with samey games,every game series felt unique and different from each others but this gen?? hell naw... every big game series has to appeal to the everyone or else it won't make as much money.

lol and i didn't even realize that PS1/PS2 had this much RPG's until i got into searching for it but the thing is they all feel different.. persona,final fantasy,breath of fire,dragon quest,Dark cloud 2,Ys,  all feel like different games!

But games like HALO,Borderlands,bioshock,killzone,Call of duty,battlefield  don't feel like different games... they all have the same streamlined gameplay,the same health regen,jumping,"Cinematic experence" etc everything just with a new coat of paint.

games like doom had large maze like maps and we don't see that in modern FPS games! we don't see health packs in FPS shooter either.. its always health regen its the laziest game mechanic i can think of.

And this is not only limited to shooters its  game design is also present in almost every modern game.. look at GTA 5 they made driving piss easy because 12 yrs olds bitched about driving in GTA 4 look at the "puzzles" in tomb raider reboot they're pathetically easy when compared to the puzzles in legend which actually made me look for an FAQ,look at hitman absolution which streamlined the levels into 3 sections with checkpoints original hitman games had no such checkpoints everything took place in an open-world area where everything happened in real time.

You've thrown everyone else's argument under the bus because you couldn't handle that they were right and you were wrong

Oh shush! i have my opinion and they have theirs! no need to be a dick about it.

you call out genres you so clearly have invested no time into

I didn't know you were psychic.

And of course my argument is biased, you idiot.

Oh thank God you finally came clean with ad-hominem attacks! i was seriously holding back because i wasn't sure about your ambiguous passive aggressive arguments but now i know that you're just an immature guy with little man syndrome.

but I'm doing my best to present my argument while also considering the other side of it, thus bringing forth points which account for both halves of the issue and expanding my insights of it by proxy. That's called a debate, something you clearly aren't skilled in.

Maybe i just have a communication error but that doesn't mean i didn't consider anyone's opinion.. i certainly did agree with some of the points made like indie game library being saturated with crappy games and sure the way i get my points my across may not be the best but that doesn't mean i'm completely disregarding what everyone is saying.. i'm replying to everyone's posts FFS if i was just ignoring then i wouldn't quote and reply their post.

And No offense but you're the one who seems like an amateur debater as you're so easily offended and emotionally worked up over someone's hyperbole posts.

But I'm not forcing my opinions down everyone else's throat as though I'm entitled to do so, like you are

nowhere did i imply that everyone should agree with me.. everyone is free to have their own opinions and disagree with me,you're just getting worked up for no apparent reason mate!

Yes, because you are the sole force which can say for absolute certain which things are fun and which ones are not. Because you so clearly are correct where the other seven billion people on the planet are wrong. Because your rights as an individual somehow equates higher than the individual opinions and rights of the rest of us.

I knew you were psychic but...why are you reading your own mind?

You arrogant prick, just shut the fuck up with that spiel already.

AAH! what a riveting argument! i give up! i am too feeble to match your intellectual prowess and verbal beatdowns!

Ah please "let's agree to disagree" so that we can be friends and you can stop acting like you're on the rag! or are you too edgy for that?

you appear to be the only one who thinks so.

AH PLEASE stop reading everyone's mind for fuck's sake Xavier! its not fair!

And really? You think I'm a gaming CEO? Joke or not, that's fucking hilarious.

Well of course mister! the way you really seem to believe that you have this "better preservative"  and know it all attitude sure as hell made it seem like you're some smug CEO chewing on cigar looking down upon peasants like me sure i could've just called you just another internet tough guy but i was being generous or sarcastic (however you take it).

otherwise you're going to get publicly curb-stomped, and depending on who you piss off, even more heavily than what I just did.

Well i'm certainly impressed that my hyperbole posts managed to tick someone off this much,i wonder how much i can rile people up when i do intend to

You're really beginning to piss me off, and I'm sure you've rustled a few other people's jimmies too.

Of course! there are obviously a lot of immature people online who get butthurt and offended pretty damn easily and they're kinda amusing to me because i've seen people online who've debated on ultra-sensitive topics and kept their cool the whole way through despite all the tensions and misunderstandings. these people make all those butthurt people look like 12 yr olds.

But alas you made me admit defeat with your razor sharp debating skills! i am simply no match for someone as enlightened as you!

[Dracula9]

>resorting to insults
>admitting miscommunication but still arguing
>offering the 'let's agree to disagree' while still arguing
>holding up olive branch and sword at the same time

[ROCKMAN X]

I can't help but say: I see you have this hatred for the massive influx of action games in this generation and yet you are complaining on a fan forum that celebrates an action game.

games differ from generation to generation...

NES-SNES era is known for platformers,RPG's and sidescrollers and shoot'em'up games
PS1-PS2 era is known for its insanely diverse 3d platformers,JRPG's,Sandbox,survival horror,hack'n'slash,stealth,action-adventure(not shooters) and puzzle games! shooters were just "there" as one of the options so everyone was happy back then.

PS3/360 era is only known for HD graphics and  shit ton of shooters and holllywood movie mimics.

Yeah my hate is quite justified because i didn't ask for this influx of hollywood-esque shooters i want the diversity back! i don't want one type of game to dominate the market.

I don't know what logic dictates that Shooter = action pretty much every game that isn't a puzzle  game has some sort of "Action" that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with shooters.

True true, the bigger stompers have largely ignored this post so far.

Damn.. there are more "Intellectuals" like @dracula9 out there?? damn i'm fucked!

that you shouldn't push biased arguments if you had an argument to begin with.

I think you almost forgot that you are free to disagree.

Pretty much sums it up. This isn't the Highlander. There can be more than one. 

Well the irony in that statement is that AAA gaming is making it seem like there can be only one type of game.. "cinematic",formulaic,streamlined casual magnet games... whereas indie game actually makes it seem like there CAN BE more than one type of game!

Indie gaming makes it seem like there can be diversity in the next gen! so there can be only one.. either 8th gen will repeat the 7th gen or it may actually be different.

[Dracula9]

[ROCKMAN X]

>resorting to insults
>admitting miscommunication but still arguing
>offering the 'let's agree to disagree' while still arguing
>holding up olive branch and sword at the same time

>Can dish it out but can't take it
>Realizes his false accusations but still acts like he has a point
>Can't seem to comprehend sarcasm
>Can't seem to understand what a playful banter is supposed to be.

[Dracula9]

>misusing greentext

[Gunlord]

Alright, Dracula, no popcorn or anything like that, just let the conversation drop and ignore it if you don't think there's anything constructive to be had. Rockman, you too. Both of you, no greentext nonsense, keep that on 4chan.

[Dracula9]

*puts up hands*

Fair enough.

[Belmontoya]

Rockman

You're always free to go back and play your ps1 era games. They are still for sale and part of the gaming market today, in addition to everything that has come before them and after.

By choosing to look at the current new library of games in such a slighted, one sided manner, you are only missing out. I see way more diversity in games nowadays than I did in the PS1 era. And I was a gamer long before that era came about.

We're all going to be moving on happy with what is out there and what is coming out. You're the one who is bitter and unhappy because you choose to be mired in the past.

I pity you Rockman. Your posts are pointlessly depressing and exhausting and riddled with untruths. So I'm choosing never to read them again.

Good day sir.

[Dracula9]

Well said, Montoya.

I'm going to chime in on this one final time, only because I realize I hadn't brought this point up before, when I probably should have.

Rockman, obviously this is a forum argument, so this next statement should be taken with a grain of salt; but if this were a legitimate, structured, and judged debate, you'd have been thrown out of it three posts in. Over the course of the thread you've committed nearly every major logical fallacy in the book, and although I've been guilty of a few of the easy-to-make ones myself, it's something I think needs to be noted, for your part just as well as mine.

So far, I can argue that you've committed;
Dicto simpliciter, with your generalizing
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc, by trying to say that one thing is equal/connected to another just because you believe it to be so
Circulus in demonstrando, by your incessant circular logic
Red herring, by bringing up points that had no bearing on the context
Argumentum ad populum, by using third-party articles of speech to suggest that the masses do or should feel the same way you do (no amount of supporters automatically justifies a cause, after all)
Argumentum ad antiquitatem, because of your heavy usage of a supposed 'golden age' of gaming, you're relying on the argument of 'we should stick to the traditional method'
Slippery slope, by assuming that the current trend will ruin future ones solely on the premise that you don't like it
Argumentum ad ignorantiam, simply by assuming yourself right just because nobody's provided completely irrefutable evidence against your argument
Argumentum ad logicam, by assuming an entire argument is wrong simply because one or two of its points have been refuted
Tu quoque, by telling myself and others "hey! You did this too! You're just as wrong as you say I am!"
Argumentum ad misericordiam, by trying to use the appeal of "oh, the poor suffering gamer kids of today!"
Argumentum ad nauseam, by somehow believing that repeating the same point over and over somehow increases its credibility
Argumentum ad numerum, by relying on numbers and statistics that are too generalized and not defended well enough to be considered valid, and also by using the appeal of 'but lots of people feel this way, you know, so I must be right!'
Non Sequitur, with your constant state of 'I don't like this, therefore it's wrong and must be reestablished"
Strawman, by twisting various arguments to their extreme so that you can use them against their orators
Argumentum ad hominem, for going after specific people rather than their argument


I myself admit to being guilty of ad hominem, ad nauseum, red herring, and dicto simpliciter. My apologies to you and the thread for not building around these fallacies. I guess taking that debate class was good for something after all.

But that's all. I don't really need to go any further. I just wanted to point out that in a true debate setting, your argument's poor construction would have quickly resulted in its destruction.

[Shiroi Koumori]

@Dracula9: Oh gosh... those things bring me back to my critical thinking and philosophy classes.
Taking a debate class/es will always be good for you in the long run, not just in this situation.

I think this topic should be given it's well deserved rest since everyone already presented their sides and there's no use going in circles. Eventually it would end up with the Diffusion of Innovations Theory which I presented back in page 2.

INTJ out.
Unless you kiddies start another round of stupid bickering.