Topic: why weren't Hector y Isaac vampires?

[crisis]

lets speculate shall we?

its been yeears since i've played curse Of Darkness however i don't believe it was ever explained in any source material why Vlad never turned his top 2 generals into fellow nosferatu. i kinda see Devil Forgemasters as Draculas "heralds" in a sense. therefore wouldnt it have made more sense if they were turned? perhaps there were other DFs in the previous centuries prior to CVIII*...

any theories :/



*woulda made grate game material too. like a cv game taking place in 1256, Prunyuu Belmont fighting the latest devil Forgemaster only at the end of the game he says "sorry but Dracula is in another castle" wash rinse repeat

[X]

You'd think that Dracula would have turned them into vampires. This would have been especially helpful in quelling any rebellious thoughts Hector might have had, thus preventing him from turning sides. But I guess uniquely powerful mortals are somewhat overlooked by Dracula when it comes to making vampire. It might be a personal rule of thumb for him. Then again having them become vampires might negatively effect their abilities as devil forge masters ei greatly weaken them considerably which Dracula would not want for any war effort on his part.

[theplottwist]

My guess is much simple-r than yours:

Dracula didn't turn them into vampires because humans can accomplish things that a vampire can't, such as walking through the day and hiding/spying amongst other humans easily. Plus, they can enter sacred places and resist holy attacks.

Dracula may be powerful beyond all reason as a Dark Lord, but he still can't take a sunbath, face the cross without dropping his disguise or step inside a church. He's still a vampire.

No convoluted hypothesis here.

[X]

No convoluted hypothesis here.

Then why ask? 

Also, putting castlevania's (and Hollywood's) influences aside, Dracula can move about during the daylight hours though it is not his natural time. He was able to do this in Bram Stoker's Dracula. Plus the whole idea of vampires dying from sunlight was first invented in the movie Nosferatu. You know this to be true as well    Before Nosferatu no vampire ever died from sun exposure. They were weak but did not die.

[zangetsu468]

The question is why wouldn't Dracula have turned all the creatures under his influence/ command into Vampires? We rarely see an abundance of other vampires in CV games.

However, there could be many reasons for why he didn't. Perhaps they were hard at work forging all sorts of entities and turning them into Vampires would've incurred regular feeding rituals which may have hampered their productivity.

More than likely turning them into creatures of the night would limit the types of magic they could have at their disposal. Supposedly with a "tainted soul" you would be limited to using dark magic, whereas Hector seems to be able to create beings such as fairies etc, which are not necessarily beings of darkness or beings made from darkness/ dark magic. The process of Devil Forgemastership seems in essence to be, alchemical. This is reinforced by the ancient sage Eneomaos leaving various hints to forging innocent devils, clues which can only be deciphered by the Tiramisu (fairy type innocent devil).

If nothing else it helps my personal theory that Eneomaos is St Germain, master if Alchemy. This is how he knew and documented so much about forging devils. The fact he was able to travel through time and only 'interfere' to a certain extent leads me to believe that he left those clues partly if not solely to assist Hector's success against "Isaacula". It's no coincidence imo the Eneomaos machine tower's theme is 'time' and also the place where St Germain challenges Hector, manipulating time etc. He was also imprisoned there by Zed, but is it not so convenient that this occurred just so that Hector could arrive, free him and then accept his challenge?

[Nagumo]

I can't think of a good reason other than indifference on Dracula's part. Interestingly, I don't think he ever turned anyone into a vampire who wasn't a woman. There are those Draculinas, Annette in the bad ending, and Alucard calls Carmilla "Dracula's play thing" in Judgment. If I would attempt to explain it, I probably would approach it from that angle.

By the way, I noticed something interesting in the CoD manga. There's this flashback sequence with Isaac and it's about him seeking out Dracula for the first time. At some point he is spewing some exposition and he says Dracula is someone "who gained eternal life and surpassed all human knowledge". It's implied Isaac came to Dracula to learn some of the dark magic he obtained in past 300 years. Anyway, later Isaac has an encounter with a Succubus in Dracula's castle. Afterwards he scoffs at the fact that the Succubus is a low-class demon, who "can be controlled by mastering the devil arts." Which got me thinking, was Dracula teaching Hector and Isaac the Power of Dominance? If so, it would make sense why Devil Forgemasters are generals.

[Mystic Myotis]

Honestly I sometimes wondered if Hector was actually human just because some of his dialogue seems to indicate that he sees himself as being apart from humans. *shrugs*

But that said, I think he did not turn them because he had no reason to give them vampiric powers/weaknesses and both seemed to be loyal so he had no reason to do it.

[Shiroi Koumori]

@Gaawa: I think Hector is still human but since he is doing evil stuff, he sees himself as something other than a human.

[Belmont Stakes]

There are a few things are at play here. Apparently, vampires at least those higher than a Succubus don't seem to take to being slaves very positively. Walter imprisoned Jaochim probably seeing him as a serious threat should he get his hands on the Ebony or Crimson stones. Please note that noone got the Philosopher's Stone in LOI. There seems to be a plot hole there. So apparently Vampires are not all that loyal to their own despite the Ann Rice rule. Matthias must have observed this prior to stealing Walter's soul. Also Alucard himself rejected his vampiric lineage using it against his father. Knowing this was a possibility Dracula kept the Forgemaster human should he have to use their fitness for his reawakening.

[zangetsu468]

There are a few things are at play here. Apparently, vampires at least those higher than a Succubus don't seem to take to being slaves very positively. Walter imprisoned Jaochim probably seeing him as a serious threat should he get his hands on the Ebony or Crimson stones. Please note that noone got the Philosopher's Stone in LOI. There seems to be a plot hole there.

The first part makes sense but why a plot hole? There were 4 stones of Alchemy; 2 were mentioned in LOI. Presumably the 2 unmentioned stones are the philosopher's stone (white) and the emerald stone (green) which along with the 2 mentioned being emerald (black) and crimson (red) signify the 4 cardinal points. However, this is never specified and the only being thought to have possessed all the stones at some point in time - due to being known for mastering Alchemy - is Saint Germain. 

[AlexCalvo]

The Curse of Darkness manga made it very clear that at least Hector was somehow tainted by darkness.  There was something not quite right about him from the beginning, something that made dark creatures and demons seek him out.  I always kind of felt that a devil forgemaster couldn't be just anyone.  Like they had to be a certain type of being, tainted in just the right way, and maybe something like becoming a vampire would alter that in some way, actually lowering their potential.  Or maybe the uniqueness mixed with vampirism could potentially make them too powerful?  I doubt Dracula wants followers who could potentially usurp his power one day.

On a side note, we don't really know a whole lot about how vampirism works in the Castlevania universe.  The only time we've seen anyone start to turn, they are killed (Sara) or cured (Dorin) before the change completes.  The one exception being Mathias, who for very obvious reasons was likely to have a very different experience then most.  Maybe freshly turned vampires are mentally weak or overly dependent on their masters... Carmilla always seemed little more then a pet, so who knows.

[Belmont Stakes]

The first part makes sense but why a plot hole? There were 4 stones of Alchemy; 2 were mentioned in LOI. Presumably the 2 unmentioned stones are the philosopher's stone (white) and the emerald stone (green) which along with the 2 mentioned being emerald (black) and crimson (red) signify the 4 cardinal points. However, this is never specified and the only being thought to have possessed all the stones at some point in time - due to being known for mastering Alchemy - is Saint Germain.

In LOI only the Ebony Crimson and Philosophers stones are mentioned. The Ebony Stone I am assuming was worn by Walter and shattered when Leon used the Vampire Killer on him. The Crimson stone was wielded by Matthias who made Walter's soul his with the stones power thus becoming an immortal and a vampire.....BUT!!!!!
As quoted by Rinaldo it's the Philosopher's Stone that grants eternal life but bestows the wearer with the vampires curse. If it takes the other stones to make the Philosopher's stone Matthias should not be a vampire unless the rules of alchemy apply that I don't know about which is very possible. I know nothing about the metallurgic arts & I ain't no smithy per say but I am predisposed to a life of aimless wanderin'. And cue the BlueGrass with guitar accompaniment.

[zangetsu468]

In LOI only the Ebony Crimson and Philosophers stones are mentioned. The Ebony Stone I am assuming was worn by Walter and shattered when Leon used the Vampire Killer on him. The Crimson stone was wielded by Matthias who made Walter's soul his with the stones power thus becoming an immortal and a vampire.....BUT!!!!!
As quoted by Rinaldo it's the Philosopher's Stone that grants eternal life but bestows the wearer with the vampires curse. If it takes the other stones to make the Philosopher's stone Matthias should not be a vampire unless the rules of alchemy apply that I don't know about which is very possible. I know nothing about the metallurgic arts & I ain't no smithy per say but I am predisposed to a life of aimless wanderin'. And cue the BlueGrass with guitar accompaniment.

The Philosopher's Stone grants 'eternal youth' according to Rinaldo. The Philosopher's stone does not bestow the curse of the vampire to the wielder, that is the Crimson stone only!

Rinaldo Gandolfi: Making the Philosopher's Stone is the ultimate goal of alchemy... It provides eternal youth. The two other stones were apparently created accidentally. No details of how they were made remain now.
Leon Belmont: I see... I know about the Ebony Stone. What kind of power does the Crimson Stone have?
Rinaldo Gandolfi: I don't know the details. It turns the souls of vampires into power for its master. These two stones are the vampires' greatest treasures.
Leon Belmont: Wouldn't the Crimson Stone work for humans as well?
Rinaldo Gandolfi: If all it gave you was power, that might be so...
Leon Belmont: What do you mean?
Rinaldo Gandolfi: I've heard that it bears the curse of the vampires as well.
Leon Belmont: I see... So humanity would be lost.
Rinaldo Gandolfi: There are no greater treasures for those who become vampires.

[Belmont Stakes]

Wow I am developing early onset Alzheimers. Sorry about that. Ok, so does it mention anything about what the Ebony stone's power is? While we are at it, does the Devil Forgemaster's power derive in any way from some alchemical knowledge? It seems like conjuring beings from near nothingness implies it or maybe I have been watching too much Full Metal.

[zangetsu468]

Wow I am developing early onset Alzheimers. Sorry about that. Ok, so does it mention anything about what the Ebony stone's power is?

From my understanding the Ebony stone causes eternal night i.e. Walter's Castle. This is why Rinaldo states "There are no greater treasures [plural] for those who become vampires." when Leon asks "I know about the Ebony Stone. What kind of power does the Crimson Stone have?"
After Leon defeats Walter you see/ hear something shattering, which is the Ebony Stone. This is why all of a sudden after Mathias' spiel, daybreak happens and Mathias flees leaving Death to face Leon.

It is thought that Dracula (Mathias) in all instances after this has both stones which is why the Castle or at least Dracula's throne room seems to always be encased in night. Whether he obtained the Ebony Stone from also absorbing Walter's soul and only it's power was destroyed when Leon bested Walter is a whole other question.

While we are at it, does the Devil Forgemaster's power derive in any way from some alchemical knowledge? It seems like conjuring beings from near nothingness implies it or maybe I have been watching too much Full Metal.

This is exactly what I was saying earlier in the thread. The inclusion of Saint Germain Master Alchemist, the Ancient Sage Eneomoas (which funnily enough spells "A some one" or "some Aeon") who left clues on devilforgemastership, along with the process of forging beings and so forth seems to infer an alchemical process. There's nothing specifically demonic about it and it is noted in other games that Dracula has dominion over holy/ angelic beings and not just demons, such as the holy archers in SOTN's Anti-Chapel.

What I'm confused about is why Trevor couldn't defeat Isaac in that first CGI cutscene where they fight. Maybe he wasn't giving it his all, but he defeated Dracula (with help) who was much stronger prior to the events of COD. Later he was stabbed in the back by Isaac in a sneak attack. I would think by default that given the Belmont's legendary power, if Trevor wanted to he could have destroyed Isaac in their first encounter.