Topic: The Hunter Whip

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Only seen in one noncanon (to the main timeline, at least) entry, Circle of the Moon, the Hunter Whip is the chosen weapon of Morris Baldwin (at first) before he passed it along to Nathan Graves some time before the events of the game. While it begins as a simple leather whip, over time and the collection of DSS cards, it becomes the single most versatile and powerful weapon in Castlevania, able to take on dozens of forms, from wreathing itself in cosmic elements like flames, ice, or the void itself, changing into swords, axes, and spears (even an absurdly powerful handgun!), becoming full bodied summoned creatures that appear briefly yet powerfully, and even changing Nathan himself into a skeleton or a... teddy bear... thing!

The power of the Hunter Whip is almost as varied as the user's imagination, and if we understand the DSS cards to simply be a gameplay metaphor for Nathan's growing mastery of the whip (especially as they are not once mentioned in dialog), imagination and focus may in fact be the only limit this weapon rightfully has. Whatever similarities the the Vampire Killer of legend the Hunter Whip may initially possess, it is clearly in a class all of its own by the time it is fully mastered, having surpassed the Vampire Killer's potential for sheer destruction long before.

I have some thoughts as to what the whip is, and indeed its origin.

While there is nothing spoken in game about the specific nature of the Hunter Whip, its basic traits seem to align well with the Whip of Alchemy wielded by Leon Belmont in 1094, especially as that whip was able to change its elemental nature as well with some swappable applied phlebotinum before becoming the Vampire Killer. In addition (and I fully admit this is reaching at straws) Trevor Belmont's gameplay mode in Curse of Darkness (combined with gameplay elements from Juste Belmont in Harmony of Dissonance) imply that it is still capable of doing this depending on specialized tips added to the weapon. If anything, the greatest difference is that the Hunter Whip changes to greater degrees and does so without any add-on parts.

This leads me to believe that the Hunter Whip was created as a perfection of Rinaldo Gandolfi's original research, perhaps by him directly, or simply a gifted Alchemist picking up after him. It's clearly everything Gandolfi could have wished his own weapon to be originally. This does assume heavily that Lament of Innocence (or a version of those events at any rate) occurred within Circle of the Moon's timeline as well, but in my mind it seems to fit: that the Hunter Whip is an offshoot/refinement/perfection of the research that created the original Whip of Alchemy, a sort of cousin to the Vampire Killer that while exceedingly difficult to master can be wielded by anyone (or almost anyone) without the need for a Lecardeian Unlocking Ritual. The sheer potential of the weapon remains mind-boggling, and Dracula and his ilk might be better off staying dead if someone with a firm mastery of the Hunter Whip is keeping watch.

It's a shame we didn't see more of it, but then again, the single vague appearance and description is what made this theory possible in the first place so... silver linings.

[X]

The Hunter Whip is a unique weapon. But I never did think that the entire DSS library was the whip itself. Sure we see the elemental traits with the whip when using the DSS but I think that's as far as it goes. In terms of swords, spells, shields, and the gun, I believe that they stem from Nathan himself when using the cards. A physical manifestation of magic that the DSS system allows for. I also never considered the Hunter Whip to be separate from the Vampirekiller either. Granted this was before I learned the CotM was a CV Gaiden rather then a part of the main series. However in my headcanon the Hunter Whip and the Vampirekiller and one and the same. And That Nathan is the son of the Daughter of Richter and Annet Belmont. In short, CotM (for me anyways) is an alternate universe setting.

[The Puritan]

I see it as a pretty successful attempt to recreate the Vampire Killer after the Belmonts disappeared.

Of course, I've never been clear about COTM's "gaiden" relation to the IGA canon.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I've never been clear about COTM's "gaiden" relation to the IGA canon.

The "gaiden" relation is that is has no relation. COTM is its own thing entirely. For all we know, the Belmonts may not even exist in its world -- they're certainly never mentioned in the game.

I generally throw Legends, COTM, Order of Shadows, and the N64 Vanias all in as one entirely distinct timeline (which I dub the "Gaidenvania" timeline), with games like the original Castlevania occurring where they don't conflict to provide common points of reference. As per my opening post, I'm also willing to assume that Lament of Innocence (or some variation of it) also occurred to kickstart the whole thing. Maybe it happened differently; perhaps Mathias was not the one who became Dracula in this timeline, and someone even less prone to sympathy did instead. That would be a reasonable divergence from the main canon that would certainly alter everything going forward in big ways, resulting in the very different "Gaidenvania" timeline wherein the Belmonts seem to be rarer and not quite as legendary -- the main family may even be extinct by the early 1800's, which would explain why Reinhardt Schneider - a guy from a branch family like the Morris clan in the main timeline - is wielding the Vampire Killer instead, and no pure blooded Belmonts are implied in any of those games.

But alas, I am rambling.

I see it as a pretty successful attempt to recreate the Vampire Killer after the Belmonts disappeared.

This is also a workable theory if COTM's unseen backstory is closer to the Igavanias than we are informed by the game. COTM is very deliberately ambiguous about it's backstory. We know it's similar to the main timeline in general broad strokes, but the specific degrees of similarity are utterly unknown and I get the feeling that KCEK wanted it that way as it freed them up to work outside of the constraints of continuity (not that it mattered much).

I generally feel that the Hunter Whip was created more out of an idea that "The Vampire Killer is a mighty weapon, but it only really seems to be usable by people related by blood to a certain family, and even if anyone could use it, there's still only one in existence. That's a problem if a powerful Vampire rises and the wielder of the VK is on the other end of Europe dealing with some other problem. There should be more weapons of that caliber so that the people are defended no matter where evil rises up."

It's meant to be a similarly powerful backup arsenal, by my reckoning.

[zangetsu468]

COTM is the disconnected to the series in my eyes, along with Haunted Castle.
This is precisely why I place them in an alternate timeline where the two games may or may not be related to one another.

The only real connection back to any other Belmonts or whip-wielding vampire hunters is the whip itself. Having said this it's not the "Vampire Killer" and it is not necessary that Belmonts are connected to any of the COTM characters.

It's interesting that it's still listed in Iga's chronology with the other games in the "non-official timeline" https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3793/10685762635_4671c0dd84_o.jpg

[TheTextGuy]

I also always saw CoTM as a sort of alternate universe Castlevania.  To me, it shares the main villain being Dracula and the protagonist being a whip wielder, but it's disconnected from the other games in terms of timeline or story.  I would've liked to see a continuation or a prequel to CoTM.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

The thing about the noncanon games is that any narrative relation to the others is, at best, sketchy as all hell.

But once upon a time, that was pretty much true of the entire series before Iga tried setting up a definitive canon.

Like I said previously, I think there's enough in the collective noncanon entries that they could arguably make their own canon, essentially making three distinct timelines: the Igavanias, Gaidenvanias, and Lords of Shadow universe. Of course, the gaiden games could also just be their own things, disconnected from everything else, but it helps me to think of them as a sub-series of their own, and much of my fanfiction works them together (including one featuring a main character who was descended from Reinhardt Schneider, was named after Sonia Belmont, and meets Alucard who becomes something of a mentor to her. Before you ask, no I don't have it anymore).

[coinilius]

I have discussed Circle of the Moon before and although it is not part of the IGA timeline, I personally do prefer to think of it as a legitimate entry into the Castlevania timeline as far as my 'head canon' goes, taking place in that time period where the Belmont's were in hiding/unable to use the Vampire Killer. 

My take on the Hunter Whip, by extension, is that it is an attempt to create a new Whip of Alchemy, another weapon that could be used against Dracula and probably created during the events 10 years prior to CoTM where Nathan's parents were killed. 

[zangetsu468]

I have discussed Circle of the Moon before and although it is not part of the IGA timeline, I personally do prefer to think of it as a legitimate entry into the Castlevania timeline as far as my 'head canon' goes, taking place in that time period where the Belmont's were in hiding/unable to use the Vampire Killer. 

My take on the Hunter Whip, by extension, is that it is an attempt to create a new Whip of Alchemy, another weapon that could be used against Dracula and probably created during the events 10 years prior to CoTM where Nathan's parents were killed.

I understand your positioning in the timeline, but why does the game take place in Austria at Carmilla's castle when the title is Castlevania/ Akumajo Dracula?

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I understand your positioning in the timeline, but why does the game take place in Austria at Carmilla's castle when the title is Castlevania/ Akumajo Dracula?

Because Demon Castle Carmilla doesn't have the selling power. That's all.

[zangetsu468]

In the event that this game is part of your head canon then why would you not just assume the "hunter whip" is the unawakened VK?

If the Baldwin> Graves were around during the time the Belmonts weren't this makes sense without a convoluted explanation. POR is grounds enough to support this theory.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

In the event that this game is part of your head canon then why would you not just assume the "hunter whip" is the unawakened VK?

If the Baldwin> Graves were around during the time the Belmonts weren't this makes sense without a convoluted explanation. POR is grounds enough to support this theory.

Because the Hunter Whip goes completely beyond the capabilities of the Vampire Killer, as described by

able to take on dozens of forms, from wreathing itself in cosmic elements like flames, ice, or the void itself, changing into swords, axes, and spears (even an absurdly powerful handgun!), becoming full bodied summoned creatures that appear briefly yet powerfully, and even changing Nathan himself into a skeleton or a... teddy bear... thing!

All the things that any other Castlevania character can do, via collecting weapons or magic-in-the-blood, the Hunter Whip can potentially do by itself -- it's like a damn power bank containing the abilities of every Castlevania protaganist.

Hugh wants the weapon for himself, partially because the previous wielder was his father but mostly because it has tremendous power and potential that he feels he is best suited to wield. He's basically Sesshomaru from Inuyasha coveting his brother's Tessaiga (for exactly the same reasons). Now, the Vampire Killer has incredible power, but only against specific kinds of foes (those ruled by evil in their hearts). A guy like Hugh wouldn't covet such a weapon for its power because the power is that much less useful to them. And if it were a LOCKED Vampire Killer, it would just be a simple whip and therefore be ABSOLUTELY USELESS to Hugh. And Nathan.

Hence, I refer you back to this bit of my opening post:

its basic traits seem to align well with the Whip of Alchemy ... especially as that whip was able to change its elemental nature as well with some swappable applied phlebotinum before becoming the Vampire Killer. ... ...Trevor Belmont's gameplay mode in Curse of Darkness (combined with gameplay elements from Juste Belmont in Harmony of Dissonance) imply that it is still capable of doing this depending on specialized tips added to the weapon. If anything, the greatest difference is that the Hunter Whip changes to greater degrees and does so without any add-on parts.

This leads me to believe that the Hunter Whip was created as a perfection of Rinaldo Gandolfi's original research, perhaps by him directly, or simply a gifted Alchemist picking up after him. ... ...but in my mind it seems to fit: that the Hunter Whip is an offshoot/refinement/perfection of the research that created the original Whip of Alchemy, a sort of cousin to the Vampire Killer that while exceedingly difficult to master can be wielded by anyone (or almost anyone) without the need for a Lecardeian Unlocking Ritual.

[AlexCalvo]

I don't see any reason whatsoever to think that the powers don't come from the DSS cards.  It just seems like head canon justification, which is fine if you can admit that's what it is.  It is the DSS cards, this is evident by the fact that only the mars, diana, and mercury cards even effect the whip at all, while the other combinations effect Nathan directly, or produce summons.  The DSS cards are the power house, not the hunter whip.

[theplottwist]

I don't see any reason whatsoever to think that the powers don't come from the DSS cards.  It just seems like head canon justification, which is fine if you can admit that's what it is.  It is the DSS cards, this is evident by the fact that only the mars, diana, and mercury cards even effect the whip at all, while the other combinations effect Nathan directly, or produce summons.  The DSS cards are the power house, not the hunter whip.

Ditto. But...

I view the DSS cards as just a gameplay element-- they represent the powers that a given wielder has available to them acquired through mastery of the weapon. There's nothing to suggest that they actually exist as physical objects in-game (nothing in the way of dialog, for instance).

And no one can deny that once the full power of the Hunter Whip is unlocked, it can pretty much destroy EVERYTHING with very little effort.

...which FOR ME holds no water, to be honest. If the DSS cards were not a real thing, then the system would not exist in the first place. They'd just make it the "Hunter Whip System" where the Hunter Whip goes about unlocking abilities as you level up.

Now, the Vampire Killer has incredible power, but only against specific kinds of foes (those ruled by evil in their hearts)

This also doesn't add up. Alucard was defeated by Trevor Belmont using the Vampire Killer - and Alucard isn't evil. Same with Hector - took a beating from Trevor with the whip even though he wasn't evil.

The VK's power is highly effective against everything related to the darkness - evil or not - and I'd say it's be pretty darn useful power for any hunter to have. But of course, we have that pesky Belmont-only restriction put on it.

[zangetsu468]

I have to agree with Alex on this.