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Offline theplottwist

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No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« on: November 12, 2016, 10:37:49 PM »
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This one I had realized long ago, but after a discussion over Youtube with a stranger and some discussions I had here, I decided to try and clarify this subject here, where the Castlevania think-tank is done:

Barlowe was not intentionally trying to resurrect Dracula at first, and he's NOT Dracula's vessel.

To explain better: In Order of Ecclesia, after Barlowe is defeated and Dracula is revived, his enemy entry reads "A pitiable madman, his body is now Dracula's vessel." So this would answer beyond any doubt that Barlowe became Dracula's vessel, right? No.

Barlowe's description in japanese not only clears his intentions, but never once says anything about "vessels." It reads:

Japanese: ドラキュラの意思に取り込まれ狂気に堕ちた哀れな男
English: A pitiable man who was drawn in by Dracula's will/intention and fell into insanity.

So, here you have what appears to be one more of the numerous mistranslated ideas on the english-localized Castlevanias. Not only it says nothing about vessels, but it also quite clearly says that Barlowe was taken by Dracula's influence, much like Albus was from handling Dominus. I'm open to be proved wrong, though, by the forum's japanese speakers.

"But Plot, you're not thinking clearly, for you see, Barlowe's body is gone when the vessel breaks open. Obviously Dracula has taken over it."

This has a pretty clear explanation provided by Dracula X Chronicles' intro. When someone is sacrificed for Dracula's resurrection, their entire body vanishes, clothing and all, and absolutelly nothing is left. The person is quite literally consumed entirely by Dracula all at once. Furthermore, in Order of Ecclesia, we learn that Dracula's bodily remains are contained within that vessel -- things able to reconstitute his body when the time is right. So he is not using a human vessel to incarnate, he's reviving with his own body.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 11:55:11 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2016, 01:41:30 AM »
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I never even bothered to check if Barlowe's description was correct. What an odd thing to put into a translation. Though it was always a bit odd it was never brought up during any of the dialogue. This reinforces the idea even more that the English translations of the game cannot be trusted. So I guess the only time Dracula ever used a vessel was in 1479?

By the way, I'll raise you one better: unlike what the English version of Aria of Sorrow states, Chaos is not the source of Dracula's power. It's the personification of Dracula's will/intention (and all the negative emotions of humans).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 01:43:09 AM by Nagumo »

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2016, 01:58:31 AM »
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Quote
No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."

Agreed. I never once thought otherwise. Barlow simply sacrificed his life in order to resurrect Dracula Since Shanoa was  unwilling to be the sacrifice herself.
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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2016, 02:45:22 AM »
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By the way, I'll raise you one better: unlike what the English version of Aria of Sorrow states, Chaos is not the source of Dracula's power. It's the personification of Dracula's will/intention (and all the negative emotions of humans).

Chaos as in triangle-angel greenball eyeball dragon boss from White-Out Land with signature move Steal Your Powers and Shit, or chaos as in naturally or instigated bedlam?


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Offline Nagumo

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2016, 11:41:28 AM »
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Chaos as in triangle-angel greenball eyeball dragon boss from White-Out Land with signature move Steal Your Powers and Shit, or chaos as in naturally or instigated bedlam?

The former. For some reason Chaos is said to be the source of Dracula's power, but this is not what is said in the Japanese version at all. Chaos is the personification of the evil in human's hearts and it's what causes Dracula's evil side to be amplified. Regarding what actually constitutes Dracula's power, from what I understand, this consists of two things: the Power of Dominance which is an inherent part of Dracula's soul, and the various abilities he accumulated over the years.   

Offline theplottwist

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2016, 12:07:49 PM »
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So I guess the only time Dracula ever used a vessel was in 1479?

I think so. And it turned out to be a bad idea, it seems. We learn on Curse of Darkness that one needs to be both influenced by Dracula's will and sufused on Dracula's magic to work as a vessel. On Order of Ecclesia there's only one person that could potentially fit the bill: Albus. Shanoa is infused with Dracula's magic, but not influenced by his will. Barlowe is influenced by his will, but never once sufused with Dracula's magic (remember: he never once wears Dominus!) before he dies.

We know in this series that being influenced by Dracula's will and being infused with his magic are two separate, very different things, and again, that both must take place so the person can become a vessel for Dracula. Barlowe fits one, but not the other.

Chaos is the personification of the evil in human's hearts and it's what causes Dracula's evil side to be amplified. Regarding what actually constitutes Dracula's power, from what I understand, this consists of two things: the Power of Dominance which is an inherent part of Dracula's soul, and the various abilities he accumulated over the years.

I'm aware of this, but this:

Quote
Chaos is not the source of Dracula's power. It's the personification of Dracula's will/intention (and all the negative emotions of humans).

Doesn't appear to be correct. Mostly because the opposite is precisely what the Ricordanza novel says: Chaos is the embodiment of humans' collective evil AND the source of Dracula's power/regenerative cycle. I'll be pasting a piece of Shiroi's translation:

“As I’ve said, I would equally gain control over the human world and the source of Dracula’s power, chaos. I do not intend to obey someone else’s mind aside from my own. That includes you [Death] who were born out of chaos.

His Castle is the symbol of his power/magic, and was woven out of Chaos, exactly as Alucard says in Symphony both in japanese and english. I don't have access to Aria's japanese script (yet), but I do have access to Dawn's japanese Library, and it also confirms the same: The castle is what is the symbol of his power, not Chaos. Once it was locked within the eclipse, Dracula was torn off from his magic (which again implies that Chaos is Dracula's power source with the castle serving as this power's symbol):

ドラキュラが完全に滅びる事になった戦い。
ノストラダムスの予言、恐怖の大王はドラキュラを意味していた。
しかし、この戦いで日本にある白馬神社の神主の力により、ドラキュラの魔力の象徴であるドラキュラ城が日食に封じられる。
これにより、ドラキュラの魂と魔力が引き剥がされ、復活の運命から解き放たれた。

Furthermore, Chaos can't be a creation of Dracula, because Death existed before Dracula was even a thing. Even if Shiroi has embelished the line above about Chaos being Dracula's power source (which I don't believe to be the case), the novel confirms multiple times that Death was born from Chaos along with all other demons and monsters, which also have existed before Dracula did, as we know from Lament of Innocence.

I'll be checking the japanese script of Aria to learn more about this.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 01:47:50 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Guy Belmont

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2016, 02:31:11 PM »
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Sorry, where do you get the Japanese
I'll be checking the japanese script of Aria to learn more about this.


where do you get your scrip from? Is there a site, or do you have to buy it.
sorry this is off topic, but they'd be good to have. lament of innocence in particular, as its will be very helpful for that project I'm working. Again sorry for  cutting in here.
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Offline theplottwist

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2016, 02:47:53 PM »
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Sorry, where do you get the Japanese

where do you get your scrip from? Is there a site, or do you have to buy it.
sorry this is off topic, but they'd be good to have. lament of innocence in particular, as its will be very helpful for that project I'm working. Again sorry for  cutting in here.

I just looked over the Aria script. Indeed I found nothing stating that Chaos itself is a creation of Dracula. But I did found (again) confirmation that the castle was created from Chaos, and that there is an access to Chaos itself inside the castle.

As for where you'll find Lament's script, I have no idea. The site where I got the Aria script from doesn't appear to have the Lament script. Here's the Aria script:

http://www.geocities.jp/clearfeathers/menuett/words/words.html
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 03:24:58 PM by theplottwist »
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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2016, 02:49:57 PM »
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I just looked over the Aria script. Indeed I found nothing stating that Chaos itself is a creation of Dracula.

As for where you'll find Lament's script, I have no idea. The site where I got the Aria script from doesn't appear to have the Lament script. Here's the Aria script:

http://www.geocities.jp/clearfeathers/menuett/words/words.html

Ahh thank you anyway.
And thank you for the site as well.
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2016, 08:07:39 AM »
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I'm aware of this, but this:

Doesn't appear to be correct. Mostly because the opposite is precisely what the Ricordanza novel says: Chaos is the embodiment of humans' collective evil AND the source of Dracula's power/regenerative cycle. I'll be pasting a piece of Shiroi's translation:

“As I’ve said, I would equally gain control over the human world and the source of Dracula’s power, chaos. I do not intend to obey someone else’s mind aside from my own. That includes you [Death] who were born out of chaos.

His Castle is the symbol of his power/magic, and was woven out of Chaos, exactly as Alucard says in Symphony both in japanese and english. I don't have access to Aria's japanese script (yet), but I do have access to Dawn's japanese Library, and it also confirms the same: The castle is what is the symbol of his power, not Chaos. Once it was locked within the eclipse, Dracula was torn off from his magic (which again implies that Chaos is Dracula's power source with the castle serving as this power's symbol):

ドラキュラが完全に滅びる事になった戦い。
ノストラダムスの予言、恐怖の大王はドラキュラを意味していた。
しかし、この戦いで日本にある白馬神社の神主の力により、ドラキュラの魔力の象徴であるドラキュラ城が日食に封じられる。
これにより、ドラキュラの魂と魔力が引き剥がされ、復活の運命から解き放たれた。

Furthermore, Chaos can't be a creation of Dracula, because Death existed before Dracula was even a thing. Even if Shiroi has embelished the line above about Chaos being Dracula's power source (which I don't believe to be the case), the novel confirms multiple times that Death was born from Chaos along with all other demons and monsters, which also have existed before Dracula did, as we know from Lament of Innocence.

I'll be checking the japanese script of Aria to learn more about this.

Let me rephrase what I said earlier. Chaos is indeed not Dracula's creation. What Aria's script says on the matter is this:

ドラキュラの邪悪な意思は、破壊と混沌を求める人間達によって作られたものだ。
ならば、その意思に影響を与えている混沌を切り離せば良い。

Dracula's evil will/intention (i.e Dracula's "evil side") is a thing that was created by humans seeking chaos and destruction. If possible you should seperate the chaos that is influencing that intention.

As we know, Chaos is created from humanity's collective evil. What Alucard/Arikado is saying here is that Chaos is what's causing Dracula to be evil. If you remember, this ties into something IGA said before:

開発者がひもとく「ドラキュラ」の秘密3 改心後も復活してしまう訳:
PS「月下の夜想曲」で、ドラキュラは改心して滅びていくんですが、そのあとの時代でもなぜか復活しています。
これは魔界に封印された者は、その邪悪な部分だけが増幅されるため、
邪教の信者などが時期を見て復活の儀式を行えば、ドラキュラ本人の意思を伴わずに、邪悪な意思だけが復活するためと思われます。
ただ、いつかはドラキュラにも完全な安息を与えたいと思っています

IGA uses the same phrasing used in Aria: "邪悪な意思" (evil will/evil side). I believe we all this interpreted this to mean that whenever Dracula was sealed in the Makai, the Makai itself was what caused Dracula's evil to be amplified. However, based on what is said in Aria, I think the correct interpretation is that it's Chaos that's causing Dracula to become more evil whenever he is sealed. And Chaos in turn, is a result of the evil in the hearts of humans.

I think this also explains what happend at the end of Aria. After Soma defeated Graham and absorbed his powers, he for all intents and purposes became Dracula because the two neccessary ingredients became mixed: Dracula's soul which contains "the power to rule" and Dracula's powers which Graham somehow managed to obtain. Afterwards, as pointed out by Arikado, an "evil intention" starts flowing into Soma, which is Chaos.  In order not to succumb to his evil side, Soma had to destroy Chaos in order to stop this flow of evil intention.

I trust that Shiroi translation is mostly correct but I have a hunch the original Japanese text most likely links Chaos to Dracula's evil intention rather than his power (though I could be wrong).   
   

Offline theplottwist

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2016, 11:01:44 AM »
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Let me rephrase what I said earlier. Chaos is indeed not Dracula's creation. What Aria's script says on the matter is this:

ドラキュラの邪悪な意思は、破壊と混沌を求める人間達によって作られたものだ。
ならば、その意思に影響を与えている混沌を切り離せば良い。

Dracula's evil will/intention (i.e Dracula's "evil side") is a thing that was created by humans seeking chaos and destruction. If possible you should seperate the chaos that is influencing that intention.

As we know, Chaos is created from humanity's collective evil. What Alucard/Arikado is saying here is that Chaos is what's causing Dracula to be evil. If you remember, this ties into something IGA said before:

開発者がひもとく「ドラキュラ」の秘密3 改心後も復活してしまう訳:
PS「月下の夜想曲」で、ドラキュラは改心して滅びていくんですが、そのあとの時代でもなぜか復活しています。
これは魔界に封印された者は、その邪悪な部分だけが増幅されるため、
邪教の信者などが時期を見て復活の儀式を行えば、ドラキュラ本人の意思を伴わずに、邪悪な意思だけが復活するためと思われます。
ただ、いつかはドラキュラにも完全な安息を与えたいと思っています

IGA uses the same phrasing used in Aria: "邪悪な意思" (evil will/evil side). I believe we all this interpreted this to mean that whenever Dracula was sealed in the Makai, the Makai itself was what caused Dracula's evil to be amplified. However, based on what is said in Aria, I think the correct interpretation is that it's Chaos that's causing Dracula to become more evil whenever he is sealed. And Chaos in turn, is a result of the evil in the hearts of humans.

I think this also explains what happend at the end of Aria. After Soma defeated Graham and absorbed his powers, he for all intents and purposes became Dracula because the two neccessary ingredients became mixed: Dracula's soul which contains "the power to rule" and Dracula's powers which Graham somehow managed to obtain. Afterwards, as pointed out by Arikado, an "evil intention" starts flowing into Soma, which is Chaos.  In order not to succumb to his evil side, Soma had to destroy Chaos in order to stop this flow of evil intention.

I trust that Shiroi translation is mostly correct but I have a hunch the original Japanese text most likely links Chaos to Dracula's evil intention rather than his power (though I could be wrong).   
   

Ah OK, that's what I agree with. What I understood by your "Chaos is the personification of Dracula's will/intention (and all the negative emotions of humans)" is that Dracula had, intentionally or not, amassed his evil intention and all of the mankind's into a single entity, therefore creating it.

Aria's english script isn't too far off from what you said, even:

Arikado: The evil in this spirit comes from those who seek chaos and destruction. So we need to cut off the source of the chaos influencing the spirit.

Though I do believe that both the Makai concept and the Chaos concept are working together. I believe this because the Makai's concept was not dropped -- it returned in Dawn of Sorrow, as something that directly influences the demons, being their power source and making them invincible (again, the same concept used for Dracula -- he can't be killed by anything else but the Vampire Killer).

If the Makai is a world of demons, and the demons are a creation of Chaos, then it's possible that the chaos within humans affects the Makai in general (thus affecting the evil intention present there when Dracula is dead). IGA mentioned that this evil intention is amplified in the Makai, but not created by it -- that would be the chaotic nature of humans.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 12:34:38 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2016, 07:01:05 PM »
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Agreed. I never once thought otherwise. Barlow simply sacrificed his life in order to resurrect Dracula Since Shanoa was  unwilling to be the sacrifice herself.

This, exactly what I believed. Although I had my own ideas on Barlowe's intentions, I never thought he was the "vessel" for Dracula's resurrection. He chose to "self-destruct" because Shanoa wouldn't use Dominus.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2017, 05:50:07 PM »
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Hey guys uh... this was the most recent OoE thread I could find and I need your expertise.

Now I know this is going to sound really random and sketchy, but I swear I need to know this for plot reasons and it's totally relevant.

But uh

Does Shanoa wear anything under her backless dress?

Offline SecretWeapon

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2017, 09:33:56 PM »
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Panties are likely. Bra-less probably but it's kinda redundant when you are wearing a cuirass and a tight dress.

Make the Carmilla/Annette fanfic i mentioned slave xoxo

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: No, Barlowe isn't "Dracula's vessel."
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2017, 09:50:49 PM »
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Panties are likely. Bra-less probably but it's kinda redundant when you are wearing a cuirass and a tight dress.

Make the Carmilla/Annette fanfic i mentioned slave xoxo

Might as well jump on this crazy train. I'm calling thong, and damn anachronisms to hell, half the foods in the series are anachronistic. Totally thong. Though I also venture that Shanoa probably looks a hell of a lot better in her dress than out of it.
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

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