Topic: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia *** NO SPOILERS

[Dark Nemesis]

Those guys are suckers!! I think that i will explode after what i read!! Game informer and game pro are complaining for the same think. The difficulty of the game. Also, i can't underestand why the guy from game pro is calling difficulty poorly design? Difficulty isn't design, it's an option, parameter of the game. He also complains about the glyph system? What a looser he is!! The game didn't get Editor's Choice, because it is difficult? So the level , enemies design, game play and sound of the game are no more factors for how much good is a game, but it's difficulty?

Then why Famitsu and the rest of the world, they didn't say and do the same think when Vagrant Story came out? That game is 100 times harder than this one, but still Famitsu gave it 40/40. Every game magazine, i remember saying that the game was having inhuman difficulty, but this didn't stopped them from giving it 9/10 or 10/10. What i have heard and read from the reviewers is ridiculous.

[king metroid]

Gamepro review scanned:


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/CamronGod/OoE_Review_GamePro.png

RAGE. that faggot shouldn't give games lower scores just because he dosen't know how to play properly.

[azielsatori]

What I see here is a failure to recognize that there is such a thing as "artificial difficulty".

It's apparent that some here don't realize that bad design can make something frustrating.

What I see them saying in these reviews is not that it is a difficult game, but that because of design flaws there is a large amount of "false difficulty".

They don't go into detail but it most likely revolves around trial and error. It is easy to see how something can seem insurmountable because you are given no idea on how to counter certain situations.

A player should never go into a fight feeling that it's impossible and that only by luck will they be able to defeat an opponent, that is definitive bad design.
Completely unrewarding for the player, because the player didn't really beat anything, they just got lucky.

I really hope that isn't the case, but that sentiment is looking to be wishful thinking.

[Rugal]

The second to last parapgraph in that Gamepro review makes me want to puke.

Really? His he really serious about that? I'm not going to curse, or swear this time. I'm just at a loss for words really.

[Dark Nemesis]

In Reply To #2163

If you were able to counter every single attack of enemies or bosses, then the battles wouldn't have any challenge or interest!!

[erimocard]

In Reply To #2163

Especially the fact that you have to learn attack patterns and develop defense strategies leaves you ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE to win by luck. So, no, I didn't really get you here.

[azielsatori]

Because you haven't humored the possibility that the two are not the same.

That there are bosses that we are already familiar with "the patterned bosses" and then there are bosses that are "badly designed".

Nemesis: You should not be forced to take hits in a boss battle.

I can understand where this reviewer is coming from, they have no support net. Being given absolutely no idea as to what to do next is frustrating.
Obviously we won't have that problem, if one of you get stuck you will inevitably search for help on the internet.

This reviewer cannot do that. They can't buy a guide that isn't on the racks yet, they can't lurk on some forum for hints.

Not much to go on though, so far we have only witnessed one full boss battle, and segments of three confirmed others. One of which ends with Shanoa dying to a screen wide boss attack.

We have only seen the first boss really. These reviewers have seen much more, there may very well be bosses that are truly badly designed and the faults have nothing to do with their patterns.
Who knows? But I would not dismiss their remarks out of hand. That simply sets you up for some serious regrets.

[Dark Nemesis]

In Reply To #2167

I'll tell you what. I was playing Dragon Quest 4 for DS and i've stuck many times, without knowing what to do next and just making battles for level up and money, but i never went on line to search for help on how to progress the game and even if it took me three days to find my way and what to do next, i really enjoyed the game. Also the final boss was having seven different forms to fight, something that was frustrating, but i didn't complain. Instead i've enjoyed the battle. A game that you can kill each boss in three or four tryies, isn't for me and doesn't have any fun.

[Kamirine]

Game Informer's remarks on the bosses actually sound more like Megaman (the old school) bosses to me. Someone at GameFaqs brought this up and I agree.  You can't just go in blasting the crap out of the boss and expect to win: you actually have to figure out it's pattern and choose the proper weapon to deal with it.

As for Gamepro, please.  The guy got stuck on a part and wanted to email Konami.  That isn't a bad 'design choice'.  That's "I have no clue where I'm going but I'll blame it on the game".  If that were the case, then some people should have REALLY hated Phantom Hourglass, with all it's puzzles.

[Dark Nemesis]

Game Informer's remarks on the bosses actually sound more like Megaman (the old school) bosses to me. Someone at GameFaqs brought this up and I agree.

[Aridale]

Its impossible to completely agree on somethin like this as everyones definition of "Rewardingly hard" "frustratingly hard" and "fuck this game" are completely different.

That still doesnt rule out that some of the bosses could be poorly designed. Theres a difference between "luck is the only way to beat it" and "you have to know it by heart"

A perfect example is the game "Champions of Norrath: Return to Arms" fantastic game and one of my fav games of the probably the past 10 years or so but theres ONE special board that you HAVE to beat to get to the big area with all the good stuff and the ONLY way its possible to beat it is pure luck. Theres no skill involved as its all mostly completely random. After literally hours of gettin within seconds of winning and then failing it ruined the game for me and my friend both. Neither of us ever got lucky enough to beat it and it killed the game for us. And believe me we tried and we love the game we played for WEEKS every night for 10-12 hours straight without even realizing it we loved it so much.

But that one board completely ruined it for us cause of poor design as oppose to just bein difficult.

[erimocard]

In Reply To #2171

Ever since we saw that water level boss attacking with a tsunami with absolutely no place to dodge, I know you absolutely CANT beat the game without levelling up since attacks like that would be one hit kills. I know, that on level 1 it would be nearly impossible anyway, but I'm talking about theoretics. Normally you can evade any attack, but there's simply no way here.
But then again maybe there's a glyph to even avoid attacks that simply hit you everywhere on the screen. Maybe some shield aura or something. Who knows.

But yeah, when there are attacks that can hit you anywhere on the screen and that do large amounts of damage, I would agree, that it's poorly designed and that you can only win by luck, that is, if you are lucky and the enemy chooses other attacks randomly.

[semianonymous]

In Reply To #2172

If you notice, the first part of that battle shows her destroying some sort of rock outcropping. I'll bet that if you don't destroy those, you can hide under them when the tsunami attack hits.
Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is clever, if I'm right.

[Reinhart77]

heh, they should have a boss who constantly sucks away your life and you just have to demolish them before you run out. 

[Kamirine]

In Reply To #2172

I figured there is either something in the enviroment (like someone mentioned) or there is a Glyph (or combination of them) that can be used to deal with that move.  Of course I can't say for sure until I play but I assume there's SOMETHING to deal with said move. 

Information on the game and it's difficulty:

The "grind" mentality works a bit, but with so much of the game being about instantly available levels one after another (finish one, there's no backtrack to the next), you won't naturally gain levels from just running around from point to point. If you do want to grind - I've done it a few times, for a couple minutes each - you need to make a serious effort to do it, as the game will flow from one level to the next right away.

It's a plus and a minus, in a way. Level to level means you won't spend as much time just exploring, while at the same time the game is huge, and you're always going to new areas. Also, I'm suprised to see that most areas in the game are only 20 - 30 or so rooms thus far (33% in). They are about 1/3 to 1/4 the size of a PoR painting, if I remember right, but there are lots of them. Less backtracking though too; interesting game thus far, but I'm not sure if I'd put it even close to Dawn of Sorrow juuuuust yet. We'll see.

EDIT: Oh and yeah. The bosses are way harder. I'm a gigantic Castlevania fan (like to a sick extent... kind of obsessed) and I've died upwards of 15 times on a single boss. Normally a few runs is fine, but every once in a while one really gets ya with patterns. Not QUITE as hard as something like Contra 4 (or Hard Mode LV1, obviously, which is a blast in previous games), but for a SOTN-design Castlevania game, it's the hardest by far in my opnion. Kinda awesome in that sense. Finally, a game that makes you sweat a little.

When asked "What about the glyph system? Is it an expanded DoS soul system?" & "How does it compare to say CotM?"

From what I can tell it's actually a bit smaller in number, but the same concept, yeah.

Enemies have a certain drop difficulty for them, and once you get it, you can use the attack. Doesn't seem to have the same "build" mechanic though, where you'd get up to nine of the same to expand the power of it (or in PoR, get kills to "master" them). It's more traditional in that sense. Also, as I'm sure other reviews have mentioend, there's the "glyph fusion" which is the new item crush. Differnt combinations of glyphs means different fusin (item crush) attacks, which use the hearts. It's kind of like the original Circle of the Moon DSS card system in that sense, but again, a little simpler, since not every combo makes a new fusion.

I'm catching some Z's, but yeah. Hope that at least cleared a few things up.

EDIT: Comared to CotM, I'd say this is still harder. I hardly ever die in the SOTN-inspired Castlevania games (not bragging; just to lay the facts out) and I've died a lot in this game. It hurts pretty good. I might try more grind tomorrow as I play and see just how much that matters. LV20 at 33% though, and I'm getting rocked pretty good. Hell, I rememeber beating some of the holder GBA games around level 30 or so, if I'm not mistaken...

Ok. Z's for real now.