Topic: So what exactly is the in-game logic behind unlocking Aria's true ending?

[theplottwist]

I might have thought of an alternate interpretation that doesn't require the endings to be swapped. What if, in the ending of castle A, Maxim is at no point possessed by the evil spirit and decides to fight Juste on his own accord? He does beg Juste to kill him, and after he refuses, Maxim says something like: "then if will make you change your mind!" and then proceeds to attack him. I always thought that last bit was the evil spirit talking (the fact that they used the portrait of evil Maxim could be seen as an indication of that), but now that I think about, it wouldn't really make sense  for the evil spirit to say that. He has absolutely no intention of losing to Juste. If that's the case, that would also explain why Juste wearing both bracelets has no effect on the ending: despite the fact that Maxim is still resisting the evil spirit, he sees no other option than to get himself killed in other to save Juste and Lydie from the evil spirit. Of course, that does raise the question: "Why doesn't Maxim just kill himself then?" but I think the whole "If you won't kill me, I'll make you kill me" thing is a trope that is used in other stories as well. So it's probably possible to justify it.             

edit: Zangetsu already came up with something similar, right?

Yeah like, at no point I thought that was the evil spirit talking. It's just Maxim being feisty, challenging Juste so he can be felled by Juste's hand.

Also, as you pointed out, it's a cliche. And, if we REALLY NEED an explanation, X and Blood Time Lord already provided it -- suicide is a no-no for ultra-religious nuts like Juste and Maxim.

[Nagumo]

Because suicide is forbidden by God. Reinhardt makes this mention in CV64/LoD. Everyone under the church's influence or teachings would be taught this lesson. Besides which Maxim doesn't harbour feelings of depression which is one the major triggers for suicide. Maxim couldn't kill himself due to his evil counterpart's influence to want to survive at any cost. In order for Maxim to die and save his friends he took the path of least resistance because he knew that the evil entity would also want that as well; to fight Juste. And Maxim  knew that Juste would win against him. He counted on it.

That seems like a satisfying enough explanation. I didn't think of the "suicide is forbidden by God" thing. That's a nice little touch.

Also, I might have thought of a solution for why Lydie doesn't die in the best ending even though she does in the worst ending. The evil spirit is essentially Dracula's spawn, isn't he? So you could argue Lydie's sire is Dracula. In other words, just killing the evil spirit wouldn't cure Lydie of her vampire bite. It's also neccessary to destroy Dracula's remains, which only happens in the best ending. 

[theplottwist]

Reviving this thread for a bit to call Nagumo's attention:



This is about Harmony of Dissonance. I could just barely translate what it's saying, but I believe this is IGA talking about the logic behind the true ending.

If I understood correctly, IGA said that you fight the Wraith and get the true ending only on Castle B because only Maxim's memories remain, the logic being that Castle B is the closest to his memories for you to awaken with the bracelets.

But, as I said, this is just the general gist of what I could understand. Since you're the actual Japanese speaker, I would ask you to please take a read (and, if possible, provide a better explanation).

[zangetsu468]

Could it be then Castle A is more like the physical castle whereas Castle B is more like the metaphysical? (The Plato's concept of the idea?/ the "consciousness")

[Nagumo]

I took at a look at that interview a while back with the hopes of finding an explanation but unfortunately it doesn't get us much further. They do indeed spend much time talking about the endings but it's more in terms of development rather than story. Earlier in the interview IGA explain he wanted multiple endings in the game. He mostly just describes how the endings work: there are 2 endings that correspond to each castle + one ending that is related to Juste and Maxim's rings (Lydie gave them the rings apperently). He then says the ending which is the most easy to get is the one where Maxim dies and Juste only manages to rescue Lydie. If the player then goes to the other castle, and doesn't equip the two rings, only Juste survives. He then adds: "That's strange, isn't it?". Later he says he did this deliberately so the player would wonder: "How can I save Maxim even though I've been told he's dead?". He mentions that Juste's line: "All that remains to remember them by is this bracelet..." is a clue for getting the true ending. Takeda also mentions the game over screen is also meant as a hint. That's just a rough summary but I'm certain no story explanations are given.               

[thernz]

castlevania story decisions half-feel like iga spontaneously thinking about things in terms of gameplay and jotting them down on notepad, without thinking about narrative relevance

it's good though, sotn is good bc the entire philosophy of the game was them just cramming every idea they wrote down on a notepad


that's like not to undermine textual analysis of the stories though, bc stories are always about things even as author tries their hardest to make it pure fluff

[theplottwist]

I took at a look at that interview a while back with the hopes of finding an explanation but unfortunately it doesn't get us much further. They do indeed spend much time talking about the endings but it's more in terms of development rather than story. Earlier in the interview IGA explain he wanted multiple endings in the game. He mostly just describes how the endings work: there are 2 endings that correspond to each castle + one ending that is related to Juste and Maxim's rings (Lydie gave them the rings apperently). He then says the ending which is the most easy to get is the one where Maxim dies and Juste only manages to rescue Lydie. If the player then goes to the other castle, and doesn't equip the two rings, only Juste survives. He then adds: "That's strange, isn't it?". Later he says he did this deliberately so the player would wonder: "How can I save Maxim even though I've been told he's dead?". He mentions that Juste's line: "All that remains to remember them by is this bracelet..." is a clue for getting the true ending. Takeda also mentions the game over screen is also meant as a hint. That's just a rough summary but I'm certain no story explanations are given.             

Ahhh ok ok that makes sense. Thank you!

[Nagumo]

I think I finally figured out why Maxim and Lydie can "exist in two castles at the same time". The reason is surprisingly simple: we all wrongly assumed that castle A and B exist at the same time, but on seperate planes. However, another possibility is that whenever Juste enters one of those portals, which castle he was in ceases to exist and is replaced by the other castle. This means that whenever Juste enters a portal, Maxim's personality changes as well. This is supported by the game because you only ever encounter normal Maxim in castle A and evil Maxim in castle B.     

[zangetsu468]

I think I finally figured out why Maxim and Lydie can "exist in two castles at the same time". The reason is surprisingly simple: we all wrongly assumed that castle A and B exist at the same time, but on seperate planes. However, another possibility is that whenever Juste enters one of those portals, which castle he was in ceases to exist and is replaced by the other castle. This means that whenever Juste enters a portal, Maxim's personality changes as well. This is supported by the game because you only ever encounter normal Maxim in castle A and evil Maxim in castle B.   

I've been saying something 99% similar to this, except I don't believe one castle ceases to exist. I see it more at two planes merging over one another like an eclipse. The only caveat to this being Maxim A (normal) and Maxim B (evil/ chaos driven) who behave in tandem with one another but who are not exclusively exactly the same being (unlike Juste and Lydie).

[Nagumo]

Actually, never mind because there's something that pokes a pretty big hole in my theory. You're supposed to find Lydie in a room in castle A. However, you can actually visit the castle B version of this room before triggering the event in castle A, but it turns out she isn't there. I was hoping that room was blocked off until you rescued her in castle A but that turns out not to be the case.

...damnit, I thought I finally had something. 

[X]

Well even Death said that the castle has 'two layers'. That line alone automatically told me that both are existing at the exact same time in the same place, except on two separate plains as they have yet to merge.

[Nagumo]

That's true. Yet, there are still odd situations in the game. For example, when you encounter evil Maxim and he transforms into that shadow monster. Afterwards, the only way to progress the game is to go back to the same exact room where you fought Shadow, except in castle A. Then you'll find Maxim there, crouching like he's wounded. But there's no reason why Maxim would show up in that room if you go with the "two castle existing simultaneously" interpretation. However, the developers seemed to think this was logical somehow because absolutely no clue is provided that the player should go back there. Whichever interpretation you go with, things don't add up. It's really bizarre.

[X]

For example, when you encounter evil Maxim and he transforms into that shadow monster. Afterwards, the only way to progress the game is to go back to the same exact room where you fought Shadow, except in castle A. Then you'll find Maxim there, crouching like he's wounded.

I feel that despite there being two separate Maxims, both are connected on some level which would explain the above to some degree. And by this point in the game Maxim is already aware of his 'other self' which is why he mentions this to Juste when you meet up with him again.

[Zuljaras]

It is not so weird for me the HoD 2 castle thing. When I first played the game I thought that the 2 castles are separate but certain things are connected between them. Like Maxim and the evil spirit. You change a vertain thing in one castle and the connected thing changes in the other castle.

[zangetsu468]

That's true. Yet, there are still odd situations in the game. For example, when you encounter evil Maxim and he transforms into that shadow monster. Afterwards, the only way to progress the game is to go back to the same exact room where you fought Shadow, except in castle A. Then you'll find Maxim there, crouching like he's wounded. But there's no reason why Maxim would show up in that room if you go with the "two castle existing simultaneously" interpretation. However, the developers seemed to think this was logical somehow because absolutely no clue is provided that the player should go back there. Whichever interpretation you go with, things don't add up. It's really bizarre.

Actually I don't think it's that difficult to understand, I think the technicalities are being overly thought out. Characters move in between the 2 castles, they can't be in two places at once, but Maxim can "jump" between the 2. The way this would work is in the example of the Maxim fight you've referenced; The "evil" side (B) takes over during the fight, when it gets overridden by the "good" side (A), he's back in the first Castle (A). 

However, by the end of the game, the 2 castles (layers A & B) are overlapping, hence Maxim is in both and essentially the same event is happening except that in B, you fight the evil Maxim. Which is why the good ending happens in Castle B.

However, by that token it's a game and certain events will only prompt when you reach a specific screen. This is not so disimilar to SOTN, while playing as Alucard, Maria waits for Alucard in multiple locations at one instant. Classic example being the spike room and ending room, or the Holy Goggles room/ ending room/ spike room. In reality she could only be at one of those locations, but different in game events occur in order to prompt different events to occur.