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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: VeteranVk on November 11, 2010, 07:27:33 PM

Title: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: VeteranVk on November 11, 2010, 07:27:33 PM
              Hello CV Dungeon, I haven't posted here since CoD was all the rage (or lack there of for some) and I was formerly known and maybe remembered by some as CVeteran. I mainly stopped posting due to lack of time between a gf, schooling, working, etc; but I am looking forward to speaking with all of you again about one of our most beloved game series again rather than "lurking in the shadows" and skimming over topics once a or twice a week.  :)

Now, with my re-introduction out of the way... Let me put an end to any ensuing flaming about my topic by stating that I DON'T have a problem with IGA and I give heavy kudos to a man who tried to make sense of a series that was becoming a tangled mess to begin with. Did he always go about it the right way? No, maybe not but then again, if one of us handled the franchise Im sure we all wouldn't agree on the end result either. Such appears to be the case with David Cox and Lords of Shadow which IMO was a large step in the right direction (except the music) and I am most curios to see what direction that is exactly once the wrinkles have been well ironed out. To some, the biggest wrinkle seems to be the elimination of the current timeline... I'll be the first to tell you, being told to "forget" the past quarter-century of Castlevania was not an easy thing to do, but do I have a problem with Cox for doing so? Absolutely not. Why? Like IGA, he's tried/trying and Im sure he had reason for doing as such. Just like any forum goer Im here to speculate why.

As a Castlevania fan I couldn't wrap my head around being told to forget everything I know about Castlevania by another fan who happened to be a developer. But what if this was never the case...? I had seen in another thread a short while ago somebody trying to find a way to fit LoS into the current CV timeline only to be constantly thwarted by the same response of it simply not being possible...And its true...its not possible to fit LoS into IGA's timeline. This couldn't be made more clear in game by the referencing or redesigning of older characters, places or objects scattered about LoS. To me, this doesn't just strike me as fan service alone so much as Cox making it a point to NOT eliminate all traces of IGA. On the other side of the same coin, why wasn't there any mentioning of non IGA characters with the exception of Cornell? Nevermind other Belmonts. No Graves or Morris' but what about Grant, Sypha, or even Alucard? No sign of them anywhere... I think the answer to this might even be clearer than we thought. Imagine if you will, IGA telling us that CVIII was his favorite game then proceed to retcon it with LoI. Im sure everything wrong with that scenario is just screaming at you. So in my mind, why would Cox Retcon SCVIV if that is his favorite game?

He hasn't...I don't think he's retconned much if he has at all. He's doing what IGA did in the beginning when the franchise landed in his lap but in a more graceful and tactful manner. My guess is this, with the facts we've been given, I'd be hard pressed to say that the old timeline in its entirety has been completely eliminated. I think that MOST pre-IGA games and previous Belmont exploits may still be in place, from Trevor to John Morris sr. and including SotN... while IGA's games are removed from the list of canonical events they will remain in memory in some humble form or another whether it be more mere mentionings in scrolls or by another means instead of being completely wiped clean from the franchise's history. If this is indeed the case, then Cox has left himself plenty of working room to further elaborate his vision of Castlevania or even revisit some of the older titles in the new-gen, lets not forget that Gabe was originally going to be a revamped Simon. Of course none of this was stated by Cox himself but neither has he stated anything contrary to it.

This is all one fan's guess that I am more than likely wrong about, but if this turns out to be true, I have to say I wouldn't mind it in the least. What do you all think? :D
 

Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Thomas Belmont on November 11, 2010, 08:23:29 PM
              Now, with my re-introduction out of the way... Let me put an end to any ensuing flaming about my topic by stating that I DON'T have a problem with IGA and I give heavy kudos to a man who tried to make sense of a series that was becoming a tangled mess to begin with.




What are you talking about? He's the one who fucked it all up .
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: VeteranVk on November 11, 2010, 08:37:15 PM
If you mean by retconning legends and a few other games? No he didn't. But by retconning those games, adding his own games, then adding them again rather than working around them first place? Then yes he did. He needed to make a decision and stick with it. But IMO I think thats about the extent of it. I mean, not all of his stories are outright terrible. I think he would have done better to work with what was there. In example, while I liked OoE, I think he may have faired better if the clock could be turned back about 7 years and we received a prequel to CotM.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: knightmere on November 11, 2010, 09:10:25 PM
IGA fucked the story by sealing dracula's castle in a sky and making him into japanese teenager.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: VeteranVk on November 11, 2010, 09:25:02 PM
IGA fucked the story by sealing dracula's castle in a sky and making him into japanese teenager.


I can't argue with that one.  :-X
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Richter on November 11, 2010, 09:27:04 PM
The LOS plot is removed from the original timeline to sell it to a wider audience. The few scattered references to old names and characters are just small nods to give a bit of fan service. The reason any of these companies, Konami, Capcom, whoever are outsourcing their big names is because of this stupid idea that Japanese games need to be "Westernised" even though their former popularity didn't need anything of the sort. My biggest grip with LOS is the plot writing and the character development itself, not that it doesnt fit the continuity.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 11, 2010, 09:33:11 PM
Last time I checked, the surname "Cruz" is of Spanish origin. And I don't see anything wrong with Castlevania being sealed in the year 1999..


I suppose Cox making a Belmont Dracula is better lol
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: e105beta on November 11, 2010, 09:36:16 PM
The LOS plot is removed from the original timeline to sell it to a wider audience. The few scattered references to old names and characters are just small nods to give a bit of fan service. The reason any of these companies, Konami, Capcom, whoever are outsourcing their big names is because of this stupid idea that Japanese games need to be "Westernised" even though their former popularity didn't need anything of the sort. My biggest grip with LOS is the plot writing and the character development itself, not that it doesnt fit the continuity.

I agree that "Westernizing" a game doesn't necessarily make it better, but to be frank, though, Castlevania hasn't been popular for awhile so I can understand the concept of redoing the series with a new feel.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 12, 2010, 12:00:12 AM
Last time I checked, the surname "Cruz" is of Spanish origin. And I don't see anything wrong with Castlevania being sealed in the year 1999..


I suppose Cox making a Belmont Dracula is better lol
A lot, and made a lot of more sense.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crystos on November 12, 2010, 12:26:08 AM
Last time I checked, the surname "Cruz" is of Spanish origin. And I don't see anything wrong with Castlevania being sealed in the year 1999..


I suppose Cox making a Belmont Dracula is better lol

well it's hinted that he isn't really a "BELMONT" either.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 12:34:57 AM
It's still a lame twist. Ever see "Dracula 2000?"

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv119%2Fc0mbat%2FDracula2002.jpg&hash=f0160a8ef7e628349b5189f90db054d780f23605)

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.castlevaniacrypt.com%2Fgames%2Flos%2Fimages%2Fart%2Fdracula-01.png&hash=f445a8bf4048d4db20c705648a9e7f5b127ffe1f)
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 12, 2010, 12:56:23 AM
Yeah sure it's the same! :rollseyes:
It's not at least as lame as your efforts to bash it though
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 01:01:07 AM
uh oh did i offend the ahasverus??


I retract my previous statement; LoS ending is awesome!!!!!!!
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 12, 2010, 01:01:31 AM
Last time I checked, the surname "Cruz" is of Spanish origin. And I don't see anything wrong with Castlevania being sealed in the year 1999..
Actually, Soma is probably Japanese, or at least someone born in Japan because he wasn't an exchange student in the original version, and he had a childhood friendship with Mina!
But you know, both plot twists were lame and predictable! Not sure how making a "Belmont" become Dracula is anymore sensible than Dracula being reincarnated and having a chance to become Dracula again!

i personally think the whole reincarnation thing just melds much more with his kinky habit of resurrection and the whole theme of FATE the series had. it's a bit neat in that concept then just having the twist that the heroes may be the progeny of the GREATEST EVIL! of course, los has just been one entry in its story! might do something else since dracula and zobek seem to TAG TEAM to take down the greatest evil here.

well, excuse me, thernz! but los had a lot of foreshadowing with the heavy cloud of FATE over gabriel. and it might be interesting to see such a well-intended (kinda) holy warrior descend to the rank of demon-honcho! plus there is a lot of mythology to be explored! a lot more figures can be prominent in this than just DRACULA in the old cvs. there's an interesting dynamic with how pan is a pagan god who was killed with how gabriel is all about being Christian God's Man!
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 01:46:34 AM
Quote
well, excuse me, thernz! but los had a lot of foreshadowing with the heavy cloud of FATE over gabriel. and it might be interesting to see such a well-intended (kinda) holy warrior descend to the rank of demon-honcho! plus there is a lot of mythology to be explored! a lot more figures can be prominent in this than just DRACULA in the old cvs. there's an interesting dynamic with how pan is a pagan god who was killed with how gabriel is all about being Christian God's Man!

That's more like it!
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 12, 2010, 06:15:40 AM
I suppose Cox making a Belmont Dracula is better lol

Oh god yes, so much.

I'm not sure yet the LoS' plotline will turn out great, but the potential is definitely there. There HAS to be a tie between Belmonts and Dracula. This is an excellent way to create it.

Gabriel isn't really a Belmont.

Maybe the Belmonts get persecuted because some dude with their name is the devil on Earth, and they take on the task to fight him to clear their name.
Maybe the Belmonts are descendants of a dude whose family got screwed by Drac and the orphan dude pics the Belmont name to mock up the monster he's hunting.
Maybe the Belmonts start fighting Dracula because Grandma Belmont went to Drac's castle thinking he was some twice removed cousin she didn't see for years and got suckered, and now Simon wants revenge because Grandma's cookies were the shit.

Jokes aside, the potential is there. A tie between Dracula and the Belmonts has been estabilished, and that's integral to the series.

Now, what Thernz said is also very relevant to me. CV never was a very "deep" saga in terms of storyline. And the games that tried to up the ante (fundamentally just the Soma games) did so by building a shonen anime story "over" the mythos. LoS does a lot of butchery while exploring the mythos, but it does so because it builds inside the mythos, and from a new angle. The story is underdeveloped (I've said it everywhere, it's the biggest flaw of the game, and the first think Cox should look to improve - as in, tapping the potential) but the approach is absolutely fantastic. It doesn't shy away from taking CV seriously and have it enter the context of the years it takes place into, the Christian aspects that are so fundamental to vampire myth and so on. If we start getting CV games with references to the crusades or with a stage set in Notre Dame or references to historical characters and the like instead of generic anime teenagers, I'll rejoyce.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 12, 2010, 06:21:18 AM
But you know, both plot twists were lame and predictable! Not sure how making a "Belmont" become Dracula is anymore sensible than Dracula being reincarnated and having a chance to become Dracula again!


I don't think the reincarnation aspect is the problem. I find the idea of playing the original Dracula more appealing than playing reincarnated Dracula for sure, but I don't see the "plot twist" as a problem. I was totally fine with it.

It's the way it's pulled off that is downright terrible. From the whole teenager factor, to the shonen story design, to the character looks... it's like you're suddenly dropped in the middle of Naruto without knowing it.

IGA's biggest problem isn't the ideas, it's the execution. I honestly don't think he really understands gothic-ness at all.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: corneliab on November 12, 2010, 08:47:35 AM
Maybe the Belmonts get persecuted because some dude with their name is the devil on Earth, and they take on the task to fight him to clear their name.
Maybe the Belmonts are descendants of a dude whose family got screwed by Drac and the orphan dude pics the Belmont name to mock up the monster he's hunting.
Maybe the Belmonts start fighting Dracula because Grandma Belmont went to Drac's castle thinking he was some twice removed cousin she didn't see for years and got suckered, and now Simon wants revenge because Grandma's cookies were the shit.

I would love it if the family (or the dude that starts it anyways) that ends up going against Drac adopts the Belmont name after the supposed hero who freed the land from the forces of darkness/the Lords. That would be both awesome and epicly appropriate.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 11:52:00 AM
so why even call Gabriel a Belmont if he was never intended to be a Belmont in the first place.


People are so quick to defend the LoS twist like it's the greatest thing to happen to CV in decades. Sure we can say the story has potential all day long, it does, but the likelyhood that it'll turn out just as convoluted if not more than an IGA scenario is extremely high. So the idea of "this is sooo better than IGA story" is bullshit, it's just as lame. in my opinion of course.


Hey maybe they should introduce a "Belmont Mask," so the next hero can truly inherit the skills it takes to fight Devil Mask Gabriel?
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 12, 2010, 12:46:03 PM
so why even call Gabriel a Belmont if he was never intended to be a Belmont in the first place.

I would guess that's the entire point.

My personal theory is that Cox wanted to tell a "Dracula origins" story; on the other hand he really sounds like a "Belmont or bust" type of CV fan. It was sort of a catch 22, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the entire affair was started as a cop out of sorts.
However, once you look at the result, the potential is undeniable: exploring the ties between Belmonts and Dracula (and making it a little more personal than "Dracula wronged my grand grand grandad") is INFINITELY better for me than going on the umpteen tangent and introducing yet another Dracula worshiping cult and yet another resurrection story.
I think what people appreciates is that after years of frustration from seeing IGA explore 20.050.405 different side stories and then pushing the game towards a shonen anime sci-fi rendition while we were still waiting for a proper origins story or THAT DAMN DEMON CASTLE WARS GAME (ffs), LoS sort of returns to the roots of the story. It's all about Dracula, even if not in the perspective we expected.


Quote
People are so quick to defend the LoS twist like it's the greatest thing to happen to CV in decades.

But does it surprise you? We're in the realm of opinions but... it is. We got a fleshed out (for CV standards) Dracula that has an agenda and even a set of personal enemies. We got an expanded mythos that tries to give some momentum to Drac's character by explaining (or at least introducing) his relationship with the other forces of evil. I understand that the staple of the "lovable villain" is probably overused, but Dracula is traditionally the paradigm of the clichè.
There's a lot of smoke and mirrors involved (once again, Cox and Co. need to up the ante tenfold with the plot because so far so good, but if they don't work out that potential then all the "maturity" of this storyline will stay in the realm of simply having a more serious presentation and little else) but after decades of same-ish titles with plots often better ignored, we got something exciting to look up to even in the storyline department.


Quote
Sure we can say the story has potential all day long, it does, but the likelyhood that it'll turn out just as convoluted if not more than an IGA scenario is extremely high. So the idea of "this is sooo better than IGA story" is bullshit, it's just as lame. in my opinion of course.

I think in terms of how the actual events pan out it would require a major screwup to get there, but yes, the LoS storyline CAN fall flat on its face. It certainly needs more exposition; it needs new kind of narrative. We need more characters, more dialogues, more events. Recurring characters (if the next LoS doesn't have more Laura, or if Zobek is gone, it will be a major failure) and all that. The potential is there, but it's mostly untapped.

However, I think the Belmont thing is one of the most exciting aspects. What if Belmonts DO originate from Gabriel? What if he has a son between LoS' ending and becoming a vampire? You'd have Alucard and the Belmonts being stepbrothers. You could have the Belmonts being destined to fight Drac because they descend from him in his semi-angelic status (thus having some of those qualities themselves). They could even definitely sidestep from the core lore and make the Belmonts dhampyrs, in case they don't want to use Alucard.


Quote
Hey maybe they should introduce a "Belmont Mask," so the next hero can truly inherit the skills it takes to fight Devil Mask Gabriel?

I think the safest bet is exploring the path of having Gabriel have a son before becoming Drac, and making the Belmont bloodline have the powers and skills to face evil due to being born from a dude who was resurrected to fight the devil. In the end, having to fight Drac is a curse more than anything else - I would really, really want the next LoS (if it stars a Belmont) to have a more energetic, heroic approach, but obviously it will still have a dark touch.

However, if we get a "Simon" in the next LoS, I want to see him introduced as a young, cocky and somewhat fun guy. Have the drama kick in when it's due, but a part of the Belmont charm is that they seem to have (yuck) some fun doing their job.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 03:12:12 PM
Good thing LoS isn't canon :)
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 12, 2010, 04:11:37 PM
Good thing LoS isn't canon :)

If there ever was a sentence that means absolutely nothing is "XXX isn't canon"  ;D .
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: corneliab on November 12, 2010, 04:29:06 PM
Good thing LoS isn't canon :)

Translation:

LOLOLOL I CANT FUCKING ARGUE ANYMORE
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 05:00:16 PM
Typical corneliab trying to instigate shit yet again. Get lost.


@Valtiel: if you wanna play games that feature silly plots of DHAMPYRE BELMONTS then be my guest. Maybe Legends can fit into the LoS timeline.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 12, 2010, 05:07:32 PM
Are we basically liking LoS because of its potential to add a whole slew of convoluted and unnecessary elements into the story?
That's kinda relying on the fact that LoS's story had a lot of holes. In that way, we can see that it might be seen as a sort of marketing technique to make us buy the sequels. It's really in the same boat as IGA's sidestories you accuse of letting on too few details to add to the overall story.
A story doesn't turn deep when you pile on a bunch of characters and other plot threads. For one, I really don't see the whole need for Dracula to have his own set of personal enemies when the series is about Dracula versus the Belmonts. It's really driving away from the premise of the story. Of course, going by the ending, LoS might set up a storyline whose premise is Dracula's rise to power and decaying social life, rather than any focus on Belmonts. Basically makes the whole Belmont vs Dracula thread a bit useless in the grand scheme of its narrative then.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 12, 2010, 05:29:09 PM

@Valtiel: if you wanna play games that feature silly plots of DHAMPYRE BELMONTS then be my guest. Maybe Legends can fit into the LoS timeline.

I don't know, I played as Soma Cruz, I'm ready for everything. And heck, a few weeks ago I got bombarded by people telling me CV is SUPPOSED to be silly  ;D .


No, I really do NOT want Belmont dhampyrs. Heck, I'm fairly annoyed by Alucard already. I was just pointing out a possibility (not necessarily a welcome one) brought up from the fact that LoS is a game that rises interesting questions instead of giving dumb answers (which is something IGA games too often do).

As for what Thernz said, well, yes, a part of the meaning of a reboot is that of opening up new story possibilites. Will they suck as much as the latest IGA trend? It's absolutely possible, as I said so. I think a lot of people is excited about the possibility that they don't.

We can disagree on the quality of the story, and it's normal. I think however that while this is a small (but very dedicated) community, the storyline poll is hard to argue. The vast majority of the fans appreciated LoS' story well above the series standards, and while LoS' story isn't perfect (and I keep repeating it's the first thing to work on) that does say something. IGA got dozens of shots at delivering a good story and systematically failed. And that storyline is now in a place that is much, much, much more removed from the serie's roots than LoS. We are already playing as "Dracula" in a setting that stopped being gothic and started being Bleach and we're in the future instead of the past and all that. There's no coming back from that. IGA's CV is a shonen anime show now - and I can see people absolutely loving that, and I sincerely hope they keep getting that kind of game, but as a pre-Metroidvania fan I feel a lot more at home with LoS' story than Portrait or the Sorrow games. It's Ecclesia all over a game, it feels removed from the main storyline and just for that a lot more immersive.

We could get down discussing the flaws of LoS' story (risking to waste the Belmont thread completely while focusing on Dracula is definitely one) but that doesn't change the fact that it's leaps and bounds above what we got for the past 15 years.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: corneliab on November 12, 2010, 05:29:45 PM
Typical corneliab trying to instigate shit yet again.


@Valtiel: if you wanna play games that feature silly plots of DHAMPYRE BELMONTS then be my guest. Maybe Legends can fit into the LoS timeline.

If you're going to slam me for "insigating" it'd probably be more effective if you didn't do the same thing a second later.

Get lost.

Eat shit and die.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 05:37:42 PM
Well a lot of your posts here have been nothing but instigating other members & throwing fuel into the fire. Then again, you do post at gamefaqs, so you should be grouped with all those other fucktards that have "opinions" that literally mean shit.


DERP
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: X on November 12, 2010, 06:08:19 PM
IGA F**ked up the story when he created his monster 'LoI'. And this: IGA fucked the story by sealing dracula's castle in a sky and making him into japanese teenager.  is more icing on his damned cake.

-X
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: SIRHardle on November 12, 2010, 06:10:17 PM
Hm... I may seem to be entering dangerous and unfriendly grounds here. Dunno if it's even worthy... oh well...

LOS' storytelling is faulty and poorly constructed. In the end we are left with tons of weird question and whole lot of lack of exposition for the story elements and characters, that fails to give the player any sense of what this new universe of CV might be about. With a twist in the end added mostly to fulfill a certain requirement of today's gen of videogame's "needs epic cliffhanger without any sense of conclusion so the demand for another game will exist beyond actual game merits". The problem with this is exactly how was implemented, this is as open an unclear for the writers as it is for the players, we got the "interesting questions" but the dumb answers might just be around the corner (DLC, LOS2, etc.).

  
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 06:29:24 PM
Don't be afraid SIRHardle, we're all friends here, except some people need to be told off sometimes & calm the fuck down with that elitist bullshit.


I didn't have a problem with the narrative, the gameplay was great except for a few parts, but like you said the twist at the end felt too tacked on just for the sake of doing it. An ending where we see the next true Belmont gearing up ready to tackle the Demon Castle would've been ten times better. Hell, ANYTHING would've been better than "suddenly im dracula in the year 2000"
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: e105beta on November 12, 2010, 06:43:35 PM
I'm all up for debating the merits of something.

Which is why I'm disagreeing. I loved the twist. I thought, like Valtiel, turning Gabriel into Dracula not only set up a more compelling connection between the Belmonts and Dracula than just "our ancestor used to be BFFs with you, and then you became bad so now we fight". It also explained why Dracula would have a connection to an ally who controls a force as powerful as death, and it set up a good idea of where the series can go in the Cox timeline, while still leaving room for the traditional "Belmont vs Dracula" games.

It's like: you played the beginning, we're showing you the end, but how are we going to get there?
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 12, 2010, 06:52:07 PM
Yeah, I don't think we should really give LoS any benefit for leaving questions instead of dumb answer,s because it seems to have been mostly caused by dumb storytelling. I really doubt there could be a satisfactory follow up when the villains are so superficial with painfully shallow intentions. Plus, Gabriel is just so manipulated that I can't even see him as Dracula. Hell, Zobek even tries to use him when he IS Dracula. I'm not really seeing what the interesting questions are. Most of them just stem from the story being a bad origin story.
At the very least, IGA's stories are so superficial that they don't intrude on the gameplay. The most indication in AoS that it's in the future is just how there are handguns and an extra unlockable rifle meant for humor. The most Japanese you see in it is just in the prologue then quickly shot and left there, unless having a NPC who you have mostly optional interaction with dressed in Japanese garb bothers you.

I really don't see how this new connection is any more compelling than the one LoI had when Cox hasn't even properly explained the connection yet. It's really just grasping on a premature idea.
What I actually dislike most is how Dracula is suggested to have an enemy other than the Belmonts, and it's uh Satan himself. And Satan in LoS just had a very shallow reason for being evil! Zobek too even. The whole concept of leaving their bad sides behind is just so black and white, it's insulting to the complexity of human psyche. Original Castlevania canon suffers from that too, albeit it's more forgiving because of how unassuming it is compared to how serious and epic LoS wants to be.
So, I don't really think LoS is any better than the old canon. It just has more, but it doesn't do anything with the more.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 12, 2010, 07:55:45 PM
So I'm assuming the LoS epilogue will have Belmont(s) fighting Dracula while Dracula fights Satan while fighting Zobek?
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 13, 2010, 07:36:12 AM
Yeah, I don't think we should really give LoS any benefit for leaving questions instead of dumb answer,s because it seems to have been mostly caused by dumb storytelling.

Granted that you're entitled to your opinion (I'm not as harsh on this, for example), but you're missing the context. Whatever "dumbness" you can find in LoS' storytelling is still light years ahead of the series' standards, and you can't just dismiss that.

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I really doubt there could be a satisfactory follow up when the villains are so superficial with painfully shallow intentions.

Satan's motivations are plain more than shallow. You can't really do much more than that, he's probably the second most powerful being in the universe and his motives are necessarily obvious.
I'd disagree on Zobek's motivations. He's a rather complex character (by CV's standards, he's absurdely complex). He goes from trying to break a power lock between the forces of good and evil to scheming to eliminate his own allies to achieve supreme power to experiencing life as a mortal to simply craving for survival. Zobek's motivation in the ending is brilliantly simple. He's not scheming to conquer the world: he's just scared Satan will rape his ass. It's a case of K.I.S.S. that can lead to excellent narrative outcomes. Even if they were to stick to clichè (he'll plead for Drac's help to save his butt but still plot to obtain as much power as he can in the process), it will still be a decently complex contribution to the story.

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Plus, Gabriel is just so manipulated that I can't even see him as Dracula. Hell, Zobek even tries to use him when he IS Dracula.

You know, at some point Dracula was 4 years old, and his dad slapped him on his buttcheeks. And he cried!
I really can't see the logic of this point. At least Gabriel obtained his power by fighting; I was facepalming harder at Mathias having to ride on 2 different people's shoulders. I guess one could prefer one or the other approach, but I prefer a storyline that bases itself on the notion that Drac was at some point a good guy and got fooled by people he trusted than IGA's "everyone is an idiot but Mathias" scheme. Expecially when you consider that Vlad Tepes' own cruelty was most likely caused by the fact that he was heavily manipulated twice in his life. He payed a huge price from being betrayed by people he trusted and learned to be a monster because he wouldn't trust anyone anymore.
Also, I don't really see the ending sequence as Zobek trying to manipulate Drac. He's basically begging for help. Drac seems to be extremely weakened in the scene (he's probably locked himself there and maybe he didn't feed for weeks, or months, or years... Zobek mentions him being a shadow of his former self) and still he gets the jump on Zobek and doesn't seem to be concerned at all of Satan. Zobek knows he can't make it without Dracula; the opposite is probably not true.

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I'm not really seeing what the interesting questions are. Most of them just stem from the story being a bad origin story.

That's a legitimate opinion, but once again you should at least put it in context. Again, look at the poll.

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At the very least, IGA's stories are so superficial that they don't intrude on the gameplay.

BS, sorry. SCIV's story applies to that definition, and the game is awesome and some. IGA's stories are simply bad, and they do intrude the gameplay. Aria of Sorrow is a very decent CV and still the story made it incredibly painful to play for me.

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The most indication in AoS that it's in the future is just how there are handguns and an extra unlockable rifle meant for humor.
Given how critical you are of LoS' story, you can't praise AoS' story because it's fairly easy to ignore. Nobody forced IGA to put that story in the game: if the games don't need a story (which is an opinion I can possibly agree with) then don't put a crappy, overblown one in. AoS isn't a case of less is more. It's just less and crap.

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The most Japanese you see in it is just in the prologue then quickly shot and left there, unless having a NPC who you have mostly optional interaction with dressed in Japanese garb bothers you.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having japanese stuff in CV. The japanese mythos is full of wonderful ghosts and undeads and demons that CV could use to great effect. I would have nothing against a pagoda or shinto temple level, or a fully japanese themed CV. The problem is that IGA tried to cater to the anime crowd by (slackingly) turning CV into a show about superpowered college students. I consider that mindblowingly bad. In fact, almost nothing in AoS actually looks japanese - it's just drab shonen anime stuff.


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I really don't see how this new connection is any more compelling than the one LoI had when Cox hasn't even properly explained the connection yet. It's really just grasping on a premature idea.
LoI was a conclusive story. You had the Belmont origins, the Vampire Killer origin, the Death-Drac relationship origin and Dracula's origins. There was no mystery left; it wasn't a game that begun something, it was a game meant to justify what came after. It's natural that people who deeply enjoy what came after could like it. I really like LoI as a game and I while the story was nothing special once again it was pretty fantastic by CV's standards and despite its flaws at the time it was probably the best in the series. LoS has a much better origin story, in my opinion, but that's not the point.
The point is that LoS begins something; it's not tacked at the beginning of a story we already saw, but it begins a new one. Once again it could be crap, but people isn't "grasping on a premature idea". They're just excited by the possibility of a good legacy coming out of it. Something the IGA canon doesn't allow for anymore.

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What I actually dislike most is how Dracula is suggested to have an enemy other than the Belmonts, and it's uh Satan himself. And Satan in LoS just had a very shallow reason for being evil!
LoS was made in Europe. In our culture, Dracula and God (and the Devil by consequence) are strongly tied. Vlad's entire story and mythos is based on Christianity and his relationship with God. It may not make much sense in the perspective of the CV mythos, but it makes perfect sense in the perspective of Dracula's mythos.
If you want, the "original sin" of LoS is that of exploring Dracula more than CV's Dracula (not that there would be much to explore there). I appreciate Satan's presence in the game because it give context to Dracula. It empowers him - he justifies him as the prince of Darkness. He's not a random bloodsucking undead guy, he's tied to the source of all evil, like his powers were tied to the source of all good in the Vlad legend. But yes, it's a very long sidestep from the serie's staples, so I can see why you could not be too hot about it.
As for Satan's motives... what can you add? He's not human. He isn't evil. He IS Evil. What further motives could he have? Again, I appreciate the K.I.S.S. approach here. Making Satan more "human" by giving him too complex and convoluted reasons.

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Zobek too even. The whole concept of leaving their bad sides behind is just so black and white, it's insulting to the complexity of human psyche. Original Castlevania canon suffers from that too, albeit it's more forgiving because of how unassuming it is compared to how serious and epic LoS wants to be.
So, I don't really think LoS is any better than the old canon. It just has more, but it doesn't do anything with the more.

I think it's underdeveloped, if anything. The entire concept of the evil sides left behind is great... but they didn't do enough with it. What would Carmilla think of being essentially forced to be evil? We won't ever know. Again, the complexity is for the most part only hinted, and they need to up the ante in the next game, but once again, it's lightyears ahead of IGA's stuff.

Opinions, I guess.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Nagumo on November 13, 2010, 11:43:22 AM
I thought it was pretty clear Dracula is going to be the protagonist of the next name. Cox intented him to be a real Belmont and that's all you're going to get in the sequel. There won't be any connection between the Belmont family and Dracula other then that they are united in one person.

Mark my words.           
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 13, 2010, 03:14:36 PM
well, yeah, that's why you don't use satan. he's plain and the only good use for him is in parodies or bad stuff that takes itself too seriously. it's stupid to sacrifice complexity just to use the ultimate bad. as for the context thing, i really dont find it needed, at least in the context of the original canon's conflict. but, im not fond of the conflict that los is suggesting so~

i really don't find how los's storytelling is light years ahead of the series' standards either. it just has more. the scrolls reveal a lot of background, but it's fluff and not even relevant to the plot most of the time. zobek's narratives are far too numerous and long to serve the little purpose they did have, the foreshadowing or whatever. most of the time they just recap. the other times cutscenes are just used to set up fetch quests, puzzles, or reasons to suddenly skip into a new place. well, then there are those few scenes that actually push the plot. i'm not sure how that's any better than the other castlevanias. los's storytelling just prides itself on redundancy than effective storytelling. you could probably part the blame on its longevity.

im still not sure why aos's story would intrude on you during gameplay. the cutscenes are almost a rarity and circumstances rarely change because of a cutscene. even when yoko's stabbed, that really does not affect what you're doing. the only time a cutscene directs you somewhere is when arikado tells you you're dracula in the throne. plus you know, i would still count drab shounen crap as japanese. i think the only time that really shows is in the prologue of dos when you're in a city. if anything, dos is the anime plot. and yeah, it's absolutely horrible. los isn't worse than dos and por though! also, the dumbest point in aos was graham himself. or at least, his beliefs. oh god, graham. at least his dialogue was written decently. or maybe it was to suggest his lunacy and how he wasn't really the main threat or... whatever.

i guess you can say that los has more scope and daring ideas, but it just brings out the flaws more when they're so underdeveloped. and when you have a slew of ideas that are underdeveloped, i feel that really hurts the story more than just a very minimal story that's bad. it's more like less and crap, or more and crap.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on November 13, 2010, 03:21:18 PM
I think it's underdeveloped, if anything. The entire concept of the evil sides left behind is great... but they didn't do enough with it. What would Carmilla think of being essentially forced to be evil? We won't ever know. Again, the complexity is for the most part only hinted, and they need to up the ante in the next game, but once again, it's lightyears ahead of IGA's stuff.
But on par with the crap Tetsuya Nomura does, which isn't a compliment. The whole "evil side"/"good side"/"multiple sides" thing reminded me of the horrid Heartless/Nobody crap in Kingdom Hearts(which I absolutely can't stand).
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 13, 2010, 03:32:17 PM
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv119%2Fc0mbat%2FUntitled-4.jpg&hash=a91e3b95a357521a7b1ff5b03414e496a8e741f5)



sry couldnt resist xD
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: VeteranVk on November 13, 2010, 05:50:27 PM
I'm all up for debating the merits of something.

Which is why I'm disagreeing. I loved the twist. I thought, like Valtiel, turning Gabriel into Dracula not only set up a more compelling connection between the Belmonts and Dracula than just "our ancestor used to be BFFs with you, and then you became bad so now we fight". It also explained why Dracula would have a connection to an ally who controls a force as powerful as death, and it set up a good idea of where the series can go in the Cox timeline, while still leaving room for the traditional "Belmont vs Dracula" games.

It's like: you played the beginning, we're showing you the end, but how are we going to get there?

You see? This is the point I was trying to make when I started this topic.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv119%2Fc0mbat%2FUntitled-4.jpg&hash=a91e3b95a357521a7b1ff5b03414e496a8e741f5)



sry couldnt resist xD


And I assure you, Im not the creator of the original Ghosts and Goblins.  :P
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Munchy on November 14, 2010, 12:20:14 AM
Am I the only one who thinks both IGA's and LoS's Dracula origin story are equally dumb? I liked it better when Dracula was just his own guy and didn't have like fifteen fucking pseudonyms and stories about where he might have come from. Dracula reincarnating as a Spanish exchange student is stupid and LoS's story arc is ripped straight out of fucking Star Wars and God of War simultaneously, especially with the whole
(click to show/hide)
angle.

Why not have future games elaborate on the history of the Castle itself? It's really important and yet it gets the shaft much of the time in favor of more of the goddamn same GWARAR REVENGE stories.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: C Belmont on November 14, 2010, 01:21:55 AM
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I thought, like Valtiel, turning Gabriel into Dracula not only set up a more compelling connection between the Belmonts and Dracula than just "our ancestor used to be BFFs with you, and then you became bad so now we fight". It also explained why Dracula would have a connection to an ally who controls a force as powerful as death, and it set up a good idea of where the series can go in the Cox timeline, while still leaving room for the traditional "Belmont vs Dracula" games.

I'm honestly hoping that Cox's vision for Castlevania isn't quite as twisted as it first appears, however didn't he say "You should forget everything you know about Castlevania because this is starting over" ?

The idea that LOS's timeline will introduce a new string of Belmonts is entirely based off past expectations regarding Castlevania, forget absolutely everything and the possibilities which LOS opens up seem far less appealing particluarly for Belmont fans.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Hanniballistic on November 14, 2010, 04:17:43 AM
Can we all quit kidding ourselves?  LoS is not Castlevania.  Call it a reboot all you want, most "reboots" retain some semblance of the original.  LoS has names, and a few of the same enemies but it doesn't feel like Castlevania.  Doesn't mean I hate the game.  I like it alot, but to sit here and argue that it's "better" than IGA's Castlevania is absurd.  They are NOTHING alike.  And if you write down a big list of little references and enemies I will scream.  That's nit-picking.

They should have tweaked it and made a new IP.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 14, 2010, 07:05:17 AM
I thought it was pretty clear Dracula is going to be the protagonist of the next name. Cox intented him to be a real Belmont and that's all you're going to get in the sequel. There won't be any connection between the Belmont family and Dracula other then that they are united in one person.

Mark my words.           


It's definitely a possibility. I wouldn't be too sure tho - it's definitely an harder game to pull off right, and I'm sure Cox is aware too.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 14, 2010, 07:07:26 AM
Can we all quit kidding ourselves?  LoS is not Castlevania.  Call it a reboot all you want, most "reboots" retain some semblance of the original.  LoS has names, and a few of the same enemies but it doesn't feel like Castlevania.  Doesn't mean I hate the game.  I like it alot, but to sit here and argue that it's "better" than IGA's Castlevania is absurd.  They are NOTHING alike.  And if you write down a big list of little references and enemies I will scream.  That's nit-picking.

They should have tweaked it and made a new IP.

LoS is not IGAvania. But it really has no continuity issues with the continuity till SCIV. None.

Remember that IGA built, weaved and absorbed older games in "his" canon.

LoS feels a lot closer to SCIV (or Simon's Quest) in atmosphere and themes than AoS or PoR do. You can't just throw a blanket statement like that without considering how much IGA changed the saga.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 14, 2010, 07:10:03 AM
Am I the only one who thinks both IGA's and LoS's Dracula origin story are equally dumb? I liked it better when Dracula was just his own guy and didn't have like fifteen fucking pseudonyms and stories about where he might have come from. Dracula reincarnating as a Spanish exchange student is stupid and LoS's story arc is ripped straight out of fucking Star Wars and God of War simultaneously, especially with the whole
(click to show/hide)
angle.

Why not have future games elaborate on the history of the Castle itself? It's really important and yet it gets the shaft much of the time in favor of more of the goddamn same GWARAR REVENGE stories.

Well, Gabriel's story is, before anything else, a reinterpretation of Vlad Tepes' myth. A champion of Christianity that sacrifices much to protect his people and his faith, is betrayed by a fellow representative of the same faith and ends up being a monster for the desperation of having lost his wife because of his dedication to God.

If you see SW and GoW in that you can't blame the developers. We shouldn't throw away the entire Dracula myth when considering Dracula games because someone made games or movies with similar stories.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 14, 2010, 07:22:03 AM
But on par with the crap Tetsuya Nomura does, which isn't a compliment. The whole "evil side"/"good side"/"multiple sides" thing reminded me of the horrid Heartless/Nobody crap in Kingdom Hearts(which I absolutely can't stand).

Delivered like this? You're probably right. I see some potential tho - I wouldn't want CV go theology-deep in their stories, but the entire idea of what is "evil" in a Christian-inspired mythology is a huge bucket to fish in.

LoS' plot focused little on the relationship between the good and bad side of the Lords (which probably spared us some Nomura nonsense) but did a good job in hinting that ascending to absolute goodness was ultimately a selfish act. There's no light without shadow - instead of staying mortal the Lords chose to unleash evil on the land to achieve "bliss". You can easily imagine Gabriel breaking up from his beliefs when faced with that. He's basically stuck on Earth to fight the good fight while everyone he sided with either chose a selfish, nichilistic perfect existance or actually is siding with the evil he's supposed to fight. He's got his wife taken from him and he can't join her and can't get his "reward" for all he did. He'll get pissed soon. He'll get bad, and this nicely leads to Dracula.

A lot of people observed Gabe was too easily manipulated to become the "mastermind evil" Dracula is supposed to be. Maybe his next step will be becoming that. He'll be bitter now, and not trust many, and he's got the potential to absolutely become that kind of character. It's nothing nearly comparable to being shown that Vader was a pussy once. If anything, Gabriel was one hell of a warrior. He will have centuries to "get smart".

Of course, this can completely fall flat on its face if the next games don't capitalize on that.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 14, 2010, 07:32:25 AM

i guess you can say that los has more scope and daring ideas, but it just brings out the flaws more when they're so underdeveloped. and when you have a slew of ideas that are underdeveloped, i feel that really hurts the story more than just a very minimal story that's bad. it's more like less and crap, or more and crap.


It's an absolutely respectable opinion, and I couldn't or wouldn't want to change it.

I personally feel LoS' story had 3 main advantages over what we usually get:

1) delivery. Seriously, the entire history of CV is made of two characters facing off on a still screen exchanging lines of text before facing off. In LoS we had stuff like Carmilla's death, the entirety of chapter IV, Laura, ch 11... it comes to life before your eyes. Yes, epic for the sake of epic isn't anything we should absolutely strive for, but to me it was completely welcome to see my favourite series get some of the best action set pieces in the industry, and dialogue delivered by top notch actors.

2) it did gothic good after so many questionable games. I still think OoE nailed the right atmosphere in a way that is closer to CV's heart, but still I absolutely loved the aesthetics of the game. The crypts, the butcher, basically every chapter after IV... that's how CV should look like in 3d.

3) and as I said before, it sparked some life in the series. Prolly because it's a reboot, and that was inevitable, but I like sitting here and thinking "where will the story go next?".
Would I have preferred to do so in the MAIN canon of the series? In a continuity with the old mythos? Hell yes. But IGA happened, AoS happened and I can finally be excited for something new instead of being stuck complaining about "main" games that some other people legitimately appreciate, and simply annoying them to no end. Between you and me, I'm probably the one who is more sour. You didn't like LoS, but that's one game and all hints point at the fact that the "main" storyline will keep moving in IGA's hands - so you're likely to get more of what you like. I've been stuck with disliking much of the last CV games for years now, and now my favourite title in years is a sidestep game that doesn't feature a lot of the characteristics that make me love CV.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Black Cat on November 14, 2010, 08:34:18 AM
Delivered like this? You're probably right. I see some potential tho - I wouldn't want CV go theology-deep in their stories, but the entire idea of what is "evil" in a Christian-inspired mythology is a huge bucket to fish in.

LoS' plot focused little on the relationship between the good and bad side of the Lords (which probably spared us some Nomura nonsense) but did a good job in hinting that ascending to absolute goodness was ultimately a selfish act. There's no light without shadow - instead of staying mortal the Lords chose to unleash evil on the land to achieve "bliss". You can easily imagine Gabriel breaking up from his beliefs when faced with that. He's basically stuck on Earth to fight the good fight while everyone he sided with either chose a selfish, nichilistic perfect existance or actually is siding with the evil he's supposed to fight. He's got his wife taken from him and he can't join her and can't get his "reward" for all he did. He'll get pissed soon. He'll get bad, and this nicely leads to Dracula.

Actually the bestiary says the Founders were deceived (Cornell's words and the Satan reveal support this). They had no idea that they would leave behind the LOS in their place. Though you could make a case for them being guilty of greed; they coveted more power after the tide of war had turned in their favor.

But on par with the crap Tetsuya Nomura does, which isn't a compliment. The whole "evil side"/"good side"/"multiple sides" thing reminded me of the horrid Heartless/Nobody crap in Kingdom Hearts(which I absolutely can't stand).

Kingdom Hearts is incredibly heavy handed with the light/dark stuff. This game doesn't have enough cutscenes to even come close to competing in that area.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 14, 2010, 03:13:31 PM
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1) delivery. Seriously, the entire history of CV is made of two characters facing off on a still screen exchanging lines of text before facing off. In LoS we had stuff like Carmilla's death, the entirety of chapter IV, Laura, ch 11... it comes to life before your eyes. Yes, epic for the sake of epic isn't anything we should absolutely strive for, but to me it was completely welcome to see my favourite series get some of the best action set pieces in the industry, and dialogue delivered by top notch actors.
This.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: X on November 14, 2010, 06:17:58 PM
Am I the only one who thinks both IGA's and LoS's Dracula origin story are equally dumb?

you're not the only one. I'm not too thrilled with them either. Well, mainly concerning IGA's Dracula origins anyway since it buggered up what was already established. LoS' Dracula origins is a slightly different take, but it's still too far back in the past for Dracula to emerge and the fact that IGA's character names are being recycled like his sprites, really don't help matters at all. LoS would've been much better if all the characters were new and not IGA recycled.

-X
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Joachim on November 14, 2010, 07:31:10 PM
Quote
1) delivery. Seriously, the entire history of CV is made of two characters facing off on a still screen exchanging lines of text before facing off. In LoS we had stuff like Carmilla's death, the entirety of chapter IV, Laura, ch 11... it comes to life before your eyes. Yes, epic for the sake of epic isn't anything we should absolutely strive for, but to me it was completely welcome to see my favourite series get some of the best action set pieces in the industry, and dialogue delivered by top notch actors.
I mean, kind of. It was nice to have big name voice actors, but none of them really lived up to their names; the writing was terrible, and they were sleeping through their performances. Carlyle, especially. If i had to say, I'd rather the presentation of something like Curse or Darkness than the overly epic for the sake of being epic (similarly, you can substitute "epic" for other words like Raw or Brutal) stylings of Lords.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 14, 2010, 08:50:34 PM
Gotta love the anime fight between Hector and Isaac at Cordoba.
...Well, not to say that the fight choreography in LoS's cutscenes were any less ridiculous.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on November 14, 2010, 10:36:47 PM
Kingdom Hearts is incredibly heavy handed with the light/dark stuff. This game doesn't have enough cutscenes to even come close to competing in that area.
Hopefully it never will, and that's not wishing ill on any future installments. They shouldn't beat that type of thing into your head like Nomura did. Though, with Nomura, considering he's not the best writer at Square, it seems like his ideas are a guise to TRY to make the game's lore more deeper than it actually is. Because, trying to make something seem more "convoluted" gives people the impression that it's "deep", or so he thinks. I think that's one of the reasons he tries to toss in all this symbolism. Funny, he also has a hard-on for Latin, which might've been cool hearing in the lyrics of One Winged Angel and Liberi Fatali, but sure as hell isn't something I want to see in every corner, like in Versus(all the towns and locations are in Latin).
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: JR on November 14, 2010, 11:41:54 PM
1) delivery. Seriously, the entire history of CV is made of two characters facing off on a still screen exchanging lines of text before facing off. In LoS we had stuff like Carmilla's death, the entirety of chapter IV, Laura, ch 11... it comes to life before your eyes. Yes, epic for the sake of epic isn't anything we should absolutely strive for, but to me it was completely welcome to see my favourite series get some of the best action set pieces in the industry, and dialogue delivered by top notch actors.


I totally agree. Although some might've thought the plot wasn't any better than IGA's stuff, I thought it was executed much, much better. It was a fairly simple story, but it seemed much more competently done this time around.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 15, 2010, 07:01:08 AM
... the writing was terrible...

Now now, let's be honest here. If LoS' writing is terrible, 95% of the videogame stories are terrible. I guess we could say that, but even in that case, the vast majority of games are much worse than LoS.

LoS' writing isn't the second coming, delivery is often too heavy handed, but if you played some action games recently, DMC4, Bayonetta and GoW3 make LoS look Oscar-worthy.

I'm extremely critic on the story of LoS (because it could have been 10 times more awesome), but it's not "terrible". It's "passable".
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 15, 2010, 12:13:30 PM
Well, yeah, most videogame stories are terrible. Just because the vast majority of games have terrible stories doesn't make LoS any better. pfft, relativity.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 15, 2010, 12:23:09 PM
Well, yeah, most videogame stories are terrible. Just because the vast majority of games have terrible stories doesn't make LoS any better. pfft, relativity.

The problem isn't relativity, it's hyperbole. It's either perfect or crap. It rocks or it sucks. There's no middle ground. Yes, AoS' story is a 2, but LoS is a 6, and since neither is a 10, they both suck.

It's what makes it extremely hard to discuss things on the Internet. It's a bunch of guys saying XXX is the game of the forever until a dude comes to say it's utter crap.

Point being, the vast majority of games have worse stories than LoS delivered in a worse way. This doesn't make LoS a masterpiece, but also doesn't allow you to dismiss it like it was SotN. They're not on the same level. It doesn't need to be perfect to be worth something.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 15, 2010, 12:59:30 PM
I think it's more like out of all the game stories I know, most of them just range from bad to mediocre. So I am just there staring at the pile of stories sadly. Notice that the pile is just chillaxing. It isn't really a sweat knowing you're in the pile. They're passable and they know it. This is when LoS comes up to me, this tiny little guy, and he rips his shirt off and flexes all he's got. And I see him trying and trying, and I'm like, "Bro, you are no different!" So I fling him into the pile, but LoS keeps jumps out and keeps following me, thrusting and flexing in front of me wherever I go, shouting, "Let me show you my worth! Just open up your heart, dude!" And he shows me all these tricks, but they are just badly done or he does them halfway then gives up because he wants to try something else. It is all very tiring. Then one day, LoS comes up to me and tells me he's way cooler now and shows me this tattoo stating that he is now a satanist. "Isn't this totally rad?" he says. Awkward silence before I mutter, "N-no, you're bad. S-stop trying to be so epic, it's making you TWICE AS BAD." LoS screams that the cake is a lie and jumps into a river.

But we value LoS differently so *snort*
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on November 15, 2010, 01:01:45 PM
Wow, the way you put it is so egocentric.

Story isn't bad, game is pretty good.  If they make a sequel, great.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 15, 2010, 01:16:17 PM
yes, it was very fun to write.
i kinda prefer subtlety and leanness so i guess i could never love los's story~
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Joachim on November 15, 2010, 01:54:57 PM
Quote
Now now, let's be honest here. If LoS' writing is terrible, 95% of the videogame stories are terrible. I guess we could say that, but even in that case, the vast majority of games are much worse than LoS.
Yeah, most video game stories are bad, or at the very least not very good; but that doesn't really justify its perpetuation, it just means that the medium is a collective failure in that regard.

   And with my writing comment, I was talking about the writing itself, the dialogue and presentation of the ideas moreso than the story itself. Most games don't have very good writing either, but in a sea of mediocrity or amusingly passable entries, you have Lords which comes along and throws out multiple variations of WE'RE NOT SO DIFFERENT, YOU AND I; it's embarrassing, honestly, in a way that Symphony or Curse or Lament never could be.

Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 15, 2010, 02:47:19 PM
Yeah, most video game stories are bad, or at the very least not very good; but that doesn't really justify its perpetuation, it just means that the medium is a collective failure in that regard.

   And with my writing comment, I was talking about the writing itself, the dialogue and presentation of the ideas moreso than the story itself. Most games don't have very good writing either, but in a sea of mediocrity or amusingly passable entries, you have Lords which comes along and throws out multiple variations of WE'RE NOT SO DIFFERENT, YOU AND I; it's embarrassing, honestly, in a way that Symphony or Curse or Lament never could be.



You don't want me to dig the horror of those 3 games scripts, do you  ;D ?

I think we are also harsher critics when it comes to games. It's not like LoS is worse written then most genre movies we got showered with every summer either, but we're getting in another discussion here.

I don't know, I have some expertise as far as writing novels and scripts go, and I think there's a lot to like in the videogame world. It's not nearly as formulaic as the movie scene is, and it's actually full of flawed gems. The problem is that gamers are often very immature critics, because their version of a "reading club" is the internets, so instead of discussing what they like with people willing to listen, they're confronted daily with angry teenagers who take pleasure on pissing on what someone else likes.

I could come here and tell you that Vagrant Story is an extremely well written game, but it's flawed, and someone could jump at those flaws and use them to claim the game "sucks" and all that. It's what I said above - we confront on our "toys" in a very aggressive environment. I could use internet rethorics to "prove" you that the Brothers Karamazov sucks and the entire book past the Great Inquisitor chapter is worth nothing or that Kubrick was an eye-candy specialist with the narrative skills of a 3rd grader.
By the standard we set ourselves for saying that "videogames stories suck", both the abovement statements could be considered correct. I prefer to think the standards are flawed.

And once again, context. If you like fantasy or sci fi, you think modern novelists are doing any better than videogames recently? Rule out Martin for a second, and boy, if he's the best, we're sort of screwed no?
When nothing is ever good enough, it may be worth considering if we're not the problem.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Joachim on November 15, 2010, 03:38:57 PM
Quote
When nothing is ever good enough,
Is this a general statement, or is this directed at me? I should probably specify that I'm arguing generalities, tendencies, irrelevant of the few standouts; ICO and Shadow of the Colossus both have fantastic story, and what little writing there is does its job very well. Where those two games really excel, however, is in their presentation; video games are inherently unique in their capabilities, and those two games did a good job of building up the story using every facet of the medium, including the gameplay. This is something that only video games can do (utilize a consistently interactive element within an existing visual/auditory soundscape), and yet very few games actually attempt to tap into this potential. The trend has been to make gameplay irrelevant - its a means to getting from point a to point b, so that you can watch event c unfold; except that neither of these things really connect - getting from point A to point B is never regarded as being about getting to event C, it's about getting from point A to point B; similarly, event C is never about the act of getting from point A to point B - it's simply about being event C. Lords of Shadow is no different, and before anyone thinks of it, quick-time events strewn throughout cut-scenes are no remedy.

ICO built it's gameplay around the idea of making you care about Yorda, and Shadow of the Colossus built its gameplay around intelligently taking down the Colossi and observing them, making you prone to notice that not all of them are aggressive and that some of them are more curious and sorrowful.

Quote
You don't want me to dig the horror of those 3 games scripts, do you
No need, I've played through all of them multiple times. Symphony's script is one of the more interesting to me, as it often teeters between legitimately well-composed to nonsensical or redundant cheese. (lords is almost entirely nonsensical/redundant cheese: this is exacerbated by it's attempts at a "professional" or "epic" presentation)

Quote
If you like fantasy or sci fi, you think modern novelists are doing any better than videogames recently?
Novelists, I wouldn't know; I haven't read much in the way of modern novels, most of my experience as of late is with 1984 and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. When it comes to sci-fi television, though, I'd say the writing is improving quite a bit; it's maturing. BSG was great (for the most part), and Stargate Universe and Caprica are both fantastic.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 17, 2010, 10:51:54 AM
Quote
I wouldn't know; I haven't read much in the way of modern novels,
DING DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner! An extra illlustrated critic with no literature background, the epic!
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 17, 2010, 11:24:30 AM
ding ding ding. he said MODERN novels. he still read novels, albeit just not any from the last few years. i guess you just can't read!
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 17, 2010, 11:37:37 AM

No need, I've played through all of them multiple times. Symphony's script is one of the more interesting to me, as it often teeters between legitimately well-composed to nonsensical or redundant cheese. (lords is almost entirely nonsensical/redundant cheese: this is exacerbated by it's attempts at a "professional" or "epic" presentation)


This statement certainly tips my curiosity, considering how Symphony's "script" is probably less than a single page of dialogue.

I have the maximum respect for your opinion, but I beg for an explanation because the comparison between Lords and Symphony doesn't stand. It's not just that I don't see Lords as being nearly as bad as you depicted it (judged as a videogame and not a novel, to be clear), but that Symphony has about as much story as Pacman. Mind = blown.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Joachim on November 17, 2010, 02:37:13 PM
I find Symphony's script to be more interesting than most because of its "promise": it teeters around, unaware of how exactly to do what it's trying to do, but it does so with this sense of intrigue and promise; it has some utterly terrible scenes and lines, like "Darkling, I smell your blood!". But there are also lines in the game that have surprised me, or struck me as more interesting over time; lines like "What need for the shepherd when the wolves have all gone...?" and "You claim to love the darkness, so go then, and dwell there for all of eternity" tickle my fancy.

It is a memorable, short and ultimately campy script but it carries itself with a sense of effort, with a sense of charm and heart. It's not a legitimately great script, but i've always been more intrigued by the brilliantly flawed than the "just pretty great" sort anyway.

As far as lords go, the script tries to carry itself with a sense of drama and epic grandeur, but it throws out lines like "This is why you are cast out, unholy one!" and "We're not so different, you and I". The narratives are excessive and redundant, with winners like "Darkness is all around him, surrounding him from all sides."

Quote
DING DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner! An extra illlustrated critic with no literature background, the epic!
because modern novels are the only source of writing, yes?

Quote
I have the maximum respect for your opinion
Thank you.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 17, 2010, 03:00:59 PM
I find Symphony's script to be more interesting than most because of its "promise": it teeters around, unaware of how exactly to do what it's trying to do, but it does so with this sense of intrigue and promise; it has some utterly terrible scenes and lines, like "Darkling, I smell your blood!". But there are also lines in the game that have surprised me, or struck me as more interesting over time; lines like "What need for the shepherd when the wolves have all gone...?" and "You claim to love the darkness, so go then, and dwell there for all of eternity" tickle my fancy.



Ah, I get it now, I was assuming you were referring to the script as a whole, including the narrative structure. In which case, yes, I can see why you'd think that Symphony throws around quite a few interesting one-liners.

In fact, given how unconcerned SotN actually is with having a story or making any sort of sense, it gains complete freedom to dwell and relish on having quick intermissions where characters exchange cool quotes and whatnot. I don't agree with you on why those quotes are cool, tho - SotN's quotes are much more overblown and "cheesy", but not having the burden of a story to carry, they're free to be what they are without concerning themselves with anything else.

I could chime in on how absolutely pretentious those lines in SotN end up being, but I would commit the same crime I'm accusing you of committing towards LoS  ;D .

Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Joachim on November 17, 2010, 03:24:49 PM
well, I did say it was imbued with a heavy sense of camp.

Quote
In fact, given how unconcerned SotN actually is with having a story or making any sort of sense,
I thought it made a decent amount of sense. S:

well, aside from how shaft came back. that was never explained.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on November 17, 2010, 03:31:02 PM
I think Shaft is just clever at astral-projecting and was never really killed in Rondo of Blood.  He kept using those Green Crystals as vessels for his essence.

Richter/Maria takes him down in Rondo of Blood at the "A Nightmare Reborn/Undying Melody" stage, but that's a ploy.
They defeat his ghost at the ceremonial room at the end of the Clock Tower, at the door to the Castle Keep but that's revealed to be another one of them little green round crystals.
Alucard defeats it as Richter's Influence when he puts on the Holy Glasses (Yeah it's another stupid green crystal hovering invisibly above Richter and influencing him)
Alucard defeats the final crystal (I guess?) at the end of Symphony of the Night.  The only reason I think this is the final defeats is because the crystal is huge and has two large runic amplifiers encircling it.... and it finally cracks and shatters at the end of that battle.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 17, 2010, 03:31:10 PM
Quote
well, aside from how shaft came back. that was never explained.

Dracula's magic.


or, GOD MASK...!
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: CristopherLee on November 17, 2010, 03:36:33 PM
I want to add one thing:

Was pretty obvius for me during the course of the game that Gabriel would became Dracula... the entire script seems to be constructed from the idea to explain how a man became a monster (like in a gangster movie!). Actually, I was VERY dissapointed when, at the end of the game, our hero is still alive... Until the post-credit scene, of course that he is pretty much undead.

The only thing that I (and many others) expect from now is Gabriel's sons (Belmonts and Alucard). He will fall in love again during the DLC episodes or Marie had some childs that are now hidden?
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Koutei on November 17, 2010, 03:39:44 PM
well, aside from how shaft came back. that was never explained.
From DXC Japanese Official Guide Book 009page.

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/tdxc-guidebook.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-rob/tdxc-guidebook.htm)

Shaft:
The soul is moved to another place.
Even if the body is lost, power can be used through the crystal ball.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: RichterB on November 17, 2010, 05:30:21 PM
In the LoS vs. LoI story battle, it's funny that LoS had to grab so much from LoI, and in the end, really didn't top its predecessor in terms of overall story. Gabriel was far less nuanced than Leon, and Zobek (when "good") is a poor man's Rinaldo--I mean, Rinaldo even gets name-dropped about a dozen times in LoS! Evil Zobek and/or the Devil vs. Walter and/or Matthias? I just found neither of the former to be as cunning or interesting as the latter (and those former two felt like they had even less to do with CV). **LoI made me FEEL something.** Whether it was far-fetched or not, whether you liked that it tried to bring a loose alchemical logic to the magic of CV or not, it felt like it could be an origin story. It really built up its characters and their interconnected tragedies in-game with the conversations and boss battles as opposed to the many, distant narrative monologues of LoS. It linked Dracula and the Belmonts better than previously. It was not just a betrayal of a friend, but both were powered by different facets of love and vengeance--Matthias lead toward the power of Dracula from his lost love, Leon lent the power to overcome Dracula by Sara's sacrificial love. By the end, I was ready to go on another journey with Leon. I really liked Leon and was sympathetic to him for what I'd gone through with him. LoS was loud and bombastic, but lacked heart. Now, i don't want or need CV to be Shakespeare, but if it's going to go that way, it can at least accomplish what LoI did in terms of emotional investment. I just find LoS superfluous and lacking in a legitimate connection to Castlevania at large as a restart in the way that, say, Batman Begins relevantly restarted the Batman movie franchise.

As an aside, I felt cheated by the masks. I didn't care for them to begin with, but the way it was hyped about "two" masks, I thought there would be an inherent/consequential duality to one mask maybe or something more complex and nuanced than just "oh, by the way, I've had this second mask the whole time in my back pocket and have been manipulating you with it, and now you get to see it at the last stage after only seeing a flash of it in stage [3?]!" Give me a break. And then you just leave it there for Gabriel to presumably snatch in a fit of emo distress? Huh, I am seeing the Drac connection between Gabriel and Soma now. :P It's to the point where it would have been better if it had simply been the case that to use the God Mask to resurrect his wife, he has to forfeit/corrupt his own ala SotC. The story was just so unrewarding and off in left field the way it brought out the biblical big-baddie, Deus ex Machina style.

The only thing that I (and many others) expect from now is Gabriel's sons (Belmonts and Alucard). He will fall in love again during the DLC episodes or Marie had some childs that are now hidden?

Uh-oh. Laura is confirmed for DLC and was love-lorn in LoS...is she going to be Alucard's new mother?  ::)

Can we all quit kidding ourselves?  LoS is not Castlevania.  Call it a reboot all you want, most "reboots" retain some semblance of the original.  LoS has names, and a few of the same enemies but it doesn't feel like Castlevania.  Doesn't mean I hate the game.  I like it alot, but to sit here and argue that it's "better" than IGA's Castlevania is absurd.  They are NOTHING alike.  And if you write down a big list of little references and enemies I will scream.  That's nit-picking.

They should have tweaked it and made a new IP.

Somebody had to quote this. This is basically what I feel. Think about it long enough, and take one's hunger for a new/competent 3D CV game out of the equation, and this game has only token connections with Castlevania. (For instance, if you put a castle and a vampire in "Rygar: The Battle of Argus," which also features whip-like mechanics for both combat and traversing stages, and even features at least one stage royally borrowed from in LoS, it wouldn't make it Castlevania). As a whole, with where LoS' story and setting goes, it's a new franchise. I think once it went all biblical at the end, that's when it really decided to jump the shark once and for all. It was a fine, entertaining game in its own right, but it lacked that special pizazz of Castlevania. I was there when SCVIV came out, and experienced Simon's Quest during its era, and this game has less than 10% to do with them (and that's being generous). I'm not going to praise IGA, either, mind you...but this game tried to appeal to too broad an audience with too broad a world, resulting in a lukewarm (at best) CV feeling. Not all the necessary game design elements were present, either, but that's for another topic.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Hanniballistic on November 18, 2010, 12:20:41 AM
DING DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner! An extra illlustrated critic with no literature background, the epic!

Sarcasm, the poor man's wit.

Do you have to be so arrogant?
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: uzo on November 18, 2010, 12:51:35 AM
ITT Ahasverus being off putting and presumptuous. Oh, right, that's all threads.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 18, 2010, 05:31:17 AM
Well, to his credit you need to consider EVERY LoS discussion is broken up by a "LoS isn't CV/it sucks/SotN's story was better!" rant every 2 posts, by the same 3-4 people. If you do happen to like LoS, I guess it can be quite annoying, expecially when some of the criticism is so far fetched.
I think subjectivity is to be respected, but if you go over 15 lines calling LoS' story crap and then you say you foundt LoI involving or its characters more "nuanced", you at least rise the suspicion of intellectual dishonesty.

But it's the same every time a new game comes out: the people who like it generally stop talking about it quite soon, while the "haters" go on forever, and eventually a fan will go on a witch hunt to fight them.... and we pop out the popcorn  ;D .
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Black Cat on November 18, 2010, 07:21:09 AM
But it's the same every time a new game comes out: the people who like it generally stop talking about it quite soon, while the "haters" go on forever, and eventually a fan will go on a witch hunt to fight them.... and we pop out the popcorn  ;D .

Perfect description of the board at gamefaqs right about now.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Alutwon on November 18, 2010, 12:57:28 PM
Well, to his credit you need to consider EVERY LoS discussion is broken up by a "LoS isn't CV/it sucks/SotN's story was better!" rant every 2 posts, by the same 3-4 people. If you do happen to like LoS, I guess it can be quite annoying, expecially when some of the criticism is so far fetched.
I think subjectivity is to be respected, but if you go over 15 lines calling LoS' story crap and then you say you foundt LoI involving or its characters more "nuanced", you at least rise the suspicion of intellectual dishonesty.

But it's the same every time a new game comes out: the people who like it generally stop talking about it quite soon, while the "haters" go on forever, and eventually a fan will go on a witch hunt to fight them.... and we pop out the popcorn  ;D .

/Thread
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 18, 2010, 06:23:35 PM
LoI's characters aren't more nuanced at all. lol.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: RichterB on November 18, 2010, 07:52:09 PM
I think subjectivity is to be respected, but if you go over 15 lines calling LoS' story crap and then you say you foundt LoI involving or its characters more "nuanced", you at least rise the suspicion of intellectual dishonesty.
Valtiel, that was pretty rude. Gotta call it. Look, I hate to say it, but by and large (and to keep it simple), Gabriel was an emo, man-grunting oaf, and Zobek was the power-mad villain who twirls his mustache while he recites poetry. I'm sorry, but how much more stale/cliche can you get than saying the Devil is the dark mastermind at the 11th hour? ("Muhahahaha, you monkey, Belmont!") How is that clearly & significantly better than LoI to the extent that you can talk so sardonically of an opinion and place LoS on a high, untouchable pedestal? I didn't say LoI was fine literature by any means, but it kept me more engaged than some MacGuffin story about a fragmented, all-powerful mask (IE: Twilight Princess), and was more rooted in the mythology of Castlevania itself. LoI wasn't perfect, and I'm not a huge fan of IGA, but it was a more centralized, personal story when you think of the way it is slowly revealed how Leon and Rinaldo's lives intersect with the games of Walter and the conspiracy of Mathias.

PS: Just so you know I wasn't pulling the Rygar stuff out of thin air. Think about LoS' Necromancer's Abyss, and then look at this: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/rygar/rygarps2-8.jpg (http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/rygar/rygarps2-8.jpg)
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/rygar/rygarps2-11.jpg (http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/rygar/rygarps2-11.jpg)

LoI's characters aren't more nuanced at all. lol.
OK...And as for the "nuanced" quote, look at Rinaldo. Here we have a guy who suffered at the hands of Walter, having his family killed by his vampire-turned daughter, and in turn having to sadly kill her, his own flesh and blood. Then he tries to get revenge, but finds he is hopelessly outmatched. He ends up setting up shop right in the backyard of his family's murderer, his everyday life taunted by the fact that he can't get closure from Walter, whose home is within his sight. In fact, he ends up becoming a begrudging accomplice to Walter, helping send many adventurers to their death by aiding them in a battle with Walter that is merely set up as a game by Walter. Rinaldo has essentially made himself a captive of Walter's; yet even though he could walk away from this, he cannot free himself. And yet, even after seeing so many fail, and hiding his personal pain by his unwillingness to address his story with adventurers, he still holds enough hope to try to help Leon--all the while knowing he may be assisting him toward death. In the process, Leon gets him to open up, his cool exterior giving way to rage, and in turn Rinaldo's pain gives Leon additional motivation. And in the end, Rinaldo not only assists in the defeat of Walter, but also the makings of Dracula and the means by which to fight Dracula. It's a satisfying, very human character arc that also feels relevant to the Castlevania universe, timeline or not.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 18, 2010, 09:01:39 PM
Oh, I'd concede that Rinaldo is a more layered character than anyone in LoS. Though I find the whole "I think I'll charge people who want to take on Walter" odd as well as how he is able live on even subsistence when the place is locked in eternal darkness. But the rest of LoI's cast is rather flat. Well, I mean Leon goes through a little nice development from brash and arrogant to someone who realizes their duty, albeit still arrogant (I guess defeating a slew of monsters does cement Leon from thinking otherwise). But yeah.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Joachim on November 18, 2010, 09:28:32 PM
Arrogant? I couldn't even dream of calling him arrogant, he struck me as far more humble than that. Confident, occasionally, but never arrogant.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 18, 2010, 09:34:20 PM
Leon mutters, "What a bothersome." when he realizes he has to take down a slew of boss monsters before reaching Walter and comes to the castle with no weapons. Those would weigh out the whole name thing imo. He's just honest. The arrogance itself isn't a full-fledged trait, but a hint of spice to him. And before acquiring the Vampire Killer, he seemed just perfectly focused with saving Sara, though there were some hints of development as he learned about Rinaldo's own trials and tribulations. The change was finally brought out when the Vampire Killer was constructed.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Joachim on November 18, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
well, yeah; "What a bothersome" implying his distaste for Walter's game: if you were going to try and save your beloved, surely you would scoff if the kidnapper treated it as nothing but a game, throwing meaningless obstacles in your way purely for the sake of his enjoyment.

i-i don't see how that radiates arrogance at all
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: X on November 19, 2010, 02:21:59 AM
well, yeah; "What a bothersome" implying his distaste for Walter's game: if you were going to try and save your beloved, surely you would scoff if the kidnapper treated it as nothing but a game, throwing meaningless obstacles in your way purely for the sake of his enjoyment.

i-i don't see how that radiates arrogance at all

Agreed. Leon never shows any arrogence in the game's story what-so-ever. The only ones who're arrogent were the villains. And they all had their @$$' handed to them...on a silver platter. It should've included that fake dracula pu**y, Mathias  :P

-X
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Hanniballistic on November 19, 2010, 03:43:00 AM
Well, to his credit you need to consider EVERY LoS discussion is broken up by a "LoS isn't CV/it sucks/SotN's story was better!" rant every 2 posts, by the same 3-4 people. If you do happen to like LoS, I guess it can be quite annoying, expecially when some of the criticism is so far fetched.
I think subjectivity is to be respected, but if you go over 15 lines calling LoS' story crap and then you say you foundt LoI involving or its characters more "nuanced", you at least rise the suspicion of intellectual dishonesty.

But it's the same every time a new game comes out: the people who like it generally stop talking about it quite soon, while the "haters" go on forever, and eventually a fan will go on a witch hunt to fight them.... and we pop out the popcorn  ;D .

Yeah, you're pretty condescending too.  You are the only two I've noticed that go out of their way to show how smart you are and bring up insanely boring near-essay length critiques of other people's opinions.  You guys go overkill when there is no need to.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 19, 2010, 04:22:10 AM
I would assume that, "What a bothersome" in the context of, "What a bothersome that I have to fight these horrific beasts that have killed countless men" is a bit arrogant, reinforced at how casually he states how he'll just pick up any dead man's sword. It's not really a character flaw for Leon, like I said. Just more of a subtle, unexplored quirk.

Like how snarly and snooty Juste is toward Death and Wannabe-Dracula!
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 19, 2010, 05:50:16 AM
Valtiel, that was pretty rude. Gotta call it. Look, I hate to say it, but by and large (and to keep it simple), Gabriel was an emo, man-grunting oaf, and Zobek was the power-mad villain who twirls his mustache while he recites poetry. I'm sorry, but how much more stale/cliche can you get than saying the Devil is the dark mastermind at the 11th hour? ("Muhahahaha, you monkey, Belmont!") How is that clearly & significantly better than LoI to the extent that you can talk so sardonically of an opinion and place LoS on a high, untouchable pedestal? I didn't say LoI was fine literature by any means, but it kept me more engaged than some MacGuffin story about a fragmented, all-powerful mask (IE: Twilight Princess), and was more rooted in the mythology of Castlevania itself. LoI wasn't perfect, and I'm not a huge fan of IGA, but it was a more centralized, personal story when you think of the way it is slowly revealed how Leon and Rinaldo's lives intersect with the games of Walter and the conspiracy of Mathias.

....

OK...And as for the "nuanced" quote, look at Rinaldo. Here we have a guy who suffered at the hands of Walter, having his family killed by his vampire-turned daughter, and in turn having to sadly kill her, his own flesh and blood. Then he tries to get revenge, but finds he is hopelessly outmatched.
.....

He ends up setting up shop right in the backyard of his family's murderer, his everyday life taunted by the fact that he can't get closure from Walter, whose home is within his sight. In fact, he ends up becoming a begrudging accomplice to Walter, helping send many adventurers to their death by aiding them in a battle with Walter that is merely set up as a game by Walter. Rinaldo has essentially made himself a captive of Walter's; yet even though he could walk away from this, he cannot free himself. And yet, even after seeing so many fail, and hiding his personal pain by his unwillingness to address his story with adventurers, he still holds enough hope to try to help Leon--all the while knowing he may be assisting him toward death. In the process, Leon gets him to open up, his cool exterior giving way to rage, and in turn Rinaldo's pain gives Leon additional motivation. And in the end, Rinaldo not only assists in the defeat of Walter, but also the makings of Dracula and the means by which to fight Dracula. It's a satisfying, very human character arc that also feels relevant to the Castlevania universe, timeline or not.


Now, two things.

First, I wasn't specifically aiming at you with that comment. However, I can't agree on your analysis. I'm glad you appreciate Rinaldo's character (it's definitely the "best" character in LoI, and in fact, possibly the only one who actually gets some sort of backstory and personality), but once again... you speak of clichès for LoS and then type the text I bolded with a straight face?

I'm not stating LoS is better or sensibly better than that; but I cannot see how LoI is any better than LoS. In terms of the "quantity" of the exposition (both in plot and character development) both games are more or less equal, with focus on fleshing out enemies and NPCs more than the protagonist. But LoI plays a lot safer, sticking close to the clichès of the genre and the saga.
The things that bothered me the most about LoI (aside from the character design - it's the game that made me decide Kojima was unfit for Castlevania, and the only design I'd save is Mathias) is that it bored me. An origin story is often the second most exciting moment in a saga (the conclusion being the most exciting) because it's supposed to set up everything and play with hints and plot hooks for future games. LoI was incredibly plain, moving from A to B and throwing the Dracula bomb like it was an afterthought. A lot of people complain that LoS pulls in Dracula at the very end; was LoI any different? You spend most of the game dealing with characters that got basically nothing to do with CV, and then you get the entire saga set up in 3 minutes.

Now, LoS fundamentally does the same, but the difference is - LoS isn't an origins story. It's the prequel to an origins story. While LoI did set up the Belmonts, and Drac, and Death, and what's done is done and that fantasy is set in stone (dead, if you want), in the LoS continuum the origin story is still to be  written. How does Gabe become Drac? Why do the Belmonts hunt him? How does Death come in the equation? It's all there to be written. LoS merely introduced us to the characters.
And while everything in fantasy narration can be by now defined "clichèd" (literally), LoS' story definitely felt fresher to me, expecially in the CV context. Satan may be a clichè, but it's not a CV clichè. The masks plot is definitely better played out that the LoI stones, and with a decent amount of mystery left up for future games. And so on.

LoS' story is not groundbreaking in any way, but I'm strongly persuaded it is in context with CV; expecially with the recent trend of CV games who have been focusing on exploring, explaining (and justifying themselves on) tiny plot details without moving the story of one inch - Sorrows aside, sadly.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 19, 2010, 05:57:51 AM
Yeah, you're pretty condescending too.  You are the only two I've noticed that go out of their way to show how smart you are and bring up insanely boring near-essay length critiques of other people's opinions.  You guys go overkill when there is no need to.

I see. I'd point out that playing on the "home team" I would cut myself some slack for that - you can't walk into a Real Madrid club and yell "Mourinho is overrated!" and then complain that people were equally rude in disagreeing with you.

And for the length of the messages - I only write when I feel like I got something to say. Call it a reaction to the Internet "no u" rethorics. I could type "lol you're wrong" or post gifs like 75% of the web population, if you prefer. Point being, to me it's a form of respect. If you state you hate LoS and I quote you and say "You're wrong", I'll naturally assume that A) I've added nothing to the discussion and B) you positively don't give a damn about what a guy you never met thinks.
If I explain why I disagree with you, I give you the chance to explain your opinion and eventually persuade me of its worth.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: CristopherLee on November 19, 2010, 11:42:45 AM
I want to say something about IGA's characters:

They are ALL pretty stupid for me. No pun intended, seriously, but I'm surprise nobody is commenting it. I really want to "love" or "hate" that people. But i can't. Because the dialogue, the decisions they make, the actions they take... I'm agree with you that Rinaldo is quite interesting. But, Leon? He is like a rocker-teen without a school degree. I'm surprise he don't get killed in any medieval war before. The poor girl don't have any development. Walter is a bad James Bond villain without charisma. Mathias' "master plan" is quite childish (and based in some kind of "dungeons & dragons" artifact in which, frankly, I don't care) and NOBODY discovers it. Even Death Itself seems to be a brainless goon. I don't want to be disrespectful with you, guys, but this is the way I feel that story.

I will not talk about Gabriel and Zobek here. I like LoS story much more, but my "points" require a lot of development, so forget the new game exists. I'm only talking about fictional characters that, in my sincere opinion... are idiots.

And I'm sorry my retoric is not as great as Valtiel.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 19, 2010, 02:13:25 PM
I am not sure how Gabriel or Zobek are any better by the decisions and actions they make. :-[
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: RichterB on November 19, 2010, 09:29:42 PM
WARNING: I have written wayyyy too much here.
Valtiel, I think we have a general understanding of where we're both coming from on this now. (And, sorry, I couldn't help but feel you were aiming at me with the LoI quote and such). Regardless, I'm just going to clarify a few things based on what you said...


LoI was incredibly plain, moving from A to B and throwing the Dracula bomb like it was an afterthought. A lot of people complain that LoS pulls in Dracula at the very end; was LoI any different? You spend most of the game dealing with characters that got basically nothing to do with CV, and then you get the entire saga set up in 3 minutes.

For me, I think what was different was that it was weaving a story around the mythology of vampires from the start. Vampires weren't just an area/idea that you happened to pass through at the midpoint as in LoS. Yes, Dracula was only an end result in LoI, but characters like Walter and Joachim, and the mention of Rinaldo's turned daughter, were teases that led into Dracula, making that vampire theme pretty strong throughout. And while it was an A to B affair, it surrounded itself with the centralized motif of a castle with distinct link points to future Castlevanias, such as CV1 through the inclusion of Medusa (in head form).

The castle in LoS wasn't in the climax, neither were vampires. And even after all the trouble the player goes through, the Dracula reveal isn't necessarily a direct result of the game, as the timeline fast-forwards into modern times. With LoS, the globetrotting seemed more forced than the "Walter's game" structure of LoI, because Gabe was seemingly going to all sorts of random spots where characters would be introduced and quickly die/disappear without playing much of a role (IE: Baba). While I love Castlevania-style globetrotting (IV, III, Bloodlines), this felt like it went to too many places outside of Castlevania, such as Lord of the Rings and Rygar, just for the sake of doing so. I know they were trying to break ground, but some franchises, to keep a focus, have to set boundaries. (But even IGA has been known to go too far, so he doesn't get a pass, either. I think this is more pronounced, though, because of how Cox promised a throwback to pre-IGA games that would get to the heart of Castlevania, and outside of the "whip," this seemed to tiptoe around that and mostly do lip-service).

LoS isn't an origins story. It's the prequel to an origins story. How does Gabe become Drac? Why do the Belmonts hunt him? How does Death come in the equation? It's all there to be written. LoS merely introduced us to the characters.
And while everything in fantasy narration can be by now defined "clichèd" (literally), LoS' story definitely felt fresher to me, expecially in the CV context. Satan may be a clichè, but it's not a CV clichè. The masks plot is definitely better played out that the LoI stones, and with a decent amount of mystery left up for future games.

I'm not so sure it isn't mostly cut and dry. They show the Devil Mask behind Gabriel as he is in a fit of grief, and he just tried out the God Mask and saw that he could see/kiss Marie. The way they end with the Devil Mask in plain sight as the focus, I have to imagine he makes the same mistake as Zobek, but for different reasons, and puts on the Devil Mask. It corrupts him into Dracula. (Otherwise, maybe it has something to do with the leftover Laura character). If it plays off of anything in the story we were given, it doesn't seem as open ended as I've heard people say. And who is Death? The ending seemed to suggest that it is Zobek. He said he can grant Gabe what he wants if he helps him out. And at this point, I think Gabe wants death, to free him of his false, cursed life. And my biggest issue with the whole inclusion of the Devil is that it trumps Dracula. The series is no longer about "fill-in-the-blank" versus Dracula. I think that this whole direct battle with the Devil is too grand (and corny) a physical fight for the heroes. And you lose some personality and creative freedom in the mix if its just about the supreme evil. It seems ridiculous to me. (We're kind of going from spooky-yet-fun adventure to gloom-and-doom-End of the World battle). But maybe that's just me.

LoS' story is not groundbreaking in any way, but I'm strongly persuaded it is in context with CV; expecially with the recent trend of CV games who have been focusing on exploring, explaining (and justifying themselves on) tiny plot details without moving the story of one inch - Sorrows aside, sadly.

At the end of the day, as a matter of opinion, I just found LoI to connect on an emotional level better than LoS. Leon's personal journey, from skilled knight but naive vampire/monster-hunter concerned about and sacrificing for his own interests, to driven vampire-hunter determined to free the world from darkness to be more satisfying than Gabe's tragic journey that alternates between lovelorn rage and sad self-pity. Even if the latter is supposed to be a setup for a Dracula origins story, the whole thing seems superfluous in execution. And I'm not sure I'm liking the "I'm actually heroic" Dracula they're setting up. We'll have to wait and see, but I'm not too excited at this point.

Last thing I want to say about story: I actually don't need a super-deep or convoluted story for Castlevania. It just has to match the world and match the gameplay. My favorite Castlevania stories are probably CV64/LoD, LoI, and AoS. The latter two I liked because they took a different approach and had some nice twists (for their time) while still fitting the genre. But the first, CV64/LoD, is the one I really want to address in relation to my initial comment. The story basically fits hand and hand with the game as it develops, without being intrusive, and it just fits Castlevania so well. The way a character like Rosa, Vincent, Malice, Henry, Actrise, etc subtly make their impact as you run across them feel much more natural than most Castlevanias.

When I think about it, the best approach to a Castlevania restart would have been a Belmont's first journey to (and through) Dracula's Castle without any detailed exposition that tries to justify how Dracula came to be. The exposition could be done ala CV64 by the people you meet along the path to Dracula's Castle or in the castle itself. That's the real "back-to-basics" approach that might have gotten more people, ala how Street Fighter 4 was a huge success by gathering those people who left from III and Alpha and such by playing to the main idea of the series when it was popular (IE: SFII).

Well, that's all I've got. Just to clarify, I thought LoS was beautiful, enjoyable effort, but married itself too much to the market of modern action games to its detriment of potential and its setting/story felt disingenuous/misguided to the idea of restarting the series with the original series (say, 1-4) in mind as a starting point as Cox said the basic idea was. (Yes, they also said forget everything...but they also said that everything could be traced back to Castlevania and that 1 or 4 were the main reference points...and really, to forget everything kind of raises the question, "why do a Castlevania at all then?) I have written too much here and I digress.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: CristopherLee on November 19, 2010, 10:02:19 PM
Quote
When I think about it, the best approach to a Castlevania restart would have been a Belmont's first journey to (and through) Dracula's Castle without any detailed exposition that tries to justify how Dracula came to be. The exposition could be done ala CV64 by the people you meet along the path to Dracula's Castle or in the castle itself. That's the real "back-to-basics" approach that might have gotten more people...

I'm not agree with all your opinions but, actually, THIS is the same way i think. Forget all that prequels and origin stories for Drac's sake! I only want a bad-ass hero against a bad-ass villain!!

I liked LoS but it would be far better with less "Drama" and more "Old-school adventure".
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 19, 2010, 10:15:19 PM
I'm not agree with all your opinions but, actually, THIS is the same way i think. Forget all that prequels and origin stories for Drac's sake! I only want a bad-ass hero against a bad-ass villain!!

I liked LoS but it would be far better with less "Drama" and more "Old-school adventure".
Better for you, thanks.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: SIRHardle on November 20, 2010, 12:38:29 AM
¬¬'

LOI's story is better presented than LOS'. You don't need to create a mess of unexplained events, conflicting narrative and underdeveloped characters to create an "epic story that will only be told within many uncertain games". A game can be its own entity without resorting to such things (like POP trilogy and unlike the new POP game which was made with a new trilogy in mind but now AC is almost overshadowing it).

And Leon is much more of a solid protagonist than Gabriel. Gabriel is probably the most bland character I've encounter in a CV, yup even back when they couldn't talk they had more appeal... incidentally my favorite sound in LOS is jump up and hold square (gruuunt!) Argh LOS, WHY!?

What's sadder is that a lil bit of common sense and a lil less pride would've probably made LOS into a much solid first entry in this so called new era of CV.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Alutwon on November 20, 2010, 01:46:57 AM
And Leon is much more of a solid protagonist than Gabriel. Gabriel is probably the most bland character I've encounter in a CV, yup even back when they couldn't talk they had more appeal... incidentally my favorite sound in LOS is jump up and hold square (gruuunt!) Argh LOS, WHY!?

Gabriel seems like most of the other Belmont's to me. After all, pre Iga they were all silent protagonists who want to save there girlfriends. I thinks it's an interesting take on a Belmont, it's almost like let's see what happens if this one doesn't save the day completely. As far as blandest character for me it's either Soma or Shanoa. One is a saturday morning anime character (the good-natured teenager who has a special power and through the course of the anime, and with some help from his friends seeks to uncovers its mysteries) and the other acts like the old strong and silent heroes of CV but fails miserably (and she lacks a strut).
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 20, 2010, 02:22:59 AM
Quote
LOI's story is better presented than LOS'.
lol wut?
Fanboy reasoning, with as much sense as Inception in LSD.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 20, 2010, 02:58:12 AM
On the other hand, LoS's presentation caused the story to experience a lot of excess. Because of the necessary narration between stages, you find out that there is a lot of derailment regarding the story. Malphas is basically unrelated to the plot besides being a random barrier to Pan, Claudia is basically useless since the whole dark side foreshadowing of Gabriel was already shown in Pan's Forest and having her role just be there to agitate the Dark Knight for it and Gabriel to fight is clunky at best, Dorin was just for a upgrade that's not even needed to be used on Carmilla, Laura's own role makes for a rather plain and boring midpoint conflict because of how sudden her second cutscene is. Baba is just a fetch quest (keys) for a fetch quest (rose), albeit she serves the very minute role of dropping the line, THE KING OF ANGELS, but Cornell was more blunt and even said SATAN so it was redundant. At least in Baba's case, it actually linked to a foreshadowing that Satan was somewhat involved in the events of the game. I also love how Pan is essentially a plot device to move the game forward. LoS's events are much too pushed by "fate." Pan's blood just so happens to open the gate to the abyss. Olrox's blood just so happens to open the door to the keep.

It's a bit odd too because a lot of Gabriel's character development is mainly just mentioned in the narrative and not shown in his actions which are for the most part, relatively unchanged. Claudia's death really seems to have had little impact on how he acted. His "I've done questionable things" and "WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOR" are the only lines that he himself has to support that development while everyone else just calls him names and bloat how they and him are not so different. But you know, he just says things and never does anything different or even hesitates. You could say that this is just a hint at how strong his bloodlust is, but that just undermines the development then. You could link his supposed lust for bloodshed to how often he kills in gameplay, but that's completely undermined by how he's forced to in the gameplay as well as the story by good characters like Claudia and Pan. You can't really effectively do any sort of gray morality in a game that limits choice. It just feels like forced edginess. The story itself just makes it feel like unnecessary edginess.

You could say that LoS's presentation was lot more developed but it honestly just caused more problems than anything else. And it's even more disappointing because of all the missing details in its story. Zobek narrates the Dark Knight had been protecting Claudia for centuries but it never explains how Claudia has lived for centuries. Zobek then mentions Carmilla feeding on Frankenstein for centuries but that makes little sense either. The origin of the masks could have been elaborated on too since apparently, they hold a power greater than Satan's. It's interesting how they could have gotten into the possession of the Brotherhood founders.

I guess you could say LoI was better structured, or at least leaner. Succubus tied into Rinaldo's past and developed his character. Medusa gave hints toward Leon's proficiency. Joachim had a little foreshadowing with Matthias being a fog. Not the best way to go around doing it, but it was a lot less redundant than LoS. I feel that the running about is better justified by the vampire playing a little game in his castle rather than LoS's gotta go find those upgrades or get strung along by Pan's deus ex machinas. Not really a fan of having the storyline dictate when subweapons will appear. On the other hand, LoI's very disjointed because of how cutscenes are optional and how the areas are all available at once, limiting the chance at a more coherent cohesive narrative. On the bright side, it never really negatively affects the narrative since all those embellishments could be told in any order. LoI itself is just a plain inoffensive story though with only Rinaldo to spark it up depth-wise.


One thing that has been bugging me about LoS is that Zobek said that the village was slaughtered when Gabriel first goes to Wygol Village. There's hints beforehand that Zobek is lying and that's fine. But then after the whole, "Let's get Dorin killed for Holy Water" ruse, they meet a child villager who remarks only then that village is under attack. Gabriel does not question this lapse in Zobek's trustworthiness at all. Uh.

Also, I don't get why Gabriel had to kill Marie. I mean, Zobek could've killed Marie just fine. It would have not altered the plot much at all. At the very least, it gives reason for Claudia to be killed as a sort of mirroring to Gabriel's murder of Marie, but that's really not much of an improvement when it causes a logical lapse on the part of Marie. Gabriel killing Marie just adds complications of why she was such a jerk to not tell him that he killed her. Instead, she strings him along a plot that threatens to bring all power to Zobek- actually Satan. Both her and Pan's motives are rather shaky atm, but I guess the sequel would clear that up. Can't wait for the sequel to the prequel to the origin story!
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Nagumo on November 20, 2010, 08:11:01 AM
The dubble twist of who the real antagonist was also very unneccessary and further emphasised how clunky the writing was in some places.

One other thing that has been bothering me is that the game relies too much on plot convencience like Thernz pointed out. You have all   these situations, like a door that needs to be opened with Brauner's blood, that have no impact on the plot at all, while one the most vital scenes in the entire game, Marie's murder, was a staged event, even though it would have so much better if in only that instance there was a matter of "destiny" involved, and this made the story just come off as extra dumb, lol.                       
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: CristopherLee on November 20, 2010, 08:45:40 AM
Quote
I guess you could say LoI was better structured, or at least leaner. Succubus tied into Rinaldo's past and developed his character. Medusa gave hints toward Leon's proficiency. Joachim had a little foreshadowing with Matthias being a fog. Not the best way to go around doing it, but it was a lot less redundant than LoS.

Well, I can't be more disagree. It is so obvious for me than LoS story is BY FAR superior than "that other game" that I really don't understand why I must explain it...

About the characters: Zobek have charisma. Walter have none. Both are the "second msot improtant villain" of its game. One of them both an ally and the msot deadly enemie, while the other one is of the worst bad guys ever seen on a videogame. Even if the "plot twist" and the end was easy to foretell it have no possible comparison with the LAME LoI ending.

About the video: forget the graphics. I'm talking about the quality of the shots and editing. LoI looks cheap. It is not "metal gear solid", folks... every scene looks like if it was improvised.

About the dialogue: It is redundant. Yes, much more than the dialogue in LoS. Leon is ALWAYS making stupid questions. Most than a half of his dialogue is an stupid question. And the one-liners are not very impressive. Actually, "I will kill you AND the night!" sounds pretty ridiculous.

Quote
And Leon is much more of a solid protagonist than Gabriel. Gabriel is probably the most bland character I've encounter in a CV, yup even back when they couldn't talk they had more appeal...

Are you kidding me? Gabriel is the most intriguing Castlevania character ever. He have strong motivations, a mysterious origin, determination, incredible fighting skill not based on "anime" super-powers, some revealing introspection moments and a tragic destiny.

And about the ending: when an entire saga of vampire killers are descendants of the Original Evil, the whole quest is about redemption. Generation after generation the Belmonts are doomed to fight Dracula, triying to purge his own blood. THAT'S interesting. Now, with LoI... a very stupid guy is cheated by his best friend. It is a personal quest, not a generational drama. The sons of the sons of the very stupid guy have, actually, NO REASON to fight Dracula.

In my opinion the best CV games are, in that order:

-Super Castlevania IV
-Rondo of Blood
-Lords of shadow

I always prefer plain pulp adventure over extremely dramatic storylines. But Lords of Shadows is the only Castlevania Game at this point that really have something to tale.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 20, 2010, 02:16:47 PM
The problem with LoS is that some people finally realised how bad Cv writing was before, not that now it's Citizen kane but it's on the right track.
We knew Cv was cheesy, we knew it and didn't want to hide, we accepted it, I did, I wanted a more serious approach but I was FINE with it because the games were good and the bstory was simple and intriguing enough for fans to create a kinda deeper meta-story, that's what we did for years, wondering how the Polktergeist King came related with Trevor or imagining the transformation of Mathias even mourning the tragic unseen death of Richter and more, actually CV story is much much simpler than how we think it is, we just connect things to not making it too "unloose", believe when I say, IGA doesn't think "Oh this Juste Belmont, what a tragic character, let's make his psychologic sorrow to be visible in the dialogue", no he doesn't but we fans like to think "Just is a troubled man because he charges the burden of being the grandson of the greatest hunter and wants to be proven worthy of his name"... a good approach that makes the global storyline better? oh yes, was that the original intention, oh no. But it's GOOD and that's what makes CV story and fans especial, we care  about the story, we care about how this game has some nodes to the last ones, and they DO HAVE THEM but it's a kinda spiritual connection that the pure Castlevania essence makes it grow natually, and that's why I love the series.

LoS actually has real storytelling, with various sub-plots all along (Necromantic Wars, Baba vs Malphas //epic//, Satan vs God and so on) and of course some unanswered questions that a lot of people call "Bad writing"... have you ever played Assassins Creed? It's actually the best writing this gen, and my God it has unanswered questions, frustrating ones even, but it's not because bad writing, it's because of keeping the intrigue. You should, you know, play more nowadays? the days of "go to the castle and rescue the princess" are gone as hell; LoS makes the old series to look very very silly storytelling wise, and it's worse when you think that LoS is actually somewhat FLAWED at storytelling (Oh yeah, gabriel is such a demon when he cries for Pan...) but it tries and somehow succeds in delivering emotions (old CV NEVER tried that concept)I got shivers when Marie dissapeared and Gabriel just stood there, crying, dissapointed... hard stuff.
We'll have to wait, LoS will continue and hopefully they will tune those bad parts and make future storytelling masterfully, at least, there's a place to begin with, at least, LoS fundations are good enough.
And for the old series... it could become better in narrative or not, I don't care.. I don't play those games for an emotional experience, they are just AWESOME by how they are; the story, will be our work, as always ;)
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 20, 2010, 02:23:57 PM
I am not sure how Zobek has more charisma than Walter besides how he's voiced by Patrick Stewart. His dialogue offers no interesting lines. If anything near the end, his dialogue turns ludicrously hammy. His motivation is simple and cliche and his actions hold far too much foreshadowing to be interesting. Walter has a rather less bland motivation, is built up by other characters, and is clear and cut without convolution. He's a simply done character but that's better than the convoluted trickery tricked Zobek does.

I don't see how Leon asking questions is redundant when each question is different beyond the action of asking. The exposition in LoI is handled pretty badly in that regard but it isn't redundant in actual content. All of the questions are different and build on details. I mean, I don't see why he wouldn't ask when the enemies are saying cryptic things. It's better than LoS skipping out on details or ignoring things like when Zobek tells Gabriel that the village was slaughtered and when Gabriel is shown proof otherwise, he doesn't even question it. The main problem is LoS is that it has most of the same flaws of the older stories but then adds a whole slew of others in regards of redundancy, bloat, and lack of detail.

Gabriel's motivations are just as strong as Leon's. Gabriel wants revenge. Leon wants to save his beloved. There's really no depth to either. We don't even know Leon's origin compared to Gabriel's and Gabriel's fighting style is a lot more unrealistic and exaggerated than Leon's. I don't get how Leon's is any more anime than his. The only really anime moves are when Leon stupidly does his ground whip combos in the air. Those were just dumb.

About your redemption thing, the whole point of LoI was to set up that the descendants of Leon Belmont are tasked with defeating Dracula because Leon had unwillingly played a part in his creation. You could say that it's also a quest of redemption.

also just because,
In my opinion the best CV games are, in that order:

-Super Castlevania IV
-Castlevania I
-Symphony of the Night

@Ahasverus
The writing was always bad, and I'm not trying to dispute that. But the writing hasn't improved, it just loaded itself onto more flaws which is so jarring because of the stronger focus and improved presentation. I don't want a stronger focus on story when the stories are still bad. It's a stepping stone in the wrong direction. The storytelling itself is rather detrimental in regards to the gameplay.
And why care about sub-plots that don't add to the plot. Baba vs Malphas was absolutely useless because both characters were just ways for the game to stretch itself without adding to the plot. The sub-plot itself has no bearing on the game at all. None of the ones who listed are really sub-plots either since they have absolutely no development in the story besides Satan getting a chance of new power in Satan vs God. They are all just background fluff.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 20, 2010, 02:39:46 PM
Quote
And why care about sub-plots that don't add to the plot. Baba vs Malphas was absolutely useless because both characters were just ways for the game to stretch itself without adding to the plot. The sub-plot itself has no bearing on the game at all. None of the ones who listed are really sub-plots either since they have absolutely no development in the story besides Satan getting a chance of new power in Satan vs God. They are all just background fluff.
By now man, by now, wait and see ;) - I hope -

Anyway, the story is only told in cutscenes, you always can play the game skkiping them and it becomes just like an OldVania, nice huh?
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: crisis on November 20, 2010, 04:07:07 PM
so uh


WHY didn't Satan have a badass 2nd form?! MercurySteam really dropped the ball on that one -_-
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 20, 2010, 04:17:35 PM
That would've been cool. Maybe the use of one form was to emphasize how no-frills Satan was. This is also cemented by his design of just being a nude man. Simple, yet imposing with his long and lush black hair and mysterious fog. Well, I think that was their intent anyway. A sort of minimalism to enforce strength rather than exaggerate like when how Cornell and Carmilla transformed.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Kingshango on November 20, 2010, 04:38:38 PM
I guess Mercurysteam didn't want to use the tired old ugly devil horned creature with a huge third leg design, so they went with the nude fallen angel look instead.

Though it would have been nice if MS gave Satan the ugly devil horned creature design as a second form.(minus the huge third leg)
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: SIRHardle on November 20, 2010, 05:46:52 PM
Ok. I’ll tell you guys why LOI has an, overall, more coherent plot exposition. I may have expressed myself badly with the term presentation as people tend to associate that with visual appeal more so. All it takes is basically follow the story of LOI itself and check how concise it is compared to what LOS presents to the player. You can follow the story here: Castlevania : LoI Story "Prologue" 1/7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rq4UtXotP4#)

Leon and Mathias are masters on what they do best. Mathias’ learned nature is his gift as well as Leon’s combat prowess and leadership.  Both were undefeated over the past of the crusades and after Mathias’ return to find his wife dead and gets bedridden. Leon’s maintains his company undefeated even after being alone.Then Leon’s land gets attacked by the mysterious creatures and the church denies. Leon then abandons his title, becomes a commoner, and doesn’t even take his weapon as that belonged to his company. He opts to go alone and unarmed with hopes to scavenger weapons on site (Snake style). That already tells us so much about his character.

He mets Rinaldo (who’s also properly presented but someone already mentioned that) and then discovers that he’s on a game made by a bored vampire who likes to toy with humans, and Leon was unfortunate enough to be selected as the new player. Walter may be stale but he has motivation too, he’s basically a bored gambler with too much money, that’s such a good characteristic to play with rather than evil just cuz the plot wants too. It’s different and it’s understandable. Leon holds nothing special to Walter, if it weren’t him it would be anyone else. And in the end Walter is just another pawn, not a mastermind/pawn.

Leon trusts Rinaldo after hearing his motivation, and gives his respect after hearing his connection with Mathias. We learn about Mathias connection with occult arts over the course of the game. And also about the whip’s story and significance, the Ebony and Crismon stone’s are properly introduced as possible plot devices and Rinaldo’s tragic past which adds to Leon’s motivation. From this moment he knows it’s about more than just him.
Lines like “Rinaldo you’ve helped me so much, the least I could do is listen to your story and support  you in your suffering.” Do a lot to tell the player what kind of man is Leon and how ready he might be to do what he has to do later. Sarah’s sacrifice is much more worthwhile to the plot, it changes Leon, it hurts Leon and he’s aware of why he did it.

Then we got the ending, were everything comes together, Mathias presence in the game is foreshadowed properly at least 4 times in the narrative. He shows up with his own motivation, his plan finished and done. Leon refuses his proposal which for Mathias comes as a shock for he thought Leon would understand after such a long invincible friendship. Mathias moves on to live a new life as a vampire and an enemy of God.
This is getting too big and I’ll conclude it later. 

lol wut?
Fanboy reasoning, with as much sense as Inception in LSD.
lol wut?
I don't remember the Dungeon being like this... o_O
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on November 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
Hey SIRHardle.
A late welcome to the Forums.

Please do not take one person's opinion of the forum populace as the truth, but rather as a statement with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Munchy on November 20, 2010, 08:54:41 PM
What I'm curious to have explained is how the Vampire Killer goes from being a regular magic whip to a chain magic whip.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Ahasverus on November 20, 2010, 08:56:55 PM
What I'm curious to have explained is how the Vampire Killer goes from being a regular magic whip to a chain magic whip.
It seems that the important think of the VK is the "hang" (The cross) and not the chain itself, Rinaldo created various chains and add-ons however the cross's origins are mysterious and untraceable.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: thernz on November 20, 2010, 09:34:47 PM
Wasn't the Combat Cross always made with chain though and not regular/leather? I think he's referring to the whip of the original canon. I don't think it's really been addressed, it seems to just change for aesthetic. It works better as a chain in 2D because of how it's formed in segmented parts, at least when it can it be dangled and etc, then in the 3D games, it's leather. I don't think there's really a uniform appearance for it in the series. It just jumps around randomly back and forth.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: X on November 20, 2010, 10:34:13 PM
What I'm curious to have explained is how the Vampire Killer goes from being a regular magic whip to a chain magic whip.


This is more of those classic videogame gimmicks rather then an actual story explaination for the whip tranformation IMO. Many other games out there have these little quirks to help define them in some form or another.

-X
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Nagumo on November 21, 2010, 08:45:55 AM
What I'm curious to have explained is how the Vampire Killer goes from being a regular magic whip to a chain magic whip.

You could always imagine that the different appearances are different forms that the whip takes as it grows stronger for whatever reason (i. e power-ups). Richter and Julius are probably so strong, the whip is always in its most powerful form when they use it.

because they have huge amounts of belmont warlord chromosomes, lol 
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Valtiel on November 21, 2010, 09:20:08 AM
You could always imagine that the different appearances are different forms that the whip takes as it grows stronger for whatever reason (i. e power-ups). Richter and Julius are probably so strong, the whip is always in its most powerful form when they use it.

because they have huge amounts of belmont warlord chromosomes, lol 

Or simply the weapon could shape itself in the form more fitting for the wielder.

Most Belmont characters are lean, agile fighters, facing off colossal monsters of incredible strength. A whip is a weapon that isn't really based on physical strength (it's much less strenght reliant than a sword, for example) and allow you to hit the enemy for distance.

"Stronger" Belmonts (Simon, Gabriel etc) used the heavier flail form.

Say that one day Alucard can for some bs reason wield the VK... it could become a sword. Heck, originally the idea of the Holy Cross was exactly that: the hilt was the weapon, and the "chain" could stay a whip, or become a sword, or a spear etc.
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Dominus on November 21, 2010, 11:57:05 AM

Though it would have been nice if MS gave Satan the ugly devil horned creature design as a second form.(minus the huge third leg)

I have readed that in many place and I still dont have any idea from where it comes from
Title: Re: My Return and another LoS topic.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on November 21, 2010, 01:01:57 PM
He has that look in Dante's Inferno.  It would've been kinda ripoff-ish.