Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: crisis on March 01, 2014, 12:56:57 AM
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i remember back in the day fans would speculate how Eric from bloodlines was supposedly descended from alucard, perhaps from the offspring of alucard and Maria
but thats prolly not true at all (just like alucard+sonia). however what we do know is that Eric wields the "Alucard Spiear" (commonly mistranslated as "Alcarde Spear") it is said that alucard created it to "compliment the power of the Vampire Killer" but uhm what does this mean exactly?
and why give it to Eric? and why did he suddenly decide to create it in the first place? when exactly did he create it? why werent the Lecardes part of the Battle of 1999?
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I though that effectively Eric was descendant of the relation Alucard-Maria. I though that its was official.
I remember that the spear was created in the time that the Vampire Killer were off scene, to protect humanity, or something like that. In Portrait of Ruin says more about all this, isn´t? I played the game years ago, so I need to play it again to remember tha story... or read it in the Wikia :P
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I remember that the spear was created in the time that the Vampire Killer were off scene, to protect humanity, or something like that. In Portrait of Ruin says more about all this, isn´t?
It's somewhat mentioned in PoR, but like a lot of IGA's other game stories it's very ambiguous and does very little to shed light on the connection. They had a chance to explain the connection, but to no avail it never happened.
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It's somewhat mentioned in PoR, but like a lot of IGA's other game stories it's very ambiguous and does very little to shed light on the connection. They had a chance to explain the connection, but to no avail it never happened.
I suppose it was meant to be that way. "Think of it as you want it to be" type of stuff that is common in mystery Japanese movies.
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In POR it's revealed that the Lecardes via their bloodline are the only ones who are needed to open the dimension by which the Morris clan are able to do battle with the VK's memory. The Morris' must undergo this and defeat the memory (in the form of the previous Belmont who wielded the VK) in order to wield it themselves.
Additionally since the Morris clan are not pure blood descendants of the Belmont line, wielding the VK causes them to die eventually. This happened to John Morris at some point after bloodlines. So it seems only the true lineage of the Belmonts (Leon> Trevor>>>>>> Richter> Julius) are able to use the VK without causing their eventual demise.
I didn't know Eric was a descendant of Alucard/ Maria.. I always thought he was maybe inspired by Amon from Amon Saga since Alucard, or at least the fact he is a dhampire was probably inspired somewhat by Vampire Hunter D (which had the same creator)
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I'm curious about the original intent of the Alucard Spear back when Bloodlines first came out. It's a pretty suprising bit of continuity back then, since Alucard was a bit of a goofball before SotN. Judgment retconned the Lecardes into being Belmont relatives, so it's possible there was orginally a connenction.
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You know something I dislike strongly? Those "Belmonts relatives". Ugh. Everyone is a Belmont but it isn't. I hate them all (and it doesn't make really sense as if, for example, Quincy and John had Belmont blood the whip wouldn't have killed them. And if we go for the "only pure Belmonts aren't killed" we're going for some kind of sexist thing were the only true Belmonts are descendant of male Belmonts only). I'd love if the lecardes were Alucard's offspring and only Alucard's (is Maria a Belmont relative too?)
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(is Maria a Belmont relative too?)
Yeah. In the SNES Dracula X she's Annette's sister, whereas in Rondo she's just a long-lost Belmont relative, hence her powers. I hope I have that right.
As for the Belmont relatives, they had to insert a bit of drama to make PoR a bit more interesting, I guess, in the character development department in regards to Johanthan. Not that it was done entirely well, since his whole inferiority complex became really grating really fast. But it makes sense to a certain degree as to why they wanted to show why not just anybody could pick up the whip and use it, even if they were part Belmont.
And if we go for the "only pure Belmonts aren't killed" we're going for some kind of sexist thing were the only true Belmonts are descendant of male Belmonts only).
I really hope this is just satire on your part, because you'll need like size XXXL stretch pants to fit that stretch of an argument for hidden sexism.
I'm curious about the original intent of the Alucard Spear back when Bloodlines first came out. It's a pretty suprising bit of continuity back then, since Alucard was a bit of a goofball before SotN. Judgment retconned the Lecardes into being Belmont relatives, so it's possible there was orginally a connenction.
Yeah, I really wished it was kept that Eric was a descendent of Alucard. Even PoR hinted towards this, with that promo art of Eric with Alucard's silhouette in the background.
Also good lord was Eric hateable in Judgment. How do you go from suave Spaniard in Bloodlines to Undead Col. Trautman in PoR to whiny prepubescent is anybody's guess.
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Yeah. In the SNES Dracula X she's Annette's sister, whereas in Rondo she's just a long-lost Belmont relative, hence her powers. I hope I have that right.
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I really hope this is just satire on your part, because you'll need like size XXXL stretch pants to fit that stretch of an argument for hidden sexism.
Well going by the fact that post Trevor Belmonts would have be worth nothing without Sypah's genes yeah it's pretty sexist (not in the moden sense, of course, but in the traditional one) that the male Belmont genes grant power and the female Belmont genes carry weakness to the Vampire Killer. Wich, you know, was bonded with female blood. Yeah.
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It's still possible for the Lecardes to be both descendants of Alucard and the Belmonts if the popular notion of him hooking up with Maria was canon, since she is also a Belmont relative as was already pointed out. They kind off pushed their relationship in the radio drama, so who knows. Pretty convoluted, but that's Castlevania for you.
Also, I don't want to open a can of worms, but what actually is the basis for this superior/inferior gene business? Sounds like something Thomas Belmont would come up with.
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Also, I don't want to open a can of worms, but what actually is the basis for this superior/inferior gene business? Sounds like something Thomas Belmont would come up with.
Because the Morrises while having Belmont blood (uneccessary connection) they have it by the female line (as they don't have the surname "Belmont") and they are killed by the use of the Vampire Killer. Considering they have the exact amount of genetic material than a person with the surname Belmont of their time, the basis for calling one "A true Belmont" is the surname which is gotten by having a father Belmont who has a father Belmont and so on, making only the male Belmont line to be worthy.
Unless "true Belmont" includes the child of two Belmonts but Incest was never hinted :P
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Because the Morrises while having Belmont blood (uneccessary connection) they have it by the female line (as they don't have the surname "Belmont") and they are killed by the use of the Vampire Killer. Considering they have the exact amount of genetic material than a person with the surname Belmont of their time, the basis for calling one "A true Belmont" is the surname which is gotten by having a father Belmont who has a father Belmont and so on, making only the male Belmont line to be worthy.
Unless "true Belmont" includes the child of two Belmonts but Incest was never hinted :P
I think it's just a lack of foresight on IGA's part. That, or incest.
I mean, it's the same deal with Fire Emblem where they have these "I'm a descendant of *insert super powerful ancient warrior here*" as if that makes them special while ignoring the fact that unless everyone in that family has had one child for the last 1000 years, then there's hundreds if not thousands of people descended from that same person.
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IGA was the one whom first implied that only a direct male descendant of the main Belmont family could use the Vampirekiller. It's a very weak augment even for story purposes, and in my mind does not hold up in any sort of way, realistically or otherwise. I much rather prefer the Super Castlevania IV explanation; The Vampierkiller whip is passed down from the parent to the eldest child of the main family line. This explanation avoids the sexism that IGA invoked later on. Whether it was or was not intentional is very debatable all around. And also it was only introduced in PoR that unless you are a direct descendant of the main family then the whip will not kill you. That was never the case in Bloodlines. In fact John Morris from Bloodlines was one of the more powerful Belmont descendants considering how powerful his whip got along with his item crashes.
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But what is a direct descendant? That's the problem, there is no such thing as a direct descendant, every descendant, first, second, female born etc have the same genes. The first born explanation is better, but that doesn't explain the whole "Vampire killer kills the non Belmonts" thing. I mean, it's ok if it hurts people with zero Belmont blood, but the Morrises supposedly have and it shouldn't hurt them.
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You know something I dislike strongly? Those "Belmonts relatives". Ugh. Everyone is a Belmont but it isn't. I hate them all (and it doesn't make really sense as if, for example, Quincy and John had Belmont blood the whip wouldn't have killed them. And if we go for the "only pure Belmonts aren't killed" we're going for some kind of sexist thing were the only true Belmonts are descendant of male Belmonts only). I'd love if the lecardes were Alucard's offspring and only Alucard's (is Maria a Belmont relative too?)
Seeing that the Vampire Killer whip is atune to only those baring the Belmont name(and those who are relative still cannot while it without penalty), it makes it a sort of magical curse, and sad to say, magic and curse ARE sexist. The Bible, death to the first born son... why not the first born daughter? That's one sexist curse if I do say so myself!
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I don't think female Belmonts carry weak genes more than their suitors carry weak genes. Then again, the fact that you need to magically awaken the VK proves that it has nothing to do with science and everything to do with magic(hence curse).
Though, to play devil's advocate, saying that magic is sexist isn't the only truth. Science be as well. Talking about gene, I remember seeing this special on television regarding a certain hereditary disease that is passed on by women to their children, but only affects males(sons). The males don't pass it on to THEIR children, but the daughters do. And so on, and so on. Damn, nature, you're SEXIST!!
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Read my post
Because the Morrises while having Belmont blood (uneccessary connection) they have it by the female line (as they don't have the surname "Belmont") and they are killed by the use of the Vampire Killer. Considering they have the exact amount of genetic material than a person with the surname Belmont of their time, the basis for calling one "A true Belmont" is the surname which is gotten by having a father Belmont who has a father Belmont and so on, making only the male Belmont line to be worthy.
Unless "true Belmont" includes the child of two Belmonts but Incest was never hinted :P
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Read my post
Ah, but you are only usuing the science of genetics as your reasoning, when it's apparent that this is more based on magic/curse. The VK isn't partial to the laws of science and the intricacy of genetics. It's a relic of magic. All it probably knows is "direct family line". It doesn't care much for offshoots or those who stray from it generations down the line. It isn't fair, but I'm not looking for CV to be the most PC of gaming series.
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I like how this discussion has now swerved to BELMONT WARLORD CHROMOSOMES. CVIII's American manual should've been canon, it would have averted these types of discussions.
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Because the Morrises while having Belmont blood (uneccessary connection) they have it by the female line (as they don't have the surname "Belmont") and they are killed by the use of the Vampire Killer. Considering they have the exact amount of genetic material than a person with the surname Belmont of their time, the basis for calling one "A true Belmont" is the surname which is gotten by having a father Belmont who has a father Belmont and so on, making only the male Belmont line to be worthy.
Unless "true Belmont" includes the child of two Belmonts but Incest was never hinted :P
Yup, but that's only the case in the specific hereditary system you mentioned. We don't know exactly how it works so we can't draw a conclusion based on that. Then again, I could totally imagine what you're saying is what IGA has in mind, as stupid as it may be. Like X mentioned, I prefer the "eldest child" hereditary system.
But what is a direct descendant? That's the problem, there is no such thing as a direct descendant, every descendant, first, second, female born etc have the same genes. The first born explanation is better, but that doesn't explain the whole "Vampire killer kills the non Belmonts" thing. I mean, it's ok if it hurts people with zero Belmont blood, but the Morrises supposedly have and it shouldn't hurt them.
I suppose only the direct descendants of the previous wielder of the whip are able to wield it. Perhaps when the previous owner has two children, and he passes the whip to the child who is the successor, only his descendants are able to wield it. Though it probably would still be possible for the successor to pass on the whip to a sibling. However, that would mean the descendants of that person would no longer be able to wield it. Does that make sense?
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I suppose only the direct descendants of the previous wielder of the whip are able to wield it. Perhaps when the previous owner has two children, and he passes the whip to the child who is the successor, only his descendants are able to wield it. Though it probably would still be possible for the successor to pass on the whip to a sibling. However, that would mean the descendants of that person whould no longer be able to wield it. Does that make sense?
Crisis averted.
Now if we could see that in the games that would be great, passing ceremony and all.
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I suppose only the direct descendants of the previous wielder of the whip are able to wield it. Perhaps when the previous owner has two children, and he passes the whip to the child who is the successor, only his descendants are able to wield it. Though it probably would still be possible for the successor to pass on the whip to a sibling. However, that would mean the descendants of that person whould no longer be able to wield it. Does that make sense?
It works until return to Julius Belmont. He's nobody's direct successor, so it comes back to last names.
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It works until return to Julius Belmont. He's nobody's direct successor, so it comes back to last names.
IGA gonna IGA is the default response in these kind of threads and it's sad. You could argue that Julius is the elected heir of the VK by Johnattan and he already unlocked it at its full power, however.
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Crisis averted.
Now if we could see that in the games that would be great, passing ceremony and all.
This is EXACTLY what I've been wanting to see in a CV series. It's one of the reasons I wrote my story regarding the brothers and how one of them being chosen changes their relationship forever. See, there are good ideas for future CV games that don't revolve around "Dracula rises again, go out and kill him!". You CAN explore some cool things with characters that don't tread the whole plot twist puppet thing.
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This is EXACTLY what I've been wanting to see in a CV series. It's one of the reasons I wrote my story regarding the brothers and how one of them being chosen changes their relationship forever. See, there are good ideas for future CV games that don't revolve around "Dracula rises again, go out and kill him!". You CAN explore some cool things with characters that don't tread the whole plot twist puppet thing.
And then I learned that Circle of the Moon wasn't canon. :'(
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Well, you would have to assume during that 200 year period that either only one child was born during a generation (still a bit of a stretch), or all the other branches of Richter descendants died out. We don't know what the Belmonts were up to, so it's hard to determine,
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Well, you would have to assume during that 200 year period that either only one child was born during a generation (still a bit of a stretch), or all the other branches of Richter descendants died out. We don't know what the Belmonts were up to, so it's hard to determine,
The easiest way to go about it would be to retcon PoR. :P
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Yup, Bloodlines should just have been gaiden. They have been trying to justify its inclusion since 2006 and it's still unclear.
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You dudes do realize that the Vampire Killer IS a girl, right?
Might explain why it hates women (sexism thing) or why it cares only for "true Belmonts" xD
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The easiest way to go about it would be to retcon PoR. :P
never realized how much por fucked with everything. especially bloodlines.
kind of makes my blood(lines) boil hpw por shits over bloodlines.
retconning it would work wonders.
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or all the other branches of Richter descendants died out.
Yeah but the sideplot of OoE was finding his descendants. The old lady seemed to be his daughter, since she reminisced about fighting monsters with her father, and Shanoa almost yelled out in surprise that the lady was a true blue Belmont.
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Yeah but the sideplot of OoE was finding his descendants. The old lady seemed to be his daughter, since she reminisced about fighting monsters with her father, and Shanoa almost yelled out in surprise that the lady was a true blue Belmont.
YEAH
WELL
I TRIED
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I never liked how you had the VK at the start, but it's power was restricted. I guess it's the only way they could think for Jonathan to have it and not be overpowered. Plus, AoS was already out and they had to explain how Julius had the Belmont surname when Jon (from Bloodlines) didn't. By saying that the Morris and Lecarde families are "side families" somewhat related to the Belmonts and that the main Belmonts couldn't tough the whip until 1999, sort of explains everything.
It would've been better to just say that Bloodlines was on an alternate timeline like CV64 and LoD and then making games with non-Belmont heroes only for the period between years 1797 (SotN) and 1999 (DCW). Hell, they could've used Alucard a few times or perhaps decendants of Grant or even Belnades witches.
As for Alucard's connection to the Lecarde family, it's possible when the whip was given to the Morris family and the method of unlocking its true power was given to the Lecarde family, Alucard created the spear and gave to the Lecarde's so that they could fight along side the Morris's in battle only unlocking the whip's full potential in times of great need.
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TL;DR, PoR ruined everything to do with the Belmonts and their conenction to the whip.
In Bloodlines, John uses it just fine. he's a Belmont relative, he gets the whip, no fuss or muss about it. Eric Lecarde gets a fancy spear from Alucard, so that Belmonts dont have to go it alone and have some backup.
PoR: ONLY DIRECT BELMONTS CAN USE THE WHIP! EVERYONE ELSE DIES! OH AND YOU CANT USE ITS FULL POWER, YOU HAVE TO DEFEAT RICHTER TO USE IT SO WE CAN SHOEHORN IN A RICHTER BOSSFIGHT WITH RONDO SPRITES, OH AND ONLY ERIC LECARDE AND HIS FAMILY CAN MAKE THAT BOSS FIGHT HAPPEN SO WE HAVE A PLOT EXCUSE FOR DESU TWINS
IGA gon' IGA
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I never liked how you had the VK at the start, but it's power was restricted.
They missed an opportunity to have the unpowered vampire killer be the normal leather whip, whereas it becomes the usual chain whip after you fight the whip's memory.
Though on the other hand I'll take those CVII whips any day. I bonnered stupidly when I realized you they put all the whips from CVII in the game, plus the Stellar Sword and Alucard Spear.
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Yeah but the sideplot of OoE was finding his descendants. The old lady seemed to be his daughter, since she reminisced about fighting monsters with her father, and Shanoa almost yelled out in surprise that the lady was a true blue Belmont.
Daniela had memories of fighting Monsters with her grandfather if I remember correctly. Unless the Japanese version it said "father"
With 13 direct bloodlines, I don't see the emergence of Julius unreasonable.
Speculation on my behalf but maybe the longer the VK is not used for by the bloodline, the stronger it becomes. It may have something to do with the Belmonts catching on that Dracula was going to keep resurrecting, so they concocted a plan to destroy him once and for all.
PoR: ONLY DIRECT BELMONTS CAN USE THE WHIP! EVERYONE ELSE DIES! OH AND YOU CANT USE ITS FULL POWER, YOU HAVE TO DEFEAT RICHTER TO USE IT SO WE CAN SHOEHORN IN A RICHTER BOSSFIGHT WITH RONDO SPRITES, OH AND ONLY ERIC LECARDE AND HIS FAMILY CAN MAKE THAT BOSS FIGHT HAPPEN SO WE HAVE A PLOT EXCUSE FOR DESU TWINS
I loved that boss fight
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It would've been better to just say that Bloodlines was on an alternate timeline like CV64 and LoD and then making games with non-Belmont heroes only for the period between years 1797 (SotN) and 1999 (DCW). Hell, they could've used Alucard a few times or perhaps decendants of Grant or even Belnades witches.
I kinda like the idea someone brought up in the other thread. SotN's different endings lead to a split in the timeline. Richter suriving leads to the Belmonts being a prominent force up to 1999. Richter dies, the Belmont line ends with him and the Morris clan have to step up to take their place.
And yes, PoR did more harm than it did good. In itself, what it brought to the series, it was basically worthless.
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Crisis averted.
Now if we could see that in the games that would be great, passing ceremony and all.
I would love a game with a passing-of-the-torch theme, maybe between Juste and Richter. Sorta like Belmont's Revenge but minus the mind control.
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Maybe John Morris had a bossfight with Richter before the events of Bloodlines, and we just never saw it in game........
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Maybe John Morris had a bossfight with Richter before the events of Bloodlines, and we just never saw it in game........
He didn't because he died.
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Yeah but the sideplot of OoE was finding his descendants. The old lady seemed to be his daughter, since she reminisced about fighting monsters with her father, and Shanoa almost yelled out in surprise that the lady was a true blue Belmont.
Really? That's actually pretty cool. I forgot about this.
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I kinda like the idea someone brought up in the other thread. SotN's different endings lead to a split in the timeline. Richter suriving leads to the Belmonts being a prominent force up to 1999. Richter dies, the Belmont line ends with him and the Morris clan have to step up to take their place.
This is how I see the 64 titles regarding their placement. Kind of like how none of the DBZ movies could have happened (aside from the 1st one with Pilaf, but I digress) but these are self-contained stories in a what-if scenario.
And yes, PoR did more harm than it did good. In itself, what it brought to the series, it was basically worthless.
Why does everything have to add up perfectly though? Part of the beauty of the older canon was where another piece of the story was going to fit into and what it meant. Take Legend of Zelda ALTTP for example, it was always a hindrance to the overall canon, because nobody could work out how Ganondorf could possess the entire Triforce. Yet it created so many theories from so many fans because they enjoyed the series so much. (And it's still probably the most iconic Zelda to this day) I think fans to an extent have done the same with CV.
POR's plot may not be perfect to some. I still see that it has much value. It explained the necessity of the Lecardes into the overall canon, it explained why there were so few - let's say - "Non-Belmonts" who could wield the VK. It brought in several new characters, previously unseen whose interactions with one another were decent. It brought the Death/Dracula and whip's memory battle which were 2 of the most memorable, including a new level of difficulty to metroidvania.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to say it's worthless.. Well each to their own.
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Talk about Stockholm Syndrome
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....Go back to your bong, hippie
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Why does everything have to add up perfectly though?
Because IGA intended it to add up perfectly, and introduced a clear sense of chronology into the series. PoR is specifically billed as a sequel to Bloodlines. As such it incorporates Bloodlines characters and plot points.
And it does so piss poorly. it introduces even more things in relation to Bloodlines, which did not need to exist, and have only complicated what was a simple story meant to tie the Castlevania series to the original Dracula by Stoker through nothing more than it's main character and concept of travel around europe.
Part of the beauty of the older canon was where another piece of the story was going to fit into and what it meant.
Before IGA things were still pretty damn clear. CV1 was preceeded by CV3, an origin story about the first Belmont to defeat Dracula, and the Gameboy games were simply another part of the grander story, fitting in wherever any dates allowed. Rondo was the latest Belmont at the time of his game's release, descendant of Simon. So on and So forth. Even games like Legends had a pretty clear cut place. Legends was a prequel to a prequel until IGA removed it from the timeline. Even with IGA's introduction there was still pretty clear concepts. SotN is a sequel to Rondo, taking place right after it, with Richter and everything. There's none of this "WHAT DOES IT MEEEEAN? WHERE DOES IT GO?" It was all very often pretty clear in the manual, usually in the form of, "this belmont, son of Simon..." or, "this belmont, the first belmont" or something other to describe more or less in between which belmonts they fit in.
Take Legend of Zelda ALTTP for example, it was always a hindrance to the overall canon, because nobody could work out how Ganondorf could possess the entire Triforce. Yet it created so many theories from so many fans because they enjoyed the series so much. (And it's still probably the most iconic Zelda to this day) I think fans to an extent have done the same with CV.
Legend of Zelda has no concrete canonical timeline though. Come even close to creating a proper timeline structure to LoZ and Nintendo will fucking assassinate you while you sleep. Castlevania has always had a very concrete timeline since day 2, when Simon's Quest came out. It wasnt some gaiden, some retelling, it was a direct sequel to the original. And CV3 after was a prequel to the original. so on and so forth I mentioned this already.
I still see that it has much value. It explained the necessity of the Lecardes into the overall canon,
The nessecity of the Lecardes was nothing more than a story reason for a gimmick, that gimmick being a boss fight. IGA's grand purpose for the Lecarde family was to give you a Richter boss fight. They needed no special purpose other than to be the backup to the VK. The Zero to The Belmont's X, the Luigi to Mario. Merely to complement each other and make it a team effort. IGA meanwhile, not only essentially killed both of Bloodlines protagonists for his own ORIGINAL CHARACTERS DO NOT STEAL descendants, but made the grand payoff of the Lecarde "special ritual" , this grand thing to unlock the true power of the whip, (a bullshit notion he invented) a boss fight with Richter. Oh boy how swell. More asset reuse. Because PoR wasn't already heavy enough in that department.
it explained why there were so few - let's say - "Non-Belmonts" who could wield the VK.
Did it need such a convoluted explanation though? It was simple enough as there is only 1 damn whip. Vampire Killer is a unique relic. Nothing else like it exists. So only one person at a time can wield it. The father passes it to the next of kin to succeed him. It has always been that simple. Morrises were related to the Belmonts, and the Whip landed in John's hands eventually. That simple. No need for any convoluted nonsensical curse that kills anyone who doesn't have a specific last name. I mean really. What determines a pure blood Belmont? There is no such thing, unless they are fucking their own sisters. The Morrises are therefore just as pure as the Belmonts, they only lack the last name. Don't tell me that The whip is fucking picky about who has what name, when they are still blood kin, and John Morris, has no doubt obtained the whip through proper inheritance.
It brought in several new characters
Not all for the better. Brauner is literally just an Olrox clone that fills the Nosferatu Vampire. And really> paintings? painting magic? really? Also, do the Desu Twins at all use the spear? I didn't think so. Jhonathan gets the spear. the desu twins are literally pointless outside of providing a Richter boss fight, and being bosses themselves.
previously unseen whose interactions with one another were decent.
Like who? The desu twins and Jhonathan and Charlotte were literally not born when John and Eric were on their adventure. What's this of unseen characters? NO new characters are ever "previously seen."
It brought the Death/Dracula and whip's memory battle which were 2 of the most memorable, including a new level of difficulty to metroidvania.
Most Death battles are memorable. Difficulty is subjective and dependant on skill and items. And the Whip memory is a worthless battle thrown in only as a way to reuse more sprites from rondo, and as an excuse to put Richter in the game So they have a bonus character mode.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to say it's worthless.. Well each to their own.
There is literally nothing worthwhile about PoR. It's art style is generic and sucks. It's character designsd are not particularly memorable,(though i do like Charlotte) and do not fit in with any general style of castlevania character design. And they most CERTAINLY do not fit within the context of the era. John and Eric, fit within their era. Johnathan leapt out of some shounen anime.
The game does NOTHING with it's potential WWII setting, And while Bloodlines made you travel all across the map, PoR substitutes this with paintings. PAINTINGS. All for the sake of keeping it a metroidvania and once again try and make that SotN gold roll in.
The story is a clusterfuck which introduces needless complications to the overall timeline. On that alone it's a stupid game. The asset reuse hit it's peak with this game too, with even bosses lifted from Dawn of Sorrow. which was not aided by the cheap art style making the game feel like evn more of a cheap cash in of the Bloodlines fame.
Also, it failed to actually include Eric or John as the bonus mode, instead opting for Richter and Maria. Because you know, Rondo is his favorite game to reuse assets from. That alone makes me upset. That Richter and Maria would be considered for a bonus character mode instead of the original two protagonists of the game this is a sequel to.
And that's all ive got to say about that...
Talk about Stockholm Syndrome
tell me about it.
....Go back to your bong, hippie
Wow, very mature response. I'm impressed. Thanks for proving his point.
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Mature responses? That's ironic.. How angry were you when you wrote that post, someone needs to chill the F out.
Zelda does have a concrete timeline, it's documented in Hyrule Historia.
In conclusion, games are supposed to be fun, if you're not having fun you're not doing it right. Maybe steer clear of those games.
That's all I'm going to say, I don't have to listen to some prepubescent f@!*head having a tantrum. Have a lovely day.
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PoR kinda fucked up alot of the Castlevania Mythos, first being that Bloodlines was never supposed to be a part of IGA's Canon.
Bloodlines is a sequel to Bram Stroker's Dracula, which isn't the same Dracula as IGA's Dracula.
The story would make more sense if PoR wasn't a Part of IGA's canon, but it's own game with own story, but heaven forbids IGA from makinbg his master timeline revolving around massive plotholes and a 1999 war....
while the game is fun, I believe it should have been just re-written to be it's own universe like CoTM, instead we get a budget sequel with a creatively bankrupt plot.
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Mature responses? That's ironic.. How angry were you when you wrote that post, someone needs to chill the F out.
It comes with the territory. I prefer to call it "fiery passion"
Zelda does have a concrete timeline, it's documented in Hyrule Historia.
news to me. I stand corrected. I thought Nintendo wasn't about the timeline when it came to Zelda?
In conclusion, games are supposed to be fun, if you're not having fun you're not doing it right. Maybe steer clear of those games.
I do. Doesn't mean I can't complain about them and why I find them unfun. also, something can be fun, and still have a terrible everything else. Terrible story, music, etc. (well maybe not music, that's pretty important...)
That's all I'm going to say, I don't have to listen to some prepubescent f@!*head having a tantrum. Have a lovely day.
Pot calling the kettle black, pal.
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Really? That's actually pretty cool. I forgot about this.
It was actually her grandfather, but whatevs:
Daniela: My Grandfather and I would always bake together. That man loved
sweets. Especially in the middle of a good, old-fashioned monster hunt.
Shanoa: Monster hunt? You mean--!?
Daniela: Nothing better than the view from atop the [Lighthouse] after an epic
battle.
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Bloodlines is a sequel to Bram Stroker's Dracula, which isn't the same Dracula as IGA's Dracula.
Have you actually read Bram Stoker's Dracula or at least seen the movie? I ask because what you're saying just isn't true. Bloodlines only loosely adapted small parts of that novel into the Castlevania universe.
If you accept that game as a sequel to Bram Stoker's Dracula within the canon of that book's world, you have to accept one pretty gigantic and nonsensical retcon regarding Quincey Morris and the final encounter with Dracula. Totally doesn't work.
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Yeah, Bloodlines' backstory indicates that Quincy was also using the whip at some point during the events of the book, and John watched him die.
I still don't see how PoR's story is making people collectively clench their butts. A non-Belmont can't use the whip constantly without dying, and since Quincy, John, and Jonathan were the only non-Belmonts to use it (and only John died from using it too much), it doesn't alter the original Castlevania mythos that much.
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Yeah, Bloodlines' backstory indicates that Quincey was also using the whip at some point during the events of the book, and John watched him die.
Quincey was killed by the Szgany who were trying to resurrect Dracula, his death had nothing to do with Quincey using the VK.
I vaguely remember the novel describes him as a hunter, at some point and he did have prior knowledge of vampirism.
I still don't see how PoR's story is making people collectively clench their butts. A non-Belmont can't use the whip constantly without dying, and since Quincey, John, and Jonathan were the only non-Belmonts to use it (and only John died from using it too much), it doesn't alter the original Castlevania mythos that much.
Actually it's implied in POR that eventually Jonathan will die, when he finds out the reason his father passed away.
Using it too much is kind of a vague explanation. Presumably, John would not have required the VK after Bloodlines (maybe he did but we're not shown this) yet he still perished.
It could be inferred that for someone to exert the necessary force to kill Count Dracula, one would need to make heavy use of the VK and while being a non-Belmont this would most likely cause death, which could be instant but it also could be over time. We're never shown Jonathan's death, but this is the most likely scenario of eventual death post-Drac/ Death fight because of what happened to John.
I agree it doesn't alter it that much. Even the including of Stoker's novel doesn't. Quincey is a character who's engulfed in mystery, doesn't seem to have relatives, never makes a journal entry, has this prior knowledge of the night, is referenced as a hunter at some point, and is the person who destroys Dracula. Aside from not explicitly being shown he used the VK (not to say he didn't have possession) he's basically just a strong and mysterious character.
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Quincey was killed by the Szgany who were trying to resurrect Dracula, his death had nothing to do with Quincey using the VK.
Yeah, I know it had nothing to do with the VK. Bloodlines' manual simply states that John and Eric watched Quincy die while fighting Dracula no less:
Finally, in 1897 Quincy Morris, a descendent of the House of Belmont, overcame great odds to defeat Dracula and send him to his eternal grave. Unfortunately since Quincy was so badly beaten in his battle with the Count, he lost his own life moments after plunging a wooden stake into Dracula's chest.
Quincy's legacy has continued, however. His son--John Morris--and John's childhood friend Eric Lecarde had witnessed the Quincy-Dracula showdown from the shadows. That scene changed their lives forever--as they grew older they swore to rid the planet of the evil creatures of the underworld.
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cvbl/game-castlevaniabl.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cvbl/game-castlevaniabl.htm)
Actually it's implied in POR that eventually Jonathan will die, when he finds out the reason his father passed away.
You gotta replay the game dude, it implies just the opposite:
Eric: Hm? You already unlocked the Vampire Killer?
Jonathan: Yep.
Eric: If you understand how your father felt, then it's best
not to use the whip after this battle ends.
Jonathan: Well, I'll do what I can. I prefer not to die young.
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PoR kinda fucked up alot of the Castlevania Mythos, first being that Bloodlines was never supposed to be a part of IGA's Canon.
Bloodlines is a sequel to Bram Stroker's Dracula, which isn't the same Dracula as IGA's Dracula.
Especially when IGA said it WAS. I think IGA's the only one to say what belongs in his canon and what doesn't. Either way, Stoker's Dracula is as vague as the CV Dracula(all CV depictions of Dracula). Besides, regardless of Stoker's story being different than CV lore, there was obviously an event within the CV canon that connected the two together, not unlike the various historical events that connect to the CV series. Was the CV version EXACTLY like the novel's events? Probably not. Still, is CV's depiction of WWI(and the events leading up to it, as in Elizabeth Bartley being responsible for the assassination of the Archduke) true to history? Who cares about the particulars. CV basically stated CV3's events were the ones leading up to Dracula's death(his historical death in 1476, in the CV universe, his "first death").
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You gotta replay the game dude, it implies just the opposite:
Love to but can't afford the time. I stand corrected, good thing he doesn't have to die.
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in poltrait of ruin Jonathan also indirectly references Quince, in one of the discussions he say "grandfather something something whip," i forget the exact wording but its there
he also say his fatjer John died because his wounds wouldnt heal after he defeating Dracula
in the timeline that came with the preorder materials with Por, for 1897 it says "Quinc Morris, belmont Decadent, keeps Dracula at bay." so it the only things Bram Stoker's novel & castlevania have in common is that Quincy used teh Holy Whip to defeat Matthias(not Gabrian), thats it. we dont know if Harker, van Helsing, Lucy or anybody was there or even exists in CV Reality. everything else pertaining to that event is pure speculation so dont let any1 else tell you guys & gals otherwise
about who can or cannot use teh whip, its just magic y curses to blame for all the mishaps in the cv world, nothing more nothing less but that is pretty obvius buy now
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Whoa Crisis! Are you typing via smart phone? This is the first time I saw your post with lots of typos. Or you're just trolling.
Anyway, as for the whip, I think the only ones who can use it properly are those who have undergone some sort of ritual (whether stated or implied) that allows the whip to recognize it's bearer.
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Anyway, as for the whip, I think the only ones who can use it properly are those who have undergone some sort of ritual (whether stated or implied) that allows the whip to recognize it's bearer.
Is this not the point to fighting the VK's memory in POR.
On another note, I like this concept purely because the VK contains Sara's soul, the whip of alchemy required a tainted soul who trusts its weilder. It makes logistical sense to have to face the whip's memory.
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At least we can all agree that the Bloodlines saga created more problems than it ever solved.
To be honest, Bloodlines should simply have been retconned. All Portrait of Ruin managed to do was to enlarge an already gaping plot hole; and now that OoE has actually built upon it, that makes three games that need to be weeded out for the canon to start making sense again -- unless a future game manages to tie up all of the CV canon's loose ends. I'm honestly more partial to the the latter option, but I'm not seeing that happen in the near future.
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look at all the shit IGA got when he retconned Legends, i can just imagine how the fanbase woulda reacted if he also cut bloodlines from the canon. people still hold grudges against him till this day
@Shiroi sorry i type from my iphone a lot when iam supposed to be "working" o.o;;
b-but indeed i also troll everybody here cuz a lot of ppl here are too uptight all the time
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At least we can all agree that the Bloodlines saga created more problems than it ever solved.
To be honest, Bloodlines should simply have been retconned. All Portrait of Ruin managed to do was to enlarge an already gaping plot hole; and now that OoE has actually built upon it, that makes three games that need to be weeded out for the canon to start making sense again -- unless a future game manages to tie up all of the CV canon's loose ends. I'm honestly more partial to the the latter option, but I'm not seeing that happen in the near future.
Why is there any need to retcon Bloodlines. It came BEFORE the whole 1999/Julius Belmont thing was even concieved, as well as SotN(hell, it even predates Legends, which WAS retconned, though came out banking on SotN considering it used the SotN designs of Alucard and Dracula as the basis for it's depictions).
That being said, the presence of the Morris clan within the CV canon isn't that much of a deal. ESPECIALLY what Bloodlines brought forth. It's what IGA wrote, as well as what was wrote with PoR that messes things up. Now, IGA wrote Julius Belmont to be the one who finally defeated Dracula in 1999, which contradicts that already established Morris clan being present in Bloodlines, BUT IGA came up with the idea that the Belmonts had to go into hiding until 1999, so naturally the Morris clan had to step in and take their place, being blood relatives. Note, at this point, IGA did NOT say the Morris clan was inferior to the Belmonts. For all we know, they could've been estranged from the family business over centuries, yet still harbored that latent power to fight against evil(while those of the main branch have been training for centuries and are primed for fighting evil, but due to what ever prevented them from touching the VK, they can't). Hell, he could've came up with a GOOD reason to explain everything without downgrading the power and importance of the Morris clan(hell, I could've). But then, we got PoR, which explains why the Morris clan is inferior to the main Belmont branch, and that's about it(story-wise, is doesn't offer much).
Call it one of many occasions that IGA dropped the ball. We could've gotten a great follow-up to Bloodlines that went more into depth regarding the Morris clan, their history, how they split off from the Belmonts and how they came back into the family business. Especially some more interesting ideas considering it took place during WWII, like the previous one took place during WWI, and had you running across Europe in the process. I think many of us just wanted something fitting of the great game that Bloodlines was. Other than that, while I love OoE, IGA dropped the ball regarding tackling WHY the Belmonts have to go into hiding. First hearing that, I always pictured something like the Belmonts being tainted to the point that they couldn't LITERALLY hold the VK, and it would take over a century to cleanse the main Belmont family line through generational meditation just so, eventually, a Belmont can be born again without the "taint" and can wield the VK. I pictured it some big conspiracy of Dracula's followers, so pissed off after all the defeats, to curse the main family to the point that they cannot wield their weapon(the only weapon capable of killing Dracula), hoping that this cripples them and allows a time period where Dracula CAN come back without a VK wielding Belmont to counter him. Of course, they don't count on the Morris clan, who the Belmont's contact(finding them in America), and call their asses to Europe to help stop Dracula while the main Belmonts seek a means to break this curse/taint. I know I rambled, but OoE only briefly brushes over that. We know something happened and the Belmonts were sent scattering throughout the countryside, and eventually you have to gather them to populate Wygol. LOL! Really not important. The story is almost as pointless as PoR, but it has the good case of being both a good game and not making you feel dumb over the whole "Morris clan is inferior".
With CV, games that don't contribute ANYTHING are looked upon with "meh, it's alright" type attitude, but ones that bring in sort've loathed concepts and ideas(PoR's "Morris clan is inferior", Legends' "Trevor is Alucard and Sonia's son, and Dracula's grandson") are pretty much scorned. I find that a bit funny. A game that does nothing new is held in higher regarnds that one that tries to push a new idea(well, in some cases).
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I think we could still get games to fill some of these plot holes. Maybe it's unlikely, because focus will probably be on the LoS timeline now, but it's not impossible. We'd need an "ideas man" though. Someone who could look at what we have (however messy it is or is not) and easily come up with multiple ideas how to make connections that work. And, I can't believe I'm saying it, but I don't think the ideas man should be too concerned with what fans think, if at all. There's too many of us! We can't agree! Inevitably, someone will be disappointed in the end result, so just let the ideas guy come up with all his ideas, and let him and the developing team pick and make the one they deem best. Then we can all play it (or not if we just hate it) and talk about it here!
But we need that ideas man! Maybe they have a Castlevania passion, or a gaming passion, or a mythology passion...but ideas! Tons of ideas! That's how we'll fill plot holes.
So says this CV fan anyway. :-)
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http://okymx.blogspot.com.au/2004/08/historia-de-la-familia-belmont.html (http://okymx.blogspot.com.au/2004/08/historia-de-la-familia-belmont.html)
Even though this is fanmade, this got me thinking...
I know it was implied that Trevor was Alucard's child, but couldn't they have just retconned that rather than retconning Legends as a whole? The ending is never proven conclusively, and even if Alucard shagged Sonia, Trevor doesn't necessarily have to be his kid. Even within the Belmont families (unless they have a one child policy) surely they choose the heir who is the most suitable for the VK, or failing that, the eldest child.. Does it really have to be a male? My comments are limited on this since I haven't played it in years, but it seems an odd choice to say that game is not part of the canon.
As for the previous comments to OOE, much as I love OOE it didn't add much to the overall canon, it was more of a Gaiden like COD (less so because at least Trevor was in that and it related to a well known event) though I thought it was a nice touch that the Belmont bloodline still aided in Dracula's destruction.
Regarding the Belmonts post-SOTN, one simple assumption could be that after Richter was mind-controlled by shaft, the Belmonts caught on that Dracula realised their direct bloodline was a hindrance. With no VK there would be almost nobody who was powerful enough to destroy Dracula, so the Belmonts simply vanished, maintaining their ways of training etc. Eventually somehow in 1999 they re-emerged, took ownership of the VK from the Morris clan and 1999 happens. There is one thing I never understood, 1999 happened but was it in Europe or Japan? Julius lost his memory until he returned to Castlevania in 2035.. Did Julius enter the Castle from Japan or from Europe? Presumably given AOS' intro the entrance to the Castle seems to be at the Hakuba shrine...
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Dracula the novel and Quincy Morris "keeping Dracula at bay" still fits pretty well within the overall timeline. I don't see why Bloodlines and the novel somehow break everything.
We don't know much about the Morris family. John is supposed to be Quincy's son right? Well, maybe Quincy was divorced? We don't know. (Unlikely given divorce is more modern I think, but still) all Bloodlines needs is to handwave or retcon the idea of Quincy having died a bachelor and you have a solid connection. He doesn't even need to use the whip. Who's to say John didn't inherit the whip right from the Belmonts when he came of age?
It's only PoR that really breaks Bloodlines. And only because it ruins the characters and story by complicating it needlessly. IGA tried too hard to make PoR deep when All it really needed to be was the son of John vs whatever. No need to change the roles of the Morris and Lecarde Families. Simple and sweet. Even if everything else about the game is bleh.
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Dracula the novel and Quincy Morris "keeping Dracula at bay" still fits pretty well within the overall timeline. I don't see why Bloodlines and the novel somehow break everything.
We don't know much about the Morris family. John is supposed to be Quincy's son right? Well, maybe Quincy was divorced? We don't know. (Unlikely given divorce is more modern I think, but still) all Bloodlines needs is to handwave or retcon the idea of Quincy having died a bachelor and you have a solid connection. He doesn't even need to use the whip. Who's to say John didn't inherit the whip right from the Belmonts when he came of age?
I agree, it doesn't break everything. Dracula>Bloodlines was always intended to remain in the canon.
On this note. The novel Dracula takes place in 1897, Bloodlines takes place 20 years later. John's description reads as follows
"Like all of his forefathers, he is wise in the ways of vampire slaying and is skilled with the legendary whip."
What Eric states in POR
"Eric: Because the Belmonts cannot touch the whip now. It is
predicted that Dracula will be revived in year 1999. I've
heard that the Belmonts must not touch the Vampire Killer
until then."
Since the Belmonts disappeared by the time OOE happens (early to mid 1800's) at that point they weren't using the VK, otherwise one of them could have faced Dracula rather than Shanoa using Dominus (which didn't happen, and their descendants were not fit to wield the VK). I believe it's fair to deduct that the Belmonts - after SOTN but before OOE - disappeared at which time they also relinquished the VK, as it wasn't going to be used by them from that point, until 1999.
Because of this, it does seem that Quincey probably had the VK in his possession at some point (even if not during the events of the novel Dracula) which John would eventually come to inherit. Furthermore, if all of John's forefathers used it as per Bloodlines' manual, then it's safe to assume that Quincey had possession at some point.
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There is one thing I never understood, 1999 happened but was it in Europe or Japan? Julius lost his memory until he returned to Castlevania in 2035.. Did Julius enter the Castle from Japan or from Europe? Presumably given AOS' intro the entrance to the Castle seems to be at the Hakuba shrine...
The battle of 1999 took place in Europe. Mina Hakuba tells Soma in-game about a sun ritual that was conducted in Europe for the purposes of sealing away Castlevania in the Eclipse.
Mina: "Normally we only conduct rituals in Japan but..."
Soma: "In 1999 a ritual was conducted in Europe."
This tells me that the Demon Castle War took place in Europe and not Japan. And since Castlevania's origins stem from its motherland (Romania) it only makes sense to think so. Everyone who appeared in Castlevania in AoS were present at the Hakuba Shrine in Japan during the Eclipse, at the time when it was predicted that Dracula would return. Graham was probably one of the first to enter Castlevania followed shortly after by Arikado (Alucard), Yoko and J (Julius). Hammer was under orders by his CO to investigate Castlevania since it's clear that the military was involved with the 1999 battle and wanted to confirm whether or not the threat was real. Mina and Soma would be the last ones to arrive.
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The thing is that Trevor Being Alucard's son is proably the only rational explanation of why it a male boy of a female Belmont carries the Belmont name. As while Alucard's last name is Farenheit (also a maternal name) he doesn't use it anymore since becoming Alucard. And personally I don't find the problem with the Belmonts being Alucard's (and so Dracula's) descent, it's cool. I liked that part before LoS.
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That one Gameboy game pretty much sums up that argument.
Everybody is kinda upset, because what Konomi did, was make a logical excuse for the Belmonts abilities, against Dracula. Looking at the original was a decent way to exploit that story and world of Dracula.
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I still don't care for that. LoS, it doesn't matter. That game is it's own thing. But the original canon, I was always more interested in the family feud thing. To me, I like the idea that the Belmonts and Dracula's connection ISN'T blood relation, but something different. Maybe even something personal(with out reverting to the basic Maury DNA test as being the answer). I have more facination with two feuding families, fighting for good and evil, and the Belmonts just happen to be super human(because there can be other powerful beings in the world that don't draw their power from Dracula).
Besides, it makes more sense, even with Legends, that the Belmonts are just born from a badass family considering Sonia's not a descendant of Alucard or Dracula, and she still kicks ass(she's able to defeat Dracula). One could obviously think that Sonia inherited her parents' prowess, and so on, generations before her. It's just a badass family, in general. And yeah, being descended from Dracula proves NOTHING because of Sonia herself. She's a testament to that.